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N1KF

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Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

For years I've been posting progress updates on my thread, checking for new reveals on the Discord server for EE!. But it's been silent for nearly three months now, and here's why.

Creative director for new EE, Satanya (or Musearys) has chosen to temporarily go inactive as a result of negativity and doubt surrounding EE!.

I hesitated to post this for a while, at the risk of becoming part of the problem Satanya is facing. Plenty of people have posted about why they see development as being too slow and I have nothing new to say in this area. Instead I want to talk about how the development team is interacting with the community, and what effect this has. I have hope that my message will provide a more sympathetic view from somebody who has spent many hours hyping up the new EE.

The Everybody Edits Blog, which remained the primary source for EE announcements for nearly a decade, has gone silent, and hasn't even mentioned that EEU's development is canned. Do you realize how much of an oversight that is? It took months for EEU's outdated message to be updated, and this shouldn't still be a problem.

The second source, the Official Everybody Edits Forums, is not used much. The development team posts nearly nothing on these boards unless directly asked. It's up to other users to post their stuff for them. The most recent teaser they posted was the Halloween smileys teaser posted in my thread mid-2021 IIRC. (correction: two announcement threads were made on 2021 December and 2022 March.)

The REAL source for information, the Discord server, is hard to find. Right now, can you find a public link? Where is it? There are many other problems with Discord, mainly being bloated with heavy restrictions on independence, privacy, advertising, data, appearance, and other things that aren't problems on message boards or blogs. Things that go against the independent-passion-project philosophy of new EE. But that's not the point of this post.

The reason why it bothers me is because people are misled into thinking the EE Forums and Blog are reliable sources of up-to-date information, when they aren't. They're missing like 95% of the info of the development, except when I decide to post it myself. I wasn't designated this role, and if I stopped I suspect people would be left in silence. I think that at the bare minimum, the EE dev team should put in the effort to keep EE relevant. Not by rushing development, or revealing things they aren't ready to, but by communicating reliably when they want to engage with fans.

I've made many friends in EE. Most were made and supported solely through EE, and now that EE is gone, I haven't talked to many of them in years. Some of the memories stick with me, while others fade together. Maybe they check back on these forums or the blog, but they'd see nothing. Who could possibly blame them if they abandoned EE entirely? In the past, no blog posts or announcements meant exactly what it looked like--nothing was happening. The game was abandoned in silence for an entire year in 2013, and it hurt EE for a very long time.

I want people to stick around, and by this I don't just mean the people looking for scraps of info reposted on the forums or looking for a Discord server that's hard to even find. I don't have a perfect solution to the problem Satanya has, but I do hope things can get better.

Edilights

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From: In your dreams.

Joined: 2019-01-27

Posts: 515

Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

(1)"Creative director for new EE, Satanya (or Musearys) has chosen to temporarily go inactive as a result of negativity and doubt surrounding EE!."

(2)"The REAL source for information, the Discord server, is hard to find. Right now, can you find a public link? Where is it? There are many other problems with Discord, mainly being bloated with heavy restrictions on independence, privacy, advertising, data, appearance, and other things that aren't problems on message boards or blogs. Things that go against the independent-passion-project philosophy of new EE."

(3&optional)"The second source, the Official Everybody Edits Forums, is not used much. The development team posts nearly nothing on these boards unless directly asked. It's up to other users to post their stuff for them.
Who could possibly blame them if they abandoned EE entirely? In the past, no blog posts or announcements meant exactly what it looked like--nothing was happening. The game was abandoned in silence for an entire year in 2013, and it hurt EE for a very long time."

In first statement(1) , I couldn't agree with you because the current director(I rather say owner instead) of EE haven't got an issue with the development or by staff & developers . The whole problem with this game , I might not be those are currently owning the game . Just think about lack of interest for the nearly (~62%)each player in this game [I didn't mean for the active players that would be ~14% . Rest of them may forget the game itself.]. It's not her fault for everything . You cannot criticise somebody that has involvement .(Are some of players capable to overburn the main executive ? The response should be too obvious .

On the other hand (2) , the EE staff won't give a public link due constant raids from other servers and low number of players.  The server itself has a controlled field than EE third-locked-door-party(The server itself would need to restart for a good reason from ending *these meaningless disputes*) and EEO server [I can't complain the gossips made by some shiny players].

In the 3rd . I cannot believe the result found only from 2013 mass. (What would happen if the bubble chat have been opened after 3 years of game (2010->2013) ? Hate speech , toxic complaints or worse expressing desires for trolling). The game wasn't abandoned by its creator . The community had a lack of responsibility to take control in developments.
Don't take it as my issues. But the reality seems to be clear now.

N1KF

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From: ဪဪဪဪဪ From: ဪဪဪဪဪ From: ဪဪဪဪဪ

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Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

In first statement(1) , I couldn't agree with you because the current director(I rather say owner instead) of EE haven't got an issue with the development or by staff & developers . The whole problem with this game , I might not be those are currently owning the game . Just think about lack of interest for the nearly (~62%)each player in this game [I didn't mean for the active players that would be ~14% . Rest of them may forget the game itself.]. It's not her fault for everything . You cannot criticise somebody that has involvement .(Are some of players capable to overburn the main executive ? The response should be too obvious .

In this thread I'm referring to the how the development team is communicating with the players. If lack of interest is a problem, it probably comes partially from the communication problem I'm referring to.

If Satanya chooses to take a break, that's fine with me. If she still wants teasers to be released, she could assign them to different team members. She doesn't have to be the sole PR person, and I think the development would benefit from having more people communicate instead of centralizing around one figure. I referred to Satanya as creative director because that's the role she appears to be taking right now.

On the other hand (2) , the EE staff won't give a public link due constant raids from other servers and low number of players.  The server itself has a controlled field than EE third-locked-door-party(The server itself would need to restart for a good reason from ending *these meaningless disputes*) and EEO server [I can't complain the gossips made by some shiny players].

If it's meant to be private, then that wasn't made clear to me. That arguably makes it even worse, because the communication is mostly exclusive to a private server. And it's not truly private because I go and post that stuff here without any issue.

I haven't seen any raids, but if that's true, then yeah I suppose some step would need to be taken to prevent that.

In the 3rd . I cannot believe the result found only from 2013 mass. (What would happen if the bubble chat have been opened after 3 years of game (2010->2013) ? Hate speech , toxic complaints or worse expressing desires for trolling). The game wasn't abandoned by its creator . The community had a lack of responsibility to take control in developments.

OK, I checked the "Back from the dead" blog post and it outright says the game wasn't abandoned. The company was overbooked, and took an entire year for them to even reassure us development would continue. It was left without updates or announcements for a year, which was still irresponsible, and had a huge effect on the player count and morale of the remaining players.

Joeyjoey65

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Joined: 2017-11-05

Posts: 397

Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

(1)"Creative director for new EE, Satanya (or Musearys) has chosen to temporarily go inactive as a result of negativity and doubt surrounding EE!."

(2)"The REAL source for information, the Discord server, is hard to find. Right now, can you find a public link? Where is it? There are many other problems with Discord, mainly being bloated with heavy restrictions on independence, privacy, advertising, data, appearance, and other things that aren't problems on message boards or blogs. Things that go against the independent-passion-project philosophy of new EE."

(3&optional)"The second source, the Official Everybody Edits Forums, is not used much. The development team posts nearly nothing on these boards unless directly asked. It's up to other users to post their stuff for them.
Who could possibly blame them if they abandoned EE entirely? In the past, no blog posts or announcements meant exactly what it looked like--nothing was happening. The game was abandoned in silence for an entire year in 2013, and it hurt EE for a very long time."

In first statement(1) , I couldn't agree with you because the current director(I rather say owner instead) of EE haven't got an issue with the development or by staff & developers . The whole problem with this game , I might not be those are currently owning the game . Just think about lack of interest for the nearly (~62%)each player in this game [I didn't mean for the active players that would be ~14% . Rest of them may forget the game itself.]. It's not her fault for everything . You cannot criticise somebody that has involvement .(Are some of players capable to overburn the main executive ? The response should be too obvious .

On the other hand (2) , the EE staff won't give a public link due constant raids from other servers and low number of players.  The server itself has a controlled field than EE third-locked-door-party(The server itself would need to restart for a good reason from ending *these meaningless disputes*) and EEO server [I can't complain the gossips made by some shiny players].

In the 3rd . I cannot believe the result found only from 2013 mass. (What would happen if the bubble chat have been opened after 3 years of game (2010->2013) ? Hate speech , toxic complaints or worse expressing desires for trolling). The game wasn't abandoned by its creator . The community had a lack of responsibility to take control in developments.
Don't take it as my issues. But the reality seems to be clear now.

The issue with the first statement is the lack of interaction with the community and staff as a whole, even from the middle of EE's release onward there's always been a massive disconnect and division with the players. The reasoning behind the toxicity and negativity is completely understandable to leave, but I feel it has something to do with how they handled development and chose to private some assets of the game until full release. People want to keep getting engaged with the game and the hype just isn't there anymore. Satanya and her team decided it was better off to keep graphics/sneak peaks of the game at bay inside their server kept from the eyes of people. There's plenty of games that show early versions, assets, etc and I don't think it is a negative attribute to do so.. If anything it brings hype, people were excited to see EEU sneak peeks from Bytearray's dev vlogs. Although I don't think it was a good idea either I get the standpoint, yet it feels like we've been left out and once again there's a disconnect going on. It was never the players' problem until it was when they're understandably upset at the lack of fulfillments made.

Second statement is that making the server private doesn't help their situation, there's no voice and hype occurring around the game and once they discover there's been a lack of content they'll undoubtedly go inactive as well until the game is released. I don't like the idea of keeping everything private and well kept, transparency is great. They're trying to wait until the content is finished, so we don't get disappointed with how EEU turned out, the promises made were all broken and trust went out the window. Except that I also feel the trust the staff had in us is not there either which is why me and many others were mad and left to EEO. I barely know them and so do they but human interaction and getting to know the community more is how you can make some decisions that are better off for everyone. Choosing to stay private is okay, most staff want to keep their identity private with the upcoming release of EE! but once again I feel like there's no bonds being made which not only makes the community a better place, but a better game as well when we're together. I think getting to know everyone’s side regardless if it’s negative is how you can decide something to please even minorities. Banning them, shutting them out of your site, and leaving doesn’t solve anything. I know you can’t please everyone either.

My general opinion on the last point is that I don't think it was ever part of the community's fault for the downfall of the game as even from back then it was suffering, staff chose to make some decisions without thinking twice that negatively impacted the game up to the present. The dead periods between transfer of ownership of EE and Mr Shoe's long vacation brought almost no updates to the game which caused players to get bored easily. Aka him throwing all his time into the new Lego Ninjago game. In fact the community almost never had much of a say of what got added to the game except from the ones closest to the developers especially during the end of EE's life. Aside the contests and campaigns. People were willing to give tons of thoughtful suggestions and well written posts but a lot were ignored and never heard from again. I think to do with the massive influx of drama and newer players the staff didn't have the same trust they had back <2013. Overall the negativity and frustration, lack of updates, and trust within the community ultimately led to its demise.

The new staff are unaware of the bonds and just haven't built the same trust as we had with the old community, which is fine it takes time but I feel like going on long periods of time away from the community doesn't help the situation either. Which is also the reason for the lack of interaction we've had over the past year and the fact they've decided to stay hidden isn't beneficial to the game. I get there's been a lot of drama, screwups from the past, and negativity that would arise if they decided to peep their heads out of the hole. I just feel like we aren't doing what EE was about back then. It is a new team after all though.

Satanya, and her team are trying to release a finished product with perfection and tons of ideas promised from the community but it’s a bit ambitious..? I mean even newly released games that were in development for years have some bugs. I believe they should stop trying to reach the highest of expectations because even back then there were thousands of players content with the few block packs and things EE had to offer.

And I understand that there's a war going on with the dev team. Nothing we can do about that but wait, excluding that I think the preparations until they return wasn't handled the best either. But it is what it is. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I just hope it would be worth waiting for after all these years.

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N1KF

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Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

Except that I also feel the trust the staff had in us is not there either which is why me and many others were mad and left to EEO.

That's a lot to consider, but yeah, I understand deciding to stick with EEO. It's a lot more certain that EEO will be available than EE! will. I think the transition from EE Flash could have been done a lot better, especially from Xenonetix.

I barely know them and so do they but human interaction and getting to know the community more is how you can make some decisions that are better off for everyone.

I'm partial to the staff because I've pretty great interactions with Satanya, and can say she can be very grateful towards those dedicated to following EE!. Which shouldn't be that impressive, but if everybody here is miserable then I guess it is. And Zoey2070 and Minimania are my friends and staff in the server but weirdly I don't even remember how they relate to EE!'s development. I suspect there are other people who've had good interactions as well, but as to how much this is considered trust I'm not entirely sure.

I get why somebody may feel out of place in the EE! server. It seems like a good vibes chat, so when I criticize the staff's actions there I feel like a party pooper.

NoNK

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Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

I want to thank everyone for posting in this thread and contributing to this forum. Most posts these days don't get a very high wordcount, and in fact there aren't many posts made on these forums at all. I've gone and wooted every post in this thread without reading them and I think everyone else should do the same. These forums remain a critical part of the community whether they are active or not.

N1KF

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From: ဪဪဪဪဪ From: ဪဪဪဪဪ From: ဪဪဪဪဪ

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Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

I want to thank everyone for posting in this thread and contributing to this forum. Most posts these days don't get a very high wordcount, and in fact there aren't many posts made on these forums at all. I've gone and wooted every post in this thread without reading them and I think everyone else should do the same. These forums remain a critical part of the community whether they are active or not.

Thank you NoNK, very cool!

Edilights

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From: In your dreams.

Joined: 2019-01-27

Posts: 515

Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

I want to thank everyone for posting in this thread and contributing to this forum. Most posts these days don't get a very high wordcount, and in fact there aren't many posts made on these forums at all. I've gone and wooted every post in this thread without reading them and I think everyone else should do the same. These forums remain a critical part of the community whether they are active or not.

Thanks , buddy ! You are cheering people up to their morale.

mutantdevle

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Joined: 2015-03-31

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Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

When Satanya became director of the game and asked me to be both the head moderator and a community manager for EE! I was effectively given 2 questions:

1: How will we keep the community engaged while they wait for the game's release?
2: How can we reduce toxicity within the community?

Our answer to the 2nd question was to ensure that the discord server was strictly moderated and to have these same stricter values when designing the EE! moderation system. I was never actively involved with the discord server, but I believe that the staff there have done a very good job of keeping toxicity out, with a few hiccups along the way. Even if a significant number of the old community look down on that server as somewhere too cringey and full of noobs to be taken seriously. Meanwhile, the concept and documentation for the EE! moderation system has been finished (pending tweaks) for a while now and I think it will do a good job of being harsh on those who intentionally cause trouble while offering chances for those who are less malicious but still rulebreaking to make positive changes. 

For the first question, we had many discussions in the GGRiD discord server where various members of the team suggested different ideas. Our initial approach was to try and have some kind of community engagement every single month. Whether that be a simple update post or something the community could actually contribute towards. We had staff updates, opportunities to provide feedback, staff interviews and the logo competition. We had lots more planned too - more competitions were discussed, staff interviews were initially going to be a regular segment, we wanted to share in-progress graphics in a more structured and frequent way. I've personally been sitting on a document containing applications to help beta read the moderation document for half a year.

That approach was exhausting because the creativity and time necessary to keep that up regularly was not doable at such an early stage in the project. But more importantly, it seemed that everything we did was just a beacon for toxicity. Whilst there was plenty of positivity that was appreciated, the amount of unconstructive negativity was not insignificant. And over the months that took its toll. It affected the mental health of many staff behind the scenes, in a few cases to a significant extent. And it didn't seem to matter if we could keep toxicity out of certain places because those sorts of people would always find a place to laugh about it together. Some of the things I've read that people have said have been absolutely vile. Those kinds of comments always found their way back to the team in one way or another. I'm generally of the mind that we should focus on the positives and ignore the negatives when they're not contributing anything useful - but that's easy for me to say when I'm not the one whose work is being hyperbolically scrutinised or am not the one being personally attacked.

Another idea to combat toxicity that was suggested in those initial discussions was to just starve the toxicity with a lack of anything to be toxic about. We didn't want to do this because that would involve sharing less and less which of course would also starve the people we would like to keep around of anything to get excited about. The counterargument to that was that we didn't need to retain the current community because we could just grow a new one once the game is released. Tbh, it was probably me who originally said that but I don't fully remember. But ultimately, we all knew that wasn't the way to go because, naturally, we'd want all our friends from EE to stay with us on our journey. However, it seemed that the less we shared with the community the happier we were. I remember dreading every time we were about to share something because I knew that it meant I'd need to spend a few hours each day following it trying to reassure the mental health of staff members and the concerns of the community - and at times it could be difficult to tell the difference between genuine community concerns and people just trying to be toxic. If I had to do that as consistently as was originally planned then I'd have quit this project long ago. And I know that Satanya feels the same way.

Overall, it became clearer and clearer to us that just not posting updates was healthier for us. We have now fully committed to the strategy of not even trying to retain the current community and to instead just grow a new one when EE! is released. It has even reached the point where I have been encouraging Satanya to take a break from the community and not share any news about the game for a while. I am currently of the belief that we shouldn't post any news at all until the game is ready for marketing. Whether Satanya does decide to share anything though is down to her; she likes to share details, show off graphics and tease plans for the future. It just becomes draining when people latch onto tiny details and criticise everything about it without offering anything constructive. The community just isn't big enough to drown out the people like that or balance it out with positivity. If everyone was as genuinely enthusiastic as N1KF is about the small stuff then we wouldn't have this problem. But it seems that for too many people, if the news isn't something big then they'll have something negative to say about it. And seeing that over and over again just isn't healthy.

I feel your pain. I want people to stick around too. We have already lost so many good people already who haven't stuck around through EE's turbulent times. To lose any more would be a huge shame. I've heard lots of stories of fun people I never got to meet because I didn't become socially active in EE until its later years. But ultimately, we have reached a point where it's no longer healthy for us to try and put the time, creativity and emotions into trying to keep those people. We've come to the conclusion that it's not our responsibility to try to keep those people - despite how much it feels like it should be and how much we'd ideally want it to be. And just coming to that conclusion gives me the clarity that trying to do things because we miss our old friends and wish they'd come back doesn't sound too healthy either. Right now, the harsh truth is that we do just want people to forget about EE! for a while. And if you don't want to do that, then all we ask is that you be patient, don't be toxic, and accept that we aren't trying to keep you entertained so you shouldn't expect that from us anymore.

But when EE! is eventually released, our hope is that people remember again and our old friends do come back - even if it takes them a few years. But if not, then EE! will be the perfect place for making new friends and new memories. Of course, it will be sad that not all of our old friends would join us. But I still like to think that everyone who has ever enjoyed EE is out there somewhere making new friends of their own.

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Minimania

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Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

```To add on to the above with my own personal experience, I was kind of hoping that the EEO modding scene and Project Modification would help keep us occupied during the transitional stage between EE being dead and EE! being released. But it's not as popular as I had hoped. In the end, it didn't didn't really accomplish that goal for most people, and it didn't really stifle any of the negativity either.

I released an update for Project M for Halloween, and it was absolutely massive! I couldn't have done it without some really amazing friends who were there to help me.

But it didn't really seem like too many people cared at the end of the day. I've started to wonder if my efforts have been wasted, and whenever I get around to making a new update, it will probably be small, really small. Actually, it's more than that, even. My friends are being assailed in DMs, getting sexually harassed, stalked, sent death threats. These are people I care a lot about, and I've begun to witness the lights leave their eyes. And no, I'm not kidding about any of those things.

Something like that has profound effects on a person. The color has faded from my life. This is also why I haven't been around much anymore, and Im sorry to my friends who had to learn that through this post. But at this point, all I can do is support the current policy. I'm tired of seeing my friends have to go through this.```

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Click the image to see my graphics suggestions, or here to play EE: Project M!

N1KF

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From: ဪဪဪဪဪ From: ဪဪဪဪဪ From: ဪဪဪဪဪ

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Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

So, as I understand it, the dev team is trying to keep a low-profile to avoid toxic backlash? I've seen some nastiness here and on the Discord server, but I didn't realize the problem was so bad.

I think crucial info and non-crucial teaser info are being mixed together, and being both thrown out. The fact that EEU has ended development and EE! has begun is crucial, but isn't mentioned on the blog. This a very simple, single fact, important for anybody who wishes to understand EE!'s development, and I suspect that any controversy from stating this fact has died out long ago.

If the harassment is happening on Discord, it may be better to rely on the forums and blog. In my experience live interactions get on my nerves more easily, though I haven't that kind of harassment. Maybe we'd get less of this here or on the blog? Having your own message board gives you more distance between messages, and more freedom to filter out users who abuse it. I suspect that would help, but I dunno how much.

If these things are being done privately, cutting off all private communications from untrusted people may help. People tempted to contact Staff privately may think twice before making it public to be scrutinized.

If the problem is so bad that none of the things above would work, then I don't know what solution there is.

Abiqi

Formerly Excoluss

From: Lithuania

Joined: 2016-03-22

Posts: 280

Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

Big respects to both Mutant and Minimania for actually opening up about this problem.. I could never imagine that a simple freaking game would actually drive people crazy up to such points.

It's like if the whole game's development went against the plan all because of the toxicity. Impatience is kids' problem really.. Do they all really believe that a small leak means game's development has stopped? Game is actually being worked on if there's a serious feature released to public? Where did this idea even come from?

Just remember that idiots make a small percentage of the whole community. Many people are still hyped up and actually waiting for you guys. More than sure even though they're silent, any kind of small detail you share actually excites them.
Keep up with the work, you've already put a lot of effort into the game.

---

Not today...

N1KF

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Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

Impatience is kids' problem really.. Do they all really believe that a small leak means game's development has stopped?

What confuses me is that it's so easy to just...do something else. There are so many creative outlets outside EE. And EEO is currently available, if you need it to be EE in particular. And if you want it online too, you can do that with Atilla's Everybody Edits Emulator. Invite five people to play and it'll be like 2020 all over again.

More than sure even though they're silent, any kind of small detail you share actually excites them.

True. If somebody's patiently waiting, they don't need to say something. If somebody's impatient, they'll say things they don't need to.

Minimania

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From: PbzvatFbba 13

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Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

If the problem is so bad that none of the things above would work, then I don't know what solution there is.

We've at this point already done all of those things. But the damage is done, you know? I don't like to dwell, but enough exposure to something that negative has a way of changing one's wiring. I'd call it trauma.

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Click the image to see my graphics suggestions, or here to play EE: Project M!

Core

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Joined: 2022-10-09

Posts: 53

Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

Too long didn't read.

On a real note, I agree with you entirely. Particularly, the part about how EE going a year in silence in 2013 caused many players to disappear, some choosing to just straight up not return. With the only information source being the EE! Discord and the one forum post on leaks, it's hard to know what's going on, or if anything is going on at all. Hell, there are staff in the EE!Disc who I don't think I've seen talk, ever, about anything. If the people involved in the creation of EE! were at the very least active once in a while and interacted with the community, even if it's just a couple of conversations about literally anything EE! or not EE!, it would at the very least create the illusion that the game is being worked on.

It's also a shame about Project M. Pretty much anyone who's in the EEO discord has seen the amount of effort that was put into it, but with how inactive the EE community is these days I can understand why it feels like your efforts were wasted. Maybe it wouldn't feel that way if more people cared for EEO, maybe it would, I don't know - and I do genuinely worry the exact thing is going to happen to EE!.

As for the idea that if the old players give up and don't return that you'll find new players... where are you finding these people, exactly? How can you guarantee that people will find EE! and enjoy it, when some of EEO's most dedicated players are turning their nose up at it? Come on, even the nerds who spent literal months on levels like Infinity Pain aren't interested anymore. The most masochistic bastards I know, and they have no interest. Yikes.

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Professional EE dumbarse, formerly known as Theorywork. Know me? Say hi!

Oubliette 2023 2024!

N1KF

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Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

The way I see it, is that the harassment isn't infinite. The staff team is large enough that it should either have somebody, or connections with somebody involved unaffected by the trauma who can help communicate basic messages.

It feels a bit bleak, to suggest that the blog can't have one single post saying "EEU is cancelled; EE! is being developed" without a flood of harassment. I would prefer not to believe this is the case, but I can't assure that.

I've done what I've can to spread info, and I haven't really faced harassment in EE for a very long time. Maybe my status as a regular user is all that prevents it.

N1KF

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From: ဪဪဪဪဪ From: ဪဪဪဪဪ From: ဪဪဪဪဪ

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Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

As for the idea that if the old players give up and don't return that you'll find new players... where are you finding these people, exactly? How can you guarantee that people will find EE! and enjoy it, when some of EEO's most dedicated players are turning their nose up at it? Come on, even the nerds who spent literal months on levels like Infinity Pain aren't interested anymore. The most masochistic bastards I know, and they have no interest. Yikes.

A while back it was mentioned that in that point of development, the new EE's physics are the same as EE Flash's. In addition, levels from EE Flash or EEU can be transferred to the new EE somehow.

If this remains the case, or otherwise close to being the case, then I'd be willing to guess that many EEO players would be willing to try the new EE. As a fan of EE Flash the biggest draw would be the support for old levels and gameplay, and it appears to be moving over. I dunno about graphics though. I can only hope EEF levels look good in the new EE.

Abiqi

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From: Lithuania

Joined: 2016-03-22

Posts: 280

Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

It feels a bit bleak, to suggest that the blog can't have one single post saying "EEU is cancelled; EE! is being developed" without a flood of harassment. I would prefer not to believe this is the case, but I can't assure that.

If EE's blog gets a rework, it's highly likely it'll be a success again. Blogging is still highly popular after all

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Not today...

Onjit

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Posts: 9,709

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Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

wait  theres other channels in the EE! server than the m channel?

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:.|:;

Tomahawk

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From: UK

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Posts: 2,847

Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

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The implication is there will be less toxicity within a fresh new playerbase once EE! is released. Is that likely?

Well, getting rid of jaded doomers will definitely help, but if EE! becomes popular, you can't fight the statistics: more voices = more negative comments. I see the necessity of shielding staff from abuse and prioritising development over PR at this stage, but I think game staff will need to grow thicker skins if they're in it for the long run.

Perhaps positive feedback (and positive cashflow) will balance out unconstructive criticism after release. Or perhaps this is the internet and you just gotta strap in and tough it out or otherwise ban everyone who offends you.

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Supah (Snow)

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From: Pen Island

Joined: 2020-09-17

Posts: 22

Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

I liked the little teasers that would be shown from time to time, they were more than means of raising hype, they helped me know that the project was still being worked on and cared about. However, I understand ceasing them if it means not having to put up with manchildren for the next year or so until the game is released.

That being said, I agree with what Tomahawk wrote. Even if EE!’s moderation system works perfectly, how will negativity be dealt with on other media sites once the game is released?

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Blackmask

Member

From: France

Joined: 2016-06-27

Posts: 199

Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

I was fine with them showing us little things such as smileys or block textures. I don't understand how can someone be dissatisfied with that. I mean, as long as there is progress no matter how small it is that's good

Kiraninja

Member

Joined: 2021-10-10

Posts: 59

Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

literally no one cares. lol

"yh- y- h but kira u r toxic!!!!! the game doesn't need toxicity in any way shape or form at it could potentially hurt their mental state."

Satanya being the owner has done a horrible job at keeping in touch with the community apart from her emotional outbursts from time to time, there's nothing relevant being said tbh

The real issue is how they think it's ok to sit there and lie to everyone and then lash out on the community. Nothing we're not used to though.

Meanwhile, let's all enjoy the disgusting moths being posted in their discord server as proof of their very real progress

mutantdevle

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Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

I agree that the blog needs an official ending mentioning the cancellation of EEU and a link to where more information can be found. I agree that the discord should be linked more visibly on the forums and on the EE website itself. I also think we should make an update post on the forums that is informative and officially states that we do not feel like we owe any more updates to the community until we are ready to market the game. I will be sure to discuss all of those things with Satanya at some point. But while I am glad these points have been raised, for now, it is not a priority.

and I suspect that any controversy from stating this fact has died out long ago.

The problem isn't that anything we do or say is controversial. It's that if we do or say anything, there is intense toxic scrutiny from a certain very vocal minority of the community. Any time we show the slightest bit of activity, if it isn't exactly what they want from us, then it's awful. I fully expect that even so much as updating the blog will face scrutiny from these people. I even expect that the things that Mini and I have said in this thread alone will be something I see jokes about in a few days/weeks.

If these things are being done privately, cutting off all private communications from untrusted people may help.

This would be a sad and depressing way to live your virtual life. I don't think it's worth it to cut off the potential to make connections with new people, especially if you are someone who is involved with numerous communities, just because of a few toxic people.

Just remember that idiots make a small percentage of the whole community. Many people are still hyped up and actually waiting for you guys. More than sure even though they're silent, any kind of small detail you share actually excites them.
Keep up with the work, you've already put a lot of effort into the game.

It is appreciated to see and hear comments like this. But the problem is that the small percentage is loud and vile. Our community is not big enough for their negativity to be insignificant or drowned out.

If the people involved in the creation of EE! were at the very least active once in a while and interacted with the community, even if it's just a couple of conversations about literally anything EE! or not EE!, it would at the very least create the illusion that the game is being worked on.

This is exactly what Satanya's approach to the discord has been for a while. She very much enjoys just chatting to the community about random stuff and teasing details every now and then. But again, certain people would always respond to that negatively because it is something other than a major update. There is also a notable portion of the community that has ridiculed the way that Satanya, and other active staff members in the discord, like to express themselves and have fun in conversation. These people aren't even necessarily toxic, but their comments alongside the usual toxicity just contribute to the feeling of unwantedness. It's just a shame that people feel the need to spoil other people's fun just because it's being had in a way that does not appeal to them.

How can you guarantee that people will find EE! and enjoy it, when some of EEO's most dedicated players are turning their nose up at it?

There's never been a guarantee of anything. But we have the ability to finance marketing of the game properly which is likely to reach a new audience. I don't agree that just because veterans of EE are not interested in EE! does not mean that new people won't be. Our intention is that the quality of the game will speak for itself. And the quality of the game is not something that can be criticised yet because it does not exist - yet there are some veterans that express criticism of that anyway and it gets tiring to see.

And on the topic of veterans turning their noses up at EE!, I strongly believe that nostalgia is something that fuels a lot of the toxicity. People want EE back. But the only way you'll ever get EE back is if you can reverse time. The expectation is impossible. EE! is not going to be EE. It's going to be something new. Something that isn't stuck in nostalgia and instead uses the charm and concept of EE to entice the hearts of new people. New people who will create new memories and new things to eventually become nostalgic about. All within a modern and ethical video game landscape. We want as many people to join us on that journey as possible. But we're not going to force people to join us or do anything that makes the journey overall less enjoyable. Undoubtedly, there will definitely be some who enjoy EEO more than EE!. And that's okay.

The staff team is large enough that it should either have somebody, or connections with somebody involved unaffected by the trauma who can help communicate basic messages.

I guess that would be me. I don't have any personal trauma with the community, I've just seen how it affects others. And I'm quite good at taking criticism and ignoring toxicity in every aspect of my life so I don't expect anything that anyone says in the community to affect me seriously. But my issue is that I simply don't have the time. EE! is still a passion project for everyone involved and I have a job that keeps me very busy. I suppose I would have the time to make an update post every month, but most of those posts would either just be "nothing significant to report" or bad news, with most of the good news being that the bad news is over, repeated in a cycle - and repeated bad news would 100% make things worse. So instead, I'd need to do something creative each month for the updates to be meaningful. And as Mini has explained, being creative when it doesn't feel like it's being appreciated is exhausting. I've definitely burnt out on projects before because the target audience didn't feel large enough. Besides, I know that even if I - or anyone else - was the one posting updates, a large part of the most toxic criticism and harassment would still make its way back to Satanya simply because she is the one seen as in charge.

If EE's blog gets a rework, it's highly likely it'll be a success again. Blogging is still highly popular after all

I'd also like to see something like the blog return. It'd likely be a new blog though rather than a continuation of the old one. And I wouldn't want to see it return until the game was released.

The implication is there will be less toxicity within a fresh new playerbase once EE! is released. Is that likely?

Well, getting rid of jaded doomers will definitely help, but if EE! becomes popular, you can't fight the statistics: more voices = more negative comments. I see the necessity of shielding staff from abuse and prioritising development over PR at this stage, but I think game staff will need to grow thicker skins if they're in it for the long run.

Perhaps positive feedback (and positive cashflow) will balance out unconstructive criticism after release. Or perhaps this is the internet and you just gotta strap in and tough it out or otherwise ban everyone who offends you.

The problem isn't that there's negativity. That's to be expected. As you say, this is the internet and toxicity will always be here. But the key issue is that the ratio of positivity to toxicity is too large in the current community. The negative voices are too loud right now. EE's past has been problematic and a breeding ground for toxicity. We are still feeling the effects of that. If our community was to grow, it would be with new people who don't share that trauma. The number of positive voices joining will easily overpower the new negative ones. In a community as small as ours, the toxic minority does not FEEL like a minority, despite how much we can remind ourselves that they are. But with a larger community, it will be much easier to feel like the negativity comes from a minority when there is so much more positivity to drown it out.

EDIT: Kira's post exemplifies many of the points I have made here. Besides this edit acknowledging it, I would encourage everyone in this thread to ignore it and not respond because it adds nothing of value to this discussion.

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Kiraninja

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Joined: 2021-10-10

Posts: 59

Re: Why the EE development is communicated poorly, and how it hurts us.

EDIT: Kira's post exemplifies many of the points I have made here. Besides this edit acknowledging it, I would encourage everyone in this thread to ignore it and not respond because it adds nothing of value to this discussion.

actually u bring nothing of value either except a wall of text no one is going to read