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#1 2020-11-28 17:44:11, last edited by Minisaurus (2020-12-06 00:08:37)

Minisaurus
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Dear Staff, get a lawyer

The staff is right now discarding EE graphics because of the fear of being sued by Mario or someone else because of the similarity with their graphics.

These are all just speculations, and not based in any actual law or even a past threat by anyone.

Staff I suggest to get a lawyer to give a legit and unbiased answer if it is safe to remake EE graphics to EEU.

EDIT: The previous proposition has been discarded, the current proposition is to replace the stolen graphics.

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#2 2020-11-28 18:09:49

John
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

Minisaurus wrote:

the fear of being sued by Mario

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#3 2020-11-28 18:10:31

mutantdevle
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

We can't afford a lawyer lol. Therefore, it is better to play it safe by distancing ourselves from the Mario and Facebook graphics. All original content in EE should be safe to copy into EEU.

Thankfully, the community has proven reliable in informing us of various legal things we have to abide by. Eg, just before you posted this, LukeM was telling John about GDPR.

I think it's likely that a lawyer for the game will only be acquired if the game ever finds itself in legal trouble.


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#4 2020-11-28 20:54:27

N1KF
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

mutantdevle wrote:

We can't afford a lawyer lol. Therefore, it is better to play it safe by distancing ourselves from the Mario and Facebook graphics. All original content in EE should be safe to copy into EEU.

Minisaurus is just asking for is a lawyer to answer the question. Are you sure you can't afford that?

Ryan Morrison, video game attorney has this to say:

The biggest trap [indie groups/companies should avoid when starting up] is thinking they're on their own. Many attorneys, not just myself, offer free consultations and will walk you through the steps on going from a hobbyist to a true developer.


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#5 2020-11-28 21:17:38

NorwegianboyEE
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

With how tyrannical Nintendo is with their copyright i think it's an perfectly reasonable fear to have.


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#6 2020-11-28 21:37:40

N1KF
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

NorwegianboyEE wrote:

With how tyrannical Nintendo is with their copyright i think it's an perfectly reasonable fear to have.

From what I know, much of Nintendo's tyranny comes from remakes or YouTube video games of their own games. Reusing their own assets is fine to some extent as they approve of Undertale which many say sampled Earthbound's soundtrack. (An EE staff member challenged me on this claim, but this sample list seems pretty precise.) Everybody Edits is a bit different from Undertale of course but I don't know of any other comparisons here.


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#7 2020-11-28 22:16:05

NorwegianboyEE
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

Then again. Flappy Bird is just mario pipes, and i don’t think they had legal trouble.


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#8 2020-11-28 22:22:03

Joeyjoey65
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

just imagine all of the attention eeu would get if they got sued by nintendo, yes good

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#9 2020-11-28 23:13:25, last edited by Minisaurus (2020-11-28 23:20:47)

Minisaurus
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

mutantdevle wrote:

We can't afford a lawyer lol.

This shows how little the staff know of how a lawyer works and it is pretty disappointing.

I mean, I wonder if they know anything about laws at all lol, let me explain it to you, you don´t have to pay a lawyer to provide legal advice, not at all, you just go to a University for example that offers law guidance, and by so the staff can get answered all their legal questions.

So I really want to believe that not asking a lawyer is because the staff is ignorant of how to do so and not because they don´t want those important questions to be answered, that would be the ultimate shame.

If the staff truly care for the game they will get legal advice from a lawyer, if not then they are really playing dumb or simply don´t care for the game.

And John, your professionalism is impressive, you take the community feedback very thoroughly as always, can´t expect less from you.

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#10 2020-11-28 23:21:24, last edited by Phinarose (2020-11-28 23:23:13)

Phinarose
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

I now declare myself as the EE staff lawyer. Give me your money so I can give you 10/10 representation in court.  //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/smile


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#11 2020-11-28 23:23:23, last edited by Minisaurus (2020-11-28 23:24:08)

Minisaurus
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

Phinarose wrote:

I now declare myself the EE staff lawyer. Give me your money so I can give you 10/10 representation in court.  //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/smile

Thanks god, as the staff don´t want to get legal advice from a laywer, they pretty much are destinated to be sued eventually, thanks Phina, you are our saviour.

#12 2020-11-28 23:32:29

2B55B5G TNG
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Joined: 2016-08-27
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

im unsure whether this is a joke or not


sorrow / if you somehow wanna find my worlds on ArchivEE, search the name 2bisniekitastan, changed my name as a joke and couldn’t change it back

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#13 2020-11-28 23:44:35, last edited by mutantdevle (2020-11-29 00:05:16)

mutantdevle
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

Minisaurus wrote:

This shows how little the staff know of how a lawyer works and it is pretty disappointing.

I mean, I wonder if they know anything about laws at all lol

My comment does not reflect the understanding of the whole staff, just mine. As one of the youngest members, I'm certain most of them know a lot more about the legal stuff than I do.



Edit: I should probably get better at clearly distinguishing what is my personal point of view and what I'm saying on behalf of the staff team.


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#14 2020-11-28 23:50:56, last edited by N1KF (2020-11-28 23:56:55)

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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

Minisaurus wrote:

This shows how little the staff know of how a lawyer works and it is pretty disappointing.

I mean, I wonder if they know anything about laws at all lol, let me explain it to you, you don´t have to pay a lawyer to provide legal advice, not at all, you just go to a University for example that offers law guidance, and by so the staff can get answered all their legal questions.

I have to wonder how much the staff actually know about the industry they're working in. It seems like the ee staff bubble exclusively has people working as insiders for the community, which has its benefits, but doesn't help the games to appeal to those who don't "get" it. They're pretty much all artists, programmers, and moderators working for themselves until they reach some goal of perfection.

I've spent hours reading articles and listening to talks from actually experienced game developers, and I feel like I'm getting a lot more info than the staff have ever expressed knowing since Chris Benjaminsen's glorious reign. Even mutantdevle's statement shows a lack of consideration for anything outside the EE safety bubble. Maybe the staff know what they're doing and they haven't unleashed their full power, but they have yet to show it.

edit: This post was written before I saw mutantdevle's previous post, under the assumption that he was representing the staff team in general. Still, it goes to show how little brainstorming the general community has done in expanding the player base of EE.


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#15 2020-11-29 04:19:41, last edited by Minimania (2020-11-29 04:37:34)

Minimania
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

Semi-related but I do believe Mutant has his own dev studio, and I'm also helping to work on another game as well. Not that it matters too much but eh

PS. Copying the non-infringing graphics from EE to EEU wouldn't be a problem. And if it really becomes a huge problem, I already have a replacement for all of the offending blocks on my graphics page.


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#16 2020-11-29 05:22:55

mutantdevle
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

Minimania wrote:

I do believe Mutant has his own dev studio

Well, 'game studio' is just part of the naming convention :3 But I did/do intend to create and commercially release my own video games at some point in the future and have set up various social media to support that. But it's been so long since I've made any major progress that I'm not so sure I have the right to call myself a programmer anymore //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/tongue I studied video game development in college so I have a strong understanding of things like how the video game industry itself works, it's ethics, and what makes good/bad game design. But, in hindsight quite strangely, it didn't cover much legal stuff. Though I guess that's because the course looked at game development in general rather than the specific process any given type of game or company would have to go through. My only real knowledge of legal stuff would be the research I did into what I needed to do when setting up my brand.


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#17 2020-11-29 05:58:26

John
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

Sorry - I didn't know this was an actual suggestion, here's my thoughts.
Let's say I have a friend, Jimmy who's a new, inexperienced lawyer and is offering free a consultation. I decide to ask for his advice about our lovely smiley face game because we don't have enough money to interest a larger firm.
As a result, I ask Jimmy following: "Hi Jimmy, the previous owner of this game that I'm a developer for stole assets from Nintendo, and on the new version of the game we would like to use these same assets. Would this be okay?"
Jimmy says: "Well of course! You wouldn't be legally liable due to the fact that you're not the one who stole them in the first place!" - which is poor advice, but let's say we take it.
A few years later, Nintendo's contracted law firm shows at Xenonetix's doorstep saying that we stole their assets and we need to pay them.
Xenonetix, shocked, says: "But Jimmy the lawyer said it's okay!"

Next: Everybody Edits is like actually dead

Why did this happen?
The inexperienced lawyer isn't the one who committed the crime and isn't legally liable, Everybody Edits is. So with that in mind, is it really worth to sacrifice the future of this game and community just so we can use a few blocks stolen from Nintendo? I personally don't think so. The point is hiring a bad lawyer is equivalent to no lawyer at all, and having a "better safe than sorry attitude" in this instance is a good thing. This has happened to someone that I know, so I personally am very careful about things like this!




Minisaurus wrote:

And John, your professionalism is impressive, you take the community feedback very thoroughly as always, can´t expect less from you.

Thanks for the compliment! I try to read almost every post - especially in Game Suggestions, Questions and Answers, and Bug Reports. I honestly thought your post was a joke - sorry!

Have a good day, thanks!

John
Everybody Edits Staff
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#18 2020-11-29 06:32:38

Joeyjoey65
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

John wrote:

lol

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#19 2020-11-29 07:45:47, last edited by Minisaurus (2020-11-29 08:01:22)

Minisaurus
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

Answering to John, I hope that asking an unexperted lawyer called Jimmy was a joke, if the staff is truly going to ask Jimmy, then the staff gonna be in big troubles lol. Paying a lawyer is not a thing for the staff and paying Jimmy must not be a thing either.

Any University won´t let students or unexperted lawyers to provide legal advices, usually lawyer professors of that university do so, and they actually might extend your question to other lawyers out there that have tons of experience in specific areas of law, so it is a big group of specialized lawyers who would be looking to give you the most accurate and legally effective answer/suggestion/advice.
There might be other ways to approach to excellent and specialized lawyers capacitated to attend the staff questions for free, but searching for that might be quite hard (and may fail because of it).

Not quite sure who in the staff is capacitated to formulate those important questions, or if someone in the staff is actually capacitated to know to who ask those questions, it seems that nobody in the staff know how to approach to lawyers, this looks seriously bad for the game future...

#20 2020-11-29 08:14:33, last edited by N1KF (2020-11-29 08:18:50)

N1KF
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

It seems like Minisaurus has every part of EE covered...their posts may be dry but Minisaurus is probably the best at getting the community to brainstorm and really think and talk about EE critically. One of the best posters on the forum imo

John wrote:

is it really worth to sacrifice the future of this game and community just so we can use a few blocks stolen from Nintendo? I personally don't think so. The point is hiring a bad lawyer is equivalent to no lawyer at all, and having a "better safe than sorry attitude" in this instance is a good thing. This has happened to someone that I know, so I personally am very careful about things like this!

I won't go and defend the Grass and Metal blocks, as those should definitely be carefully redesigned, even for just EEO imo. The Metal blocks look unfitting in EE because they're missing outlines, and they don't even use that to its advantage by tiling well like Pirate, Marble, or Construction do. Grass is a bit better though.

That said, many of the "stolen" blocks aren't as obvious copies, such as the Brick and Basic blocks. For the full context of this topic, you need to see this post where Minisaurus calls out the Basic and Brick packs:

Minisaurus wrote:

EE staff is ashamed of how similar are those to mario bricks, don´t expect them to be added.

https://youtu.be/SmTOu9G7tbw

(Just watch the first minute lol (0:50-1:00))

EEU basic blocks were replaced without the dots in the corners for the same reason.
There is other graphics in EE that won´t be added for the same "copyright" reason.

In addition to Minisaurus's claim, here's a quote from ByteArray that also shows another reason the Basic blocks were changed:

ByteArray wrote:

I understand your concerns, but I think Alex did a good job with the basic blocks. To me, they retain what's good about the originals while being completely original.

[...]

It's not that we're going for realism, we just want these "core" blocks of the game to be as versatile as possible. Some of the later blocks will certainly have a more quirky design.


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#21 2020-11-29 11:36:56

peace
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

john but is it really a freaking porblem i think th ebricks existed for liek 10 years already in EE and no porblem arrised also

John wrote:

Jimmy says: "Well of course! You wouldn't be legally liable due to the fact that you're not the one who stole them in the first place!" - which is poor advice, but let's say we take it.

ofcourse you wouldnt take this poor **** advice you would ask mroe questions like but the previous owner sotle them an dnow the company is ours isnt it true that WE hold responsebility for our assets now? or you could actualy show what you mean rather then syaing you sotle assets form nintendo and facebook


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thanks hg for making this much better and ty for my avatar aswell

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#22 2020-11-29 20:06:54

N1KF
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

peace wrote:

john but is it really a freaking porblem i think th ebricks existed for liek 10 years already in EE and no porblem arrised

EE never went mainstream, though. With all the content out there on the internet, it's very likely it never caught the eye of Nintendo's or Facebook's legal teams. If EE went mainstream, like getting into a major gaming console's digital store, there would be more reason for Nintendo or Facebook to take it seriously.


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#23 2020-11-29 22:47:36, last edited by Minisaurus (2020-11-29 22:48:25)

Minisaurus
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

N1KF wrote:

like getting into a major gaming console's digital store, there would be more reason for Nintendo or Facebook to take it seriously.

But this what I really dislike, everything the community and the staff do is make speculations of what could happen, but there is no real proof of that statements, this is all a fabricated bubble of fear that won´t lead the game anywhere.
Having those questions solved and answered whenever it is needed by a lawyer(s) is important to keep the game really safe.

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#24 2020-11-29 23:25:08

John
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Joined: 2019-01-11
Posts: 1,952

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

Minisaurus wrote:

Having those questions solved and answered whenever it is needed by a lawyer(s) is important to keep the game really safe.

The best way to keep the game safe is to not use knowingly stolen assets at all.


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#25 2020-11-30 00:22:40, last edited by Minisaurus (2020-12-07 13:23:43)

Minisaurus
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Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

John wrote:

The best way to keep the game safe is to not use knowingly stolen assets at all.

And who better to decide that than a law expert, the staff is completely unaware of what is and what is not "stolen assets"

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