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#1 Re: Game Discussion » Regarding the data breach » 2019-03-25 15:29:24

LukeM wrote:
2B55B5G TNG wrote:

Okay. What if the hackers plan to attack again, what will you do?

We've made sure that in the meantime while we fix this no private information is being stored in the database, so all of the data they could extract is either public anyway, or internal data we don't really care about being accessed (the only time this is anywhere near important is leading up to an update or something)

How about forcing a strong random password on all accounts and sending reactivation links to all users?
Small, but significant..

#2 Re: Game Discussion » Regarding the data breach » 2019-03-25 13:38:59

LukeM wrote:
TheSource85 wrote:

"the only logical conclusion"... I love those kind of statements.. It's in the same lane as assumptions and you all know well, assumptions are the mother of all f*ck-ups.. Please... Just.. You know.. DON'T!
If you're not able to prove your 'logic', it can never EVER apply, because its foundation is based on things like hopes, wishes, fairytales, magic, probably some Walt Disney Princesses, pure assumptions (which are based on the maximum capability of the people making those assumptions.. they're probably calling it experience or something) and other senseless stuff..

Perhaps in stead of trying to keep all relevant data to yourselves and trying to get everyone off your back by stating wall-of-text-like nonsense, you could make public what you've found, what you've done, what your thought processes were and what is actually being done to prevent this.
And I'm not even talking about legal stuff.. Some people mentioned GDPR before. That's just 1 of the many legal documents present on the great big Internetz regarding the security of personal data.
If you're offering a 3rd party solution, you are still responsible to your clients.. That 3rd party is responsible to you and you need to be absolutely sure that your client data is secure..
If you're not sure, then the Only option is to not use that 3rd party thing and if you continue using it: YOU are legally at fault, no matter how much you point your finger to said 3rd party..

Firstly, we know about all the legal stuff, we're not trying to suggest that we don't need to follow the laws because it was PlayerIO that allowed the attack to happen, we will continue to take this seriously and will do everything we're required to do.

As for the proof stuff, logic can be proven, yes, but science can't be. The whole field of science is trying to find the conclusion that fits the data you have the best, which is what we've done. The hypothesis we have works; It perfectly explain what the attacker is able to do, and we've gone ahead and performed one of these attacks on our development server to show this. I may be taking the word 'prove' more seriously than some other people, and its likely that others would have claimed that they had proven that this was how the attack was performed at this point, but that would technically be a false claim so we're not going to make it.

We want to reveal more information about the attack, but we really can't at this point. If we gave out more information before we've ensured that the vulnerability is fixed we'd be putting ourselves in even more danger of attack, and I think we can all agree that thats not a good idea //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/tongue

XxAtillaxX wrote:

I don't think you quite understand, Luke. If an attacker has remote access to one or more of your developers workstations then changing passwords would be completely ineffectual in preventing future attacks.

But removing permissions would. Performing one of these attacks on the EE servers is now impossible from a developer account, and has been since before the last time they modified the database. Xenonetix has even been doing all management from a different computer as we can't remove his permissions, so you can trust us when we say that we've done all we can to narrow down the number of ways the attacks could have been performed.

So.. You're not even sure it's fixed yet //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/neutral
Way to publicize the system is still vulnerable.. @Hackers: You just got the go-ahead! Well.. Not literally, but you could translate it that way //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/tongue

Dude! Just.. I need to be sure that my data in your system is safe.. Is it? Can you provide proof for that? Can you also tell me (under the rules of the new GDPR law) who has and had access to my personal data?
If not, I am allowed to claim you delete everything related to my personal data, in Every system you have, including backups, IP logs, you name it.. Luckily you don't have to prove it if we ever get to that point, but if my data somehow still leaked after that, you lied and that means good times for my wallet.. (hypothetically).
Oh right, and if I'm allowed: Everyone is!

Just a quick note.. Will you stop the science can't be proven stuff.. The more you say it, the more rediculous it gets.. I know science, I know how it works, don't presume/assume I don't..
Science works on the principle of creating a theory and trying your best to disprove it, while others join in. If nobody is able to disprove it, the conclusion is (until a time it can be disproven) considered a proven fact. Yay science!

I'm not talking about science or logic: I'm talking about data. (no Star Trek vs. Star Wars jokes here.. that's just too easy)

Okay, so you think you've done enough to combat the issue.. Or at least you've done stuff so the issue can eventually be combatted.. Well, good for you.. Now disprove it, or let someone else do it! (@Hackers.. you're queue //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/tongue )

#3 Re: Game Discussion » Regarding the data breach » 2019-03-25 13:01:04

LukeM wrote:

(Mostly in response to Atilla, but also TheSource):

We have done several investigations into how the attacks could have been performed, and the only logical conclusion is the one that we've made (that they are to blame for the things that we've blamed them for).

That said, we are not suggesting that the entirety of PlayerIO (or that Henrik) is compromised, and I'd strongly advise against extrapolating anything like this from the claims we've made until we release further information.

We may not have 100% proof that this is the how the attacks were performed, but thats next to impossible without some miracle like the attacker actively giving us evidence to prove how they performed the attack, and even then it would be difficult to prove that its not fabricated...

However, the scientific method is what you use in situations like this, and although it can't be used to prove things (nothing in science is, or can ever be, proven), it can be used as VERY good evidence that something is true. We first made our current hypothesis for how the attacks are performed very early on in the process, and we've shown that it does explain every single piece of evidence we've gathered so far, to the extent that we've even performed one of these attacks ourselves on one of our development servers, which is enough to convince all of us beyond any doubt that it is what the attacker is doing.

So sorry, we're not able to prove anything conclusively, but I hope that explaining what evidence we have and our method that brought us to these conclusions will help convince you that what we are saying is true.

Well, that's a clear way of putting a sign up saying: Back off people, we got this! (which is a highly debatable thing right now)...

"the only logical conclusion"... I love those kind of statements.. It's in the same lane as assumptions and you all know well, assumptions are the mother of all f*ck-ups.. Please... Just.. You know.. DON'T!
If you're not able to prove your 'logic', it can never EVER apply, because its foundation is based on things like hopes, wishes, fairytales, magic, probably some Walt Disney Princesses, pure assumptions (which are based on the maximum capability of the people making those assumptions.. they're probably calling it experience or something) and other senseless stuff..

Perhaps in stead of trying to keep all relevant data to yourselves and trying to get everyone off your back by stating wall-of-text-like nonsense, you could make public what you've found, what you've done, what your thought processes were and what is actually being done to prevent this.
And I'm not even talking about legal stuff.. Some people mentioned GDPR before. That's just 1 of the many legal documents present on the great big Internetz regarding the security of personal data.
If you're offering a 3rd party solution, you are still responsible to your clients.. That 3rd party is responsible to you and you need to be absolutely sure that your client data is secure..
If you're not sure, then the Only option is to not use that 3rd party thing and if you continue using it: YOU are legally at fault, no matter how much you point your finger to said 3rd party..

#4 Re: Game Discussion » Regarding the data breach » 2019-03-25 11:58:14

LukeM wrote:
TheSource85 wrote:

Soo.. If PlayerIO is to blame for the breach, that means PlayerIO uses an insecure manner to store their passwords..
Changing my password is kind of pointless then, right? I mean.. If it's easily hackable then changing it will only provide more information on how I handle my passwords, increasing the predictability of my passwords exponentially..

The security vulnerability we've found is very specific to the game database, so it can't be used to do anything with account details or game files (which is the reason we originally believed that only the small number of emails that happened to still be stored from an obsolete email system were at risk). However it turned out that the person carrying out these attacks also got access to an old export perfomed a few months ago (by someone who no longer has access to the backend console). We strongly believe that old data is all that they have in this regard, and that they do not have the ability to access current account information other than whats stored in our game database, which isn't much.

PlayerIO does have its problems, but they do seem to store user passwords in a secure way, where they are completely 'walled off' from the rest of its systems, and hashed (with salt) so that even if someone did somehow get access to this system there wouldn't be a whole lot they could do.

Key words in that reply are: 'We strongly believe' and 'seem to store'.
Whatever you think or believe is not adding any value to this whole thing.

Point is: Stuff got hacked and used.
Why?: Because something in the data allowed stuff to be (in this case massively) hacked and used.
What is helpful?: Getting all parties involved to do a massive security overhaul and getting external involvement to assess the actions you'll be taking to ensure this doesn't happen again..
What is not helpful?: Making (and posting) assumptions, believes, or putting any form of faith in the thing that is responsible for this breach.

To be clear: a salt code is very helpful to help raise complexity in encryption, but usually it's is either fixed in the site code, application code or saved in the databse and that always leads to the possibility of decrypting data..
Unless of course you know a way to use the salt code without making it findable anywhere.. (which I managed to do)

#5 Re: Game Discussion » Regarding the data breach » 2019-03-25 11:10:25

Soo.. If PlayerIO is to blame for the breach, that means PlayerIO uses an insecure manner to store their passwords..
Changing my password is kind of pointless then, right? I mean.. If it's easily hackable then changing it will only provide more information on how I handle my passwords, increasing the predictability of my passwords exponentially..

Not saying I'm the best at creating password systems, but I have created a few and one of those is (imo) fairly decent.. Even if you manage to hack 1 password, which is a very difficult job to do in the first place, you can never use your gained knowledge to hack another (rainbow tables will not work and decrypting neither). AFAIK my passwords have not been hacked so far, and I would love for someone to try.

Anyone interested? PM me //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/tongue

#6 Re: Off Topic Discussion » Personality types » 2015-06-18 16:27:33

Well, I gave it a try as well //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/tongue

Extroverted (E) 53% Introverted (I) 47%
Intuitive (N) 54% Sensing (S) 46%
Thinking (T) 50% Feeling (F) 50%
Judging (J) 64% Perceiving (P) 36%

Your type is: ENTJ

ENTJ - "Field Marshall". The basic driving force and need is to lead. Tend to seek a position of responsibility and enjoys being an executive. 1.8% of total population.

#7 Re: Game Discussion » The EE staff, their roles, their vision. » 2015-06-15 21:11:30

Tomkazaz wrote:

@TheSource85 You need to back off.. You LITERALLY just joined and you already argue with every possible user. You're ruining your reputation.

Well, since nobody knows me, there's not much reputation to ruin https://wiki.everybodyedits.com/images/c/c0/069_LOL

#8 Re: Game Discussion » The EE staff, their roles, their vision. » 2015-06-15 20:59:25

Mylo wrote:

Honestly, this bugs me.

TheSource85: "[...] people like you are the ones we have to look out for. [...]"

People who say what they think. People who have an opinion. People who just don't like how things are handled.
Source, I can only say you what I think. 'til now i had no negative nor positive feelings about you.
But throwing things on a personal level is always bad (on subjects like these). I learned it the hard way and you should maybe too.

You wrote your post in a way which is everything, but no proof you were able to manage a chat service where people have been able to disagree with each other.
My opinion.

I'm sorry you feel that way.. But everyone's got the right to their own opinion, as long as they are respectful to eachother, and I feel that you do.

I seriously agree to concerns about me, because nobody really knows me, I really do. So I will try to proove that in-game, in which a lot of peole already have seen me in action (to their releive actually)..

Throwing it on a personal level... Yes, I can see how you can see that.. But have you read the respectless attitude of the person who I was responding to? An insult to me is already personal, why would I not react personally to that (don't I have personal rights?)? And even if I wouldn't .. There are rules of respect which were clearly broken many times over..

#9 Re: Game Discussion » The EE staff, their roles, their vision. » 2015-06-15 20:31:54

eeisold wrote:

If we must derail the thread to discuss my main account, then that's your prerogative.
Keep in mind there's a difference between having a well-established presence in a community (and subsequently modifying it in the extreme) as opposed to being known by no one and showing up.
I'm not trying to insult you, I'm trying to use you as an example. What criteria is used to find an admin? Surely there is some criteria. Likely this would be based off of past experiences and the expectation for this person to act similarly in the future. (@jawapa: aka, people who aren't professional game devs likely won't be able to keep up an act as such)
You're the perfect counterexample because you came from out of nowhere and purposely share this detail with everyone. (Of course, the only time this is actually a bad action is if the position you've been accepted into expects policies from you)

@Jawapa: Again, this previous post was more of an open speculation than anything. You now know what issues come to mind. I don't know if you addressed the issues, but at least you recognize them as such.

You know.. If company's have policy issues, they hire someone from outside of the company to look at theirs and change it..
So I'm not payed, but I can look unbias to everything happening.. Which I will do to the best of my ability.
And if I fail, I fail.. but not because I'm a nub in the game (which I'm not), but because I couldn't do it..
Only thing I'd like from everyone is just a bit of basic respect, that's all..

#10 Re: Game Discussion » The EE staff, their roles, their vision. » 2015-06-15 19:59:04

eeisold wrote:

You bet I'm an alt.

eeisold wrote:

Also, yes, I'm talking about you, TheSource85

Haha, so an alt, who dares to insult everyone (oh right, especially me atm.. well, whatever floats your boat //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/smile ) but is too scared to admit to who he/she really is? (Let's start the pools everyone.. "Who is eeisold?")

Talking about me, like you're challenging me or whatever? Go right ahead buddy.. If my judgement over a reported person is wrong, I will be accountable for my own actions.. So far I've kicked and even banned a few people, but also left some alone, even though 3 people were bugging me to kick; Those kick requests were unwarrented so I don't do it.. In all honesty, people like you are the ones we have to look out for.

If people with such tempers think they're so much better then other people (Yes, I mean Myself buddy) then they should never EVER be in a position of power.
I never said I was any better of a person, only my judgment is trusted as being honest and unbias. Do I crave power? No I don't.. Do I want to flaunt my guardianship modator status in other people's faces? No, but as a moderator (or admin) is somewhat of a public position, it's better if people know about it..

So I would like to see if you have the *ahum* b@llz to come out and tell me who you are ("you bet I'm an alt...".. *chuckles*)

#11 Re: Game Discussion » The EE staff, their roles, their vision. » 2015-06-15 15:59:44

Kiran wrote:

I still don't understand who does what in the section of moderators. If 4 mods are checking reports, then there's an obvious problem.
1 qualified and active person only is needed to check the reports.
Someone has to explain me why is TheSource85 still moderator, he just came to the game. But the fate made that he became mod just because he hosted several chats and created a minecraft server on linux.
I'm not being negative or jealous or have "envy", but this is pointless even If I like the moderators or admins, when there's something wrong, someone has to say it.
I don't think there should be any moderators to be honest, being part of staff isn't special anymore like the old times.

Well, I think that de admins (who are also partially dev) are not always around to keep an eye on stuff.
So mods are necessary in-game.. As for my participation.. Well, let's just say that time will tell you all //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/smile

#12 Re: Game Discussion » The EE staff, their roles, their vision. » 2015-06-15 14:34:36

some man wrote:

oh i thought you were talking about

eeisold wrote:

two other developers I've barely heard of

My bad //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/smile

#13 Re: Game Discussion » The EE staff, their roles, their vision. » 2015-06-15 14:22:00

some man wrote:
TheSource85 wrote:
eeisold wrote:

Thanks, rgl, for posing an actual responsive argument.

Maybe I think that these folks won't give the effort (though you say they do) because they come and go with the weather. I find it hard to believe that the guy who programmed a bot + EE remake is too busy to do upkeep and needs two other developers I've barely heard of. Then there's 80% of the mods who lack credibility. (Especially the guy who made a blog post to say that no one knows him. that's funny.)

Thanks again

That's me right?

i'm pretty sure he's talking about xjeex and cjmader or whatever his name was

Oh, okay.. I thought he meant me with

eeisold wrote:

Especially the guy who made a blog post to say that no one knows him. that's funny.

#14 Re: Game Discussion » The EE staff, their roles, their vision. » 2015-06-15 14:14:32

eeisold wrote:

Thanks, rgl, for posing an actual responsive argument.

Maybe I think that these folks won't give the effort (though you say they do) because they come and go with the weather. I find it hard to believe that the guy who programmed a bot + EE remake is too busy to do upkeep and needs two other developers I've barely heard of. Then there's 80% of the mods who lack credibility. (Especially the guy who made a blog post to say that no one knows him. that's funny.)

Thanks again

That's me right?

#15 Re: Game Suggestions » IDEAS TO IMPROVE EE! » 2015-06-15 13:26:34

I like this thread. Keep them ideaz flowing //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/big_smile

Anyway, we will review it and see if any of it is usefull enough to merit a change //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/smile (I see some very usefull stuff, nou it's up to developers)

#16 Re: Game Discussion » The EE staff, their roles, their vision. » 2015-06-15 13:14:22

Dbear wrote:
JaWapa wrote:
Dbear wrote:

Jawapa's 16? Hm, suddenly the racism doesn't seem all that surprising. I'd think he'd grow out of it, but his ilk typically don't.

Please, go read the thread again.  Nothing in the topic was racist.

Seems people throw scream "racist" every time someone questions the actions of a specific group of people.

I mean, I understand that you are in fact a literal child, so digesting this might be a tad difficult for you, but do explain how a little white boy somehow managed to meet all 38 million black people to make the call that the majority of them "sag their pants to their knees, do drugs, and talk like idiots"?

It's a shame that eeforumify.com no longer works, otherwise I'd simply link the topic, but I did save these gems:

Majority of the black people I know sag their pants to their knees, do drugs, and talk like dumba$$es (like: yo dawg, eh jus wen ta da mov-ie an watch cap-n amarca, it was good). Before you say that's racist, it's not. This IS how most black people act. I do know some black people who are decent people and I enjoy talking to.

What I am saying is that a certain race acts in a way, then when other races say something about it, then they claim they are racist.

Stating how the majority of people act, is not being racist.

If you act this way, than why are you offended? If you don't act this way, then you can blame most of the other African-American people for bringing this on...

Natural black people have fuller lips so they will talk differently from white people... thats still different from talking like a ****...
And I'm not basing a whole race off of a few people... I'm not basing anything... I said MOST black people act that way, NOT ALL but MOST.

Like, I guess one could be severely undereducated, and so unbelievably racist that they don't, or rather can't realize how racist they are. But hey, if you want to go and say that "most" black people act this way, I suppose I could make the statement that most whites are redneck hicks, or neo nazis, or mentally disturbed school shooters waiting to happen. Not all, but most. :^)


Actually, if you acknowledge a race's way of going about stuff, it's basically a positive form of racism, as you point out that you recognised some doings of their race.
Unless you actually insult their ways, pointing is out is not a negative thing.. It's like stating a fact, which is unbias in my world.

#17 Re: Game Discussion » The EE staff, their roles, their vision. » 2015-06-15 12:56:38

rgl32 wrote:
Zumza wrote:

if NOU ensures if admins and mods are doing their work, who ensures that NOU ensures?

Well then who will ensure that person ensures nou? it has to stop somewhere, and it stopped sooner than later.

basically it's like this: nou ensures the team, the team is capable enough to notice when (or rather if) it's not going well, so the strength of the team ensures that nou ensures, which basically is again ensured by nou, because he ensures that primarily, so in a way, nou is ensuring himself and checking himself by ensuring the functioning of the team. of course nvd will keep an eye open as well, but he is also being guided by nou, as he gave nou that position.. so nou ensures that, while being backed by nvd, while being checked by the team, while checking himself and ensuring that that ensurance is ensured on everything.

#18 Re: Game Discussion » Helloo New guardian » 2015-06-14 19:04:43

Well Tomkazaz, telling me about my attitude, while I seriously try to be neutral and reacting with normal actually truthfull answers, I find your negativity to get more rude everytime you post..
Perhaps this is just your own way of showing concern, but it's not really productive and ranting on and on isn't going to change the fact that I'm already on board..
Also, I've been playing the game for the last week and I've actually been usefull within the different player levels.. Call me nub and useless all you want.. All I got was an honest thanks when I got rid of trollers, so people could do what they came for (you know.. 'playing the game').

#19 Re: Game Discussion » The EE staff, their roles, their vision. » 2015-06-14 18:56:19

Tomkazaz wrote:

Of course... I should have known you would make a rule preventing you from posting bans. That's pretty convenient now that I'm asking you to prove you actually do anything in this game, isn't it?

Though I don't always agree to your (rather) negative-ish posts, I do agree that at least your own reports should be logged and handled neatly.
So a contact ticket system (not only for abuse reports) would be great and clear for the players who report stuff, as they can actually see how the team handled the report.

Not sure if it will be created, but I will support you on this one!

#20 Re: Game Discussion » Helloo New guardian » 2015-06-13 21:23:49

Tomkazaz wrote:
Evilbunny wrote:
Tomkazaz wrote:
TheSource85 wrote:
Nvd wrote:

Uh, I do not have an Instagram account //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/tongue

I can confirm nvd is definitly not 24 //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/tongue He's 15 - deal with it //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/tongue

And I obviously believe everything you say, ignoring the fact that you literally just joined here and that nobody knows who you are, what you are and why you are even here..

I mean you have every right not to believe him, but cut give the guy a break. He is VOLUNTEERING to put up with you people and help clean up the game.

I don't care if he's volunteering or not, the decision or bringing him was wrong in the first place.. Not only we know nothing about him, but the purpose of his existence in EE is absolutely incomprehensible. Do we really need a new staff member? A new GUARDIAN? Those people don't give crap about anything and they do everything a regular player does, hanging out and slacking off, except they get credit for doing so..

Needless to say, the fact that this new guy is related to NVD is already outrageous.

I'm really sorry you feel this way Tomkazaz. And outrageous or not, wrong dicision or not, don't tell me I'm a person who doesn't give a cr*l about anything, because I do.
If I didn't, I would definitly not react to anything anybody says about me (positive AND negative)..

Frankly.. The world and universe still exsist, I'm trying to help as much as I can where needed and I (indeed) do stuff regular players do.. Like uhh.. Play the game //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/smile
About the credit thing.. I'm not even going to start at that.. I'm really disappointed to such a comment..

#21 Re: Game Discussion » Helloo New guardian » 2015-06-12 21:37:49

TheSource85 wrote:
Nvd wrote:
Tomkazaz wrote:

The corruption is strong with this one..

Also, NVD is NOT 15... He's around 24 and this is his Instagram profile (registered on his true email adress).

Sorry if someone mentioned this already.. I'm not updated.

Uh, I do not have an Instagram account //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/tongue

I can confirm nvd is definitly not 24 //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/tongue He's 15 - deal with it //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/tongue

Also, (looking at that instagram profile). He's not a cuddle-with-lion-cubs type of guy..
More like a drown-your-own-fish kind of guy //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/tongue

#22 Re: Game Discussion » Helloo New guardian » 2015-06-12 21:36:02

Nvd wrote:
Tomkazaz wrote:

The corruption is strong with this one..

Also, NVD is NOT 15... He's around 24 and this is his Instagram profile (registered on his true email adress).

Sorry if someone mentioned this already.. I'm not updated.

Uh, I do not have an Instagram account //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/tongue

I can confirm nvd is definitly not 24 //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/tongue He's 15 - deal with it //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/tongue

#23 Re: Game Discussion » [Poll] Who should be guardian? » 2015-06-12 08:26:16

tak4n wrote:
TheSource85 wrote:
Evilbunny wrote:

Is this how thesource85 became guardian? Did I miss that thread?

This is not how I became guardian //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/smile
Also, voting in a thread is not the way people get to become guardian..

Lol the fact that you're so defensive about this will only make more people joke about it

I wasn't aware that giving a normal correct answer is defensive //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/wink

#24 Re: Game Discussion » [Poll] Who should be guardian? » 2015-06-12 08:11:59

Evilbunny wrote:

Is this how thesource85 became guardian? Did I miss that thread?

This is not how I became guardian //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/smile
Also, voting in a thread is not the way people get to become guardian..

#25 Re: Game Discussion » Helloo New guardian » 2015-06-11 15:48:15

Zumza wrote:

People will know you as how you talk.
As I said, I don't think NVD had put here without having a big trust in you, without being a nice guy, without being a good guardian.
But you can't continue saying that we don't know at least a little about you. You already have 15 posts.
Indeed nobody can knows exactly how a men is. Not even himself.
And what I can see you treat as asame. You don't know us either!

That is absolutely true and very important, so that's my first goal..
Just to get to know everyone and see what's going on //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/smile

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