The Sun rises again

Kiraninja · 2022-07-15 06:47:01

Gentlemen, ladies and all of you. I was the first one to not believe in Everybody Edits Unity. I also was the first one to not believe in Everybody Edits Universe, even after content has been released.
All the drama surrounding staff was exhausting, not only to the staff, but to the players themselves as well, and it showed. For years and years, we all waited patiently for a new version to be released, to prevent the death of our beloved game and ultimately, it did die... Up to a certain point.

I have been in this community for a decade now, and so have some of you. We shared those memories together, and we can't help but remember all the great nostalgic times we had together, building, playing and being part of this community as a whole... I have played a lot of games, especially multiplayer ones. But none strikes to me, as much as Everybody Edits did, and that's what makes it special to me, I was able to fully express myself in it, and enjoy every second of it. The feeling of improving at building, playing and making new concepts, was something that made me feel great, as it showed on the players' opinions, and that made me feel great, my work felt rewarding, and made me want to build more and more for all of you, and also for me.

This brings up to my point, and the point of this new topic.

I want to believe, trust and be patient for this new version of the game. It's clear to me that this time around, the game is being handled way more professionally than the Xenonetix era, or the Unity era. What I really like from this new team, is the fact that they're not just creating unfounded hype, like Xenonetix did with his videos, patreon videos, screenshots and leaks. We all were excited when we saw the content being published, however the game itself was very far from being done, and players quickly caught on that fact, which left us ultimately disappointed. The fact that Satanya's team is trying to prevent that at all cost, by refusing to create this fake hype is very understandable.

We can't put the blame on them for what happened in the past, nor can we brush it off as a joke because past teams were incompetent, that does not represent them, and it certainly should not have anything to do with them. That's why I want to see it as the first serious attempt in making a brand new Everybodyedits and I am willing to fully believe that they are seriously working on it.

I have faith in them, and I'd like to share that I'm happy to be part of this community.

Thank you for hearing me out.

ShadowsEdge, AllenCaspe9510, Grilyon2, Minimania, N1KF, Rivelka, 2b55b5g, mutantdevle, Edilights, Satanya, Atikyne, Onjit, Raven, ExFabian, Foxy_Grandpa, Blackmask

AllenCaspe9510 · 2022-07-15 06:55:56

Amazing post, this is a new tradition we need to follow!

Kiraninja

N1KF · 2022-07-15 08:26:32

You know you've reached a new age of EE when you see threads like these

Edilights, Grilyon2, Satanya, Raven

ExFabian · 2022-07-16 09:02:51

As long as the game isn't Everybody Edits DLC with better graphics I will be happy. And from the looks of it, it isn't. Better to have a late finished game rather than a barely playable alpha version 2 years before the actual release.

Satanya, Grilyon2

NoNK · 2022-07-17 06:38:23

Crazy to think that everybody edits.

skullz17

N1KF · 2022-07-17 06:47:48

NoNK wrote:

Crazy to think that everybody edits.

"In a way, everybody edits."
~ Mary Renck Jalongo and Olivia N. Saracho

Era · 2022-07-17 08:00:50

N1KF wrote:

You know you've reached a new era of EE when you see threads like these

Could you all stop with the personal attacks, i've already apologized

Tomahawk

Yu · 2022-07-17 20:04:27

Can't wait for the new EE. Finally graphics that weren't ripped straight outta Mario and Facebook.

Abiqi · 2022-07-17 22:04:46

Yu wrote:

Can't wait for the new EE. Finally graphics that weren't ripped straight outta Mario and Facebook.

Tbh I like the new graphics more because they also try to reuse the colours from other graphics instead of introducing new shade of hex

Zumza · 2022-07-18 17:37:40

Firstly, I want to admit that I am quite out of the loop with the current state of events of EE, and my conclusions are based on brief observations I made.

From my limited perspective, and by now faulty memory, I am sorry to say that, I believe things might be just as bad as they were.

Is it 2 years since Xenonetix "abdication" happened?

From what I recall (perhaps wrongfully) we were assured that the new administration was prepared to take over this game. From what it seems it was a preparation with a merely rough plan or without one entirely.

What kind of management doesn't start with defining the key components of the user experience? What kind of game designer doesn't plan how they're going to retain users? What kind of responsible business owner can say that making the game self-sustainable financially is the last of their concern?

▼From Hints and leaks of unannounced content (smiley info, EEF dev graphics) posted by N1KF

Making a good game is their plan. But how they're going to do that seems unclear. From what I see, even now, their vision for EE! is blurry.
These before mentioned things should had been ideally settled before acquiring people to write code.

The new administration doesn't seem to have any incentives to preserve the community except not releasing an estimated date for release.
Surely, a team of developers with 25+ years of experience can say that the game is not nearly done in the following months or year in this rhythm.

After 2 years(?) since Xenonetix left, as Musearys says but in a technical jargon: up so far EE! crashes after a minute, or even less, it begins showing something on the screen.

▼From EE! Discord

I see no novelty in the hope, in the promises being made, in the justifications for delay and issues.

With the state of facts, I believe, The Sun is still yet very, very, far to shine.

Joeyjoey65, Edilights

LukeM · 2022-07-18 17:57:54

▼Zumza wrote:

Firstly, I want to admit that I am quite out of the loop with the current state of events of EE, and my conclusions are based on brief observations I made.

From my limited perspective, and by now faulty memory, I am sorry to say that, I believe things might be just as bad as they were.

Is it 2 years since Xenonetix "abdication" happened?

From what I recall (perhaps wrongfully) we were assured that the new administration was prepared to take over this game. From what it seems it was a preparation with a merely rough plan or without one entirely.

What kind of management doesn't start with defining the key components of the user experience? What kind of game designer doesn't plan how they're going to retain users? What kind of responsible business owner can say that making the game self-sustainable financially is the last of their concern?

▼From Hints and leaks of unannounced content (smiley info, EEF dev graphics) posted by N1KF

Making a good game is their plan. But how they're going to do that seems unclear. From what I see, even now, their vision for EE! is blurry.
These before mentioned things should had been ideally settled before acquiring people to write code.

The new administration doesn't seem to have any incentives to preserve the community except not releasing an estimated date for release.
Surely, a team of developers with 25+ years of experience can say that the game is not nearly done in the following months or year in this rhythm.

After 2 years(?) since Xenonetix left, as Musearys says but in a technical jargon: up so far EE! crashes after a minute, or even less, it begins showing something on the screen.

▼From EE! Discord

I see no novelty in the hope, in the promises being made, in the justifications for delay and issues.

With the state of facts, I believe, The Sun is still yet very, very, far to shine.

It sounds like you’re assuming that because you haven’t been told about their plans, there aren’t any.

The new team are taking a different approach of carrying out all this planning internally, rather than including the community in the discussions. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, it’s how most games are developed, it’s just different.

Because of this we’ll just have to wait and see, right now it’s understandable that not much is happening since a world superpower is at war with the home country of many of their devs. Once this is over and they share more info we’ll have a better idea of how things are going. Until then anything is just wild speculation.

mutantdevle, Satanya, Minimania, Snowester

Zumza · 2022-07-18 18:52:43

Yes, I am assuming that they are not purposefully deceiving us. If you have any way of demonstrating the contrary please do.

But until then, I cannot think of any reason to indulge into believeing that when they say that they will think of something later, they actually taught of it many months ago, but for some ununderstandable goal they actually want to deceive us. (or is that how UK politics work?)

Following that train of thought, we could even speculate that EE! is already done, and perhaps the administration is hiding that from us because it is not a good time to roll out the release because of some unfavorable market signals.

The intent of the post you enitrely quoted, and hopefully also read, was to set forth the current state of events as opposed to what the OP hopes and speculates EE! to be.

In any case, EE! does not seem to have a clear bussiness plan at all.

Also, believing that that war is going to finish anytime soon is a fantasy.

LukeM · 2022-07-18 19:27:47

▼Zumza wrote:

Intentionally deceiving us? They’ve said hardly anything, I’m not sure how they’d be deceiving us lol

Are you just talking about those two quotes about not prioritising monetisation and having at least one rendering bug? If so extrapolating from that to not having any plan for the user experience, retaining players, a vision, etc is a massive stretch.

As you seem to be focusing a lot on monetisation I’ll touch in that directly:

Prioritising monetisation over gameplay is what results in a pay-to-win game completely stuffed full of micro-transactions, and isn’t something that is good for the player. I’d say it’s a very good thing that their #1 priority is creating a good game. Counter-intuitively, focusing on monetisation first is actually generally a bad business decision, since it leads to a worse game, which leads to fewer players and less potential for monetisation. If you have a really good game with a dedicated community, you can generally find ways to monetise it, a lot of games survive on voluntary donations only.

mutantdevle, Satanya, N1KF, Minimania, Edilights

mutantdevle · 2022-07-18 20:45:28

Just because the monetisation is a low priority does not mean we don't have a plan for it. We also have very clear plans for both the development of the game and building a player base.

We do not like to share our plans often because they are very subjective to change and conditional on things going perfectly. All we'd be achieving otherwise is spreading misinformation about the final product because there is no way that everyone would be able to keep up with every bit of news.

Retaining the player base across the development time would have been a monumental task that would never have been successful. We'll hype people up when the game is near release and no sooner. For now, all we ask from the community is to be patient and respectful. Keeping people engaged with the community is not something we consider necessary at this time because we have full faith in the final product to speak for itself and draw players back in once it's ready. In the meantime, sticking around in the community is everyone's personal choice. But if the people that choose to stick around cannot be patient and respectful, then to be blunt, we don't want them sticking around.

In terms of development news, we are not simply waiting for the war to end to continue development. Progress is currently still being made but definitely at a slower rate than before the war started. Besides addressing hugely significant things such as the war, which not only severely limited development for a while but has also had a significantly irreversible emotional impact on much of our team, we do not plan to make posts every time development changes speed.

Satanya, Minimania

Satanya · 2022-07-18 20:48:45

mutantdevle wrote:

Just because the monetisation is a low priority does not mean we don't have a plan for it. We also have very clear plans for both the development of the game and building a player base.

▼From EE! Discord

We work with programmers that've been in the industry for 20-25+ years, they wouldn't even think of starting coding the engine and game without a clear and thorough design document and vision. I spent a few weeks writing out a 50-100 page design document outlining absolutely everything that needs to be outlined. That's just how proper games start. Without a design doc, it's like having tons of LEGO pieces I assembled, no instructions, and being told, "here, build what I asked."

The design doc itself will never be public-- usually, in most games, they never do become public anyways. That isn't an indicator of a lack of plan, just a desire to keep things secret.

mutantdevle

Norwee · 2022-07-18 21:06:50

Personally i'm not gonna praise anyone until i see concrete results. And that's been a wise choice ever since Benjaminsen moved on. But i do appreciate the attempts to make EE's legacy continue, no matter if we see anything come from it or not.

mutantdevle, 2b55b5g, ExFabian

Zumza · 2022-07-18 22:01:37

Satanya wrote:

My aim when writing the design doc for EE! was to, first and foremost, address major issues that bothered me about EE and EEU. (From EE! Discord)
I spent a few weeks writing out a 50-100 page design document outlining absolutely everything that needs to be outlined. (From EE Forums)

One of the issues with EEU, might I remind the readers, was that the developers, surprisingly, weren't truly motivated with receiving just the amount of coins needed to wash their cloths in which they were sweating in while coding, as remuneration.

And, yet, apparently that design document covers everything about the game but monetization.

That seems just very odd.

50-100 pages? What is it 50 or 100? Is it 75? Maybe we'll find on another occasion that is under 25 or over 200.

From this I understand, there's a large degree of uncertainty even over what is supposedly done. I presume that the document wasn't checked in a long while if the number of pages is in such great margins of error.

At least we've found the recipe for great PR: if we said something illogical, deny what was said(there is actually a plan) and frame it as a misunderstanding as things are always subjective to change™.

Tomahawk · 2022-07-18 22:04:43

Here's an idea for the doomers; if EE! isn't successful, sunk cost fallacy dictates we get a couple years of gameplay out of it anyway.

Most of the current "community" are in their twenties. Likelihood is we'll have moved on before EE! dies, and probably before it peaks.

mutantdevle

mutantdevle · 2022-07-18 22:36:28

Zumza wrote:

One of the issues with EEU, might I remind the readers, was that the developers, surprisingly, weren't truly motivated with receiving just the amount of coins needed to wash their cloths in which they were sweating in while coding, as remuneration.

The EE! developers are being paid professionally. It isn't free hobbyist labour with the occasional minor payout like EEU was. Money is being invested into the game before it makes a profit.

Zumza wrote:

50-100 pages? What is it 50 or 100? Is it 75?

It started out at around 60 but has since expanded to around 100. The specific numbers are kinda irrelevant. Satanya's point was that there is a plan and it is a detailed one.

I fully support Norwee's perspective. While some people are naturally excited by the things we have said, it is entirely reasonable to be sceptical and withhold any excitement until we start showing off the game more (which as I say, more than likely won't happen until closer to release). I definitely would not be as excited as I am about EE! if I was not in the privileged position of knowing the behind-the-scenes progress. However, I do not support deliberate attempts to ruin other people's excitement, which is seemingly what you are trying to do in this thread Zumza. Although we don't intend on making big announcements about plans throughout most of the development process, we have always welcomed questions. Satanya is very active in answering a whole range of questions in the EE! discord, which N1KF helpfully documents in her hints and leaks thread. But right now, the way that you are asking your questions is not what I would consider respectful.

Satanya, Minimania

Zumza · 2022-07-18 23:35:31

Unless you refer to my rhetoric writing style, I certainly did not ask any questions.

Surely there is no crime in discussing how things might not be as they seem.

I am sorry of the offense I am causing by speculating the worst based on what we have.

It just seems that EE is simply cursed and it passes unto the people who work for it! (I hope cercul1 stopped breaking his limbs after leaving the staff)
What other possible explanation could there be that at the high time when progress was made, a war starts, and after that we learn that half of the development team happened to be in Ukraine?

NoNK · 2022-07-19 00:49:55

Tomahawk wrote:

Here's an idea for the doomers; if EE! isn't successful, sunk cost fallacy dictates we get a couple years of gameplay out of it anyway.
Most of the current "community" are in their twenties. Likelihood is we'll have moved on before EE! dies, and probably before it peaks.

My children will play EE!

LukeM · 2022-07-19 00:52:32

Zumza wrote:

One of the issues with EEU, might I remind the readers, was that the developers, surprisingly, weren't truly motivated with receiving just the amount of coins needed to wash their cloths in which they were sweating in while coding, as remuneration.
And, yet, apparently that design document covers everything about the game but monetization.

I’ll have you know the money I made from EE covered not only all of my washing from the date I started up until a couple months ago, but also a few other small purchases which only accepted PayPal!

More seriously, for me the money was never a problem. I was a full time student in the UK where all tuition, accommodation, and living costs are funded entirely by the government by a very fair student loan which you never need to pay back unless you earn above the national average and can afford to pay it. The reasons I didn’t spend more time working on EEU were partly that I was a full time student so was very busy, and partly that the constant drama around Xeno, the way Xeno treated us, the data breaches, the hacking incidents, etc made it unenjoyable.

This time is different since they’re paying people to do it as a job rather than having it be a collective hobby, so monetisation is more important, but for the reasons I stated above I don’t think putting monetisation as the #1 priority is a smart idea.

mutantdevle

Kiraninja · 2022-07-19 02:08:50

Zumza wrote:

I see no novelty in the hope, in the promises being made, in the justifications for delay and issues.
With the state of facts, I believe, The Sun is still yet very, very, far to shine.

Norwee wrote:

Personally i'm not gonna praise anyone until i see concrete results. And that's been a wise choice ever since Benjaminsen moved on. But i do appreciate the attempts to make EE's legacy continue, no matter if we see anything come from it or not.

Understandable, but I'm glad you're coming forward and say this. I thought exactly this way when it came to EE Unity and EE Universe and I was arguably the main and only person to be extremely opposed to the projects, as I had no faith in them whatsoever

Did it help or do achieve anything? Well actually, it could've to be fair. I knew first hand how uncapable Xenonetix was and pretty much 99% of the community had faith that someday, EEU would come out (at the start). He hyped us up with half-assed content and frankly did it achieve anything?
No, not really. The game wasn't being worked on, he was still stealing patreon money from users and nothing was being done.

But let's be honest, this time It's different. I don't see the point of hyping the community up with half-assed content, knowing that the game isn't close to being done, if they were to do that it would do more harm than good knowing that they won't be able to release a full game shortly, leading to the community losing faith in them, and that should definitely be prevented. I see this as an act of professionalism, believe it or not.

Look at DECA games for instance, when they took Realm of the Mad God over, they didn't hype anyone up, they just worked on the game and kept shut. When the game was ready to be published, they surprised the community with a completely new client and polished the game to the best of their ability and that's what I want to see with EE!

Less talk, more work.

mutantdevle, Zumza

Satanya · 2022-07-19 02:34:01

I think what Mutant says sums up my feelings quite well.

mutantdevle wrote:

For now, all we ask from the community is to be patient and respectful. Keeping people engaged with the community is not something we consider necessary at this time because we have full faith in the final product to speak for itself and draw players back in once it's ready. In the meantime, sticking around in the community is everyone's personal choice. But if the people that choose to stick around cannot be patient and respectful, then to be blunt, we don't want them sticking around.

At the end of the day, if you are toxic or a jerk, that doesn't help develop the game. It doesn't achieve anything. Worst thing is, I'll just stay silent about content even more. Because, really, if you're only here to be toxic and you don't want to be patient, we don't want you around.

We have enough stresses to deal with, and logging on to see constant negativity doesn't help me achieve anything in the project. It's not as though I can wave a magic wand, and poof! the game suddenly comes out instantly. We're not robots that work 24/7 and have 0 emotions. I'm human-- I have a very real anxiety disorder that often makes me want to keep shut about the game because I know there'll be some jerk out there to try and ruin others' hype or just be there to be a jerk. Maybe that makes me an easy target for these people, idk, but personally I don't like that at all.

I personally don't want to overshare things about the game. I understand others' craving of gameplay footage, but as I said time and time again, I really, really don't want to show a pre-alpha footage of some buggy gameplay, or an unpolished lighting / particle system, or features that are roughly implemented and not refined, and have that as the expectation. Adjacent to what Kira mentioned, it's like No Man's Sky or other games-- where gameplay in trailers was so super polished up and amazing yet did not reflect the final gameplay, or, again, like NMS or Serious Sam 4, where pre-alpha gameplay leaked and people HATED it and started flaming the entire teams over it and essentially killed their morales (moreso the last of the two I mentioned). My personal approach to gameplay footage when we reveal it, and we will reveal it, is sort of, "what you see is what you get." I don't want to show you some half-assed feature. I also don't want to fake footage and make it seem way cooler than it is. I want you to see exactly what the game will be like when it's in your hands.
I also don't want to overshare anything about the game, as that would raise expectations beyond control. If I bluntly wrote a list of every single feature we had planned, everyone's expectations would vary so much, and might expect things beyond what we might be able to deliver, or vice versa, just leave 0 surprises when the game comes out and make people go, "Oh. There it is." There's a huge, huge, huge feature in EE! I've been keeping quiet on that I seriously can't wait to show, but I don't want to write it out. I don't want to ruin the surprise.

I know my words might not meet everyone's satisfaction-- but the game is getting worked on. We've spent over $30k on it, we're not gonna abandon it. All of the team, programmers, musicians, artists, writers, are paid, except for me. I've put in at least $5k of my own into this game because I definitely have faith the final project will speak for itself. I genuinely trust it'll blow you away. Heck, I've planned most of it, and I'm extremely passionate about the project! Sometimes, I talk about nothing but this game because I genuinely love every single bit of it. But the negativity others put in for the sake of being negative really drains me and all my strength. I work on the game, but I talk less with the community because I know there'll be certain stinkers who just want to be jerks about it. Only certain ones.

The rest of you folks are so, so, so amazing, and I love each and every single one of you that's been patient and kind to us. We haven't forgotten about you, and we genuinely want to deliver a project so epic you'll explode from its awesomeness! (Not literally, I hope, but with excitement!)

And those of you that don't want to be patient or prefer to be toxic-- we don't want you around. Your negativity contributes nothing for our morale or development.

edit: as for monetisation, we do have rough plans, of course. But it's the specifics I don't care to focus on about until the game is at a near final state. For example, how much smileys, and items would cost with energy and money, the exact value of everything, etc... I really don't want to think about it until it's necessary. We want to make a good game and that's our #1 priority. We know how the shop will work, but again, the mathematics of it and such just isn't something I care to focus on. EEU's design doc, if I remember right, was laser focused on monetisation and very little about actual gameplay and features.

Minimania, AllenCaspe9510, mutantdevle, Snowester, GravityDonut

Minimania · 2022-07-19 02:38:06

Zumza wrote:

What other possible explanation could there be that at the high time when progress was made, a war starts, and after that we learn that half of the development team happened to be in Ukraine?

If the actual explanation for this war happening is a curse being handed down from Xenonetix to Satanya coming to fruition after two and a half years of Everybody Edits going offline, I will eat my shorts, and then go and buy a lottery ticket.

Satanya, Zumza, ShadowsEdge, mutantdevle, Snowester, Edilights

Official Everybody Edits Forums

#1 2022-07-15 06:47:01

The Sun rises again

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