Question about the state of the game

Zombie3000 · 2020-05-13 18:29:00

So i have a question, what has happened? I know i have been living under a rock since 2015 when it comes to EE, but i've decided to come on the forum for once and ask, what exactly has happened, since i have seen quite some topics about staff quitting lately and unhealthy team communication aswell. Another thing i would like to be updated on is, what is the current state of EE/EEU? I have noticed the player count being dead dry for atleast a year now, what happened?

Would love if someone updates me on this, it's kind of sad seeing a game, that i have started playing 8 years ago just die.

- Sincerely, Zombie3000 (known as Toma in EEU)

rat, 2b55b5g, Snowester, Pqwerty

Pqwerty · 2020-05-13 20:18:50

Uh, afaik a few years ago (2018) NVD (the previous owner) suddenly gave ownership of EE to a guy named Xenonetix (aka Chris Lamb, aka Megalamb). Little did Xenonetix know, the role was a trap. It demanded too much for one person (he had to hire, fire, moderate, make announcements, make plans, make financial decisions, manage all the teams, post updates, manage the servers, change account information, answer questions, be active on the forums, etc.). The stress caused by the very nature of the role turned Xenonetix into a tyrant, as he was so stressed out all the time that he began to snap at people and make poor decisions. It also doesn't help that Xeno had no experience running a game, was suddenly thrown into the position, and had anger issues that we didn't know about until they showed up at he wrong time. The current lack of staff and funding also piles on the stress.

Some signs that there were trouble in paradise were when Xeno fired Gosha, LukeM, and Phinarose on the same day for disagreeing with him (iirc), when he banned Silvermoonlight over them saying he doesn't know the meaning of the word "no", Xeno's handling of Gresnez (a xeno fangirl who he's raged at because of her inappropriate comments), and the recent mass departure of the staff. In some cases, Xeno had a reason to be mad, but in every case he overreacted.

Of course, Xenonetix wasn't always a tyrant (as you can see here where people were sad when he left EE shortly before inheriting the game, and here), nor was he the only person who was ruined by the EE owner role (i.e. NVD here and here). The role of owner is basically cursed until it gets divided up into manageable parts. History has repeated itself and it won't stop until we correct the issue.

The problem is, there isn't enough support on changing the owner role (which is the real issue here). Xeno's solutions have been to hire more people. The community's solutions have been to try and replace Xeno to corrupt someone else. Basically, we're in an endless loop of solving the wrong problems while the root of the problems stays planted.

That's the tea.

Slabdrill, ShadowsEdge, mutantdevle, rat, Joeyjoey65, N1KF, Zombie3000, Falk, 32OrtonEdge32dh

Zombie3000 · 2020-05-14 18:28:37

Dang, now i feel bad for him

skullz17 · 2020-05-14 18:50:18

tbh I don't agree with the narrative that Xeno gets mad and makes bad decisions in the heat of the moment. Most of the things he has done that people disagree with may have seemed that way, but if you ask him later he doesn't regret a thing. Even when he rehired LukeM, I'm pretty sure it was Joshua who recommended it to him. I also don't agree that the stress turned him into a tyrant, you don't have evidence for that and personally I would speculate that his problematic traits existed before the stress. At the very least, his anger issues already existed.

I'm not trying to argue that Xeno doesn't deserve any sympathy, but just want to point out that Pqwerty's post is pretty opinionated and not everyone sees it from the same perspective.

mutantdevle, Yoshi2018, Pqwerty, rat, Boba

Pqwerty · 2020-05-15 05:58:32

skullz17 wrote:

tbh I don't agree with the narrative that Xeno gets mad and makes bad decisions in the heat of the moment. Most of the things he has done that people disagree with may have seemed that way, but if you ask him later he doesn't regret a thing. Even when he rehired LukeM, I'm pretty sure it was Joshua who recommended it to him. I also don't agree that the stress turned him into a tyrant, you don't have evidence for that and personally I would speculate that his problematic traits existed before the stress. At the very least, his anger issues already existed.
I'm not trying to argue that Xeno doesn't deserve any sympathy, but just want to point out that Pqwerty's post is pretty opinionated and not everyone sees it from the same perspective.

You’re completely right. I did assume that stress caused him to become a tyrant. I assumed he was a good person because of people’s positive responses to his work as a moderator and how he seemed sane in his announcement posts. For all I know, he could have been a tyrant from the start but the NDA prevented people from whistleblowing for the past two years.

You’re also right that he made mistakes that even he himself doesn’t recognize as mistakes, and you’re right that this is my opinion.

But at the very least, there are signs that the stress is making Xeno’s mental health worse. A lot of medical journals say that long-term stress is killer on one’s mental health, causing things like anxiety and depression. Xeno told Gresnez (iirc) in Discord that he’s stressed out all the time, and he even threatened to kill himself when the EE hackings were going on (so obviously he’s depressed enough to have suicidal thoughts). I can only assume how bad these things were at the start (as you said), but it’s obvious that the stress is making things worse. I speculate that the long-term stress and anger issues have clouded his judgement, destroyed his mental health, and (if you think he was a horrible person at the start) made him an even more horrible person.

I just feel like Xeno becoming a tyrant made more sense to me than him always being a tyrant / always being close-minded to his mistakes, but regardless, he’s a tyrant and he’s scaring all his staff away.

On a side note, EEU is stuck because they need to fix their server code and no one has fixed it yet, so it’s basically in development hell. And EE is just losing popularity and that’s why it has so few players. Sorry to not answer all your questions in the first post.

Also, everyone can feel free to criticize / correct me if I’m wrong so that the final answer most accurately reflects the situations going on.

rat

skullz17 · 2020-05-15 18:53:01

I was just trying to say that you should give more of an objective account in this topic rather than go into a discussion about Xeno's mental health, but now that we're here I might as well give my full take.

I feel like there are a few different things being talked about here: his mental health, his close-mindedness/tyranny, and him being a horrible person. First of all, I don't think I can judge whether Xeno is a "bad person" because I don't know him enough and exactly how his mental problems affect him. That is not really the point I'm trying to make. On the point about his mental health worsening due to the stress of owning the game, I completely agree. I don't doubt that he experiences things like anxiety and depression.

However, I wouldn't link the worsening of his mental health to him becoming increasingly tyrannical or close-minded to criticism. It might have made it worse, but I don't think it's the main reason. People often misunderstand that people that are like this must be completely illogical and delusional, but I don't think that's necessarily the case. In the past, Xeno called himself a "logician", and I believe him. The reason he seems so close-minded to criticism is probably because his actions are not illogical, but are actually justified by his own logic. It is difficult to argue with him or change his mind because he has already used his logic to prove to himself that he's correct. However, being logical doesn't mean you are never wrong, obviously Xeno's logic must be flawed but it can be very difficult to prove that to him. This might be a bit of morbid analogy, but it reminds me of what it's like to talk to someone who is suicidal. If you try to argue with them, it can be pretty difficult because they will give you a pretty objective and logical case for why there is no hope for them. But that doesn't mean they're not wrong.

Anyway, I think that that's probably the most problematic trait that Xeno has aside from his anger issues, and I'm not sure that something like that can arise due to stress, so imo it probably existed before he became owner.

Pqwerty, mutantdevle

Minisaurus · 2020-05-15 19:30:32

Oh I get it, so you can´t judge Xeno is a "bad person", because you don´t know him enough and exactly how his mental problems affect him, but at the same time you have no doubt he experiences anxiety and depression
but that is not really the point you are trying to make but you also think that Xeno does not gets mad and makes bad decisions in the heat of the moment, but also have anger issues and take bad decisions in the heat of the moment but not because he gets mad. At the same time you don´t link his mental health to him becoming increasingly tyrannical and close minded to criticism, but you think at the same time that it is the cause of he becoming increasingly tyrannical and close minded to criticism.
But that doesn't mean he is not wrong, in fact, because it's like to talk to someone who is suicidal, and as so if you argue with Xenonetix he will give you a pretty objective and logical case for why there is no hope for him.
That is not only because his anger issues, but because his stress before he became owner, that is why now he have anger issues, but not because that you argue that Xeno doesn't deserve any sympathy but Xeno called himself a "logician", and because that you believe him but at the same time the reason he seems so close-minded to criticism is probably because his actions are not illogical

@Skullz17 did I understand your point?

Pqwerty · 2020-05-16 00:36:38

@Mini
I think he was trying to say that we don’t know why Xeno is the way he is because we aren’t doctors (or medical experts). So we can’t say for fact whether Xeno’s actions were caused by stress or not. And I agree. I shouldn’t be trying to diagnose him. Skull also told me to be less speculative and more objective/factual when discussing things like this.

Minimania · 2020-05-16 01:16:42

what do I have anythingto do with this

mutantdevle · 2020-05-16 01:26:14

Minisaurus wrote:

@Skullz17 did I understand your point?

This is the pettiest post we've had on this forums for a quite a while. I doubt you even disagree with the stuff he said, you're just being toxic at this point. You seem to be acting very unnecessarily aggressive since leaving staff and I honestly don't understand why.

Minimania, John, Kentiya, TaskManager, Yoshi2018

Minisaurus · 2020-05-16 03:15:36

mutantdevle wrote:

I doubt you even disagree with the stuff he said

I don´t disagree with the stuff he said, I just don´t understand his point and tried to present it as how I understood it
Giving my point of view and opinion on the action of the staff is never an act of toxicity as you bring up, I can tell what is my opinion and provide what I think of arguments, and you can agree or disagree with them
Now, if you don´t like what I say, then you are welcome to reply to my comments

mutantdevle · 2020-05-16 04:18:13

Minisaurus wrote:

I just don´t understand his point and tried to present it as how I understood it

Why are you even going to try and pretend this is true? Literally everyone knows the only purpose of your post in this thread is to mirror what Skullz said to you in that other thread.

Minisaurus wrote:

Giving my point of view and opinion on the action of the staff is never an act of toxicity as you bring up, I can tell what is my opinion and provide what I think of arguments, and you can agree or disagree with them
Now, if you don´t like what I say, then you are welcome to reply to my comments

I can't tell if this is referring to this thread or the other one.

If you mean this thread, you never gave your opinion in that post. You just mirrored Skullz's previous post in the other thread by summarising his points but in a way that blatantly misrepresented them.

If you mean the other thread, the point of view you gave wasn't the issue. It was the way you aggressively presented your opinion in a way that I personally consider to be unhelpful and toxic. I never engaged directly with you in that thread because I considered the argument to ultimately be pointless.

This isn't a matter of not liking what you say, this is an issue of how you say it. I didn't say anything about it in the other thread because it wasn't a big deal: sometimes arguments can be toxic. But once you start airing your grievances from one thread in another, hence spreading the toxicity of what would otherwise be an isolated argument across the forums, then I feel that you're crossing a line.

John, Kentiya

Minisaurus · 2020-05-16 04:59:35

So this is a SJW point of view, where you need to follow your rules of how to post correctly if not then I assume I am violating your safe space?

I don´t see how critiquize John is toxic, I do agree that what I said belong better to a private disscusion with John rather than a public comment since it is a staff-to-staff discussion mostly, but I do also believe that Skull´s s****post was very rude and didn´t gave anything relevant to what i was talking with John, he was very disruptive and as you love to say, toxic. It would be fine if he disagree, but as you said, how you say it matters for me too then

You can apply your post above to Skull too, do you? If not then you are a complete hypocrite @Mutantdevle

skullz17 · 2020-05-16 16:36:53

Minisaurus wrote:

So this is a SJW point of view, where you need to follow your rules of how to post correctly if not then I assume I am violating your safe space?
I don´t see how critiquize John is toxic, I do agree that what I said belong better to a private disscusion with John rather than a public comment since it is a staff-to-staff discussion mostly, but I do also believe that Skull´s s****post was very rude and didn´t gave anything relevant to what i was talking with John, he was very disruptive and as you love to say, toxic. It would be fine if he disagree, but as you said, how you say it matters for me too then
You can apply your post above to Skull too, do you? If not then you are a complete hypocrite @Mutantdevle

In the discussion about John, I was trying to make the point that your argument was inconsistent and it felt like some of your statements were contradicting. I agree that my post was a bit rude towards you and I could have made my point in a nicer way. Sometimes I like to express my points in a humorous or snarky way, and sometimes it happens at someone else's expense. I honestly try to hold back a lot these days, but it's part of my personality and sometimes I can't help it. Sorry it happened to you.

When I read your post in this topic, it wasn't clear to me whether you were just salty, trying to banter with me, or if you genuinely didn't get my point. But now you said that you actually didn't understand my point, so I'll try to clarify things.

Oh I get it, so you can´t judge Xeno is a "bad person", because you don´t know him enough and exactly how his mental problems affect him, but at the same time you have no doubt he experiences anxiety and depression but that is not really the point you are trying to make

First of all, I didn't say "no doubt", I said "I don't doubt". These sound similar but I'm pretty sure "no doubt" means "definitely", whereas "I don't doubt" is closer to "probably". I'm not claiming to know Xeno's diagnoses. But in Pqwerty's post, he suggested that Xeno's stress might lead to anxiety and depression. All I'm saying is that that might be true.

This doesn't contradict me saying that I don't know enough about how his mental health problems affect him. Since calling someone a "bad person" is an ethical judgement, we have to understand the person's degree of control over their own actions before we can judge them. I don't want to go into that, which is why I said it's not really my point.

but you also think that Xeno does not gets mad and makes bad decisions in the heat of the moment, but also have anger issues and take bad decisions in the heat of the moment but not because he gets mad.

This confusion is probably due to bad wording on my part. I think that he might get mad and make bad decisions in the heat of the moment, but the fact is, he doesn't regret them later. That kind of takes away from the "in the heat of the moment" part. Usually this phrase implies that the emotions in the moment caused a lapse in judgement, and the person should be able to admit the error once they are calm. But this isn't the case with Xeno, which is why I argue that there are errors in his reasoning even when he's calm, and it's not necessarily his emotions that are clouding his judgement.

At the same time you don´t link his mental health to him becoming increasingly tyrannical and close minded to criticism, but you think at the same time that it is the cause of he becoming increasingly tyrannical and close minded to criticism.

Don't know what to say about this, I never made the causal link you're suggesting.

But that doesn't mean he is not wrong, in fact, because it's like to talk to someone who is suicidal, and as so if you argue with Xenonetix he will give you a pretty objective and logical case for why there is no hope for him.

you are trolling me

That is not only because his anger issues, but because his stress before he became owner, that is why now he have anger issues,

I can see this one being a genuine misunderstanding for other people as well, so I'll answer even though I think the remainder of your post is nonsense. I'm not saying he had stress before he became owner, I'm saying that his obsession with logic - which is in my view the main issue - probably existed before stress (which came with becoming the owner). I also never said anything about what caused his anger issues.

but not because that you argue that Xeno doesn't deserve any sympathy but Xeno called himself a "logician", and because that you believe him but at the same time the reason he seems so close-minded to criticism is probably because his actions are not illogical

I'm sorry but I can't understand what any of this means.

Well I hope this clears up some of the confusion.

mutantdevle, Kentiya, John

mutantdevle · 2020-05-16 17:08:31

Minisaurus wrote:

I don´t see how critiquize John is toxic, I do agree that what I said belong better to a private disscusion with John rather than a public comment since it is a staff-to-staff discussion mostly, but I do also believe that Skull´s s****post was very rude and didn´t gave anything relevant to what i was talking with John, he was very disruptive and as you love to say, toxic. It would be fine if he disagree, but as you said, how you say it matters for me too then
You can apply your post above to Skull too, do you? If not then you are a complete hypocrite @Mutantdevle

You misunderstand why I'm taking issue with you.

First of all, as I've said, you criticising John is not what I consider a problem - it's the way you did so. If you want details of why I think that then feel free to PM me but ultimately your actions in the other thread is not what I'm concerned with in this thread.

Secondly, Skull's post was not a ****. It highlighted the contradictions between your arguments against John - it was making a point. I don't understand how you can claim that you believe it "didn't gave anything relevant to what i was talking with John" when you constructively responded to his post in that thread... I can't remember exactly what your original response was, but I remember that at first you completely rejected his point. You then later edited it once you realised the point he was making held credibility.

Your post here, on the other hand, is not making any point at all. Your argument with skullz in the other thread has clearly caused you to hold a grudge against him that has made you go out of your way to parody his post against him in a completely different thread in an attempt to devalue what he has to say. If this is the kind of thing that you're likely to do then I foresee it becoming a problem on these forums, which is why I feel it is necessary to point out to you that what you're doing here is wrong so that perhaps you can reflect on yourself and correct your behaviour before it becomes a real issue. If Skullz's post genuinely hurt your feelings then that just proves my point that toxicity should be discouraged, but there are many much healthier ways to tackle that issue than to let it affect the way you conduct yourself elsewhere on the forums.

Kentiya, Yoshi2018, Minimania, TaskManager, John

Minisaurus · 2020-05-16 17:36:56

mutantdevle wrote:

it's the way you did so
Secondly, Skull's post was not a ****. It highlighted the contradictions between you... blah blah

You only apply your thoughts on what I did, but justify Skull actions
You are a complete hypocrite @Mutantdevle, period. (At some point I see the fun you have to do so, I accept that it is kind a funny to read hugh mungus SJW posts you do)

skullz17 wrote:

I like to express my points in a humorous or snarky way

I now understand your way of thinking @Skullz17, and it is disappointing

I do care what you have to say unless it is for demonise, depreciate, or bull**** my posts, if so then stop wasting my time lol

TaskManager · 2020-05-16 17:40:11

guys stop with the long posts this aint mafia

rat, Boba

skullz17 · 2020-05-16 18:37:06

Minisaurus wrote:

I do care what you have to say unless it is for demonise, depreciate, or bull**** my posts, if so then stop wasting my time lol

There must be something I'm not understanding, are you just saying that I made your posts look bad? Yes, that was the point, because I think that they were bad. They are bad because you didn't express your argument clearly. I don't need to use a sarcastic comment to show that, I could have got the exact same point across with a completely serious tone.

Does me making your posts look bad mean that I'm flaming you? Of course not. You are not your posts, and I don't think anyone would judge you for not arguing your point well. The underlying argument you were trying to present also is not limited to your posts. You might have had valid points but didn't express them well. That's all I was pointing it out.

Minisaurus · 2020-05-16 18:41:08

My first post in this thread was just a bait to start the discussion we are having
mutantdevle: Calling me toxic does not help in any way, you constantly disqualify me, that is ad-hominem fallacy, you are using over and over the same "argument" which is again a fallacy, ad-nauseam
skullz17: I understand your real intention in the other post, it was completely an ironic-destructive-criticism with derogatory intentions, disappointing

And regard of the previous thread, is up to John, and only John´s actions, to prove me wrong about what I think of his intentions

skullz17 · 2020-05-16 19:27:21

No you clearly did not understand my real intention. I didn't say a single bad word about you in my post, all I did was list things that you said yourself to show how they contradict. I wanted you to clarify what you were trying to say, which you did straight after. How is that destructive?

It might have been rude but don't call it derogatory, that's just dishonest.

mutantdevle

Minisaurus · 2020-05-16 19:33:39

Never in history mocking or disrupting was a constructive criticism
With your post you didn´t added anytihng good to the disscusion, you just made a disrespectful parody of my thoughts, and yes I call it derogatory (disrespectful attitude)

mutantdevle · 2020-05-16 19:39:39

Minisaurus I think it's clear that you're just not willing to listen to people and disregard pretty much everything we say for whatever reason you wish to cling to. Ironically the very same qualities Xeno is criticised for. It's also clear from your admission that you baited this discussion, your use of unnecessary terms like SJW, and your reference to logical fallacy's, that all you care about is winning arguments.

I don't believe for a single second that your increased presence on this forums is going to be a positive thing. That's honestly a shame considering your status as an ex-staff member would otherwise be valuable to discussions. I'm telling you straight up that both in this thread and the previous one you have shown some very negative qualities. It's up to you whether you want to listen to that, self reflect, and perhaps improve yourself. But I'm doubtful.

rat, Yoshi2018, John

Minisaurus · 2020-05-16 19:55:05

mutantdevle wrote:

to listen to people

Fallacy of composition

mutantdevle wrote:

for whatever reason you wish to cling to.

Straw man fallacy

mutantdevle wrote:

Ironically the very same qualities Xeno is criticised for

Ad verecundiam fallacy

mutantdevle wrote:

that all you care about is winning arguments.

false dilemma fallacy

mutantdevle wrote:

I don't believe for a single second that your increased presence on this forums is going to be a positive thing

ad ignorantiam fallacy

mutantdevle wrote:

That's honestly a shame considering your status as an ex-staff member would otherwise be valuable to discussions.

Ad conditionallis fallacy

There are a bunch of other fallacies there, but that is enough, I won´t be replying more of your fallacistic posts

John · 2020-05-16 20:01:11

Zombie3000 wrote:

...

First off, welcome back! Just a note that the Everybody Edits Unity project has been replaced with Everybody Edits Universe project, so if you see people referring to EEU they are most likely referring to the new Everybody Edits Universe project. You can opt into the closed beta by clicking the opt in button in the lobby. There's lots of information about what's going on with that in Joshua's (ByteArray) game development video logs, as well as what's on the forums. I encourage you to check the vlogs out, they have a lot of information in them.

TaskManager · 2020-05-16 20:05:14

Minisaurus wrote:

mutantdevle wrote:
to listen to people
Fallacy of composition
mutantdevle wrote:
for whatever reason you wish to cling to.
Straw man fallacy
mutantdevle wrote:
Ironically the very same qualities Xeno is criticised for
Ad verecundiam fallacy
mutantdevle wrote:
that all you care about is winning arguments.
false dilemma fallacy
mutantdevle wrote:
I don't believe for a single second that your increased presence on this forums is going to be a positive thing
ad ignorantiam fallacy
mutantdevle wrote:
That's honestly a shame considering your status as an ex-staff member would otherwise be valuable to discussions.
Ad conditionallis fallacy

wow someone spent a lot of time on wikipedia recently

Minisaurus wrote:

I won´t be replying more of your fallacistic posts unless you bring something worthful

fallacious

mutantdevle

Official Everybody Edits Forums

#1 2020-05-13 18:29:00

Question about the state of the game

#2 2020-05-13 20:18:50, last edited by Pqwerty (2020-05-13 20:35:00)

Re: Question about the state of the game

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Re: Question about the state of the game

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Re: Question about the state of the game

#5 2020-05-15 05:58:32, last edited by Pqwerty (2020-05-15 06:27:39)

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#7 2020-05-15 19:30:32, last edited by Minisaurus (2020-05-15 19:49:48)

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Re: Question about the state of the game

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Re: Question about the state of the game

#19 2020-05-16 18:41:08, last edited by Minisaurus (2020-05-16 19:25:51)

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Re: Question about the state of the game

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Re: Question about the state of the game

#23 2020-05-16 19:55:05, last edited by Minisaurus (2020-05-16 20:08:02)

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Re: Question about the state of the game

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