Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

2b55b5g · 2019-07-28 14:26:06

Yes, Onjit might be maf, but you’re only observing his last few posts, which isn’t enough.

Can you tell me why you think Onjit is mafia?

mutantdevle · 2019-07-28 14:30:40

Processor wrote:

Now that you say it... Why was Jawapa so eager to send Crybaby to heaven?

I mean, my natural assumption would be that by sending townie players to heaven that's how mafia get rid of us. Remember, they don't have a night kill so sending people to heaven is really their only way of getting rid of threats. That said, I must admit that I am trying to remind myself of why we all even consider Crybaby town in the first place. They had that initial unvote that was quite townie and they've also not wanted to go to heaven, but everything from there has just been neutral as far as I remember. Nothing too townie and nothing scummy. If I had to write out why I think each player is town without looking back at anything then I could probably produce more substance for people like Kira and Zelda than I do Crybaby tbh. I don't know if I've been giving crybaby a free pass the whole time because I've just passed him off as town and from there not really looked in depth at any of his posts. I've been autopilot defending him so I probably need to look at his iso in a minute to make sure he's actually genuine.

Crybaby wrote:

https://i.imgur.com/2ZMjKuW.png

Did anyone else here also notice the invisible text? I find it unlikely that I'd be the only one.

Processor wrote:

You admit that Onjit is in a lot of trouble now, simply because he hammered on that vote.
A scum Onjit would know how much trouble he would be in if he hammers a vote on a mafia member.

I don't believe he necessarily would. Remember, no one was really actively suspicious of him before that. He was going under the radar fairly well. He couldn't have predicted he'd face this much backlash today over the vote especially since a large portion of why he is considered scummy has nothing to do with his vote. In response to this post by Onjit I was going to make a post saying I intended to vote for him in this phase but ultimately I decided against it as I didn't want to distract from the conversation that was going on at the time. I wonder if, had I made such a post, would Onjit have hammered? I don't think he would've.

Processor wrote:

Side node - This weird manouver:

In what way is that weird? I was simply expressing that I was reconsidering. At the time I made my case I had so much evidence that I was extremely sure that Onjit was mafia. But then Onjit offered up an explanation that potentially refuted every single one of my points. Why wouldn't that make me revoke my previous opinion?

Minimania · 2019-07-28 14:39:08

mutantdevle wrote:

Did anyone else here also notice the invisible text? I find it unlikely that I'd be the only one.

I have no way to answer this. I wouldnt know. I wouldnt like to think you're the only one, but you're the only one that I can confirm have seen it

mutantdevle

ZeldaXD · 2019-07-28 14:41:42

!unvote

Onjit is L-1, dont want to risk a hammering

Minimania, Processor, mutantdevle, Onjit, 2b55b5g, TaskManager, Slabdrill

Processor · 2019-07-28 14:48:04

When Jawapa was persuading town to vote Crybaby or mutant, he put a little more emphasis on mutant, so under the two, I think mutant is a more likely mafia candidate.

NorwegianboyEE's argument that sending mutant or Crybaby to heaven is a good thing for town, is unlikely.
A) the mafia likely will lose before all "good" players have been sent to heaven
B) the mafia doesn't win unless they send 3 of their members to heaven (or a judgement day mislynch)

Therefore, I don't think Jawapa wanted to send good players to heaven. He wouldn't win by sending good players to heaven.

He was pretty hesitant to jump on the Zoey bandwagon. He did it because he had to, because he had told us he is open to lynching Zoey. And he did it in the last possible moment, when it was 100% sure that _someone_ was going to ? hammer.

A lot of people are saying "but everything Jawapa said could be a trick". Yeah it could, but mafia don't take unnecessary chances, because the tricks only work half the time. See how Jawapa didn't vote for Zoey until it was certain that Zoey is going to be lynched?

Jawapa framing Onjit is indicator that Onjit is town.

Mafia will need to persuade town to send their own members to to heaven. Mutantdevle helped mafia do exactly that.

Onjit is low hanging fruit for a mislynch. If Onjit is town and mafia has to pick someone to push for a mislynch, they will choose Onjit since he is an easy target.

Mutantdevle is doing right that.
Which is why he is here, being considered a mafia member.

!vote mutantdevle

Processor · 2019-07-28 14:51:51

mutantdevle wrote:

I don't believe he necessarily would. Remember, no one was really actively suspicious of him before that. He was going under the radar fairly well.

I had Onjit at the bottom of my Mafia list, so did mrjawapa and the majority of town iirc.

Onjit was going to be our lynch target today. I was sure of that before mrjawapa flipped

NoNK · 2019-07-28 14:53:47

With 11 alive, it takes 6 votes to send a smiley to HELL.

Onjit [4]: mutantdevle, NorwegianboyEE, slabdrill, peace

mutantdevle [2]: Onjit, Processor

Not voting [5]: Everyone else

This phase will enter overtime in 33 hours.

Mod notes:

It still smells like smoke.

Processor · 2019-07-28 14:53:53

Fixed.

Processor wrote:

NorwegianboyEE's argument that sending mutant or Crybaby to heaven is a good thing for town for mafia, is unlikely.
A) the mafia likely will lose before all "good" players have been sent to heaven
B) the mafia doesn't win unless they send 3 of their members to heaven (or a judgement day mislynch)

mutantdevle · 2019-07-28 14:54:34

Onjit wrote:

Here the main conflict is between whether to send Kirby (who was one of the many players who contributed nothing to the game but was almost lynched Hell-1) or someone that is much more town-leaning in their posts.

That wasn't the conflict at all... Kirby was considered just as town as both Crybaby and I. The conflict was whether we wanted the useful players in heaven to make a better decision on judgement day or if we wanted the useful players still in purgatory so that they can help solve the rest of the game. I think what ultimately sealed the decision was acknowledging that we have plenty of time before any judgement day would occur.

Onjit wrote:

Trytu's reads/posts were somewhat bizarre compared to other people in the thread but that was either due to inexperience with mafia or a language barrier. As a result I figured he was a reasonable candidate for a lynch.

Your first sentences here doesn't justify the second. If you put his bizarre reads down to being inexperienced and having a language barrier, and not that he was aligned with the mafia, why does that make him a reasonable candidate for a lynch?

Onjit wrote:

neither of them have much desire to be cleared of suspicion and to actually help town by being sent to heaven?

What suspicion did I need to clear myself of? At this time, literally everyone town read me. And you know full well by your comment's on Crybaby that I wanted to stay in purgatory to help the town here.

Onjit wrote:

Devlin is suspicious to me for a few reasons: Voting to send Jawapa to hell and then later on instigating a wagon to send Jawapa to heaven but never actually voting for him

You say this as though I had a sudden change of heart towards jawapa. I was not suspicious of jawapa when I originally voted for him. The reason I did was that he was guilty of the same thing Kirby was being voted for and I found it suspicious that Kirby received votes so quickly. As for the reason I didn't vote for jawapa, I've already explained that. What are your thoughts on my explanation?

Onjit wrote:

Only really starts participating in his usual manner (novellas) once he's directly questioned by Proc.

Incorrect. That started with my case on you which was before Proc started questioning me.

Onjit wrote:

I'll give reads on the rest "later" (some time within the next 200 hours)

I'm hoping that 200 either accidentally has an extra 0 or is just a joke.

Crybaby wrote:

As suspicious of you as I am/have been in this game, Onjit, I do feel like your posts today are sincere.

I don't.

What I wanted from you Onjit was to prove that you've been trying to solve the game alongside baiting people into thinking you're scummy. So far, all you've done is outlined the events of the game and even got that somewhat wrong and the small number of opinions you have expressed are all unoriginal. Put it this way: your reads list better be damn good and detailed.

mutantdevle · 2019-07-28 15:06:48

Crybaby wrote:

mutantdevle wrote:
Did anyone else here also notice the invisible text? I find it unlikely that I'd be the only one.
I have no way to answer this. I wouldnt know. I wouldnt like to think you're the only one, but you're the only one that I can confirm have seen it

This was more of a question to everyone else. If someone else did see this next and not mention it in any way then their reason as to why could be the difference between me town reading them or scum reading them.

Processor wrote:

When Jawapa was persuading town to vote Crybaby or mutant, he put a little more emphasis on mutant, so under the two, I think mutant is a more likely mafia candidate.

Alternatively, he saw me as a bigger threat to the mafia and wanted rid of me most.

Processor wrote:

NorwegianboyEE's argument that sending mutant or Crybaby to heaven is a good thing for mafia, is unlikely.

Why? Heaven is the only way that the mafia can get rid of strong players since they don't have a night kill.

Processor wrote:

He wouldn't win by sending good players to heaven.

Why not? If all the good players are in heaven then they can more easily trick the bad players into sending the mafia there as well. If you're only fighting to send mafia members to heaven then the strong town players you haven't gotten rid of yet will pick up on that and end your whole career. You're only thinking short term.

Processor wrote:

I had Onjit at the bottom of my Mafia list, so did mrjawapa and the majority of town iirc.
Onjit was going to be our lynch target today. I was sure of that before mrjawapa flipped

Yes, he was on a lot of people's lists. But no one was serious about him, that's the point. No one was vocalising any strong desire for Onjit to die. Just because you thought he'd be considered today doesn't mean he did.

Processor wrote:

Jawapa framing Onjit is indicator that Onjit is town.

You don't know that jawapa was framing Onjit. That is your opinion. Your opinion is not based on anything and does not decide probability like you seem to think it does.

You are so focused on this one factor that is at most slight proof that Onjit is town. You are yet to explain why you think it trumps all the other reasons that Onjit is considered scummy.

peace · 2019-07-28 15:42:11

actualy now checkign page 1 back and the OP this is quite hadr to win for both mis lynches are sooo not wroth how many mafia is in the game? (total)

peace · 2019-07-28 15:43:37

peace wrote:

actualy now checkign page 1 back and the OP this is quite hadr to win for both mis lynches are sooo not wroth how many mafia is in the game? (total)

oops its 5 forget what i said ok this is striaght forward **** dup mis lynches are in th ebenefit of mafia

Slabdrill · 2019-07-28 16:20:46

phew there aren't 5 pages this time

hi peace! you should probably read through all 611 posts it's kinda important

I'd just like to say that I didn't notice Crybaby's invisible text until they mentioned it. I think if I did, my reads related to the h2 lynch would've been different.

Norwee · 2019-07-28 18:16:08

I’d like to hear more from Kira and Taskmanager if possible.

Processor · 2019-07-28 18:18:11

mutantdevle wrote:

You don't know that jawapa was framing Onjit. That is your opinion. Your opinion is not based on anything and does not decide probability like you seem to think it does.

I don't know if Jawapa was framing Onjit?

mrjawapa wrote:

Onjit wrote:
!vote Jawapa
sure let's do this
Thanks fam

Jawapa explicitly thanks Onjit.
He is framing Onjit as the bad guy.
If he only wanted to thank a teammate, he would do so in mafia chat.

Jawapa framed Onjit. That's not my opinion. That's fact. It's based on a concrete post. You cannot dismiss it like that.

---

I have explained why I think it's more likely that Onjit is innocent and (double) WIFOM is not at play here through logical arguments, which you have not touched at all.

Norwee · 2019-07-28 18:27:00

Processor, i understand your point. But Mutant still has some good criticisms i would like to see addressed, which hasn’t happened. Onjit still hasn’t given us his list of townreads he keeps promising us. And neither has he explained what he hoped to achieve by "pretending" to be scummy.

mutantdevle

Minimania · 2019-07-28 18:32:13

how much time is left?

Norwee · 2019-07-28 18:37:57

28 hours-ish

2b55b5g · 2019-07-28 18:42:15

What is WIFOM

Norwee · 2019-07-28 18:45:41

2B55B5G TNG wrote:

What is WIFOM

Google:
"WIFOM is the dilemma that arises from trying to predict whether someone has made an optimal but expected choice, or a suboptimal but unexpected one. The term WIFOM (short for Wine In Front Of Me) is named for this scene in the 1987 movie The Princess Bride: Westley: "All right: where is the poison?"

2b55b5g · 2019-07-28 18:47:20

Eh ok. Still confused but I guess that's fine.

mutantdevle · 2019-07-28 18:55:35

Processor wrote:

Jawapa explicitly thanks Onjit.
He is framing Onjit as the bad guy.
If he only wanted to thank a teammate, he would do so in mafia chat.
Jawapa framed Onjit. That's not my opinion. That's fact. It's based on a concrete post. You cannot dismiss it like that.
---
I have explained why I think it's more likely that Onjit is innocent and (double) WIFOM is not at play here through logical arguments, which you have not touched at all.

Jawapa framing Onjit is not a fact whatsoever. If it was, you'd be able to definitively and objectively prove it. You cannot just say "this post means it's fact" because you can't prove the intended meaning of the post.

How do you know that jawapa's intention in that post was to frame Onjit rather than just a general friendly/jokey thanks? Mafia members do not consciously plan out every detail of every post they make. It is entirely plausible that jawapa intended no meaning behind his post whatsoever. Frequently, when I've been mafia in previous games, it has been very fun to watch town over analyse things that meant absolutely nothing.

Furthermore, if it is intentional, there is no way you can concretely rule out WIFOM as definitively as you have. It's not something that can be proven either way and hence whichever side you choose to believe is opinion.

I'd argue that given the mountain of evidence there is towards Onjit's scummy behaviour, it is more likely that he is not being framed. Additionally, anecdotal evidence of my experience playing mafia both here and on mafiascum would suggest that the technique of WIFOM is used far more commonly than actively trying to frame people.

Oh, and you want more evidence of Onjit being sketchy? I saw Onjit online twice today on 2 separate occasions. On the second occasion, I watched a 10 minute youtube video before refreshing the page and he was still online. I had hoped that he was writing a post in that time but quite clearly I guess this thread isn't important enough for him.

mutantdevle · 2019-07-28 19:00:59

2B55B5G TNG wrote:

Eh ok. Still confused but I guess that's fine.

Just watch this video:

2b55b5g, Norwee, Minimania, Slabdrill, Raphe9000

Processor · 2019-07-28 19:04:19

mutantdevle wrote:

Oh, and you want more evidence of Onjit being sketchy? I saw Onjit online twice today on 2 separate occasions. On the second occasion, I watched a 10 minute youtube video before refreshing the page and he was still online. I had hoped that he was writing a post in that time but quite clearly I guess this thread isn't important enough for him.

That shows he is inactive in mafia. So what?

@NorwegianboyEE what criticism would you like me to address?

Processor · 2019-07-28 19:12:16

mutantdevle wrote:

How do you know that jawapa's intention in that post was to frame Onjit rather than just a general friendly/jokey thanks? Mafia members do not consciously plan out every detail of every post they make. It is entirely plausible that jawapa intended no meaning behind his post whatsoever. Frequently, when I've been mafia in previous games, it has been very fun to watch town over analyse things that meant absolutely nothing.

He may have unintentionally framed Onjit as the bad guy. But he still framed him.

The subjective intentions behind the frame are irrelevant to the fact that he did frame him.

So how about this: Instead of overanalyzing individual sentences of mine, you focus on the overall points that I am making.

We're disagreeing on the meaning of the word "frame". I hope my posts have cleared up this confusion now and you now understand what I was trying to say.

Official Everybody Edits Forums

#601 2019-07-28 14:26:06

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#602 2019-07-28 14:30:40

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#603 2019-07-28 14:39:08

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#604 2019-07-28 14:41:42

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

!unvote

#605 2019-07-28 14:48:04

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#606 2019-07-28 14:51:51

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#607 2019-07-28 14:53:47

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#608 2019-07-28 14:53:53

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#609 2019-07-28 14:54:34

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#610 2019-07-28 15:06:48

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#611 2019-07-28 15:42:11

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#612 2019-07-28 15:43:37

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#613 2019-07-28 16:20:46

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#614 2019-07-28 18:16:08

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#615 2019-07-28 18:18:11

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

!vote Jawapa

#616 2019-07-28 18:27:00

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#617 2019-07-28 18:32:13

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#618 2019-07-28 18:37:57

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#619 2019-07-28 18:42:15

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#620 2019-07-28 18:45:41

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#621 2019-07-28 18:47:20

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#622 2019-07-28 18:55:35

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#623 2019-07-28 19:00:59

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#624 2019-07-28 19:04:19

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

#625 2019-07-28 19:12:16

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

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