ByteArray's weekly development vlogs!

2b55b5g · 2019-06-22 04:56:17

If a block is bad then why the heck would EE add it?

Every block has its way to use it.

Luka504 · 2019-06-22 05:12:55

Invisible portals are tools in a toolbox, just like any other block in the game. You wouldn't use a hammer to tighten a screw, and you wouldn't use a screwdriver to pound nails.

That same principle applies to invisible items. There are times where their visible counterparts outshine them, that is true, but to say that invisible items should be removed just because they're more easily abused is ludicrous. There's plenty of levels and gimmicks where invisible items are the only viable anwser. I mean, look at this creative level concept I've made; it would have never seen the light of day had it not been for the unique traits invisible items provide.

Really, it's not too hard to make invisible portals work. As long as they're properly marked with a backkground or decoration, most players will understand where they are located. Level designers who can't understand that rather simple concept are likely just going to create a bad level anyway, regardless if they use invisible portals or not.

AllenCaspe9510, Emily

HeyNK · 2019-06-22 12:31:42

The visible items always are better then the invisible counterparts. It's a mature way of thinking to use only visible items instead of whining about how a slightly visible item that you can see with your eyes ruins the appearance of the level. People have worked with this forever and levels were better quality.

Luka504 · 2019-06-22 13:42:15

HeyNK wrote:

The visible items always are better then the invisible counterparts.

Dude, I literally just showed you an example of a world that would be 10 times worse if visible portals were used instead of invisible ones.

Grilyon2, Emily

peace · 2019-06-22 13:44:21

HeyNK wrote:

The visible items always are better then the invisible counterparts. It's a mature way of thinking to use only visible items instead of whining about how a slightly visible item that you can see with your eyes ruins the appearance of the level. People have worked with this forever and levels were better quality.

invinsible portals who are obvious are always better

2b55b5g · 2019-06-22 14:12:33

HeyNK wrote:

The visible items always are better then the invisible counterparts. It's a mature way of thinking to use only visible items instead of whining about how a slightly visible item that you can see with your eyes ruins the appearance of the level. People have worked with this forever and levels were better quality.

Just admit that you don’t know how to use invisible things.

Norwee · 2019-06-22 14:22:13

I've used invisible portals to create awesome levels and experiences. If your level sucks because of invisible portals it means you are a bad level creator. It's not the invisible portal that is the problem.

mutantdevle, peace, Luka504, Aoitenshi, Minimania, Emily

Gosha · 2019-06-22 15:22:00

I think it's pretty clear that invisible portals are a good addition. It makes for a good gameplay, especially in levels where atmosphere is the main theme, blue eye-catching animated portals are annoying. It's rather hard to abuse it.
And invisible arrows are terrible, i hardly see good levels that are built around the idea of invisible arrows. Usually they are just trash. In other cases regular ones can be used.

Emily

HeyNK · 2019-06-22 15:26:17

I know how to use invisible blocks and portals. I just choose not to. Sometimes I do use invisible blocks though. I am not a bad level creator. I'm talking about other bad level creators. That's not a good thing we want to encourage. Just because you're good doesn't mean everyone is.

2b55b5g · 2019-06-22 15:38:54

Someone is bad doesn’t mean every one is bad

HeyNK · 2019-06-22 16:23:01

It does mean a majority is bad, and that outweighs the good.

Luka504 · 2019-06-22 16:31:01

Hun, if people are bad at designing levels, removing invisible portals won't suddenly make them good. They'll just make their levels **** some other way.

mutantdevle, Aoitenshi, Minimania, Emily

ShadowsEdge · 2019-06-22 16:33:33

Invisible portals are great in my opinion. Yeah they can be annoying at times, and sure they can easily be substituted for a regular portal, it's still versatile in the fact that it can let people decide how they want the "Portals" in their world to look. If the level creator keep the backround consistant for what a portal is, people will easily associate portals with it, and grow to understand it.

As for my opinion on whether they should be removed or not, EE is a sandbox game: It's sole purpose is to encourage creativity amongst it's users. What you're suggesting is to remove an item because "people use it badly," so we shouldn't encourage them to use it, but EE, just like any other sandbox game, is meant to inspire and encourage creativity, and to be a place where people can just mess around with the tools provided, or try to make something cohesive for people to enjoy. That fact isn't going to change just because someone said that people are using the item in a different way than you do, or want them to do.

Sensei1 · 2019-06-22 16:40:11

HeyNK wrote:

The visible items always are better then the invisible counterparts. It's a mature way of thinking to use only visible items instead of whining about how a slightly visible item that you can see with your eyes ruins the appearance of the level. People have worked with this forever and levels were better quality.

That's just not true though. No matter how right you might be about people not knowing how to use these tools, they have their uses. Luka's world is a perfect example.

▼Some worlds using this stuff

That being said, I don't think you're wrong otherwise. It's very hard to notice if an invisible item is being annoying in your world, since you as the creator already know its location. I don't really consider myself a bad world builder, but I've messed up with invisible items many times.

However, this isn't just a problem with insivible stuff, it's a problem with absolutely everything in this game. It is not easy to build good worlds.
I've created bad and messy art, but I thought it looked great because I knew what it was trying to represent.
I've created annoying gameplay, but I didn't realise it because I was able to skip all the annoying parts using godmode.
I've created confusing worlds, but I as the creator understand the logic, so how could I know if it's confusing or not?
I've created boring worlds, but hookjumps were new to me when I made them.

We could try to change this on EEU by giving creators less freedom, but idk if that's what we really want. EE right now isn't like a game with a level editor, it's a sandbox. In mario maker you can choose a theme for a level, but in EE you can create a theme for a world. That's why we need these tools. We don't have any door items. We don't have any moving UFO items. We have to create them, and invisible stuff is honestly pretty great for that. We just are bad at using them.

We could think of other solutions. Maybe limit the blocks of new players to easier tools. Maybe create interactive guides and tutorials for building.

skullz17 wrote:

They should just make a better lobby system or find other ways to promote worlds with good level design

^Also a great idea

I personally love the freedom EE has, even if it means that creating will be difficult. It's the only reason I enjoy building worlds on EE, because it gives my work a chance to stand out from all the other worlds.

ShadowsEdge, Luka504, Norwee, mutantdevle, Teds, 2b55b5g, Grilyon2, skullz17

Teds · 2019-06-22 22:21:23

For me personally, I don't typically use regular portals in gameplay because they could alter minimap art. This might also be the case for other players too. A simple solution could be to make all action blocks invisible on the minimap like decorations.

Emily

Kira · 2019-06-22 22:58:52

It all comes down to creativity in the end. Invisible blocks are actually very needed in some cases. I don't mind them at all, except when people overuse them the wrong way. Then yeah, it's very annoying.

Andymakeer · 2019-06-23 06:02:57

i want invisible decoration for EEU please

skullz17 · 2019-06-23 18:02:50

Sensei1 wrote:

Maybe limit the blocks of new players to easier tools. Maybe create interactive guides and tutorials for building.

I really like this. One idea that I had a while ago was a levelling system that would help new players learn how to use all the action blocks. Instead of buying the blocks with energy, you would unlock them by levelling up, up to a cap. I haven't thought of a way for players to earn xp. Once you hit the cap, you would get any new action blocks for free. Cosmetic items would still be bought with an in-game currency. I think this idea is also a step towards improving the way EE's economy works which imo doesn't make a lot of sense atm, especially when you look at how a lot of other popular games do it and how it often seems to be an important factor in driving engagement for those games. In contrast, energy in EE only encourages logging in every so often, not actual engagement.

I also think there should be a library of short videos explaining what each action block does and examples of how to use them. Each time you level up, the videos corresponding to the blocks you've just earned should show up and be accessible from the client. This isn't exactly a building tutorial but gives some guidance on how the blocks could be used.

peace · 2019-06-23 18:14:58

no you shoudl just be bale to buy all tehe action blocks and then watch teh videos you sugested

skullz17 · 2019-06-23 19:29:10

peace wrote:

no you shoudl just be bale to buy all tehe action blocks and then watch teh videos you sugested

The levelling system would be designed so that it is quicker to unlock all the action blocks in the game than it would be to buy them with energy (at least when there are a large number of action blocks in the game). It should be able to be easily completed in a couple of days.

The idea is trying to tackle multiple problems at once. Two of the problems are that it takes too long for a new player to unlock all the blocks, and that the number of action blocks that exist make it overwhelming for the new player to try and learn them all. At first I thought that all the action blocks should be available from the start, but I think there is value to making the player learn in increments. If they have to watch a bunch of videos right from the start to understand what's going on, it might be too much. But if you lead them through slowly, and make the experience feel rewarding (maybe even give them a random cosmetic item at each level up), it probably feels a lot better. It's like an extended tutorial. One other problem that this tries to solve is the economy problem I mentioned. This actually forces the player to play the game in order to unlock the desired items, which is the usual economy model for most popular games, whereas in EE you just get energy by waiting, and all you need to do is login every now and then to spend it. I hope that a similar approach is considered for cosmetic items and the in-game currency.

Another way to do it would be to just make it an actual tutorial campaign with action blocks as rewards at each tier, but this seems more time consuming and difficult to make. If it is done this way, rather than guide the player through the world with text, use the videos as tutorials while the worlds just act as examples of the blocks in action, while also being the "stages" that the player must advance through to unlock all the blocks.

Sensei1

ByteArray · 2019-06-24 04:27:01

Hey, just wanted to quickly let everyone know that I've been reading the discussion that's been going on here, and it's helpful to hear everyone's thoughts on these issues! As long as it's kept civil, these kinds of discussions are a good opportunity for us to understand everyone's mindset towards these things. And even though we ultimately can't make everyone happy, we'll be looking for reasonable compromises for these issues that also consider the overall direction we intend to take the game.

Anyway, I've also uploaded this week's vlog! It's primarily focused on what I'm working on with my other current game projects, but there's some stuff about EEU in the first minute or so of the video. Essentially, we've continued making progress, but we've been running into some web browser inconsistencies and UI rendering glitches that's required us to slow down a bit to figure out what's the best way to continue. We should hopefully have some more visible progress by next Sunday, once we figure out this stuff. Kentiya is also working on some new blocks that ought to be done by then, once he figures out what direction to go with their design.

AllenCaspe9510, ZeldaXD, Snowester, Atikyne, skullz17, Piotrek, Sensei1, Anch, Emily

peace · 2019-06-24 06:42:40

skullz17 wrote:

peace wrote:
no you shoudl just be bale to buy all tehe action blocks and then watch teh videos you sugested
The levelling system would be designed so that it is quicker to unlock all the action blocks in the game than it would be to buy them with energy (at least when there are a large number of action blocks in the game). It should be able to be easily completed in a couple of days.
The idea is trying to tackle multiple problems at once. Two of the problems are that it takes too long for a new player to unlock all the blocks, and that the number of action blocks that exist make it overwhelming for the new player to try and learn them all. At first I thought that all the action blocks should be available from the start, but I think there is value to making the player learn in increments. If they have to watch a bunch of videos right from the start to understand what's going on, it might be too much. But if you lead them through slowly, and make the experience feel rewarding (maybe even give them a random cosmetic item at each level up), it probably feels a lot better. It's like an extended tutorial. One other problem that this tries to solve is the economy problem I mentioned. This actually forces the player to play the game in order to unlock the desired items, which is the usual economy model for most popular games, whereas in EE you just get energy by waiting, and all you need to do is login every now and then to spend it. I hope that a similar approach is considered for cosmetic items and the in-game currency.
Another way to do it would be to just make it an actual tutorial campaign with action blocks as rewards at each tier, but this seems more time consuming and difficult to make. If it is done this way, rather than guide the player through the world with text, use the videos as tutorials while the worlds just act as examples of the blocks in action, while also being the "stages" that the player must advance through to unlock all the blocks.

yeah and oyu think levelign up snd getting much action blcoks/hour is better then?

AllenCaspe9510 · 2019-06-24 10:18:43

How about increasing the price of invisible portals?

Edit,
Actually, I feel like the reason why people are raging to remove the invisible portals is because of the endless spam of it. I think it would be necessary to bring back the Invisible Portal(+1) But instead of +1, +4 would be better with a high price so that the players will consider before buying it.

ASDruska · 2019-06-24 10:57:01

AllenCaspe9510 wrote:

How about increasing the price of invisible portals?
Edit,
Actually, I feel like the reason why people are raging to remove the invisible portals is because of the endless spam of it. I think it would be necessary to bring back the Invisible Portal(+1) But instead of +1, +4 would be better with a high price so that the players will consider before buying it.

what people i only see one insignificant BabyRage r also SCREW your buyable portals it makes things WORSE

skullz17 · 2019-06-24 15:23:48

peace wrote:

yeah and oyu think levelign up snd getting much action blcoks/hour is better then?

Yes it's a lot better for the reasons explained above. To reiterate: 1) it's quicker, 2) forces the player to actually play the game 3) feels rewarding because it is a progression through stages, rather than just waiting for energy. Didn't mention this before but it also seems easier to adjust as new blocks are added.

If you're trying to say that it's still a high density of information, I am only suggesting the concept and I am sure the developers could find a balance where it doesn't feel too slow but not too fast either. Also, don't forget that you are free to take the time to experiment with your new blocks before you try to level up again, so you can go through it at your own pace.

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#51 2019-06-22 04:56:17

Re: ByteArray's weekly development vlogs!

#52 2019-06-22 05:12:55, last edited by Luka504 (2019-06-22 05:14:01)

Re: ByteArray's weekly development vlogs!

#53 2019-06-22 12:31:42

Re: ByteArray's weekly development vlogs!

#54 2019-06-22 13:42:15, last edited by Luka504 (2019-06-22 13:42:31)

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#55 2019-06-22 13:44:21

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#56 2019-06-22 14:12:33

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#57 2019-06-22 14:22:13, last edited by Norwee (2019-06-22 14:22:27)

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#58 2019-06-22 15:22:00

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#59 2019-06-22 15:26:17

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#60 2019-06-22 15:38:54

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#61 2019-06-22 16:23:01

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#62 2019-06-22 16:31:01

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#63 2019-06-22 16:33:33

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#64 2019-06-22 16:40:11, last edited by Sensei1 (2019-06-22 19:19:05)

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#65 2019-06-22 22:21:23

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#66 2019-06-22 22:58:52

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#67 2019-06-23 06:02:57

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#68 2019-06-23 18:02:50

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#69 2019-06-23 18:14:58

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#70 2019-06-23 19:29:10

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#71 2019-06-24 04:27:01

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#72 2019-06-24 06:42:40

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#73 2019-06-24 10:18:43, last edited by AllenCaspe9510 (2019-06-24 10:33:10)

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#74 2019-06-24 10:57:01

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