[99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

PiotrGrochowski · 2019-05-02 13:07:22

azurepudding wrote:

You could just allow letters as part of the "number," or ID, up to 3 characters. This greatly increases the total IDs without needing any more digits, keeping it easy to read.
1, 2, 3, 123, a, b, c, abc, 12c, a23, f92, pg3, etc.
That's more than you'll ever need without cramming more numbers onto the blocks. It also opens the possibilities of short message options- ID of YES and NO. Allow four digits and you can get BLUE and RED, UP and DOWN, and so on. It could be a way to write messages with multiple blocks without needing to be on a sign.

duplicate

azurepudding · 2019-05-02 13:37:13

PiotrGrochowski wrote:

azurepudding wrote:
You could just allow letters as part of the "number," or ID, up to 3 characters. This greatly increases the total IDs without needing any more digits, keeping it easy to read.
1, 2, 3, 123, a, b, c, abc, 12c, a23, f92, pg3, etc.
That's more than you'll ever need without cramming more numbers onto the blocks. It also opens the possibilities of short message options- ID of YES and NO. Allow four digits and you can get BLUE and RED, UP and DOWN, and so on. It could be a way to write messages with multiple blocks without needing to be on a sign.
duplicate

here

PiotrGrochowski · 2019-05-02 14:00:57

azurepudding wrote:

PiotrGrochowski wrote:
azurepudding wrote:
You could just allow letters as part of the "number," or ID, up to 3 characters. This greatly increases the total IDs without needing any more digits, keeping it easy to read.
1, 2, 3, 123, a, b, c, abc, 12c, a23, f92, pg3, etc.
That's more than you'll ever need without cramming more numbers onto the blocks. It also opens the possibilities of short message options- ID of YES and NO. Allow four digits and you can get BLUE and RED, UP and DOWN, and so on. It could be a way to write messages with multiple blocks without needing to be on a sign.
duplicate
here

Uuh the idea in this topic is about base64 which utilizes digits, uppercase letters, lowercase letters, plus sign and the slash.

Anatoly · 2019-05-02 14:06:26

Maybe support 16th numeric system?

123456789ABCDEF?

switch number #ff0000

PiotrGrochowski · 2019-05-02 14:18:05

Anatoly wrote:

Maybe support 16th numeric system?
123456789ABCDEF?
switch number #ff0000

12-digit base64 has already been mentioned and would allow about 4722366482869645000000 switches.

Grilyon2

azurepudding · 2019-05-02 15:18:23

PiotrGrochowski wrote:

azurepudding wrote:
PiotrGrochowski wrote:
azurepudding wrote:
You could just allow letters as part of the "number," or ID, up to 3 characters. This greatly increases the total IDs without needing any more digits, keeping it easy to read.
1, 2, 3, 123, a, b, c, abc, 12c, a23, f92, pg3, etc.
That's more than you'll ever need without cramming more numbers onto the blocks. It also opens the possibilities of short message options- ID of YES and NO. Allow four digits and you can get BLUE and RED, UP and DOWN, and so on. It could be a way to write messages with multiple blocks without needing to be on a sign.
duplicate
here
Uuh the idea in this topic is about base64 which utilizes digits, uppercase letters, lowercase letters, plus sign and the slash.

yep, which is in that post i linked, except the lowercase. Didn't think it'd work well on tiny blocks, which could make a 6 look like b. Then some low hanging letters might not fit, like g and j.

PiotrGrochowski · 2019-05-02 16:49:10

azurepudding wrote:

PiotrGrochowski wrote:
Uuh the idea in this topic is about base64 which utilizes digits, uppercase letters, lowercase letters, plus sign and the slash.
yep, which is in that post i linked, except the lowercase. Didn't think it'd work well on tiny blocks, which could make a 6 look like b. Then some low hanging letters might not fit, like g and j.

That's true in EE.

But in EEU that's another story.

Links to posts:

All 64 characters of base64 on a 24×24 EEU switch: https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 18#p747518
Up to 6 digits fitting on a 24×24 EEU switch: https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 09#p747509
12 digits fitting on a 24×24 EEU switch: https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 35#p747535

azurepudding · 2019-05-02 23:01:27

PiotrGrochowski wrote:

azurepudding wrote:
PiotrGrochowski wrote:
Uuh the idea in this topic is about base64 which utilizes digits, uppercase letters, lowercase letters, plus sign and the slash.
yep, which is in that post i linked, except the lowercase. Didn't think it'd work well on tiny blocks, which could make a 6 look like b. Then some low hanging letters might not fit, like g and j.
That's true in EE.
But in EEU that's another story.
Links to posts:
All 64 characters of base64 on a 24×24 EEU switch: https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 18#p747518
Up to 6 digits fitting on a 24×24 EEU switch: https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 09#p747509
12 digits fitting on a 24×24 EEU switch: https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 35#p747535

Lowercase looks fine there actually.

Though 4 digits and up look way too cramped. Especially 6 and up.. it just becomes a mess of pixels. Four digits could be doable I guess. If we can use both upper and lowercase letters alongside numbers, that's several millions of combinations, whereas numbers along would only permit less than a ten thousand. At this number I'm not sure if a fourth digit is even necessary tbh, letters provide more than five times as much than numbers can.

peace · 2019-05-03 09:48:57

i thuink switches aren tmade for letters just 4 or 5 number soon an EEU siwtch would be good i guess (100K combinations is fine i guess)

Freckleface · 2019-05-03 14:55:33

Except why would you need readability for all 99999 of your switches? We could just do what portals do and have no number on them until you mouse over and get a tooltip.

peace · 2019-05-03 15:46:07

Freckleface wrote:

Except why would you need readability for all 99999 of your switches? We could just do what portals do and have no number on them until you mouse over and get a tooltip.

exept you dont need portal id bu you NEED switch id

Freckleface · 2019-05-03 19:14:19

peace wrote:

Freckleface wrote:
Except why would you need readability for all 99999 of your switches? We could just do what portals do and have no number on them until you mouse over and get a tooltip.
exept you dont need portal id bu you NEED switch id

Do you really? Most instances where 99999 switches are needed are for complex systems. We would still have 0-999 for human interfaces, anything past that would be used for the system itself.

PiotrGrochowski · 2019-05-03 19:21:15

In EEU with the right rendering it's perfectly possible to get 5 and 6 digits as https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 09#p747509 demonstrates.

azurepudding · 2019-05-03 22:13:44

Freckleface wrote:

peace wrote:
Freckleface wrote:
Except why would you need readability for all 99999 of your switches? We could just do what portals do and have no number on them until you mouse over and get a tooltip.
exept you dont need portal id bu you NEED switch id
Do you really? Most instances where 99999 switches are needed are for complex systems. We would still have 0-999 for human interfaces, anything past that would be used for the system itself.

So after 4 or 5 digits, they'd just appear invisible? I guess that could work. 3-4 digits is more than enough for normal needs anyway.

PiotrGrochowski wrote:

In EEU with the right rendering it's perfectly possible to get 5 and 6 digits as https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 09#p747509 demonstrates.

yeh but it looks bad. We use commas to break up larger numbers for a reason- plus they're squished down there.

Koya · 2019-05-04 04:15:06

I was thinking about this and if you really needed more switches the block wouldn't show IDs above 999 and instead will show the ID with a sign-esk pop-up (might go below the block to be out of the way).

But again - is there any real need for more than 1000 switches?

PiotrGrochowski · 2019-05-04 06:34:05

azurepudding wrote:

PiotrGrochowski wrote:
In EEU with the right rendering it's perfectly possible to get 5 and 6 digits as https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 09#p747509 demonstrates.
yeh but it looks bad. We use commas to break up larger numbers for a reason- plus they're squished down there.

commas in large numbers look terrible and I would like to never see them on Earth. also the numbers have subpixel rendering for 5 and 6 digits.

azurepudding · 2019-05-04 09:22:45

PiotrGrochowski wrote:

azurepudding wrote:
PiotrGrochowski wrote:
In EEU with the right rendering it's perfectly possible to get 5 and 6 digits as https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 09#p747509 demonstrates.
yeh but it looks bad. We use commas to break up larger numbers for a reason- plus they're squished down there.
commas in large numbers look terrible and I would like to never see them on Earth. also the numbers have subpixel rendering for 5 and 6 digits.

What's easier to identify,

3572057

or

3,572,057?

Counting commas is easier than counting digits, but with even larger numbers it's easiest to go by word form or scientific notation.. which still takes up too much space.

Koya

PiotrGrochowski · 2019-05-04 09:29:00

azurepudding wrote:

PiotrGrochowski wrote:
azurepudding wrote:
PiotrGrochowski wrote:
In EEU with the right rendering it's perfectly possible to get 5 and 6 digits as https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 09#p747509 demonstrates.
yeh but it looks bad. We use commas to break up larger numbers for a reason- plus they're squished down there.
commas in large numbers look terrible and I would like to never see them on Earth. also the numbers have subpixel rendering for 5 and 6 digits.
What's easier to identify,
3572057
or
3,572,057?
Counting commas is easier than counting digits, but with even larger numbers it's easiest to go by word form or scientific notation.. which still takes up too much space.

The former is better because it actually looks like a number and it looks much nicer.

peace · 2019-05-04 10:12:09

Koya wrote:

But again - is there any real need for more than 1000 switches?

yes 1K is too less

skullz17 · 2019-05-04 12:08:48

If we can agree that 1000 switches are only really needed for systems, then at that point you should just use a binary system. 1000 switches gives you 125 8bit memory slots (each having a value from 0-255), 62 16bit slots (0-65535), 31 32bit slots (0-4294967295), etc. It would probably take less time and effort to learn how to make a binary system and make one than to try to make a huge inefficient system.

PiotrGrochowski · 2019-05-04 12:19:24

skullz17 wrote:

If we can agree that 1000 switches are only really needed for systems, then at that point you should just use a binary system. 1000 switches gives you 125 8bit memory slots (each having a value from 0-255), 62 16bit slots (0-65535), 31 32bit slots (0-4294967295), etc. It would probably take less time and effort to learn how to make a binary system and make one than to try to make a huge inefficient system.

1000 switches gives 125 bytes of information.

A 16×32 character display requires 64 bytes of information. That's more than half of all the switches. Add more character displays and, CONTENT WARNING****.

peace · 2019-05-04 15:14:39

PiotrGrochowski · 2019-05-04 15:38:23

peace wrote:

https://i.snag.gy/Q90oPi.jpg

Relatable, I wanted to expand my character editor further but the 1000 switch number limit is a very small limit in such case.

skullz17 · 2019-05-04 20:09:04

PiotrGrochowski wrote:

skullz17 wrote:
If we can agree that 1000 switches are only really needed for systems, then at that point you should just use a binary system. 1000 switches gives you 125 8bit memory slots (each having a value from 0-255), 62 16bit slots (0-65535), 31 32bit slots (0-4294967295), etc. It would probably take less time and effort to learn how to make a binary system and make one than to try to make a huge inefficient system.
1000 switches gives 125 bytes of information.
A 16×32 character display requires 64 bytes of information. That's more than half of all the switches. Add more character displays and, CONTENT WARNING****.

This kind of thing is hard to argue against. Your character display is obviously trying to do more than just convey information, otherwise you would just use a much smaller font. Also, for most applications you don't need custom text, there would only be so much information you would need to convey so you could just do separate fixed messages, unless the point of the world was a character editor.

So someone could say they want to make a 200x200 2bit bitmap with switches (which is just a more extreme version of what you are making). At what point do we just tell the person that their idea is pointless and too niche to support?

PiotrGrochowski · 2019-05-04 20:24:22

skullz17 wrote:

PiotrGrochowski wrote:
skullz17 wrote:
If we can agree that 1000 switches are only really needed for systems, then at that point you should just use a binary system. 1000 switches gives you 125 8bit memory slots (each having a value from 0-255), 62 16bit slots (0-65535), 31 32bit slots (0-4294967295), etc. It would probably take less time and effort to learn how to make a binary system and make one than to try to make a huge inefficient system.
1000 switches gives 125 bytes of information.
A 16×32 character display requires 64 bytes of information. That's more than half of all the switches. Add more character displays and, CONTENT WARNING****.
This kind of thing is hard to argue against. Your character display is obviously trying to do more than just convey information, otherwise you would just use a much smaller font. Also, for most applications you don't need custom text, there would only be so much information you would need to convey so you could just do separate fixed messages, unless the point of the world was a character editor.
So someone could say they want to make a 200x200 2bit bitmap with switches (which is just a more extreme version of what you are making). At what point do we just tell the person that their idea is pointless and too niche to support?

In case of EE, up to 90000 switches are needed due to world sizes. In case of EEU, the world sizes could be much larger, but it's possible to get 2^72 switches with 12-digit base64 (using strong subpixel rendering) so there's no worry even with 68719476736×68719476736 worlds and it's in theory possible to do even more with marquee scroll or circular scroll (both suggested before).

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#51 2019-05-02 13:07:22

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#52 2019-05-02 13:37:13

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#53 2019-05-02 14:00:57

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#54 2019-05-02 14:06:26

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#55 2019-05-02 14:18:05

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#56 2019-05-02 15:18:23, last edited by azurepudding (2019-05-02 15:19:36)

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#57 2019-05-02 16:49:10

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#58 2019-05-02 23:01:27

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#59 2019-05-03 09:48:57

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#60 2019-05-03 14:55:33

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#61 2019-05-03 15:46:07

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#62 2019-05-03 19:14:19

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#63 2019-05-03 19:21:15

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#64 2019-05-03 22:13:44

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#65 2019-05-04 04:15:06

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#66 2019-05-04 06:34:05

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#67 2019-05-04 09:22:45

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#68 2019-05-04 09:29:00

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#69 2019-05-04 10:12:09

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#70 2019-05-04 12:08:48

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#71 2019-05-04 12:19:24

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#72 2019-05-04 15:14:39

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#73 2019-05-04 15:38:23

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#74 2019-05-04 20:09:04, last edited by skullz17 (2019-05-04 20:09:14)

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

#75 2019-05-04 20:24:22

Re: [99999 Switches] 9,999 and 99,999 can come - but is it worth it?

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