Is life fair?

Sensei1 · 2015-12-11 16:38:12

How I see fairness: If you give something, you get something also (and the other way around). In life, giving would be feeling bad and getting would be feeling good. I guess life would be fair if these two were around the same amount, but it's kinda hard to measure how good/bad you feel.

From one person's view life is fair for him/her if he/she feels the same amount of good and bad feelings during life. However, if we look at the whole world, I think it's fair if one person suffers for another person to feel good. As I said earlier though, you can't really measure feelings that well, so I don't know if life is fair or not BUT I strongly disagree with the statement "fairness doesn't exist".

EDIT: When I say you can't measure feelings I mean that we aren't able to do it at the moment. I do think it could be possible though!

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A general philosophy topic would be fun btw

Zumza · 2015-12-11 17:26:33

Pyromaniac wrote:

Zumza wrote:
Complaining without a solution is worthless.
Let's be honest. What kind of solution is going to be reached here? If you're really that concerned, go do something substantial like volunteering at a soup kitchen or working with organisations such as habitat for humanity and try to make life a little more fair in ways that actually help.

It's not efficiently to take this subject only from one point of view.
Some people don't even have a job. And others got 2 and they're not even paid for the second one? Does this sounds fair to you?

Pyromaniac

Pyromaniac · 2015-12-11 18:09:54

What are you talking about? I agree that unemployment, poverty, hunger etc. are all unfair. That was the entire point of my post. I was responding to you saying that instead of complaining we should come up with a solution. I agree, but I don't think it will be done in this thread. So I suggested that if you really want to make a difference, go volunteer and help people who have been victims of this unfairness

Zumza

XxAtillaxX · 2015-12-11 18:37:36

Pyromaniac wrote:

XxAtillaxX wrote:
Life itself is predetermined to a degree with the exception of quantum fluctuations on an atomic scale.
So, rather than 'answering' this philosophically it'd be more worthwhile to pose the question of free will in physical reality.
You can fairly accurately predict human nature, we are effectively complex machines that are easily misguided.
I'd highly suggest reading about the Cogito Model and criticism of it. (https://url.atil.la/unosh)
oooooooooooooooomg I rolled my eyes so hard when I read this that I fell out of my chair.
That being said, I'm with Onjit. These threads eventually end up with people parroting the same basic ideas over and over, using words that nobody would ever actually use in everyday conversation.
That being said x2- No. I dont think it is. You guys are talking about whether or not life SHOULD be fair in some perfect world governed by high minded theories and ideas. Just look around at the REAL world right now. Life clearly isn't fair, and as far as I can tell theres not really any rhyme or reason as to why terrible things happen to certain people, while others are amassing billions.

I've had everyday philosophical conversations related to this, and it has occurred to me that studying reality scientifically has much more merit than pondering over it with a philosophical pretense.
And, I do agree. There is not too much to debate on this topic, scientifically or philosophically, hence why I'm quicker to dismiss the more fruitless latter.

If you're talking directly about power or wealth, it's quite clear that it isn't fair in the sense as equally distributed and/or distributed to those which need it.
When I read OP's question it gives the impression whether sporadic events in a persons' life truly exist, not whether societies or cultures have an equitable quality.

Tako · 2015-12-11 19:00:17

Pyromaniac wrote:

Zumza wrote:
Complaining without a solution is worthless.
Let's be honest. What kind of solution is going to be reached here? If you're really that concerned, go do something substantial like volunteering at a soup kitchen or working with organizations such as habitat for humanity and try to make life a little more fair in ways that actually help.

This topic is designed neither to complain nor to offer a solution, but to see if we have misunderstood what fairness is.

Is life in the broadest sense fair? That is, all of humanity, from its birth until its death? It is impossible to answer this question from observation, obviously, but I think it's definitely possible. In this context, it's absurd to say a single human - minuscule in proportion - should have a perfectly fair life.

But over a very long period of time, I think that cosmological balance will find a way. And by that I mean laws such as preservation of energy, preservation of matter, etc. I've always had a sneaking suspicion that there is the preservation of good and evil, for the very first injustice (whenever that happened) did not go unnoticed, nor did the first good deed. At first, it seems absurd to think something so arbitrary and local as "good" and "evil" could have anything to do with the cosmos, but is it potentially possible that good and evil are manifestations of some form of energy?

Atilla I look forward to your perspective on this crude theory, seeing as it is very materialistic in nature.

Come on, guys, think outside the box. If you're just going to say "uh trump has more mony than me and hes stupid so lifes unfair" then get out; everyone knows that.

Pyromaniac · 2015-12-11 19:38:34

...Did anyone say that? If you read what I wrote on the previous page, I said that these theories are all fine and good, and this high minded horse kisses :^) (there comes a point when you have to ask yourself if what you're saying even makes sense anymore ) , while annoying, is mostly harmless.

My problem with it, however, is that you can talk all you want about the cosmos, and the "energy" that is good and evil (...?), and whether or not society has a way of balancing out, but without grounding yourself in humanity you lose sight of the fact that people, REAL PEOPLE, are suffering.

This isn't fair.

Im a little wary of what you're saying because I dont want anyone to come away from this topic, with all of its big words and meaningless syntax, and think that "oh tako said society will balance out in the end so who cares if people are dying?". Its kind of trivializing their situations, dont ya think?

The very idea that we can sit here and debate this in comparative comfort demonstrates my point. We need to live in the moment, not up our own a$$.

Abelysk · 2015-12-11 19:44:47

To be or not to be? That is the question.

Pingohits

XxAtillaxX · 2015-12-11 19:48:02

The human condition in general has changed significantly and so has our values along with it.
I would like to think that humanity is evolving it's sense of compassion, hope and intelligence. If so, then we will be able to [more] accurately judge the fairness of the past.

I think it would be correct to state that there are benefits fairness as well as unfairness, as both ensure our reproduction, the very reason we've evolved to be kind and fair.
For example, it's unfair to the rest of the species on this planet that we exist and are ruining their population and habitats.
That unfair circumstance is the only reason we have the capability of being fair, or unfair, ourselves.

It would be very narcissistic, and from what we can observe, unlikely, to claim that the universe favoured our existence.
We are extremely insignificant organisms on a speck of dust, and we've only recently been able to begin to wonder about the universe.
Understandably, it seems extremely lucky all of the scientific laws allow us to exist, however our understanding of the universe is fairly little.

I've heard an analogy of this, which I'll paraphrase.
A toad born in a pond must think it's incredibly lucky the pond exists, however it doesn't have the ability to contemplate the rest of the world surrounding it.
Without the pond, the toad mightn't exist and therefore the toad suffices that the pond must exist in it's favour - not by circumstance.

The concept of being fair has no value or significance to the universe beyond the laws by which everything functions.
Everything is fair to the extent that we, and everything else, seem to obey the laws of science as we currently understand it.

@Pyromanic: I agree with you completely, nobody has the capability of answering this question, and I've seen people try to convolute it in the past.
You could argue that I'm doing so, I assure you I'm not trying to sound smart or edgy.
I'm not taking a wildly differing stance on this question. I have a suspicion that you've grown annoyed with these people, and are targeting your anger towards us.
I agree that the 'energy' comment makes no sense.

And it's true, real people are suffering, nobody is denying that.
We have a privilege to be able to discuss potentially meaningless things like this. Though, just because people are suffering doesn't mean we shouldn't be living our own lives.
It doesn't detract anything from someone whose starving that, on a game people are discussing useless philosophical matter.

Tamashiimizu · 2015-12-11 20:40:30

If life is fair? Of course not!
I could be eating chocolate, but I'm not. Thus, from abductive logic shenanigans life isn't fair. Simple as that.

Edit: Ok, i realized I sounded stupid. What I mean is, these concepts are fluid. For decades scientist are struggling to categorize (or not) virus as a life form. We can't give life a proper definition.
Morals and ethics are even more fluids, but don't get me started on this. Then, fairness is even more fluid then mroal and ethics. So, why bother trying to grasp answers that are beyond our understanding?

Processor · 2015-12-11 21:09:50

Well looking at human lives, they all look very different, they consist of many incomparable aspects (happiness, money, love, morals, freedom & privacy, security, friends & family, (dis)abilities, education, food, WiFi, ...) and you can't compare them without applying your set of values to them. These values vary between cultures and are changing over time.
I'd say that yes, life is unfair, but not in a way that you could order the lives of people in some sort of hierarchy from best to worse.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

Life itself is predetermined to a degree with the exception of quantum fluctuations on an atomic scale.
So, rather than 'answering' this philosophically it'd be more worthwhile to pose the question of free will in physical reality.

If life is determined, then our will (free or not) is meaningless. That also means that our existence (as anything more than collective energy) is meaningless. Therefore the outcome of our actions wouldn't even matter at all. It doesn't make sense to go on and base our moralities upon this outcome because morality would be meaningless too.

That makes sense, but I am a human being, with a set of preexisting instincts, which make me want to preserve myself and my society, and I'd much rather like to pretend that my life and decisions do mean something.

Bimps · 2015-12-11 22:51:01

life is as fair as you want it to be

Pyromaniac · 2015-12-11 23:56:10

XxAtillaxX wrote:

@Pyromanic: I agree with you completely, nobody has the capability of answering this question, and I've seen people try to convolute it in the past.
You could argue that I'm doing so, I assure you I'm not trying to sound smart or edgy.
I'm not taking a wildly differing stance on this question. I have a suspicion that you've grown annoyed with these people, and are targeting your anger towards us.
I agree that the 'energy' comment makes no sense.
And it's true, real people are suffering, nobody is denying that.
We have a privilege to be able to discuss potentially meaningless things like this. Though, just because people are suffering doesn't mean we shouldn't be living our own lives.
It doesn't detract anything from someone whose starving that, on a game people are discussing useless philosophical matter.
Last edited by XxAtillaxX (Today 15:01:10)

Oh, really, could you tell? I've had some bad experiences with some people who talk smart and seem to say all the right things, and know the right vocabulary. But when it comes down to it are just full of hot air and don't actually care about the issues they debate. Instead they are just using them for, like you said, sounding smart or edgy.

I'm not angry or saying that you two are necessarily like this, I just think the whole topic is a little silly (and I didn't appreciate takos "then get out", lol).

The rest of your post I can respect. Although I'm not saying there's anything wrong with talking about stuff like this. I justndidnt agree with takos "misfortune is equalized by the cosmos" idea. Or at least what I could understand of it, lmao.

I typed this on my phone btw, fair warning if it doesn't make sense.

Insanity · 2015-12-12 00:42:58

Depends on what you think is fair

for me, ye life's pretty fair

AmdS · 2015-12-12 02:30:36

Life is fair if you make them fair.

WMWMWMWMWMWMWMWMWMWM · 2015-12-12 03:13:06

Life is not fair. The luck starts when your born. You can be a bug or animal or if your lucky a human (congratulations your lucky) Then the next part is how your parents are either your a accident, abandoned or loved. Then its if your parents are rich or poor. (your lucky if your poor then turn rich) Then its if you have any medical diseases, they are curable, or healthy. Then its how you learn. Then the people you meet. Then what you want to do once your finished with learning, Then its best once you get to make your own choices. Then you turn old and die. Some people get to live a full life, many things will never be born and just be microscopic cells that are alive and you are lucky to have been a cell that multiplied to you.
The answer of life isn't god or any religion its rebirth if in a billion years later you are a particle of a new rising species. Or the answer of life is 42

Tako · 2015-12-12 03:40:16

Pyromaniac wrote:

Oh, really, could you tell? :p I've had some bad experiences with some people who talk smart and seem to say all the right things, and know the right vocabulary. But when it comes down to it are just full of hot air and don't actually care about the issues they debate. Instead they are just using them for, like you said, sounding smart or edgy.

The person you are describing reminds me of this song. It's pretty chill. But a little bit different.

Pyromaniac wrote:

I just think the whole topic is a little silly (and I didn't appreciate takos "then get out", lol).

My comment was not the most respectful, but surely you understand my reason for saying it. It reminds me of the math topic; it gets tedious seeing all these people saying "1+1=2" or something else surface-level when you're trying to go a little bit deeper. Clearly, they don't care about the topic and want to lead it elsewhere. My point to the "get out" comment was not to sound "holier than thou", but to encourage deeper thought than "1+1" and "life is unfair because of what I see".

Pyromaniac wrote:

I justndidnt agree with takos "misfortune is equalized by the cosmos" idea. Or at least what I could understand of it, lmao..

I don't know if life is fair or unfair. I highly doubt anyone else does. That was just a stab in the dark; a bizarre thought experiment and nothing else. I apologize if I sound pretentious or condescending; that's just how I have been conditioned to speak. Go ahead and tear me down. The door's wide open. Nothing I say is absolute truth.

If you disagree because it marginalizes people who face injustice, that's fine by me. Some truths are hard to grasp: just look at this conversation about free will. The pervading theory (that there is no free will) has deep moral consequences, yet we still talk about it. What makes it okay is the fact there is line in the sand between what is true and what you believe. Processor has shown this already:

Processor wrote:

That makes sense, but I am a human being, with a set of preexisting instincts, which make me want to preserve myself and my society, and I'd much rather like to pretend that my life and decisions do mean something.

We all have notions of the truth, but sometimes it's hard to see because we're scared of it. Frederick Douglass wrote about this in his autobiography:

Frederick Douglass wrote:

“The more I read, the more I was led to abhor and detest my enslavers. I could regard them in no other light than a band of successful robbers, who had left their homes, and gone to Africa, and stolen us from our homes, and in a strange land reduced us to slavery. I loathed them as being the meanest as well as the most wicked of men. As I read and contemplated the subject, behold! that very discontentment which Master Hugh had predicted would follow my learning to read had already come, to torment and sting my soul to unutterable anguish. As I writhed under it, I would at times feel that learning to read had been a curse rather than a blessing. It had given me a view of my wretched condition, without the remedy. it opened my eyes to the horrible pit, but to no ladder upon which to get out. in moments of agony, I envied my fellow-slaves for their stupidity. I have often wished myself a beast. I preferred the condition of the meanest reptile to my own. Any thing, no matter what, to get rid of thinking! It was this everlasting thinking of my condition that tormented me. There was no getting rid of it. It was pressed upon me by every object within sight or hearing, animate or inanimate. The silver trump of freedom had roused my soul to eternal wakefulness. Freedom now appeared, to disappear no more forever. It was heard in every sound and seen in every thing. It was ever present to torment me with a sense of my wretched condition. I saw nothing without seeing it, I heard nothing without hearing it, and felt nothing without feeling it. It looked from every star, it smiled in every calm, breathed in every wind, and moved in every storm.”

tl;dr: 1) shame on you; 2) knowledge is painful

So, answer this: are you afraid of the truth? If life is indeed fair, how would you feel? Should we stop pursuing truth because it has the potential to ruin our current values, and promises no solution? That's what you say about this conversation:

Pyromaniac wrote:

Im a little wary of what you're saying because I dont want anyone to come away from this topic, with all of its big words and meaningless syntax, and think that "oh tako said society will balance out in the end so who cares if people are dying?". Its kind of trivializing their situations, dont ya think?

Even if people worshiped me to the point of blind faith (which they don't) and arrived at the conclusion that injustice shouldn't be corrected (which I don't advocate), if it is true then why is it bad?

tl;dr for the whole post: why should I care about the implications of truth? Isn't truth and understanding the thing which leads to solutions?

Pyromaniac · 2015-12-12 06:09:33

Tako wrote:

Go ahead and tear me down. The door's wide open. Nothing I say is absolute truth.

I'm not trying to tear you down. Sorry if I came on too strongly.

Tako wrote:

Even if people worshiped me to the point of blind faith (which they don't) and arrived at the conclusion that injustice shouldn't be corrected (which I don't advocate), if it is true then why is it bad?

Im not saying they would believe it necessarily because you said it, but because big words have a way of making a point seem more poignant. Just look at John Green. The fault in our stars is honestly ridiculous but people love it because they think its "deep", and "moving", and "intellectual". Bad example, but hopefully you get my drift.

As for the "why is it bad" comment. Its bad because even IF what you say is true, we still should make an effort to do our part for people less fortunate than ourselves. Just because the cosmos might course correct 400 years from now doesn't mean we should just ignore everyone who needs us.

While I'm on the subject, do you have any examples of tragedy (unfairness) being corrected down the line? I'd honestly be curious. I can't think of any off the top of my head (Racism? Sexism? Rape? Muder...?) but then again, I'm not much of a history buff.

Tako wrote:

So, answer this: are you afraid of the truth? If life is indeed fair, how would you feel? Should we stop pursuing truth because it has the potential to ruin our current values, and promises no solution? That's what you say about this conversation:

I'm not afraid of life being fair. If somehow this screwed up world will fix itself in a billion years, then by all means, let there be fairness! That means that there is hope!!! But I was just thinking of going up and saying to one of the family members of a Paris bombing victim (for example), "Hey! Dont worry about this, the cosmos is gonna fix everything. I mean, obviously you'll be dead by then....and your son is dead already....but hey at least in a kajillion years there will be some sort of balance!".

And it doesn't ruin my values. They're fine, thank you. Morality and this theory can coexist.

We shouldn't NOT pursue this question, but (and I say this for me personally. I repeat, I am not talking badly about you or anyone else who enjoys this type of thing) I'd much rather not expend too much energy thinking about this

Does this make me less intellectual? The people I mentioned before would say "absolutely". And I'm fine with that.

In the words of Jeff Winger from Community "Why do you have to take everything that happens to us and shove it up its own booty?"

EDIT: I hate how it censors a$$ to "booty"

Onjit · 2015-12-12 06:16:05

Onjit wrote:

these sorts of questions all devolve into a philisophy 101 circlejerk

i am a prophet

Pyromaniac

Luka504 · 2015-12-12 08:23:16

For me,life is fair and lucky.
Not saying life is fair towards everybody.
There willl always be beggars who cant afford bread,and rich people who can buy anything
Fair?
Nein.
Its kinda like perspective.
If youre on Earth,looks like the moon is spinning around earth,but on the moon,you will think the earth spins around de moon.
Life itself is not fair to everybody.But people view it as bad/good from perspective.

Official Everybody Edits Forums

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