The art of killing art.

Dazz · 2015-10-20 11:32:10

Hello! Just came here to make some sort of request and some points, the thread is adressed towards the EE staff and possible future updates.

First, I want to say that I appreciate the giant effort the team made/makes and how far this game got, it's impressive and
it's simply amazing how well they work in team and organise, I admire that, not to menetion how involved they are even now, I was sure this wont
last much but I was wrong, from now on I'll hope.

Ok, well, my few points and request is based on a long, lost little sub-community of builders based on art. I'm saying long lost because
no one seems to care about this anymore. For the last few months I've been working on a thread as some of you know, trying to show you all
how easy is to unintentionally destroy someone's hard work and an entire sub community of users.

You might ask yourselves wth I'm talking about. Most of those players have either stop making art levels or, worst, they quit the game
but no one seems to care much or why. I know, I know, since this game was not made for art, nor most of you even seem to care about these kind of levels, who cares, right? no wonder.
BUT, things were not always like this and maybe some of you remember that once, these levels were highly appreciated and inspiring, exactly because it was never easy to build such levels in a game made for something else.

I made an experiment few days ago by opening 10 of my ''best'' levels for few days to see the reaction of users.

Here are some conclusions, apart from users and old friends that know me by now and trust me, most of the new users were either impressed, liking, favoriting or mentioning how much they like the levelswhile semi-new users were either insulting me, even multiple times in various levels and most of them insisted that I used EEartist or bots and some even said that I am a bot as an insult and lack of trust.

Now, if you look at this thread ''Random Art and Creative Levels'' there are over 200 levels posted there, most of them made by crews and little groups, look at those names and tell me how many of those you see there today as active builders? I will go with almost NONE! and that fine and cool because after five years people grow up and move on.

But here's something to think about, why do you think there aren't new ones there of the similar quality? except one or two, maybe?

I'm not saying what it should be done, all I'm saying, something must be done, because if in that list of 200 levels we count just one user that was lost because all his work was thrown away by the rest of the community and the staff during these years, you might as well throw another 200++ possible users in the next five years. If you continue to ignore requests, underappreciate them or allowing their work to be
compared with machines without giving them any credit (of trust at least) and more than five bricks/season.

I hope this opens the subject to discussion in a creative way for those who are interested in these kind of levels and opens the mind of the staff towards this kind of creativity on EE more or at least some attention to this sub-category of users in future.

AmdS, Falk, sthegreat, SirJosh3917, Br0k3n, Tamashiimizu, Insanity, madiik, Minimania, Jedpogi, NegaStrife, AsurcH, Badoosh, Anch, Stagecrew, Krosis, CatoniC, CommanderKitten, Onjit

Nou · 2015-10-20 11:47:44

As posted in this thread we do want to cater to all different kinds of players; it'd be really sad to see a part of the community go in such a way.

I'm not sure what has caused this decline in interest in art, not being an art guy myself I haven't experienced it. But to me it seems to be part of the natural evolution of the game. It's changing, and new waves of players have different needs. As far as I've been able to tell the art levels have always been a niche market and with a relatively small player base it's only logical the niche market has decreased as well.

My question to you is, what do you feel is causing it and how could it be "resolved" ?

P.S.
Your request for the ability to be able to disable minimap preview from lobby has not gone unheard, it's still in the planning.

CatoniC, Swarth100, Krosis, Falk, Minimania, Dazz

Norwee · 2015-10-20 12:18:08

Nou wrote:

P.S.
Your request for the ability to be able to disable minimap preview from lobby has not gone unheard, it's still in the planning.

How about the ability to disable minimap ingame as well.

Swarth100, Krosis, Falk, Nou, Minimania, Sensei1, Dazz, Onjit, iPwner

Onjit · 2015-10-20 12:57:40

NorwegianboyEE wrote:

How about the ability to disable minimap ingame as well.

I've wanted this for a while, would help with a lot of worlds that use portals to give the illusion of movement, that is wasted because the minimap gives it away.
Also useful for exploration-y type worlds

Swarth100, Tamashiimizu, Dazz

Dazz · 2015-10-20 13:57:42

Nou wrote:

As posted in this thread we do want to cater to all different kinds of players; it'd be really sad to see a part of the community go in such a way.
I'm not sure what has caused this decline in interest in art, not being an art guy myself I haven't experienced it. But to me it seems to be part of the natural evolution of the game. It's changing, and new waves of players have different needs. As far as I've been able to tell the art levels have always been a niche market and with a relatively small player base it's only logical the niche market has decreased as well.
My question to you is, what do you feel is causing it and how could it be "resolved" ?

P.S.
Your request for the ability to be able to disable minimap preview from lobby has not gone unheard, it's still in the planning.

I'm not exactly sure either, you might be right about the natural evolution too since until quite recently the (ex) staff wouldn't listen much the global community let alone certain groups, I guess everybody just went with the idea that certain things deserve more attention and especially because the rest of the users are a majority with a ''bigger voice'' and without realising, in time, a chunk of cummunity is gone missing.

I agree with you about the niche market but for everyone to stop just like that must be a reason if not more.

Obviously for me a big reason would be bots like EEartist. New users were so amazed to see art levels without criticising or without ever doubting for two obvious reasons, they have no idea such bots exist yet and they don't see everyday such levels, while older users were convinced such levels are like ''impossible'' to even build by hand, this alone made in my opinion some of these users to stop wasting hours or days building, even if what they do is actually something they really enjoy, somehow those maps lost their value thanks to these bots.

Another big problem are the tools and colors, over the years there were so many created, yet nothing special for this category, only random ''use-whatever-you-think-will-go-fine-for-your-art like tool, such as decoration, crowns or keys as something extra as color or inovative'',
while these levels were appreciated just because they were hard to make, having some extra tools such as ''fill'' tools or
certain basic pre-made shapes such as circles, squares or a way to fast measure distances, would really save hours and hours
of time, using tools or wheel of colors just like the actual background. I think this would actually things MORE difficult for whoever wants to build realistic looking art or just keep it simple with whatever colours they need. In the end it's better to have them and use them when in need than not having them.
Right now is not quite such a big deal anymore because there are quite a big number of bricks available but between normal bricks and BG bricks there is quite a big difference on the minimap and there are still gaps of colors and textures.

Another part and this is very important in my opinion and this is not just for art but the whole community, especially in this game, based on creativity, the most important thing is for the staff to oficially (in time) recognize levels and post them as they are created in public places such as FB or EEBlog (posting them on categories would make this even better), anywhere, IMO it shows to the players they are acknowledged and appreciated, even better, if you let them to suggest some of these levels you'll know exactly it's what the community likes.

But above all is attention for the effort, as little as it is, every game I play, is all about having much, getting more in a short amount of time, it creates addiction and interest, as an example, one can really wait YEARS to get a special smiley, the spawn of attention can get lost in just months if not weeks, another one that comes to my mind would be; making few easier ways to make it to the top once in a while because building levels for yourself is dumb. As an example, having campaings levels with over 10.000 likes is...simply crazy, what will happen in a year and 20-30 campaing levels more? I pity the poor new user, and the rest of the users actually that even dream to get 1000 likes anytime soon.

Encouraging users. I was surprised to see in the last competitions how creative users can be, even those without known skill to art actually did surprisingly well.

I admit that I'm surprised you did not forget my request about the ability to disable the map, being so caught up in work. Thank you! I appreciate.

CatoniC · 2015-10-20 14:38:06

lol @Nou found ur profile pic while in biology class..searched up black hole and boom, its a Nou

▼Hidden text

Prodigy, AmdS, Falk, SirJosh3917, Br0k3n, KingFudge, Minimania, Weirdoverse, Koya, Jedpogi, Anch

Abelysk · 2015-10-20 15:03:30

Dazz wrote:

most of them insisted that I used EEartist or bots

Although this isn't a good thing for people to say, it proves you are a good artist and that's what matters ^^

Dazz

Saturn · 2015-10-20 15:11:20

Elizabeth53999 wrote:

lol @Nou found ur profile pic while in biology class..searched up black hole and boom, its a Nou
▼Hidden text

LOL That is his hiding place. Go poke him now.

First Hide Place: http://prntscr.com/8tbtnb

Calicara · 2015-10-20 15:48:39

Dazz I think the problem is exactly as you say. To build art in EE is difficult, especially for people who aren't artistically inclined, because of the sheer amount of time it takes to make something quality, and because even when a person makes something quality it's authenticity is doubted upon by a skeptical community.

The solution is simple, but not easy. The thing about EE is that it has a lot of potential. There are still quality active artists, some are just lesser known because they either do not play often or because they do not share their work. I just met a user the other night, Bladeninji who's amazing at art, but since he isn't looking to impress others I doubt he is very well known. If you want to increase the amount of quality art on EE, then you would need to organize and create a movement which promotes the type of art you are looking for.

For example, you could make a thread to showcase artists. You could offer small user bombs to get their showcased on the lobby. You could ask users to shoot "The Making of..." videos on Youtube.

Some examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLqmuy6iz0U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzmDaUOWj-Q

However, I tack this with the warning that it will be difficult to engage users of anykind in this type of building. It is a difficult process that may often feel as if it is not worth the time. I, myself, am only an average artist. I do not make art on EE because I go through a lot of trial and error with color and takes to long to fill in one part of the map with a single color only to realize I want another. And so to make simple change like background/foreground color often ends up taking more time than the drawing itself. No doubt others have run into this problem. And/or the world I want to fill is so large I end up starting a piece, and then quit because I feel simply overwhelmed, or it isn't coming out right and it would take too long to start over. It's much more efficient for me to use programs like Pixaki which have more tools that make it easier for me to experiment.

That being said, if EE had said tools maybe making pixel art would be easier. But then comes the question of, is it worth it? I don't mean to demean you Dazz, because you are an amazing artist and I have always admired you. And I know your views on art, that it should be for oneself and not so much to impress others. But for me personally, sometimes I don't feel like making art in EE is worth my time. It has a relatively small playerbase, and as you have already mentioned you often times have unwary users doubt the validity of your work. So it's one battle to make it, and another to defend it. Furthermore you'll have a much smaller audience, and you cannot import/export your finished image to really post it anywhere. You can take a screenshot, but that's about it. EE is a very contained game, in which what you make in EE stays in EE, and I don't think that's always a good thing.

I commend your efforts to want to increase the amount of quality art, but I'm not sure it's practical with a game like EE. If you want to make a change I think you need to put in the effort to express those ideas to others, otherwise you'll just be a single voice lost in a sea of players.

P.S. This is also not to say you don't already do some of these things. I know you already have a showcase topic. But rather if you keep doing what you're doing things might get better eventually. If not, then maybe it's a cause not worth pursuing.

Dazz

Abelysk · 2015-10-20 16:29:52

Calicara wrote:

Bladeninji who's amazing at art, but since he isn't looking to impress others I doubt he is very well known.

He's well-known among some users.

Krosis, Minimania, Firecrackericebreak, STD

Bobyy · 2015-10-20 16:57:34

Well one thing that would help is maybe have blocks that can help with in game art or maybe for shading objects so they can look nice on the minimap.

Dazz

Calicara · 2015-10-20 18:23:02

Bobyy wrote:

Well one thing that would help is maybe have blocks that can help with in game art or maybe for shading objects so they can look nice on the minimap.

I agree and disagree. Boh managed to create a plethora of amazing maps with only the current tools. It's more about player interest, rather than game content.

Krosis, skullz17

Evilbunny · 2015-10-20 19:42:26

I saw like 3 of your levels recently and I was wondering what you were doing.

You'd think that with all of these blocks and shades we'd be seeing more artists, but sadly not too many have popped up.

Dazz

Dazz · 2015-10-20 20:25:04

Itsmeandersonlol wrote:

Dazz wrote:
most of them insisted that I used EEartist or bots
Although this isn't a good thing for people to say, it proves you are a good artist and that's what matters ^^

I could have sworn that someone was going to say this Everytime during the last few years when someone complained about this problem instead of finding a solution it was always easier to say: this proves how god of an artist you are...sure it sounds like a nice thing but really while levels are open and most of the players accuse you of cheating or insult you and leave, no matter how good or bad of an ''artist'' you are, because after a short while it makes it hard not get annoyed, it gets harder and quite useless to make other levels.

Calicara wrote:

Hi Calicara, long time no see thank you!
About those less known users such like your friend, I think they are less known exactly for the same reason, they would share their work but the levels are lost between other levels as always and no one gives a damn about the effort the make. I don't want to increase the quality nor impose any kind of style, that's exactly what makes it so special, everyone has their own special way to build worlds, all I want is a little updating for this category of users.
Considering that there are actually almost no users left in this game to build such levels, it's late to bother in trying to organize anything big, the only thing it might not be too late to make is simply to create some tools, to make things easier and for the staff to find in time some solutions for the problem with authentication, that could be made simple in at least 3 ways if not more. And I'm sure too, without a doubt things with tools would be easier ofc. without them just like you said it gets overwhelming, especially with big maps.
Pixaki seems interesting, quite similar with EE I never heard of it, I will try it someday, ty
Time worth...idk,,,in the end almost nothing online is time worth, the are many ups and downs everywhere, a big one is to change one of your favorite relaxing place after five years

ZeldaXD · 2015-10-20 21:01:30

Nou wrote:

P.S.
Your request for the ability to be able to disable minimap preview from lobby has not gone unheard, it's still in the planning.

Anyone else thinks that this is a terrible idea?

Abelysk · 2015-10-20 21:05:29

ZeldaXD wrote:

Nou wrote:
P.S.
Your request for the ability to be able to disable minimap preview from lobby has not gone unheard, it's still in the planning.
Anyone else thinks that this is a terrible idea?

Don't see how.

Krosis · 2015-10-20 21:08:55

wans't the maximum amout of users on the same IP logged in 5? how could you be in 10 worlds at the same time?

Dazz · 2015-10-20 21:33:48

ZeldaXD wrote:

Nou wrote:
P.S.
Your request for the ability to be able to disable minimap preview from lobby has not gone unheard, it's still in the planning.
Anyone else thinks that this is a terrible idea?

Not really, it would be a good option and a way to encourage users to actually play the levels instead of passing them just because they look bad or it's just art.

Arkonagames wrote:

wans't the maximum amout of users on the same IP logged in 5? how could you be in 10 worlds at the same time?

Arkonagames wrote:

wans't the maximum amout of users on the same IP logged in 5? how could you be in 10 worlds at the same time?

I don't know, I think it's limited to just two same IP/same level and unlimited in different levels, I can open at least 12 pages with the same account in different levels of mine at least. Idk sorry

Krosis

shadowda · 2015-10-20 23:56:15

am i the only one who never looks at the map before entering?

CommanderKitten, hummerz5, Schlog, madiik, Zoey2070

Terrasher · 2015-10-21 00:37:38

shadowda wrote:

am i the only one who never looks at the map before entering?

I almost always look at the map to make sure it's not some hotel or art world with a weird title.

And to see if I already played the world before.

Falk

PaulinhoCanari · 2015-10-21 01:08:11

Canari

STD · 2015-10-21 01:22:51

PaulinhoCanari wrote:

Canari

Nobody cares about you or your Youtube channel. Get off of the forums.

Falk, Jedpogi

skullz17 · 2015-10-21 18:57:26

Arkonagames wrote:

wans't the maximum amout of users on the same IP logged in 5? how could you be in 10 worlds at the same time?

You can be in as many worlds as you want, but you can have a maximum of 5 from the same IP in the same world.

Dazz

tentacleTherapist · 2015-10-21 22:48:23

[Not reading the rest of the posts btw] Of course ee isnt an art game, it never claimed to be, the point of ee was it was open to anything and we as a community made it an art game. I was thinking about this the other day, EE has gone through many different stages of art with different notable users, genesic art back in 2010, you and bee doing pure minimap, realism such as boh, shifting now to more ingame and aesthetic art. This is just a collection of thoughts btw idk where I am going, but art is harder on EE now, Boh and I were talking the other day and we both agreed that with all of the choice now it is much easier to just use an art program to make your art instead of making in ee. EE actually taught me a lot about art and I thank it greatly for making me the artist I am today. Idk I don't think you can stop a societal change in ee, there is less motivation for people to be artists now however it is most likely also multi-causal as you have purely a change in trends these days, namely ingame art. Idk as I said this is just a collection of thoughts as being dyslexic I didn't want to take 20 mins to make sure I had the meaning of the original post correctly as I am busy atm, but yeah, if that made any sense at all?

Dazz

Minimania · 2015-10-21 23:04:33

Why would new users bother with art if it's going to take a year to get all of the blocks, or 5 dollars just to have them temporarily?
Think about it.

Insanity, Dazz

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#1 2015-10-20 11:32:10, last edited by Dazz (2016-03-07 02:25:27)

The art of killing art.

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Re: The art of killing art.

#3 2015-10-20 12:18:08

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#5 2015-10-20 13:57:42, last edited by Dazz (2015-10-20 13:59:17)

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