A Religious Christmas

Zoey2070 · Before February 2015

xputnameherex wrote:

Zoey2070 wrote:
xputnameherex wrote:
@Twipply: You just had to come into this topic, didn't you?
I say "real" because Christmas wasn't started as something for people to give gifts to each other, it was started to celebrate the birth of Jesus. So, although both are real, that is what I meant, and I think everyone understood that.
Giving gifts is pagan. Just so you know.
[So are Christmas Trees.]
Also, it's only insulting if you see it as such.
Gift giving on Christmas comes from the giving of Myrrh, Frankincense, and gold to the baby Jesus.

Pagan.

...ancient Roman festival...December 23....private gift-giving, continual partying...
The renewal of light and the coming of the new year was celebrated in the later Roman Empire at the Dies Natalis of Sol Invictus, the "Birthday of the Unconquerable Sun," on December 25.
27 BC?AD 476/1453
Jesus. 7?2 BC/BCE.

So Gift giving (on 'Christmas', aka, December 25) came before Jesus.

'Modern scholars debate whether the December 25 date of Christmas was selected to correspond with the Roman festival of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti or "Birthday of Sol Invictus."'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus

The earliest evidence of the celebration on
December 25 of a Christian liturgical feast of the birth of Jesus is from the Chronography of 354 AD.

Dies Natalis of Sol Invictus, December 25th, was around before Christmas. Dies Natalis of Sol Invictus had giftgiving.
By the transitive property, that means Giftgiving on December 25th came before Jesus.

32OrtonEdge32dh · Before February 2015

dominator3000 wrote:

I am one of the few people that know what festivus is.

AMG HIPSTER ALERT
Good job Zoey and Twipply for introducing facts into this topic.

The only people who don't know what Festivus is are either under 12, super-religious, or a vegetable. Or a Republican, for that matter.

Twipply · Before February 2015

xputnameherex wrote:

I say "real" because Christmas wasn't started as something for people to give gifts to each other, it was started to celebrate the birth of Jesus. So, although both are real, that is what I meant, and I think everyone understood that.

Seems like Zoey handled this.

xputnameherex wrote:

Jesus was born, but other religions argue if he was God, so yes, he was born.

Claim without source, thus worthless.

xputnameherex wrote:

I'm assuming you're an atheist here, otherwise you'd be a hypocrite.

Of course I am.

xputnameherex wrote:

One thing you should know: Never insult someone's religion. My beliefs may differ from yours, but that doesn't mean I have to insult you. Someone's religion is someone's religion, if no one believed in it then it wouldn't exist anymore.

An idea is not exempt from ridicule, insult, or challenge just because it comes from religion.

scienceguyz · Before February 2015

KingOfTheOzone wrote:

Christmas can hardly be called a religious holiday anymore. Look at the way its commercialized. Going through a month of shopping, baking, and getting gifts for other people really isn't a good way to celebrate Jesus' birthday is it? (I'm not religious either)

Yes, too commercial. Just like charlie brown said.

xputnameherex · Before February 2015

@zoey: I said today. Ask any priest why we give gifts today and he will mention what I said.

@twipply: unable to look for a source right now, but it is in some historical books.

you want to know how much of the world is religious? You aren't going to end anything, thousands of more intellectual people have argued on both sides.

32OrtonEdge32dh · Before February 2015

xputnameherex, just because it's in a book doesn't make it true. If I publish a book where the only sentence is "Atheism is the one true way," does that make it true?
...
Yes it does

xputnameherex · Before February 2015

32OrtonEdge32dh wrote:

xputnameherex, just because it's in a book doesn't make it true. If I publish a book where the only sentence is "Atheism is the one true way," does that make it true?
...
Yes it does

Its in a textbook which is worldly recognized, like the Romans wrote it, even though they didn't believe in him. Not just some children's book.

TheGreenTroll · Before February 2015

The reason why I actually celebrate christmas, or "Jul", as it is called in Sweden, is because it was our Scandinavian ancestors that first celebrated the type of jul/christmas as we know it.

But what I'm celebrating during jul/christmas, is of course my belief in the trinity. Although, the religious aspect isn't that influent when my family celebrate, it's there.

So, I'm basically celebrating my heritage, my religion and my family.

Twipply · Before February 2015

xputnameherex wrote:

you want to know how much of the world is religious? You aren't going to end anything, thousands of more intellectual people have argued on both sides.

I don't intend to end anything by myself. I hope that one day the combined efforts of many will lead to a more rational and logical world where science and reason reign supreme. If I can help one person escape the clutches of ignorance, indoctrination, and fear, then I've done good with my time.

Sanguine · Before February 2015

I really doubt there were "thousands of intellectual people" arguing on -both sides-... much rather thousands of intellectual people trying to argue on one side and a blatantly ignorant mass reciting one-plus-thousand year old scripture on the other.

In your opening post you say that the way you celebrate Christmas is the "real" way. You're inviting everyone like-minded to discuss this. But what is there to discuss when everyone shares the same opinion (or is supposed to, apparently)? This arrogance is misplaced.

So what I basically get is that you want some kind of "****-rubbing" from your fellow christians; you want to read your own opinion and noone else's, preferably.

This strikes me as slightly weird, because you'd most likely only try to exclude other opinions if you knew you can't properly engage in a discussion because you are lacking arguments / facts. Furthermore, the hostility towards everyone who isn't like you leads me to believe that you have felt a lot of grief because of such discussions in your life. Trying to defend one's own ignorance isn't easy I guess, I am not jealous of you.

xputnameherex · Before February 2015

I laughed at that post, I'd say you either are Twipply or you admire him. Anyway....

You seem to think that everyone who believes in a god is stupid, which doesn't make sense, considering until not too recently not believing in a god was virtually unheard of. Even today, not nearly as much of the world is Athiest. And according to you, those people are the only smart people ever. And we don't only rely on Scripture, there are many modern day miracles.
I said "real" as in "original", I explained that before. And there could be much to discuss on the topic, it just seems that no one here is as religous as me.

If I didn't want to read any other opinions I wouldn't be writing this.

I have not excluded any facts, and I am confused as to why you think I am being hostile. I literally said eralier in this topic that I respect your beliefs, and that I encouraged you to repect mine. I would like to know where I have been hostile. Also, you literally just cursed about my beliefs, so you are being a hypocrite. According to your signature, that shows weakness. Again, not being hostile, just pointing this out.

Last edited by xputnameherex (Dec 28 2011 3:08:03 pm)

Zoey2070 · Before February 2015

xputnameherex wrote:

I'd say you either are Twipply or you admire him.
...until not too recently not believing in a god was virtually unheard of. Even today, not nearly as much of the world is Athiest.

First paragraph: Sanguine is just a nubby friend of Twipply's.

Second paragraph:

'The first individuals to identify themselves as "atheist" lived in the 18th century'
That's the 1700's. Doesn't seem all too recent to me.

'According to one estimate, about 2.3% of the world's population are atheists, while a further 11.9% are nonreligious.'

That's 14.2 percent.
'ideas that would be recognized today as atheistic are documented from the Vedic period and the classical antiquity.'

Vedic period ended at about 150 BCE, so the idea of atheism has been around for a long time.

Twipply · Before February 2015

xputnameherex wrote:

I laughed at that post, I'd say you either are Twipply or you admire him. Anyway....

He wishes he was me.

xputnameherex wrote:

You seem to think that everyone who believes in a god is stupid, which doesn't make sense, considering until not too recently not believing in a god was virtually unheard of. Even today, not nearly as much of the world is Athiest.

An opinion having majority does not make it correct and does not mean it isn't stupid.

xputnameherex wrote:

And according to you, those people are the only smart people ever. And we don't only rely on Scripture, there are many modern day miracles.

I'd really love to hear about some of those 'miracles'.

Zoey2070 wrote:

so the idea of atheism has been around for a long time.

The none belief in a god or gods has been around since the very first human gained enough intelligence to ponder the world around them. No one is born religious, they're born Atheist and are converted.

Sanguine · Before February 2015

I don't regard religious people as stupid, but it's pretty hard to live in a world as modern as ours and without denial find a place for it, since science has been setting the standards which everything else has to measure up to. Scientific and religious thinking are highly incompatible, as you might imagine. Popular example: "The world is 6.000 years old." Disproven, yet often denied. Many still think that the bible is a reliable source of history, which could not be much further from the truth.

You respect my beliefs, which is nice, but you got that wrong: Atheism is not religion, it is the lack of religion. I don't have a belief. And I could not gather that from your posts.

Atheism was also hardly known because atheists are / have been scorned for being what they are for the longest of time. Most Islamic countries still have the death penalty for this, in America atheists encounter the hatred of Christians. It's quite sad. And that's one of the reasons why many of us don't feel that religion deserves any special treatment: If you can't provide facts / arguments you won't be given leverage.

Edit: Yay for typo-correction.

Last edited by Sanguine (Dec 28 2011 5:18:08 pm)

Shift · Before February 2015

Er, a religion is a set of beliefs and/or practices of a number of people. On Christmas day, many people give and receive gifts, as per their custom. Because a set of beliefs and/or practices is, in fact, a custom, you can use the transitive property to determine that Christmas has become a religion in and of itself, and, therefore, it's religious.

A bit reaching, I know, but I only pointed out a few definitions in order to find the correlation between Christmas and religion. Do I have to quote the definitions, or can we move on?

Twipply · Before February 2015

Shift wrote:

... Christmas has become a religion in and of itself ... Do I have to quote the definitions ...

Of course. Give us logical bullet points explaining each step you take to reach that conclusion.

Tako · Before February 2015

Christmas is a custom, yes, but custom != religion. No transitive property can be used here. Herp or derp, your choice.

What're you nubs talking about again? xputnameherex's points?

Well I think something similar came up on FruitMonster's thread about using the word "gay". Using the word "gay" to mean "lame" or anything else negative has come from certain people's hatred toward gay people - duh. But it can be argued that using the word "gay" as a negative adjective has absolutely nothing to do with hatred toward homosexuals in its context today.

Apply this to Christmas - Three kings bring presents as offerings to the one they worship: Jesus. While some people still celebrate it as a remembrance of Jesus's birth, some celebrate it as a completely irreligious holiday that still revolves around the giving of gifts.

One could argue that saying "gay" as a generic negative adjective is improper use of the word, just like someone saying celebrating Christmas as an irreligious holiday about "the gift of giving" is an improper celebration of Christmas. What I think that is, is not waking up to reality. Ie, whoever says those things is stuck in 354 AD when the only celebration of Christmas was to worship Jesus.

Conclusion: Christmas has religious backgrounds, yes, but society has greatly manipulated it into an irreligious holiday. There is no "right" way to celebrate it, because backgrounds of an event/custom do not necessarily make it an important part of what it is today.

xputnameherex · Before February 2015

Zoey. I said it was virtually unheard of, not nonexistent. It was only widely accepted since the Enlightenment, which I consider recent considering how long humans have been around for. And 14.2 percent is small, that leaves 85.6 percent who do believe.

Twipply. I think you misinterpreted, I said that with the huge amounts of people that are religous, it is virtually impossible for them to all be stupid, not that their beliefs were correct. I could provide sources to miracles, but you would surely deny them, as that is what you believe, that they didn't happen, so I won't bother. I also wouldn't say that people are born Athiest, but rather non-religous. There is a difference.

Sanguine: Many, many people do not rely on the Bible as a historical source, I respect that, that is why no one ever says that it is, so I don't know who did say that. I never said Athiesm is a religion, I said it was a belief, which it is. You believe there is no god. Belief. Also, Jews are easily the most hated people, by far, not Athiests. From the enslavement in Egypt to the more modern day Holocaust, the holocaust I repeat, to the great amount of jokes I hear about them, they are terribly hated.

Takoman. I said I know Christmas is largely commercialized, that is why I made this topic, to discuss the inner meaning that is less thought of.

Sanguine · Before February 2015

Wrong: Atheists do not "believe that there is no god" but rather "lack belief in gods". There is a difference. We are not to be thrown in the same pot as religious people, because we are not. Hence the term Atheist.

I fail to see the difference between a newborn child which is oblivious of any higher power until "properly" indoctrinated by whatever religious group gets its hands on it first, and an atheist. If the child never gets indoctrinated, it will probably not develop a religious belief, making it the natural state of being.

And about you saying Jews were more hated than Atheists, here you go:

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistbigo … sHated.htm

Though you will probably not trust my sources anyways, yet, if you want to be taken seriously, you will have to provide studies as well; at least more than mere claims.
Edit: Typo extermination.

Last edited by Sanguine (Dec 28 2011 9:17:19 pm)

Twipply · Before February 2015

xputnameherex wrote:

Twipply. I think you misinterpreted, I said that with the huge amounts of people that are religous, it is virtually impossible for them to all be stupid

I imagine any claims of stupidity are specifically directed towards a lack of some very important mental skills.

xputnameherex wrote:

not that their beliefs were correct. I could provide sources to miracles, but you would surely deny them, as that is what you believe, that they didn't happen

I would not deny anything that had evidence for its existence. What I would do, however, is apply logic, science, and reason to it in the aim of understanding. I would not turn to the lord of ignorance and thank him for his blessings. I suspect the 'true' reason you won't link to anything because you'd get laughed at.

xputnameherex wrote:

I also wouldn't say that people are born Athiest, but rather non-religous. There is a difference.

Seems to me that we're all born atheist. If you look up irreligion then you find you're either likely an atheist through rejection, or an agnostic through absence of belief. Considering that I think most who identify with atheism are actually agnostic atheists, I do think I'm correct. We are born atheists and converted.

xputnameherex · Before February 2015

Sanguine. No, you believe there is no god, otherwise you have been contradicting yourself this entire time. As Twipply points out, a lack of religion is being agnostic, not necessarily Athiest.

Again, a child without a faith would be agnostic. You also say "whatever religous grounesp gets its hands on it first." I would be greatly surprised if your parents were not Athiest, so don't think that religous people are the only ones. Even still, I could be an Athiest right now, and you could believe in a god, but we both choose not to, not like we can't leave.

I accept your source, but a university in America does not have the final say in anything. Also, if you really want me to provide a source for the Holocaust, don't even say anything more.

Twipply: Again, I think you misintrepreted, I didn't call anyone stupid, but was responding to Sanguines claim of religous stupidity.

Yes, you would deny something that has evidence, because what I consider evidence, you consider lies, simple as that.

Very well, people are born Agnostic in that case. As Athiesm is rejection, babies cannot reject something that they do not know about.

Sanguine · Before February 2015

Believe it or not, the first time I heard about god was when I was in primary school, and I liked it initially, because I thought it provided entertaining stories; I treated them the same way I treated fairy tales.

It was later in third grade (two years after I got exposed to the fairy tales / gospels) that I actually became aware that people seriously believed in all that, and I was kind of baffled.

I had a non-religious upbringing. I was never told that religion was bad or whatever, I just never got confronted with it until to my later primary school years. I doubt I would ever have given it any more thought had this not happened.

I live in Germany by the way, not in America, and there are usually no crosses in our classrooms and we do not have to say a pledge or something like that, so it was easy to be oblivious of it.

I feel tempted to close this case for myself, because I believe to have said what I wanted to say.

The Holocaust is the result of one complete maniac and a people being ignorant and dumb (actually more than just "a" people; it was a lot more than that, including a church led by Pope PiusXII at that time, which didn't care to even condemn the act at all.), not a general hatred of Jews.

What followed between Israel and Palestine can be contributed to both countries' political leaders spreading hateful propaganda and fighting a religiously motivated war against each other, if, most of the time, rather subtle through assassinations and acts of terrorism. I wonder: would this still have happened had they not had their individual scriptures? The Torah to tell them the land of Palestine was rightfully theirs and the Koran with it's readily presented justifications for violence and hatred?

Last edited by Sanguine (Dec 28 2011 10:30:34 pm)

BEE · Before February 2015

We are born atheists and converted.

I think my favorite quote about religion is as such:
"If all knowledge of science was lost today, somebody would figure it out again. What's true is true and someone would find that truth again through the same processes that discovered it in the first place. People will always come to the conclusion that the earth is round and goes around the sun because that is the only conclusion the scientific method can reach.

If all knowledge of religion was lost, it would be gone forever. Sure, people might form new beliefs, but the religions that exist now would never be recreated."

a lack of religion is being agnostic, not necessarily Athiest.

Uh, no sorry. Below is the best simplified chart I have found on this topic:

Edit: The picture is much larger than I expected so I won't link it here as a picture but rather as a link. Please click the following to see the chart:

http://i.imgur.com/WITlo.jpg

Last edited by BEE (Dec 28 2011 10:41:16 pm)

Shift · Before February 2015

Twipply wrote:

Shift wrote:
... Christmas has become a religion in and of itself ... Do I have to quote the definitions ...
Of course. Give us logical bullet points explaining each step you take to reach that conclusion.

Religion: a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects
Custom: a habitual practice; the usual way of acting in given circumstances.
Christmas: the annual festival of the Christian church commemorating the birth of Jesus: celebrated on December 25 and now generally observed as a legal holiday and an occasion for exchanging gifts.

Religion ~ Practices and Beliefs          definition of a religion
Practices and Beliefs ~ Custom          definition of custom
Religion ~ Custom                                     transitive property of congruence
Custom ~ Christmas                               definition of Christmas
Religion ~ Christmas                               transitive property of congruence
Religion ~ Religious                                  given (I would hope)
Religious ~ Christmas                               substitution property of congruence

That's the very basic logic that you're taught in Geometry. I even put it in a T-chart.

Now can we please move on? It's a moot point, and the number of argumentative forum members won't help.

Those of you who are arguing about atheism are getting off topic; wasn't this topic first created to determine whether or not Christmas is religious? (RHETORICAL)

EDIT: Don't argue about this, but... really, Bee? You have a "favorite quote about religion"? How can you choose, having so many options? Lol.

Last edited by Shift (Dec 28 2011 10:44:12 pm)

Tako · Before February 2015

That's sexy, BEE.

@xputnameherex: I wasn't referring to its commercialism, more like your statement "you can discuss the real meaning the real meaning of Christmas here." which I pointed out to be false - there is no real meaning to Christmas. I don't care if it's been molded into a polka-dancing, polka-dot wrapped-present-giving holiday, it's still Christmas and nothing more or less.

@shift:

Shift wrote:

Practices and Beliefs ~ Custom definition of custom

Where did you see beliefs in the definition of custom?

Custom: a habitual practice; the usual way of acting in given circumstances.

It's a custom to celebrate Christmas. When you celebrate Christmas, you are not believing in anything.

Religion: a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects

Christmas != religion or a religious holiday, as explained in my previous post. Why do you go out of your way to define such an illogical point (and I'm pretty sure you know it, given you have a few pennies worth of common sense).

Last edited by Tako (Dec 28 2011 11:08:11 pm)

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#26 Before February 2015, last edited by Zoey2070 (2016-11-27 01:09:34)

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