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treejoe4

Guest

Re: Sexism in Comics

Of course she can say what she wants, but I have no reason to take her argument seriously as she does not care for many other aspects of society. Additionally her entire argument is based on we should make fatties hot, just because she doesn't agree with what guys like to draw for their own enjoyment. Most guys are attracted to a general area of female figure, and that is thin, get over it.

Either everything is okay to express, or nothing is. You can't pick choose based on something that just offends you, maybe you need to learn to RESPECT the opinions of artists with an alternate view than you.

Teenage girls today are not getting anorexic because of Spiderman anyway. They are getting eating disorders because of mainstream celebrity culture, people need to feel rich, people need to feel beautiful, so they look up to them and copy them, creating a snowball effect of female clones.

There is NO inequality in this area, because women are free do it with men. Nobody is enforcing these views, nobody is saying they are right or wrong when they published.

Look at you Failgirl, getting all **** because I made an opinion that goes against yours. Boo hoo

Last edited by treejoe4 (May 5 2014 8:29:13 pm)

Calicara

Guest

Re: Sexism in Comics

Of course she can say what she wants, but I have no reason to take her argument seriously as she does not care for many other aspects of society. Additionally her entire argument is based on we should make fatties hot, just because she doesn't agree with what guys like to draw for their own enjoyment. Most guys are attracted to a general area of female figure, and that is thin, get over it.

There is NO inequality in this area, because women are free do it with men.

Look at you Failgirl, getting all **** because I made an opinion that goes against yours. Boo hoo

I don't get mad because you like to argue, I get mad because you are always putting words in my mouth. I never said "we should make fatties hot". My argument is not saying people should change. I am not biased against skinny people. All I'm saying is society should be more accepting of people of all body types. Not just for reasons of se xual appeal. Many people are biased against girls who don't fit into the societies norm. Even if men don't want them as partners doesn't mean we shouldn't treat them any lesser. The argument is nobody is ugly. Beautiful and ugly are only social constructions.
However, that doesn't mean defining beautiful or ugly makes any less of an impact on a person. If comics, and video games, and anime, all support sexist patriarchal views of woman, than woman who don't fit into those norms are going to feel like outcasts. Some will force themselves to change for society, others will embrace it, others will commit suicide. Feminism to me isn't about glorifying one type of woman over others, but accepting all woman regardless of looks. That being said, it's still wrong to make unrealistic images of woman, especially to those who are ignorant of the fact that most woman 'models' are inaccurate representations of what a real woman really looks like. I'm sure if you felt like taking the time you could search the internet for why having unrealistic representations of a woman is a problem (Like girls, metaphorically, 'killing' themselves to fit in, girls who are anorexic, or girls who want to die because they have been defined as ugly and therefore no one feels like they should exist.)

Your non-empathetic view toward woman I find rather disturbing. Perhaps you are not as a good as a person as you claim to be. Plus, you must care to some extent what I say if you keep responding. I'll play this game if you want. Checkmate Treegoist4.

Last edited by Calicara (May 5 2014 8:58:01 pm)

treejoe4

Guest

Re: Sexism in Comics

I lack empathy for women? I have more than enough reasons to argue against that, so I am just going to ignore that opinion like I do with many of yours.

There are 3 fundamental issues I have with your argument Failgirl, they are:

1. You want censorship. This is the 21st Century, this is western democracy and laws, millions of brave men and women have died fighting for ability to be able to read a book or to burn a flag. There should be no laws against art or freedom of speech, as long as it not something incredibly obscene. If people want to draw a good looking cartoon woman, then they shall. Either everything is okay, or nothing is, because then you are no better than some Muslim who gets over South Park.

2. Double Standards. Same argument goes with men, same reason there is no cartoon adventures of some skinny ugly geek, or a fat man. I have more than enough reasons to argue why there are no weak and skinny heroes comparable to me, but you don't, because you are a female. Feminism today ignores male issues, and focuses on petty arguments such as this.

3. Nobody wants it. Last time I checked comics are fiction, fantasy, adventure. Nobody reads them for realism, no normal person reading them would translate them into real world values. People draw and create them to make these fantasy worlds where every character is interesting and has a surreal level of   good looks. I don't read comics, but like many forms of art I expect a large focus should be on how good it looks to the reader, not on how it should look according to the ultimate and ultra-amazing views created by feminism.

Calicara

Guest

Re: Sexism in Comics

I lack empathy for women? I have more than enough reasons to argue against that, so I am just going to ignore that opinion like I do with many of yours.

There are 3 fundamental issues I have with your argument Failgirl, they are:

1. You want censorship. This is the 21st Century, this is western democracy and laws, millions of brave men and women have died fighting for ability to be able to read a book or to burn a flag. There should be no laws against art or freedom of speech, as long as it not something incredibly obscene. If people want to draw a good looking cartoon woman, then they shall. Either everything is okay, or nothing is, because then you are no better than some Muslim who gets over South Park.

2. Double Standards. Same argument goes with men, same reason there is no cartoon adventures of some skinny ugly geek, or a fat man. I have more than enough reasons to argue why there are no weak and skinny heroes comparable to me, but you don't, because you are a female. Feminism today ignores male issues, and focuses on petty arguments such as this.

3. Nobody wants it. Last time I checked comics are fiction, fantasy, adventure. Nobody reads them for realism, no normal person reading them would translate them into real world values. People draw and create them to make these fantasy worlds where every character is interesting and has a surreal level of   good looks. I don't read comics, but like many forms of art I expect a large focus should be on how good it looks to the reader, not on how it should look according to the ultimate and ultra-amazing views created by feminism.

Your posts are boring. Goodnight.

mrjawapa

Corn Man 🌽

From: Ohio, USA

Joined: 2015-02-15

Posts: 5,840

Website

Re: Sexism in Comics

@treejoe4 Just because someone fought so you have the right to burn a flag, does that mean that you should? The United States has been to hell and back so its citizens can "burn a flag". Doesn't mean that we should call up our buddies every Friday and burn another countries flag, or even our own for that matter...

---

Discord: jawp#5123

Calicara

Guest

Re: Sexism in Comics

P.S., In reagards to your 3rd argument Treejoe4, you would be surprise how much fan culture is pervasive in the real world. Research comic-cons, cosplay, canon, fanon, OTP, Otaku, Waifu, etc... Comics, cartoons, and animes are a whole culture on their own. I've actually been interested in the study of fan culture, but I wouldn't even know where to begin. Some people take stories lightly, others very seriously like the guy who tried to marry Twilight Sparkle. I feel it's my duty as an artist to be as culturally aware as possible to avoid being offensive and to avoid overused plot tropes. Therefore whether the basis of stories are 'fictitious' or not, they are real in the sense in that the ideas influence people outside of the book. I've read many books which have made me think and apply new ideas to my perspective on life, mostly historical graphic novels

Last edited by Calicara (May 5 2014 9:36:05 pm)

treejoe4

Guest

Re: Sexism in Comics

P.S., In reagards to your 3rd argument Treejoe4, you would be surprise how much fan culture is pervasive in the real world. Research comic-cons, cosplay, canon, fanon, OTP, Otaku, Waifu, etc... Comics, cartoons, and animes are a whole culture on their own. I've actually been interested in the study of fan culture, but I wouldn't even know where to begin. Some people take stories lightly, others very seriously like the guy who tried to marry Twilight Sparkle. I feel it's my duty as an artist to be as culturally aware as possible to avoid being offensive and to avoid overused plot tropes. Therefore whether the basis of stories are 'fictitious' or not, they are real in the sense in that the ideas influence people outside of the book. I've read many books which have made me think and apply new ideas to my perspective on life, mostly historical graphic novels

That area of society is undignified and unworthy of representing the average person, the average person does not obsess over internet fiction and the average person is not autistic, invalid argument. Your way of thinking does not create ideas, it restricts them.

And JaWapa I have no idea why you got that argument from my post, but I am sure you mean artists should not necessarily draw women that way because they can. Again an invalid argument, because you cannot tell them not to, and they do not draw women like that because they can.

Failgirl your arguments have been surely slain by my sword of logic and reason.

Last edited by treejoe4 (May 5 2014 9:49:00 pm)

Calicara

Guest

Re: Sexism in Comics

That area of society is undignified and unworthy of representing the average person, the average person does not obsess over internet fiction and the average person is not autistic, invalid argument. Your way of thinking does not create ideas, it restricts them.

Failgirl your arguments have been surely slain by my sword of logic and reason.

Ok now you are just being dumb. Fiction and TV Shows have inspired people to build and create new things for generations. Furthermore that 'area of society' is more often than not made up of educated people. I have an uncle who is a state trooper, who also likes the Powerpuff Girls. Is he undignified and unworthy of representing the average person? And I never said anything about autistic people, so what are you trying to say about autistic people? That they are dumb? I know lots of people with autism who live perfectly normal lives, and they are most certainly not dumb. The world of fiction does not restrict ideas it creates them. Almost every 'good' piece of art, movie, or comic is based off something else whether it be real or fictitious. Lighten up.

Last edited by Calicara (May 6 2014 6:36:33 am)

mrjawapa

Corn Man 🌽

From: Ohio, USA

Joined: 2015-02-15

Posts: 5,840

Website

Re: Sexism in Comics

What does being autistic have to do with anything? There's a kid in my school who is autistic and he is smarter than hell. He may not be able to ramble math facts off the top of his head or tell you the date when something happened but he can go on for hours about how cancer could be cured. Further more he's a damn good artist... he helps make the props and record for the plays the school puts on. Hell sit and make the 3D fictional animals out of paper and they look fking   amazing.

---

Discord: jawp#5123

iPwner

Member

From: CaliforNYAN Land.

Joined: 2015-02-15

Posts: 1,514

Website

Re: Sexism in Comics

Is this real? If so, let me to lol my heart out. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL, *lololololol*, LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO, LO-LO! ;D  
on topic: who cares? it's fake! not real!

---

ssAARASAAAAAAAAA  iAAAAAAAAAAAAA OU yaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAA YAAAaa YAAaah; yaayaayaa, yayayaya-ya-ya YAAA YAAAYA; YAYAYA YAAHAYAhAAAAAAAAAA 

EPIOOOOOUUUUUUuuuuuu   IUO0O0oooooooooooppi

;3 0>o ~X_x~ <~(^V^)~> (); ;B ;~; *~<:',',',',',{ Q=(*@`)Q

Im A ®a®ity ®

Calicara

Guest

Re: Sexism in Comics

Is this real? If so, let me to lol my heart out. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL, *lololololol*, LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO, LO-LO! ;D  
on topic: who cares? it's fake! not real!

I don't care much about feminism TBH, my real issue with cheap art po rn. Like I said in an earlier post, making cheap pulpy art just to stimulate mens sexual desires is no better than being a mercenary at war. IMO if your going to spend time making a comic, make a quality comic, not a po rno in disguise. I realize this view is bias, and I'm totally ok with that. Everyone has their own opinions. Why Treegoist4 mentioned autism I am unsure, but from the context he seems to be implying that they aren't 'regular people', whatever that means. Autism and autistic people have nothing to do with this topic, and technically they are regular people, so I don't see what he is getting at.

treejoe4

Guest

Re: Sexism in Comics

I don't know how things are in the states, but over here your weird interests are relatively uncommon among teenage girls, and those who are interested in it are seen as 'sados' or just plain weird, probably because they act like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85y-N5GJa9g

Claiming girls are under pressure from comics drawings is absurd outside of the small and weird cultures you know, I already said before, it's due to the celebrity culture society has.

And Failgirl, listen to your own advice, 'Almost every 'good' piece of art, movie, or comic is based off something else whether it be real or fictitious. Lighten up.'. Just like drawings of men and women, lighten up.

Calicara

Guest

Re: Sexism in Comics

@Treejoe4: You are basing an entire group, an entire culture, off of one very small portion of people. You can't assume that just because some people are obsessive fans means all people are obsessive fans, it's like saying all Americans are dumb just because some Americans are dumb. It simply isn't true.

The real problem is your apathetic attitude vs my empathetic attitude. You seem to think anything which is counter productive to the preservation of the human race is disgusting and stupid, but in doing so not only are you being discriminatory but offensive as well. The smartest man on earth can only smart so much as there are others who are less smarter than him. Intellectuals and politicians only have power insofar as there are common people who need guidance. You can't expect every common person to have a fulfilling, meaningful, and self sacrificial life. That is where people like me come in to remind people like you to be a little more empathetic. Your doctrine of life only works insofar as everyone agrees with your ethical values, but in doing so you ignore the ethics of others. People should try their best to be accepting of other ideas, insofar as those ideas are not a threat to others. My argument about comics is valid in that sense then, because as stated many time before unrealistic portrayals of woman can be harmful in shaping the ideology of what should be considered beautiful, so I will not lighten up.

Lastly, just because you don't understand or appreciate something, doesn't make it any less valuable. I don't care for the annoying fan types, but they don't hurt or harm me so I don't care. I don't understand it, so I leave it alone. BTW I see you sidestepped your snarky comment about autism. I hate it when people equate autism with stupidity, because that is such a shallow view of a disorder which people cannot choose to have. Autism isn't contagious, it is something you are born with. Being autistic doesn't make you dumb either. Those are ludicrous misconceptions made out of fear by people who do not understand what autism is.

Last edited by Calicara (May 6 2014 12:30:10 pm)

treejoe4

Guest

Re: Sexism in Comics

I ignore the ethics of others? Okay I will give up on my career goal to be involved with environmental conservation for future generations to live happily. Guess I was living a lie.

'...everyone agrees with your ethical values, but in doing so you ignore the ethics of others'

This doesn't make sense to me, my values have a higher ethical value than yours. You assume just because I do not want to censor artists then I must agree with them entirely, I don't. I personally find the way women are created in fiction to be often gross and undignified, but I do not want to stop people drawing them because I think everyone has the right to say and create whatever they want, as long as it doesn't invade another person's life.

You cannot enforce your own rules on these freedoms just because you have   a problem with it. Especially when the things you want to censor is not and never will be the root of the problem. Man you ego must be astronomical to think your own values can be placed over creative freedoms.

And where do you even think your own rules can be applied, it's not even practical. This just reminds of the Nazis rules on artwork, where anything abstract was banned, as it was seen as having no positive value for Germany.

My views on autism does not include stupidity, I do not have a lower opinion of people born with autism, I even got in my first and only fight when I was 12 defending my autistic friend. What I was trying to say is that the people who often obsess and follow these weird cultures may often have something slightly off with them, maybe comparable to autism. You cannot compare these kinds of people with the average teenage girl who reads celebrity websites.

Failgirl you need to accept that you are a hypocrite

Calicara

Guest

Re: Sexism in Comics

@Treejoe4: If I don't like the way things are I'm going to try to change them. I am for equality and the preservation of the human race, but that doesn't exempt me from having an opinion. I'm sure you'll be glad to know I don't ever plan on going into politics. I aware of my bias nature, and I know I couldn't handle the constant battle between personal and public ideologies. However this does not make me a hypocrite. I like to categorize and name things, and give into stereotypes I can't help it. I am only like this in my thinking though. I do not ever tell people what I think, because I know sometimes what I think is wrong. I'm still going to think wrong things, but people shouldn't be defined by the way they think.
Actions speak louder than words. I can think murder is ok, but I will never kill anyone. I can think stealing is ok, but I will never steal. I think men drawing half naked toothpick girls is demeaning and harmful, but I know that I can't control what is and is not published in the comic book industry.
You take things out of control and put words in my mouth that were never there to begin with. It's not possible to both support equality and not have an opinion on something. Just by being you are judging. I am just more open about my judgements than others, at least when it comes to an obscure online forum like so. None of this makes me a hypocrite. So you can either let it go, because I was under the impression you didn't care what I think, or you can keep wasting your time, because I still stand by my original judgement about how pictures in comics can be harmful to others.

Last edited by Calicara (May 6 2014 1:19:33 pm)

Cyclone or Meredith

Guest

Re: Sexism in Comics

making cheap pulpy art just to stimulate mens sexual desires is no better than being a mercenary at war.

1. How do you not know lesbian women are not interested in it

2. This is an absurd statement, the difference between an artist and a mercenary is drastic on a literal level never mind a moral one.

I didn't read most of your walls of text and I don't particularly want to get involved but I thought I'd give my two cents on that comment.

Calicara

Guest

Re: Sexism in Comics

1. How do you not know lesbian women are not interested in it

2. This is an absurd statement, the difference between an artist and a mercenary is drastic on a literal level never mind a moral one.

I didn't read most of your walls of text and I don't particularly want to get involved but I thought I'd give my two cents on that comment.

Your first statement I cannot answer. As for your second, the comparison was that both actions are generally done with the expectation of a monetary gain regardless of your beliefs. I don't support war, but if I had to put my life on the line there better be a good reason. Money means nothing if I'm dead. Furthermore I think it's important to understand why you are doing what you are doing and how it effects others. If you fight and kill for the sake of fighting and killing you are surely evil and need to be stopped. If you fight in the name of self defense or in defense of the weak, then I might be more willing to justify the fight. It really depends on the context. Likewise with art, I view those who draw art po rn for money shameful, because if you draw without considering the effects of your work than you might end up saying or drawing something that is harmful and offensive to others.

Last edited by Calicara (May 6 2014 2:01:09 pm)

Fdoou

Banned

Re: Sexism in Comics

it's not a mercenary for war, what if the artist actually enjoys what they're making?

Calicara

Guest

Re: Sexism in Comics

it's not a mercenary for war, what if the artist actually enjoys what they're making?

Well I suppose then they are not a mercenary, though I still think their actions can have negative effects regardless of whether they like it or not. I could like to call people names but that doesn't make it ok. Those names can hurt others just as much as setting up unrealistic expectations for a way of life. Doing something even though you know it is hurting others just makes you evil.

Fdoou

Banned

Re: Sexism in Comics

in that sense everything is evil

Calicara

Guest

Re: Sexism in Comics

in that sense everything is evil

Well, from a Camus perspective, one could say everyday while some countries thriving others are dying, yet most make people no effort to improve the human condition of the countries that are dying. Ie: While America has problems with obesity, people are starving in Africa. From Camus perspective the best way to live ones life is fight to improve the human condition for all peoples. One could say by knowing that there is injustice and ignoring it, it makes you just as evil as those who commit the injustice. My personal philosophy is sort of like Camus, but a bit different. I have no wish to discuss this further, because I've had enough argument for one day.

Last edited by Calicara (May 6 2014 4:19:39 pm)

Fdoou

Banned

Re: Sexism in Comics

you are vain

Calicara

Guest

Re: Sexism in Comics

you are vain

No. Don't think so.

Fdoou

Banned

Re: Sexism in Comics

i don't know what that word means

Pyromaniac

Official Caroler

Joined: 2015-02-15

Posts: 4,868

Re: Sexism in Comics

Oh boy looks like a checked in at just the right time!!!!
I read most of the above but i skipped most of failgirls posts tbh (sorry) and only read the last lines of treejoes because thats where the funny parts are.
Anyway. Im about as anti sexism as they come. But I find this whole "fat is beauty" movement that has been growing on facebook and other places kinda strange. Fat is not beauty, fat is unhealthy. Personally I would not want to date someone who doesn't take care of themseleves. Excersize and healthy eating is important for your body, and your mental state of mind. I understand that there is a difference between fat and obese, but the line is blurring everyday. Im sure there are some obese people that say "im just overweight," and people still use the "big boned" line . THis is the same for men and women. Im not saying that men should all have 6 packs and killer muscles, or that women should be super skinny. But you should not be unhealthily overweight either.

As for the comics, I think portraying women like that isn't fair. But it is a marketing tool, even though that doesn't make it right. I dont think making them fat or overweight would be a good idea, because it, as was stated above, not make for a very good story. Theres a happy medium between making them unhealthily skinny, and overweight. Making them average weight would be fine, wouldn't it?