Dear Staff, get a lawyer

Minimania · 2020-12-04 03:53:24

Minisaurus wrote:

Plainly false, the only drastic action was to shake the staff, not to hinder him, I wasn´t even aware that Minimania was doing a replacement pack until recently.

I've had the idea for Project M and replacement packs all the way back since at least February 28, when I first made the 'Grass' pack which used my 'Ground' pack as its base.

EDIT: I didn't set out to work on it until a little more recently, however

Minisaurus · 2020-12-04 04:00:48

Yeah, I didn´t noticed your work until you repeatedly told me so, and I am very happy to see that someone from the staff is doing such wonderful gift for the game.
I will never cease to be impressed by your work, thanks for the example of ethic work you are providing to the staff.

N1KF

N1KF · 2020-12-04 04:07:00

Different55 wrote:

You don't think Minimania's motivation is being sapped every time you accuse him of doing literally nothing and every time you take some ridiculous drastic action in the radically misguided attempt to scare him into moving faster when he's already doing everything he can? Believe me when I say: you are not helping him.

Removing those illegal graphics from the game doesn't mean instantly replacing them all with perfect, polished graphics. Nobody's expecting perfect graphics to be instantly made. As I've mentioned once or twice before, it should be fairly easy to whip up some decent placeholder graphics. If that's too hard just make 16x16 colored squares with the text "gib cod" on them; that's good enough and it means the problem is solved.

Minimania · 2020-12-04 04:11:23

N1KF I really hope you saw Project M

N1KF

Different55 · 2020-12-04 04:38:31

N1KF wrote:

Different55 wrote:
You don't think Minimania's motivation is being sapped every time you accuse him of doing literally nothing and every time you take some ridiculous drastic action in the radically misguided attempt to scare him into moving faster when he's already doing everything he can? Believe me when I say: you are not helping him.
Removing those illegal graphics from the game doesn't mean instantly replacing them all with perfect, polished graphics. Nobody's expecting perfect graphics to be instantly made. As I've mentioned once or twice before, it should be fairly easy to whip up some decent placeholder graphics. If that's too hard just make 16x16 colored squares with the text "gib cod" on them; that's good enough and it means the problem is solved.

But there is no need to make awful trash-tier placeholder graphics, this isn't something that needs to happen overnight. This problem is one that has existed for 10 years, there is no need for a quick fix that would harm the game in its final days more than being patient and waiting.

N1KF · 2020-12-04 04:39:33

but it's illegal

Minisaurus · 2020-12-04 04:42:52

N1KF wrote:

but it's illegal

Unless you prove otherwise in court.

N1KF

mrjawapa · 2020-12-04 04:58:55

Different55 wrote:

This problem is one that has existed for 10 years, there is no need for a quick fix that would harm the game in its final days

bUt NIntEnDo!

Raphe9000 · 2020-12-04 05:31:54

Minisaurus wrote:

N1KF wrote:
but it's illegal
Unless you prove otherwise in court.

So guilty until proven innocent?

Minisaurus · 2020-12-04 06:01:10

Raphe9000 wrote:

So guilty until proven innocent?

No, like this:

Different55 · 2020-12-04 06:02:17

N1KF wrote:

but it's illegal

Illegality doesn't instantly override everything else. Mini's still got limited time. We're still living in a non ideal world with 3 dimensional people just slightly more complex than Lemmings and with multiple priorities to juggle. N1KF you are a good kid but your fatal flaw is and always has been understanding the real world motivations of real world people. Things do not easily boil down to "X, therefore Y." In this case, yes there is something illegal in the game. However there is limited time and motivation to devote to the issue. It is not a pressing issue. Nothing will happen if it is not speedily fixed. As long as it *is* fixed, there's no difference between 10 years and 6 months vs and 10 years and 7 months. There is nothing to be gained by forcing the issue. It cannot be artificially sped up. Attempts to do so will *drain* motivation, not boost it.

There is nothing to do here but cheer on the ongoing efforts and provide helpful feedback. Nothing that has happened here has benefited the cause. It stirred things up. But the efforts were already underway and again, they haven't and can't be accelerated, and there is no reason for them to be. Its legal status, whatever it is, does not bring Mini more time or motivation than he already had. If you want to help, stop pretending that any of this was good *for this topic* (yes, it has gotten people more engaged. But not in a good way. And not in a way that solves the issue at hand. Or even helps it.) And limit yourselves to actions that actually, *practically* do help.

32OrtonEdge32dh, N1KF, KyYay, Joeyjoey65, Snowester, John, mutantdevle

Minisaurus · 2020-12-04 06:14:58

Don´t act like if the staff was going to do something about the stolen graphics.
The staff don´t wanted the graphics to be replaced, they was going to wait until Nintendo started moving.
I personally spoken to staff members here and privately to figure that out.

Minimania´s work was going to be just a community project, and a "just in case EE is sued" graphic replacement for EEO/EE.
This topic clearly provoked the staff enough to start considering to replace the graphics Minimania did to the actual EEO project officially.

Different55 · 2020-12-04 06:22:24

Minisaurus wrote:

Don´t act like if the staff was going to do something about the stolen graphics.
The staff don´t wanted the graphics to be replaced, they was going to wait until Nintendo started moving.

Minisaurus wrote:

I am going to ask Nintendo and Facebook and see what they think, maybe they can provide a wiser and more efficient solution to this crossroad.
Go on and continue having the fear in your heart, but I am quite sure EE is free of all guilt and Facebook and Nintendo will confirm it probably this week.

Do not lie and try to pretend you asked Nintendo to light a fire under the staff's butts. You did it out of a misguided attempt to try and convince the staff they were allowed to use the graphics. That was a *horrible* idea, but at least there was some good intentions behind it. Intentions that are unfortunately spoiled when you try to lie and change the past.

I would prefer to continue talking just to N1KF. She can be misguided but she doesn't misrepresent herself the way you have throughout this topic.

32OrtonEdge32dh, Joeyjoey65, mutantdevle, John, Slabdrill

Minisaurus · 2020-12-04 06:25:19

I don´t expect from you anything, but you clearly dislike what I did, and I can´t blame that.

I have my intentions, and I evolve my thoughts.

But even so, my intention was always to figure out a solution to the stolen graphics, and here we are, this ended up positively.
I finally shaked the staff enough (along with other community members) to force them to fix the problem that haunted EE for years, and just in time so they don´t mess up with EEO first release.

Congratulations for the staff.

N1KF · 2020-12-04 07:35:20

(as a sidenote, I prefer to go by she/her pronouns nowadays. Thank you for understanding.)

Different, I agree that this doesn't need to be an urgent matter. I don't necessarily agree with Minisaurus's approach, but I can respect it. If Minisaurus's topic really is demotivating to the community, that what does that say about our reactions to questioning something as simple as the legality of Everybody Edits? It's only demotivating if you choose to view it that way. You can also see it as another reason to help Everybody Edits in its pitiful state.

I suppose the reason I've been a bit pushy isn't because I feel that strongly about the graphics, but because it's a good central point for addressing this and two deeper problems. The fact that users such as Minisaurus aren't more understood and appreciated for their work, and that EE franchise is moving so slowly.

I feel as if Minisaurus is an underdog like I am, and I respect his stubborn commitment to getting a single goal done. Although working for 24 hours straight doesn't sound like a healthy work-to-life balance, I also respect his commitment to Everybody Edits as a staff member. What I don't respect is people not giving him a chance, and dismissing somebody who casually revealed himself to be one of the most devoted fans of Everybody Edits. This may sound arrogant but I don't think many people have spent as much time and mental energy brainstorming Everybody Edits as Minisaurus or I have. If I can recognize that in an EE comrade then I will support said comrade when talking about EE.
.
The Everybody Edits franchise moving slowly is a pretty well established problem by now. The approach I think should be taken is to future-proof Everybody Edits. One thing that can be done is to improve and polish the game, which—as Minisaurus brought to my attention—can include replacing copyrighted graphics. This is yet another part of my vision for Everybody Edits. Again, this is a bit cryptic, and I hope to eventually explain my whole perspective on EE I've been building up for years.

I think that sometimes the simplest logic is the best logic, and I'll believe that until I'm proven wrong.

Different55 · 2020-12-04 16:48:32

N1KF wrote:

If Minisaurus's topic really is demotivating to the community, that what does that say about our reactions to questioning something as simple as the legality of Everybody Edits? It's only demotivating if you choose to view it that way. You can also see it as another reason to help Everybody Edits in its pitiful state.

That's not why it's demotivating. Minisaurus made this topic as a well-meaning but misguided individual. He had the right intentions but the wrong idea, and it was impossible to explain that to him. That is the problem, it's impossible to talk to him and have him understand. I can talk to you, you reply, and I can see where we're misunderstanding each other and can point it out. Minisaurus is impossible to pin down in that way because he doesn't read what people write, doesn't respond to it, and doesn't agree with it just if he doesn't feel like it, regardless of how much sense it makes or how true it is. All the sane people have stopped talking now because this discussion with Minisaurus, throughout all his changes of view, does not progress. You only need to take a look at a few of the details Orton went over to understand that. That is deeply demotivating for the people he's trying to engage with. I completely understand that you're sticking yourself to the underdog, that's a very "you" action lol. But you're not helping him, either. I'm legit not sure he can be helped, but if he can, it'd be by helping him understand what's going on in this topic, not by encouraging the type of discussion he's pushing.

And throughout all of that, he first slams the staff for being lazy and not reusing the graphics, then being lazy and not recreating the graphics, when a member of staff is doing exactly that. No matter how often Minisaurus says he supports Minimania, it's not shown in action. And that's demotivating.

Minisaurus shouldn't be appreciated for his work here, there is no work. His passion? Maybe, but definitely not his work. This topic is a disaster in all respects. He has harmed much more than he has helped, and encouraging that is likely to cause additional harm.

Joeyjoey65, 32OrtonEdge32dh, N1KF, mutantdevle, John, Slabdrill

Minisaurus · 2020-12-04 17:09:22

Different55 wrote:

Minisaurus shouldn't be appreciated for his work

I created dozens of graphics for EE and literally THOUSANDS OF GRAPHICS FOR EEU that are being holded for now, I don´t see were you are going, perhaps nowhere.
I keep doing graphics in this very right moment for the game, and I continue secretly collaborating with the staff for doing graphics and being sure those are ready to be placed for EEU.

I worked for EE for around 2 years, and in that time I spent literally 5000+ hours. I even privilegied EE work over my real life and studies. (That is part of why I quitted the staff, I simply love this game, perhaps too much).
In part I quitted the staff too so I can publicly criticize what I saw wrong on it, as a community member I am more open and free to speak of those problems than as a staff member.

Different55, living in the past won´t give any benefit to anyone, including this game.
What matters is the actions we do today to develop the future we want for EE.
You are too attached living in the past that you want to retain others from developing a better future.

You must learn to deal with the fact that as a community we advance against adversity, and we develop and improve ways to keep the game we love, alive.
We, the community, prottect the game even from it´s own staff when we see they are doing wrong, as no every staff member do right for this game, sometimes they make mistakes, or simply damages the game with negligence.
Me and N1KF will perhaps be the ones who gives the hardest hits&critize to the staff when we see them failing the community on it´s only job while them being part of the staff team.
I won´t hesitate to protect this game from the staff when I see them doing wrong to it and I will continue publicly and privately do everything I can to support this game.

I will continue providing my help (Mostly private) to the staff, and I will support them whenever I see them doing right to the game.
Minimania has shown to be the best hope EE has to prevail and success with his admirable ethic work. I expect the rest of the staff team to follow him, as we the community do already, his illustrious example.

Raphe9000 · 2020-12-04 18:09:06

Different55 wrote:

Minisaurus shouldn't be appreciated for his work here, there is no work. His passion? Maybe, but definitely not his work. This topic is a disaster in all respects. He has harmed much more than he has helped, and encouraging that is likely to cause additional harm.

Minisaurus wrote:

Different55 wrote:
Minisaurus shouldn't be appreciated for his work

LMFAO this is some of the best trolling I've seen.

Minisaurus wrote:

I worked . . . to . . . make . . . the game . . . failing

Keep up the good work my friend, you will destroy this community soon enough

32OrtonEdge32dh

TaskManager · 2020-12-04 18:21:34

Minisaurus wrote:

I even privilegied EE work over my real life and studies.

too bad
you shouldnt

rat, Raphe9000, Joeyjoey65, 32OrtonEdge32dh, KyYay, mutantdevle, John, Snowester

Minisaurus · 2020-12-04 18:39:03

TaskManager wrote:

Minisaurus wrote:
I even privilegied EE work over my real life and studies.
too bad
you shouldnt

A thing of the past, I won´t join the staff again, but I will keep doing graphics whenever needed.
Also I will be active in the community as long as I feel like it.

Tomahawk · 2020-12-04 19:13:00

I guess I'll point out the misunderstanding:

Different55 wrote:

Minisaurus shouldn't be appreciated for his work here

Here. In this thread. The Nintendo email specifically. Not the stuff you've made for EE/EEU.

Different55, KyYay, N1KF, mutantdevle, 32OrtonEdge32dh, Joeyjoey65, John, Slabdrill, Snowester

mutantdevle · 2020-12-04 22:29:26

The thing that annoys me most about Minisaurus criticising the staff for not doing anything here is that he is assuming we automatically should be doing something just because he says so. Nobody should be making that decision on behalf of everybody else. If we had released EEO into the EEU discord with several of the graphics changed, I have no doubts that there would have been serious backlash to it. If changing the graphics for EEO is something that the community genuinely wants then there is literally no reason why we would not abide by that request. As I have said in this topic before, I think that could have been/would be a valuable and worthwhile discussion to have.

However,

Kentiya wrote:

I'm not sure what the problem is with using the "stolen" graphics in EEO, a game that isn't monetized. Isn't the point of EEO to preserve what EE was, including what it looked like? Using entirely new graphics seems to go against that point.

This is my personal view on the situation too. I think EEO should preserve what EE was - that includes all of its flaws too such as the fact it used stolen graphics. In terms of the argument that we shouldn't use stolen graphics for moral reasons, as I myself have argued for why we should never use stolen graphics for EEU even if we could get away with it, I'd counter that by saying it is nowhere near as bad for EEO since it is not monetized.

I personally think we are past the point of changing EE/EEO's graphics (unless Nintendo forced us to). This should have been a discussion that should have happened months if not years ago. And I think the fact that in all that time no one has raised it as a serious issue is evidence to me that it's not something the community actually wants. But I could be wrong on that and, again, if it is something the community genuinely wants then I see no reason why we wouldn't make the change.

KyYay, N1KF, Different55, icepegasus, Kentiya, Joeyjoey65, John, Gosha, Snowester

Minimania · 2020-12-04 23:10:42

mutantdevle wrote:

personally think we are past the point of changing EE/EEO's graphics (unless Nintendo forced us to). This should have been a discussion that should have happened months if not years ago. And I think the fact that in all that time no one has raised it as a serious issue is evidence to me that it's not something the community actually wants.

besides me of course

mutantdevle, icepegasus, Slabdrill

LukeM · 2020-12-04 23:15:34

Thought I'd hop in here to give my two cents. I don't intend to make this shouting match any worse so I probably won't reply to anything said in response to this, just popping in then immediately back out again lol.

So first I should say that I agree that going and contacting Nintendo was a bad idea at this point in time, since it puts the game in unnecessary risk a month before it would have pretty much been fine anyway.

There's no going back now though, what's done is done, so we need to think through the options and possible outcomes logically. These are:
- Nothing happens.
- Nintendo contacts EE asking for all offending graphics to be taken down.
- Nintendo asks for all graphics to be taken down, and for all profits made from those graphics to be paid to them.
(only including Nintendo as they are the most likely to respond)

The first is probably most likely, but given that Nintendo has been notified directly and generally responds harshly to these sorts of things, I don't think you should rule out the last two.

In the first case, everything goes on as normal.
In the second case, EEU goes ahead as usual, but the staff urgently needs to either redo graphics, site backgrounds, logos, EEO, etc, or just take EE and EEO down entirely.
In the third case, Xeno goes bankrupt and EE, EEO, and EEU are all shut down.

What needs to be decided right now is whether or not to proactively replace the offending graphics. If they are replaced then it is much less likely that Nintendo will feel the need to respond, if not then I guess we just have to cross our fingers and hope they don't react too harshly.

I guess this puts it down to a question of how much you value EEU vs how much you value the last couple weeks of EE and some things looking slightly different in EEO. Personally I don't believe that that is worth even a 1% chance of EEU being completely killed off. EE is only going to be around for a couple more weeks now, and tbh the set up required to get Flash running after the end of 2020 will probably mean that few people will even bother to use EEO, let alone actually care about some slightly tweaked graphics.

N1KF, Minimania, Kentiya, KyYay, Different55

N1KF · 2020-12-04 23:20:44

mutantdevle wrote:

The thing that annoys me most about Minisaurus criticising the staff for not doing anything here is that he is assuming we automatically should be doing something just because he says so. Nobody should be making that decision on behalf of everybody else.

In this case, copyright law is in agreement with Minisaurus. So it's not just because he says so, but also because there's the truth that Nintendo lawyers could zap us at any moment, even as unlikely as that is in EE's current state (and very slightly more likely because of Minisaurus's email).

mutantdevle, Minimania, Different55

Official Everybody Edits Forums

#226 2020-12-04 03:53:24, last edited by Minimania (2020-12-04 03:54:39)

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#227 2020-12-04 04:00:48, last edited by Minisaurus (2020-12-04 04:11:41)

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#228 2020-12-04 04:07:00

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#229 2020-12-04 04:11:23

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#230 2020-12-04 04:38:31

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#231 2020-12-04 04:39:33

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#232 2020-12-04 04:42:52

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#233 2020-12-04 04:58:55

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#234 2020-12-04 05:31:54

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#235 2020-12-04 06:01:10, last edited by Minisaurus (2020-12-04 06:10:56)

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#236 2020-12-04 06:02:17

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#237 2020-12-04 06:14:58, last edited by Minisaurus (2020-12-04 06:21:07)

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#238 2020-12-04 06:22:24, last edited by Different55 (2020-12-04 12:11:05)

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#239 2020-12-04 06:25:19, last edited by Minisaurus (2020-12-04 15:08:51)

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#240 2020-12-04 07:35:20, last edited by N1KF (2020-12-04 07:45:42)

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#241 2020-12-04 16:48:32, last edited by Different55 (2020-12-04 17:41:11)

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#242 2020-12-04 17:09:22, last edited by Minisaurus (2020-12-04 18:06:47)

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#243 2020-12-04 18:09:06

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#244 2020-12-04 18:21:34

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#245 2020-12-04 18:39:03

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#246 2020-12-04 19:13:00

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#247 2020-12-04 22:29:26

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#248 2020-12-04 23:10:42

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#249 2020-12-04 23:15:34, last edited by LukeM (2020-12-04 23:20:09)

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

#250 2020-12-04 23:20:44

Re: Dear Staff, get a lawyer

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