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#1 2016-08-27 20:16:23

den3107
Member
From: Netherlands
Joined: 2015-04-24
Posts: 1,024

About copyright...

So this post from Processor made it pretty obvious copyright is a thing. Even for something as small as bots on EE.

Now my question is...
There was this bot, made by DarkDragon4900 (from here on just Dark).
It was basically a "boss" bot where a boss-character (animated by bot) would place hazards systematically (eg: showing a scope-view (from a gun), and a second later the area of that scope becoming spikes to eliminate any slowpokes).

This bot hasn't been on for probably a year or something.

Now I messaged Dark 4 days ago, though Dark's last post was 2016-07-11, and I doubt he's been online much since then, since he was somewhat active on this part of the forums.


Now I think it's fairly obvious by now that I'm wanting to make a bot like he did (obviously not a literal copy). So my main question: how does copyright exactly work?

Digbot is used by everyone, shouldn't that be against copyright stuff? Or is it only against once the OP has put a claim on it? (meaning you can basically do whatever unless somebody stated to have copyright or sees your bot by accident).
Or would one (me in this case) be "forced" to wait out an answer to prevent wasting time in making the bot?


TL;DR;
Messaged OP of bot idea that hasn't been used for about a year.
OP didn't answer after 4 days, was last online probably a month ago.
Can I just make my own version of the bot (like digbot), or do I have to wait for a reply due to possible copyright claims?

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#2 2016-08-27 20:24:51

The Party Animal
Formerly TPA2
From: The Zoo
Joined: 2015-07-10
Posts: 483

Re: About copyright...

so its like if your using someones bot and then pass it down saying i made this bot its mine if they use something with copyright without permission from the owner they can get sued or something like that so like in a youtube video if you use someones own song and you dont give them credit youtube will take down that video or erase the music and all sounds from that video


" I don't want to be a product of my environment. I want my environment to be a product of me"
                                                                                                                                          - Frank Costello

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#3 2016-08-27 20:34:47, last edited by Hexagon (2016-08-27 20:39:46)

Hexagon
Member
Joined: 2015-04-22
Posts: 1,213

Re: About copyright...

The copyright law is very complicated and it's probably better to talk to a lawyer about it.

From what I recall (this may be absolutely incorrect; do not take my word for it) you can't just magically slap copyright on something and then if someone violates it sue for it. You can get mad at the other person but you actually have to register your copyright (and it costs money.)

Also: R42Bot++ is licensed under a Mozilla license. https://github.com/realmaster42/R42Bot/ … 2B/LICENSE and I can't find a copyright sticker on it (again, I'm not a lawyer. Do not trust what I'm saying, it's just an opinion.)

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#4 2016-08-27 20:47:00

Different55
Forum Admin
Joined: 2015-02-07
Posts: 16,420

Re: About copyright...

As long as you don't reuse his code it should be fine.


"Sometimes failing a leap of faith is better than inching forward"
- ShinsukeIto

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#5 2016-08-27 20:58:25

Swarth100
Member
Joined: 2015-07-18
Posts: 305

Re: About copyright...

Different55 wrote:

As long as you don't reuse his code it should be fine.

Or if the code is given under a license, just give him credit within your code

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#6 2016-08-27 21:00:20, last edited by Zumza (2016-08-27 22:27:25)

Zumza
Member
From: root
Joined: 2015-02-17
Posts: 4,559

Re: About copyright...

Hexagon wrote:

From what I recall (this may be absolutely incorrect; do not take my word for it) you can't just magically slap copyright on something and then if someone violates it sue for it. You can get mad at the other person but you actually have to register your copyright (and it costs money.))

Sorry but copyright does indeed work like magic. You don't have to pay for copyright. From the moment you create something you have the right to imply a copyright.
Its hard however to ever demonstrate that you are the actual creator as in a court tho.
On the other hand, there are patents. And patens do cost money. (you also should register it in more countries)
And most often suing for patents are successful. 

So bringing this simple:
The idea of the bot e.g. DigBot could be a patent. The code of RM42++(random example) is copyrighted. So you can do a DigBot(because nobody register a pattern for it) but you cant use RealMaster's code without respecting his copyright terms.

And another fact:
Theres an act of copyright law which basically stands that people can infringe copyright without any repercussions as if is for a review(e.g. a movie) or educational purposes(e.g. internet images in a power point presentation) and doesn't take money for it.


Everybody edits, but some edit more than others

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#7 2016-08-27 22:11:51, last edited by Tomahawk (2016-08-27 22:12:08)

Tomahawk
Forum Mod
From: BiH/UK
Joined: 2015-02-18
Posts: 2,491

Re: About copyright...

Zumza wrote:

So you can do a DigBot(because nobody register a patent for it) but you cant use RealMaster's code without respecting his copyright terms.

Different55 wrote:

As long as you don't reuse his code it should be fine.

I go and code my own Bombot and call it 'Tomabomb'.

Do I get away with it?


One bot to rule them all, one bot to find them. One bot to bring them all... and with this cliché blind them.

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#8 2016-08-27 22:23:36

Zumza
Member
From: root
Joined: 2015-02-17
Posts: 4,559

Re: About copyright...

Tomahawk wrote:

I go and code my own Bombot and call it 'Tomabomb'.

Do I get away with it?

Totally


Everybody edits, but some edit more than others

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#9 2016-08-27 22:25:40

Different55
Forum Admin
Joined: 2015-02-07
Posts: 16,420

Re: About copyright...

No. You'd most likely be burned at the stake for that name. Assuming you change the name and don't reuse any of his code, you're good to go.


"Sometimes failing a leap of faith is better than inching forward"
- ShinsukeIto

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#10 2016-08-27 22:29:54, last edited by Zumza (2016-08-27 22:31:19)

Zumza
Member
From: root
Joined: 2015-02-17
Posts: 4,559

Re: About copyright...

Different55 wrote:

No. You'd most likely be burned at the stake for that name.

* burned at the stake by the community as theres no rule against duplicating worlds name in EE.

I as a user would also prefer to know if its the real bombot before joining the world, but thats just a personal opinion.


Everybody edits, but some edit more than others

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#11 2016-08-27 22:31:05

realmaster42
Formerly marcoantonimsantos
From: ̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍̍
Joined: 2015-02-20
Posts: 1,380
Website

Re: About copyright...

Tomahawk wrote:
Zumza wrote:

So you can do a DigBot(because nobody register a patent for it) but you cant use RealMaster's code without respecting his copyright terms.

Different55 wrote:

As long as you don't reuse his code it should be fine.

I go and code my own Bombot and call it 'Tomabomb'.

Do I get away with it?

Yes, because of the moment YOU write, design and code it, YOU are the author.


If you make a bot just like Bombot and name it something else, it is legal as YOU are the author.
However, if you go take Bombot's source-code and use it as your code, and even if you name it something else, you are no longer the author, and if copyrighted, infriged.
Just hope I don't get even more hate from capasha or whoever from this ._. btw den I know you are reading this //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/tongue


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#12 2016-08-27 22:38:57, last edited by Processor (2016-08-27 22:39:23)

Processor
Member
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 2,173

Re: About copyright...

Oh my god there are so many misinformated people in this thread that I just went ahead and wrote a long post about how IP works. http://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewto … 33#p621033


I have never thought of programming for reputation and honor. What I have in my heart must come out. That is the reason why I code.

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#13 2016-08-27 23:07:12

Tomahawk
Forum Mod
From: BiH/UK
Joined: 2015-02-18
Posts: 2,491

Re: About copyright...

OK, so legally it's fine to rip off an unpatented bot.

Does this hold true within EE? The community - and the original creator - probably wouldn't be happy about a cheap ripoff, and I know that in the past the "Do your best to keep a nice atmosphere in the game." guideline/rule has been applied to bring justice to actions not forbidden by the other rules.

It's fairly widely accepted that copying/plagiarism is wrong. If the above rule about in-game atmosphere is the only one that could currently be applied to ban a copied bot, does that mean bot copying is only wrong if enough fuss is raised?


One bot to rule them all, one bot to find them. One bot to bring them all... and with this cliché blind them.

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#14 2016-08-27 23:13:40

Zumza
Member
From: root
Joined: 2015-02-17
Posts: 4,559

Re: About copyright...

Tomahawk wrote:

OK, so legally it's fine to rip off an unpatented bot.

Does this hold true within EE? The community - and the original creator - probably wouldn't be happy about a cheap ripoff, and I know that in the past the "Do your best to keep a nice atmosphere in the game." guideline/rule has been applied to bring justice to actions not forbidden by the other rules.

It's fairly widely accepted that copying/plagiarism is wrong. If the above rule about in-game atmosphere is the only one that could currently be applied to ban a copied bot, does that mean bot copying is only wrong if enough fuss is raised?

Yes, admins have the right to impose their own rules on that.
However, again as a personal opinion, I would discredit them for doing that.


Everybody edits, but some edit more than others

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#15 2016-08-28 00:44:24, last edited by den3107 (2016-08-28 00:45:09)

den3107
Member
From: Netherlands
Joined: 2015-04-24
Posts: 1,024

Re: About copyright...

So if I'm right:

TL;DR;

I'm fine to make any bot I wish, so long the name is unique and did not copy any code or world designs, unless received an OK from the original author.
Note: This only applies when no trademark and/or patent is placed on the bot or any part of it, making stuff much more complicated.
Note on note: Be honest... Nobodies going to pay for a trademark or patent on a bot for EE...

P.S. Will edit if something is incorrect/incomplete.
Leaving topic open for a little bit before closing in case any corrections come in.

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#16 2016-08-28 01:00:32

Tomahawk
Forum Mod
From: BiH/UK
Joined: 2015-02-18
Posts: 2,491

Re: About copyright...

den3107 wrote:

Leaving topic open for a little bit before closing in case any corrections come in.

You don't think it's an issue that copying like this is allowed?


One bot to rule them all, one bot to find them. One bot to bring them all... and with this cliché blind them.

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#17 2016-08-28 01:03:20, last edited by hummerz5 (2016-08-28 01:03:38)

hummerz5
Member
From: wait I'm not a secret mod huh
Joined: 2015-08-10
Posts: 5,810

Re: About copyright...

Tomahawk wrote:
den3107 wrote:

Leaving topic open for a little bit before closing in case any corrections come in.

You don't think it's an issue that copying like this is allowed?

Are you suggesting we shouldn't allow copying of generic bot-related ideas (as a community)?

If so, we'll need a system that can reliably determine who came up with the idea first, and perhaps some rules as to whether or not they can just sit on a generic idea... and all the other related intellectual tidbits that we'd have to agree on as a community to some extent because I doubt the EE folks would want to arbitrate in that regard

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I'm saying it's considerable.

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#18 2016-08-28 01:06:11

Processor
Member
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 2,173

Re: About copyright...

Owning ideas is a bad idea. It prevents others from making better versions of the same maps or better versions of the same bot. Don't we want that?


I have never thought of programming for reputation and honor. What I have in my heart must come out. That is the reason why I code.

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#19 2016-08-28 01:10:05, last edited by Tomahawk (2016-08-28 01:10:48)

Tomahawk
Forum Mod
From: BiH/UK
Joined: 2015-02-18
Posts: 2,491

Re: About copyright...

hummerz5 wrote:

Are you suggesting we shouldn't allow copying of generic bot-related ideas (as a community)?

I'm fine with copying generic bots, like dig and snake. However, popular private bots like Bombot, YoScroll, EX Shift and so on have made their own little niche, and should be left alone. People should make new bots instead.

Observation: My three bot examples were all BALs. Maybe those should be protected, as a subset of bots in general.


One bot to rule them all, one bot to find them. One bot to bring them all... and with this cliché blind them.

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#20 2016-08-28 01:13:35, last edited by hummerz5 (2016-08-28 01:16:29)

hummerz5
Member
From: wait I'm not a secret mod huh
Joined: 2015-08-10
Posts: 5,810

Re: About copyright...

As a community obviously it would be beneficial to have freedom to do whatever in the interest of expanding horizons and all that.
As a singular bot creator I could see the desire to have something "new and different" that no one snatches away.

In most cases, it seems unlikely in our situation that a bot creator (a curator of ideas) would need to worry about their plans going up in smoke because another user beat them to the punch. It would be upsetting, but also probably not likely.

@ tomahawk: Yeah, that division would make sense. At the same time, the better creation would probably win out with more users. The debate becomes what a user loses by losing their ideas to the public. They're out no material gain, but they may be short otherwise in the popularity department.

The flip-side is true, too: @proc: what is the likelihood of a user wanting to recreate another existing creation? Evidently greater than zero...

edit:
ramble tl;dr, IMO: As a community, all ideas should be considered fair game unless the owner explicitly requests other users to keep away from the specific subset they've created (provided it's a somewhat uncommon one).

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#21 2016-08-28 01:36:46, last edited by Tomahawk (2016-08-28 01:39:51)

Tomahawk
Forum Mod
From: BiH/UK
Joined: 2015-02-18
Posts: 2,491

Re: About copyright...

Processor wrote:

Owning ideas is a bad idea. It prevents others from making better versions of the same maps or better versions of the same bot. Don't we want that?

I think that protecting bots would encourage innovation and diversify the pool of current BAL ideas.

Perhaps every bot could by default be free to copy unless and until the creator actively requested and received an "EE Patent". This would only be approved if their idea was already coded and individual enough to deserve protection. As bots die quickly, and to allow better versions of the bot to be produced by others, this patent would expire in a very short time (i.e. 3 months max) unless renewed.


One bot to rule them all, one bot to find them. One bot to bring them all... and with this cliché blind them.

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#22 2016-08-28 02:02:13

Different55
Forum Admin
Joined: 2015-02-07
Posts: 16,420

Re: About copyright...

You might be overthinking a solution to a problem that doesn't really need solving.


"Sometimes failing a leap of faith is better than inching forward"
- ShinsukeIto

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#23 2016-08-28 02:17:51

Tomahawk
Forum Mod
From: BiH/UK
Joined: 2015-02-18
Posts: 2,491

Re: About copyright...

xD

It's a moral issue and a discussion. Don't be a killjoy; the forum's dead enough already.

Mildly irrelevant yet potentially point-illustrating rhetorical question: If Nub Town has no laws against theft, but nobody steals, is the missing legislation a problem before or after someone bags all the sheep?


One bot to rule them all, one bot to find them. One bot to bring them all... and with this cliché blind them.

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#24 2016-08-28 02:21:13

hummerz5
Member
From: wait I'm not a secret mod huh
Joined: 2015-08-10
Posts: 5,810

Re: About copyright...

I feel that's totally relevant, if not somewhat extensively distanced from the issue...

The beauty of getting a bunch of people together means you don't necessarily NEED predetermined legislation. Given a small enough community, even direct democracies work. In other words, Nub Town could simply convene and decide whether or not the perpetrator should be allowed to "bag the sheep." Even with your example in theory or in this overt meaning of the topic, we could still deal with this on a per-issue basis.

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#25 2016-08-28 02:34:10

Tomahawk
Forum Mod
From: BiH/UK
Joined: 2015-02-18
Posts: 2,491

Re: About copyright...

hummerz5 wrote:

we could still deal with this on a per-issue basis.

So admins/mods will address a bot-copying complaint seriously?

I may have incorrectly assumed from this thread's answers that the answer was "no", and gone on a rant.


One bot to rule them all, one bot to find them. One bot to bring them all... and with this cliché blind them.

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