EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

Minisaurus · 2020-10-19 08:04:11

Gunz 2 completely failed.
Their worst mistake was to not listen their community. The result was a game that completely alienated the essence of its predecessor.
_
EE is very like Gunz 1 when it is about glitches, players found a way to sustainably use glitches as normal gameplay.

EEU is trying really hard to not have any single glitch (not adding any hidden mechanic), I wonder if that will at the end of the road completely kill the game.

Is EEU doing right in making features predictable and making those work like "straight lines"?
Gunz 1 converted glitches into features, cleaning the code so all work correctly.
EE didn´t cleaned its code, glitches were never polished but that was the staff mistake, EE could perfectly clean it´s code so glitches are converted into features.
The death of EE will be very similar to the death of gunz, both games will still be alive but now they are completely abandoned by the staff.
Gunz 2 didn´t only failed when it is about mechanics, it failed in every single aspect of the gameplay..
_
EEU will be like Gunz 2 and completely fail it´s community?
What are your predictions guys?

I personally have the hope that the staff is just making the code simple and clean to then start to add more depth by adding little mechanics and glitches (hidden mechanics).

mutantdevle · 2020-10-19 10:26:52

Minisaurus wrote:

Their worst mistake was to not listen their community.

EEU does not make this mistake. The game is very much driven by community ideas and feedback. If EEU fails it will not be because of any reasons like not listening to the community or fixing glitches, it will be because it wasn’t developed fast enough.

Grilyon2, Slabdrill, Xenonetix

Gosha · 2020-10-19 10:37:47

protip: you won't be accused of not listening to your community if you don't do anything

Norwee · 2020-10-19 11:37:01

I think one of the coolest things about EE was seeing how many creative obstacles and implementations of an glitch was used whenever it was found.

Minisaurus · 2020-10-19 12:12:48

mutantdevle wrote:

EEU does not make this mistake. The game is very much driven by community ideas and feedback.

EE has been holded by many staff teams.
EE features has been indeed suggested by the community.
EEU is indeed trying to be EE successor. That implies to take some of the stuff of EE and add it to EEU.

The staff team is constantly changing, so you can´t really say that the current staff team will do what the previous staff teams did. (Listen to the community)
How can you ensure that this staff team is not failing in this aspect?
I has been staff personally and I have detect this flaw in some aspect of the game development, and it was not just me, but many other staff members who quitted already.

I don´t know if those issues has been solved but the staff hasn´t shown such improvements, as things has been really slow.
The staff is currently failing in time process.
In how many other aspects the current staff is failing?

Joeyjoey65

Andymakeer · 2020-10-19 12:50:46

mutantdevle wrote:

The game is very much driven by community ideas and feedback

Joeyjoey65

Joeyjoey65 · 2020-10-19 14:18:10

mutantdevle wrote:

Minisaurus wrote:
Their worst mistake was to not listen their community.
The game is very much driven by community ideas and feedback.

? lol

XxAtillaxX · 2020-10-19 16:32:47

lol EEU is smiley face yandere simulator and the owners have the same personality

mutantdevle · 2020-10-19 21:49:48

Minisaurus wrote:

The staff team is constantly changing, so you can´t really say that the current staff team will do what the previous staff teams did. (Listen to the community)
How can you ensure that this staff team is not failing in this aspect?
I has been staff personally and I have detect this flaw in some aspect of the game development,

I guess I've had a very different experience being staff than you did. I think listening to the community (specifically in terms of planned features) is one of the strongest things going for EEU. Though the problem remains that the planned features aren't being delivered fast enough.

Minisaurus wrote:

and it was not just me, but many other staff members who quitted already.
I don´t know if those issues has been solved but the staff hasn´t shown such improvements, as things has been really slow.
The staff is currently failing in time process.
In how many other aspects the current staff is failing?

The mass staff leaving had nothing to do with problems with planned features/listening to the community - it was about problems with Xeno. Following this, a bunch of us were hired within a short space of time as each other. The staff team dynamic is now healthier than ever, Xeno has said as such and, judging by what I've read of the staff conversations over the last 2 years, I have to agree. That's not necessarily a criticism of the previous staff, but it definitely looks like there was a case of conflicting personalities in the old staff team. Such a problem no longer exists (without us falling into the trap of just being yes-men).

The 2 areas where EEU could be considered to be failing are:

1. Development speed - We either need to recruit new developers or have our existing developers have a lot more free time to work on the game. Neither of which are particularly easy to achieve.

2. The problems surrounding Xeno being owner - Having a healthier staff dynamic definitely helps here but alongside that Xeno is aware of his flaws and is making efforts to improve them. And that 'making efforts' isn't a baseless promise because I have definitely seen improvements in him.

Right now, the thing that frustrates me the most is being powerless to help the development speed of the game. Because I can see how effectively the rest of the staff dynamic is working. Lucifer has been a huge ray of hope in regards to development but he is very much a short term solution, we still need to take action to ensure consistent development in the long run.

Snowester, Xenonetix

Minisaurus · 2020-10-19 22:58:56

mutantdevle wrote:

. I think listening to the community (specifically in terms of planned features) is one of the strongest things going for EEU.

Can you prove this? Or you can't give a single example of what you insinuate?
I haven't seen the staff replying as often as you imply. The staff usually negate and ignore any opposite feedback.

mutantdevle wrote:

The staff team dynamic is now healthier than ever, Xeno has said as such

What is healthy in your point of view?
The previous staff did all the work that what you see in EEU, and made a lot of work that is still pending to be released. As I see it the efficiency of the staff remain the same or even less productive than the previous staff.
You haven't prove any of your points and the current game status is not helping you either.

The guy that is doing something amazing in the current staff is Lucifer and sadly this remarkable staff member is not planning to stay aboard.

mutantdevle

LukeM · 2020-10-19 23:05:01

▼mutantdevle wrote:

Minisaurus wrote:

The staff team is constantly changing, so you can´t really say that the current staff team will do what the previous staff teams did. (Listen to the community)
How can you ensure that this staff team is not failing in this aspect?
I has been staff personally and I have detect this flaw in some aspect of the game development,

I guess I've had a very different experience being staff than you did. I think listening to the community (specifically in terms of planned features) is one of the strongest things going for EEU. Though the problem remains that the planned features aren't being delivered fast enough.

Minisaurus wrote:

and it was not just me, but many other staff members who quitted already.
I don´t know if those issues has been solved but the staff hasn´t shown such improvements, as things has been really slow.
The staff is currently failing in time process.
In how many other aspects the current staff is failing?

The mass staff leaving had nothing to do with problems with planned features/listening to the community - it was about problems with Xeno. Following this, a bunch of us were hired within a short space of time as each other. The staff team dynamic is now healthier than ever, Xeno has said as such and, judging by what I've read of the staff conversations over the last 2 years, I have to agree. That's not necessarily a criticism of the previous staff, but it definitely looks like there was a case of conflicting personalities in the old staff team. Such a problem no longer exists (without us falling into the trap of just being yes-men).

The 2 areas where EEU could be considered to be failing are:

1. Development speed - We either need to recruit new developers or have our existing developers have a lot more free time to work on the game. Neither of which are particularly easy to achieve.

2. The problems surrounding Xeno being owner - Having a healthier staff dynamic definitely helps here but alongside that Xeno is aware of his flaws and is making efforts to improve them. And that 'making efforts' isn't a baseless promise because I have definitely seen improvements in him.

Right now, the thing that frustrates me the most is being powerless to help the development speed of the game. Because I can see how effectively the rest of the staff dynamic is working. Lucifer has been a huge ray of hope in regards to development but he is very much a short term solution, we still need to take action to ensure consistent development in the long run.

I found that the biggest problem before was morale, for example there would constantly be drama between usually Xeno and the community, and he would frequently have outbursts at members of the team, including occasionally going as far as making threats to try to get people to do what he wants or saying things like he wants to shoot certain staff members (hopefully just a joke in poor taste), which really doesn't help with the team's dynamic.

I've obviously left the team so I haven't seen much first hand, but from what I've heard from people and from what I've seen in the EEU discord this hasn't really stopped, and until that happens it seems like nobody is really enjoying working on the game. Since this is just a hobby and doesn't help with career progression or anything, the only way to justify spending a lot of time on it is if you're enjoying it, so even though there are many people in the community who are skilled enough to help, very few are willing to do it in that sort of hostile environment.

rat, Joeyjoey65, mutantdevle

mutantdevle · 2020-10-20 00:03:59

Minisaurus wrote:

Can you prove this? Or you can't give a single example of what you insinuate?
I haven't seen the staff replying as often as you imply. The staff usually negate and ignore any opposite feedback.

I've been assuming that you've made graphics for some of the things I'm referring to, though from your response here I guess you didn't. I'm not going to mention anything in particular but what I will say is that most of the time when something is suggested we are either already planning to add it in some form (eventually) or then talk about it in some way. I do think that we could do a better job of saying "yeah, this is something we are considering/have planned" but I think it's a case of partially not wanting to spoil people on what's to come because it's nice to have some surprises but also because our response to pretty much everything would be "we are/will consider it". The best place for community feedback would probably be the EEU discord since people directly @ing Xeno there often results in him sharing more.

Minisaurus wrote:

What is healthy in your point of view?

LukeM wrote:

I found that the biggest problem before was morale, for example there would constantly be drama between usually Xeno and the community, and he would frequently have outbursts at members of the team, including occasionally going as far as making threats to try to get people to do what he wants or saying things like he wants to shoot certain staff members (hopefully just a joke in poor taste), which really doesn't help with the team's dynamic.
I've obviously left the team so I haven't seen much first hand, but from what I've heard from people and from what I've seen in the EEU discord this hasn't really stopped, and until that happens it seems like nobody is really enjoying working on the game. Since this is just a hobby and doesn't help with career progression or anything, the only way to justify spending a lot of time on it is if you're enjoying it, so even though there are many people in the community who are skilled enough to help, very few are willing to do it in that sort of hostile environment.

Since I've joined there have been 0 arguments between the staff (that I'm aware of at least). I think morale is quite high amongst us moderators as well as for the music composers and with Lucifer's work being a catalyst for that; he definitely doesn't seem to have any motivation issues. As it stands, I do not agree with the notion that you can't criticise Xeno because I have done so on several occasions since becoming staff. He isn't perfect by any means, he still gets into arguments in the EEU discord from time to time as you'd have seen. But I hope you've also seen that he's a lot less destructive in those arguments and some of the arguments have even resulted in productive outcomes.

Minisaurus wrote:

As I see it the efficiency of the staff remain the same or even less productive than the previous staff.

You're only basing this on the development side of things. Like I say, every other aspect of the staff team is working very effectively. We're not going to pretend that we don't have an issue with development right now, but that doesn't mean the whole process is dysfunctional.

Xenonetix

LukeM · 2020-10-20 01:24:19

Idk why, but it seems like it's the developers that have the biggest problems with him, I think almost every past dev has said that they've struggled to work with him for some reason or another. I guess maybe programming usually takes the longest so he tries to put on extra pressure to make it go faster?

N1KF · 2020-10-20 07:03:29

mutantdevle wrote:

The 2 areas where EEU could be considered to be failing are:
1. Development speed - We either need to recruit new developers or have our existing developers have a lot more free time to work on the game. Neither of which are particularly easy to achieve.
2. The problems surrounding Xeno being owner - Having a healthier staff dynamic definitely helps here but alongside that Xeno is aware of his flaws and is making efforts to improve them. And that 'making efforts' isn't a baseless promise because I have definitely seen improvements in him.

EEU is failing to gain hype. Knowledge varies among EE players, the closed beta usually has no players online, and the even the staff don't bother posting when EEU updates most of the time. To me it feels like a niche within a niche, a goal of replacing EE with perfection when EE's appeal was never perfection. EE has a community that has developed thousands of worlds with this janky system, and EEU still isn't fun enough to keep an active lobby among 1,000+ beta players who specifically opted in to play it.

We've been waiting nearly five years since Nou annunced EE's move from Flash and I'm losing my patience. Flash is dying, Everybody Edits is dying, and all I hear is either "soon" or another estimated timespan that goes and passes with nothing new of substance. EE has done great things, and the staff are taking a leap of faith into EEU. If it's good enough to abandon 500,000+ worlds over, it needs to be very good, and there's no evidence that we're reaching that anytime soon.

mutantdevle, Blackmask

mutantdevle · 2020-10-20 13:23:50

N1KF wrote:

Knowledge varies among EE players

This is definitely a problem that I'd like to see changed, we need to consolidate all publically known information in a way that is easily accessible because current knowledge of EEU varies wildly. Perhaps if I get a few hours of free time soon I will go through that effort myself.

And yeah, I share your frustration about the lack of progress; I think we all do.

N1KF

chzandham · 2020-10-20 14:24:14

mutantdevle wrote:

If EEU fails it will not be because of any reasons like not listening to the community or fixing glitches, it will be because it wasn’t developed fast enough.

I don't necessarily agree with this statement. If anything, it's miscommunication and lack of proper direction. Over the years people have left the staff team left and right, and development has been halted constantly over the years.

Everybody Edits Universe has been in development even BEFORE the Everybody Edits 2.0 Update, which was released August 20, 2015.

Everybody Edits is already pretty much a ghost town, so what makes you think that Everybody Edits Universe won't have the same fate?

It took five years for Daisuke "Pixel" Amaya to develop Cave Story, an entire game that was created by one man, in just five years.

You can't roll the dice on a game that's hardly balancing on the platform. The release date is being pushed further and further overtime, so who's gonna be there in the end?

I apologize if I sound rude, but I'm just exhausted by all of these posts and the constant messages being passed around back and forth with no resolve whatsoever.

Citation(s):

https://wiki.everybodyedits.com/Everybo … Update_2.0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisuke_Amaya

TaskManager · 2020-10-20 15:02:40

aaaaaaa walls of texts minisaurus i understand but mutant this isnt mafia

mutantdevle

mutantdevle · 2020-10-20 15:25:18

chzandham wrote:

I don't necessarily agree with this statement. If anything, it's miscommunication and lack of proper direction. Over the years people have left the staff team left and right, and development has been halted constantly over the years.

I don't agree at all that the direction is an issue. The direction that Xeno has taken the game in is something I have always liked about his ownership. The problem is that the plan has been very poorly executed for multiple reasons. And again, staff leaving is due to all the drama/internal conflicts which (so far) does not seem to be an issue for the current staff team and I intend for it to stay that way.

As for miscommunication, I agree to the extent that the timeframes that have been given over the years have never been met (hence why timeframes are rarely given anymore). I also agree that Xeno has a tendency to miscommunicate things when drama occurs. But as a whole I think the staff have been pretty good at communicating their plans for the future (Ie, Xeno's threads on the forums and Joshua Stone's weekly development vlogs) - it's just executing those plans for the future that has fallen flat.

chzandham wrote:

Everybody Edits Universe has been in development even BEFORE the Everybody Edits 2.0 Update, which was released August 20, 2015.

It's possible there were plans for a reboot back then but I don't know what the wiki's source for that is. But for EEU specifically February 2018 is where Xeno first mentions his plan for a reboot and it's clear that it was still very early in the planning stages back then.

chzandham wrote:

Everybody Edits is already pretty much a ghost town, so what makes you think that Everybody Edits Universe won't have the same fate?

Hope. There's no guarantee that EEU is going to be successful. It certainly won't if we continue at this rate of progress. But it certainly has the potential to be relatively successful and as long as there are still people willing to work on the game I see no reason to give up.

TaskManager wrote:

aaaaaaa walls of texts minisaurus i understand but mutant this isnt mafia

I miss mafia

TaskManager · 2020-10-20 15:34:56

mutantdevle wrote:

I miss mafia

oh you miss a band of criminals seeking to destroy the town?

!vote mutantdevle

mutantdevle

Xenonetix · 2020-10-20 15:47:32

chzandham wrote:

Everybody Edits Universe has been in development even BEFORE the Everybody Edits 2.0 Update, which was released August 20, 2015.

Not quite - "UnitEE" was in development during that time, and was scrapped. EE Universe itself has only been in development since mid-2018.

chzandham wrote:

It took five years for Daisuke "Pixel" Amaya to develop Cave Story, an entire game that was created by one man, in just five years.

Cave Story is a great game, and there are many other examples of indie games developed in shorter or similar timespans, such as the Touhou Series, Undertale, and Hollow Knight, all of which have had either 1, 2, or 3 people working on them, but they're not online multiplayer games, which is a very different beast when it comes to development. I still accept we are developing the game at a slower rate than we would have liked, but a comparison to Cave Story doesn't make that much sense here. I guess the closest equivalent I can think of is the two Gower Brothers alone creating/developing RuneScape from 1999 to 2001, running it by themselves until December 2001 when they created JaGex and started hiring more people to work on it.

Nevertheless, if you're giving us a five year timespan, we have until 2023.

LukeM · 2020-10-20 15:48:43

Just to be clear, I’m not saying that EEU should be given up on, just that we might be overdue an ownership change, as it seems like if that were to happen many more skilled developers would be willing to help with the game (including me).

Xeno likes to put the blame for a lack of progress on the past developers, but since it has now been just as slow if not slower with several new developers, I think it’s clear that the problem lies elsewhere.

mutantdevle

Minisaurus · 2020-10-20 15:51:30

Xenonetix wrote:

UnitEE" was in development during that time, and was scrapped.

It was, I tested it, and it was scrapped ONLY because the developers quitted and then NVD replaced NOU.
The project had huge potential.

mutantdevle wrote:

It certainly won't if we continue at this rate of progress

The slow time of development is only a secondary issue.

I am more afraid of the staff not fixing the tons of issues EEU has right now.
As I see it, the current staff is very likely to not be aware of those flaws or are going to just ignore those flaws.

You can't build a great building on a weak foundation

Xenonetix · 2020-10-20 15:56:32

Minisaurus wrote:

I am more afraid of the staff not fixing the tons of issues EEU has right now.
As I see it, the current staff is very likely to not be aware of those flaws or are going to just ignore those flaws.

Got a list?

Minisaurus · 2020-10-20 16:00:42

Xenonetix wrote:

Got a list?

I don´t keep a list of every single flaw I find in the game, and I most likely miss and forget some of those in the pass of time. And there might be more flaws than what I can see.
I extensively reviewed EEU in those topics:
https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … p?id=47103
https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … p?id=47053
https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … p?id=47026

Althought I haven´t finished my personal inspection of the game, I has reviewed in those topics many important aspects of EEU that should be improved.
Surprisingly I have got almost 0 dialogue and replies from the staff about those topics (In the EE forums), and not just me but other topics from other players has also received 0 attention from the staff.
(Altought, I think that dialogue only one step of a more complex process of reasoning and analisis that finally leads to a complete thought and potentially a decition.)

Xenonetix

mutantdevle · 2020-10-20 17:07:12

Minisaurus wrote:

I am more afraid of the staff not fixing the tons of issues EEU has right now.
As I see it, the current staff is very likely to not be aware of those flaws or are going to just ignore those flaws.

Why do you think we are unaware of the flaws? I'd like to think that we are very aware of them. The problematic physics is a very well documented thing which is why everything physics related is not set in stone at this stage of development. I guess it may appear like we are ignoring those flaws because we've not actually done anything physical to fix or change them yet, but we definitely do plan on changing them.

Official Everybody Edits Forums

#1 2020-10-19 08:04:11, last edited by Minisaurus (2020-10-19 08:58:44)

EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#2 2020-10-19 10:26:52

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#3 2020-10-19 10:37:47

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#4 2020-10-19 11:37:01

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#5 2020-10-19 12:12:48, last edited by Minisaurus (2020-10-19 12:17:07)

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#6 2020-10-19 12:50:46

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#7 2020-10-19 14:18:10

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#8 2020-10-19 16:32:47

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#9 2020-10-19 21:49:48

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#10 2020-10-19 22:58:56, last edited by Minisaurus (2020-10-19 23:16:31)

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#11 2020-10-19 23:05:01

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#12 2020-10-20 00:03:59

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#13 2020-10-20 01:24:19

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#14 2020-10-20 07:03:29

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#15 2020-10-20 13:23:50

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#16 2020-10-20 14:24:14

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#17 2020-10-20 15:02:40

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#18 2020-10-20 15:25:18

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#19 2020-10-20 15:34:56

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

!vote mutantdevle

#20 2020-10-20 15:47:32

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#21 2020-10-20 15:48:43

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#22 2020-10-20 15:51:30, last edited by Minisaurus (2020-10-20 15:56:47)

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#23 2020-10-20 15:56:32

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#24 2020-10-20 16:00:42, last edited by Minisaurus (2020-10-20 16:33:05)

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

#25 2020-10-20 17:07:12

Re: EEU is like Gunz 2: The second duel?

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