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Minisaurus

Banned

EE in additional dimensions (Tool/Zone)

This video (from 0:45 to 2:20) explains it.

Basically switching from layers using an action tool that teleports the smiley to the layer in front or behind.
Could have ID, so using teleporter that brings to layer ID 1 teleports you to that exactly position in layer ID 1 (X:214, Y:231 for example), but only if possible, if there is something blocking the path to that position in layer 1 then you can´t use it (For example a block or a door)
There could be a randomizer option (-1) that brings randomly between available layers (The owner needs to create layers in order to make them available for the game)
The builder that switch between layers to build the world, it requires a tab to organize layers and select them (Could be a zone type tab)
There could be a limit of layers per world, for example 20 layers.
It is sorta many worlds in a single world (it is actually one world in different dimentions).
The "tool" could be automatic (when touching it) or requiring the player to press a key to activate it.
The different layers could have different sizes, the builder could use a zone-like tool that allow to decide the size of the layer (The world size defines the maximum size that the layer can have).
Uses would be minis, puzzles, houses, interiors in general, caves, forests, etc.
The minimap displays only the current layer the player is in.

Here I made a rough example using 3 different worlds, this concept tries to use the dimetional space accurately, but is not a need for the player to do so, just for aesthetics of the game concept in this case: https://everybodyedits.com/games/PW9MpNNV0EbEI
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Update: As Grilyon2 suggested, instead of layer teleporter, the player could just be teleporte using normal blue portals.

Gosha

Member

From: Russia

Joined: 2015-03-15

Posts: 6,211

Re: EE in additional dimensions (Tool/Zone)

eeu: *2 months of development*: "hey we added some new blocks"
Minisaurus: EveRyBodIEdItS In 4D

Minisaurus

Banned

Re: EE in additional dimensions (Tool/Zone)

The suggestion is to make somewhat layers that results in something that could be considered as a 3d environment. Nothing to do with a 4d environment. (It would still use the normal 2D environment being a 4D instead tho).
What this suggestion adds is an additional dimension, which is Z. The layers of the Z dimensions are aligned as it were a cube.
You simply teleport from layer to layer using the feature suggested.
I called those dimensions, but those could be called layers too, does not matter.

Gonna give my guess of how a simplified 4D EE would be like:
This video is another example (of the same thing) of a 2d object moving in other dimensions]

(2:03 to 2:27) The smiley would be the chess piece.

I guess a 4D teleport in EE environment would require to add an additional ID to the tool, it would have two separated IDs, layer IDa (3D movement) and layer IDb (4D movement) (It would require to set the ID for the 3d layer and the ID for the 4d layer, for example 4d1-3d1, teleports you to 4d1-3d1)
The 4D position of an object could be repeated as a mirror in all the 3d layers of the same 3d level in all the 4d dimensions present in the world, but that would mean to repeat always the same in the layers of 3d of all 4d levels, it would be more interesting to allow to differentiate every 3d level layer from other 4d levels (independient 4d levels as a result) the object would be only present in the 4d dimension it was placed, that is more interesting and gives actually the feeling of having an additional 4 dimension.
Also, you could teleport to either whatever 3d layer in whatever 4d layer, or you could need to be in the same 3d cell level to teleport to the 3d cell of the same 3d level of other 4d layer, this last option gives more versatility, so is better option for this feature.
(3D layers are like onion skins, as I suggested, those onion skins could have customized size instead of being all of the same size).
(4D layer are in this case also onion skins but to enter in those you have to move from 4D to 4D instead from 3D to 3D.) (Those onion skins are 2D layers, called 3Dx being x the ID of that 2D layer) (The default 3D layer of the 4D layer is 1 but can be whatever ID, also for the 4d ID)

Example.1:
If you are in dimention 4D1 you can move as normal in the 3d layer you are in (Default 3d layer is always 3d1), and move freely between all the 3D layers that corresponds to that 4D dimention (in this case 4D1).

Example.2:
200x200 Is the default world size in this case.
in your world you have:
- 4D1 has one 3D layer in (the default 2D layer in the 3D placement) 3D1 (200x200 Default world size) you can move in those 3D layers while you are into the 4D3
- 4D2 has three layers that are positioned in layer 3D1(100x50 (need to be palced inside the coordinates of the default world size)) 3D2 (20x30 (need to be palced inside the coordinates of the default world size)) and 3D3 (10x40 (need to be palced inside the coordinates of the default world size)), you can move in those 3D layers while you are into the 4D2
- 4D3 has two layers that are positioned in layer 3D3 (40x70 (need to be palced inside the coordinates of the default world size)) and 3D4 (50x90 (need to be palced inside the coordinates of the default world size)), you can move in those 3D layers while you are into the 4D3
If you want to go from 4D1-3D1 (4D1 onion layer 3D1) to 4D2-3D3, the 3D3 layer of the 4D2 dimension need to have an available space in that X,Y position that the tool was placed in the 4D1-3D1 to teleport to the 4D2-3D3 (Lets say X:13-Y: 144) so if the tool was placed in the 4D1-3D1 X:13-Y: 144, it would need to teleport you to an available space in the X:13-Y: 144 of the 4D2-3D3
If there is no availability of the X:13-Y: 144 space in the 4D2-3D3, then you can´t teleport.
but you could teleport for example to the 4D3- 3D3 if the tool instead had that diraection setted and there was availability in the X:13-Y: 144 space of the 4D3- 3D3 dimension.

Here is a isometrical graphic representation of the example above : (size and position might not be accurate)
Gray squares: The representation of the full world size, does not represent a layer iteself. (The layer does not exist unless it is activated)
Black squares: Actived 3D layers of a 4D layer.
Red dot: Where the tool is placed (in this example it is placed in X:13-Y: 144)
Green dot: Where the tool want to send you
Blue dot: Theorically possible place where the tool could send you (but in this case it does not)

▼Isometric view example of the proposition above:

So far this mix of numbers are not really more useful than a 3D-layer-onion-skin-only-feature, is sorta the same as it were just 3D but adding some additional rules to the feature.

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If we add an additional rule that only allow to move from layer 4da-3db being b the number that matters, if you are in layer 4d1-3d1 and want to move to layer 4d2-3d2, you can´t as you can only move in direct position when moving from 4d layer to 4d layer, so you would only be able to move from layer 4d1-3d1 to the same 3d layer of the other 4d layers, 4d2-3d1 in this case.
This additional rule would limit movement from 4d layer to 4d layer tho but add more usefulness to the 4d feature.

If this rule were implemented then the only places where the tool (the red dot) could teleport would be those places (represented using a orange dot)
Red dot: Where the tool is placed (in this example it is placed in X:13-Y: 144)
Orange dot: Place&layer where the red dot could teleport you (In this case it would only be possible to teleport from 4D1-3D1-(X:13-Y: 144) to 4D2-3D2-(X:13-Y: 144))

Additional rules could be implemented to polish the 4d feature and give it more depth as such.
This could lead to actual interesting mazes, but not as intuitive as just having a "3d" layer type feature.

(Btw, the simplified concept of a 4d EE above is represented as a 3d multiverse EE rather than an actual 4d EE, 4d EE if it were implemented as an actual 4d concept with superposition of object, altered objects and such weird stuff, it would be a terrible mess maybe (ignoring dimension of time I guess))
Btw, those are just speculations of how I think that the "4D" ("5D") EE would work.

Grilyon2

Member

From: Chile

Joined: 2015-02-15

Posts: 374

Re: EE in additional dimensions (Tool/Zone)

Layers could cost energy per world, because is like, 20 worlds in 1

Minisaurus

Banned

Re: EE in additional dimensions (Tool/Zone)

Layers could cost energy per world, because is like, 20 worlds in 1

Rather than that, I consider it better to purchase previously to the creation of the additional layer "pixels"
For example, to make a layer that has a perimeter of 20x30 (600 pixels of area in total) you would need to previously purchase 600 pixels.
If you previously bought 2000 pixels, then you can use 600 of those to purchase the 20x30 additional layer for your world.

In this case, you can delete this layer, or expand it.
If you expand it: You need to spend additional pixels depending on the amount of pixels extra you want to add.
If you reduce or delete the layer: You re-obtain the amount of pixels you had deleted, removed.

It would be better that you instead add the pixels purchased to the world.
Example:
Send 2000 of your pixels to X world.
Now this world has 2000 pixels that can be placed into additional layers for that X world.
You can´t re-obtain that 2000 pixels you added to that world, those pixels are now permanently attached to that X world.
(If the main world layer is 200x200, you have to place all additional layers inside the canvas of that main world layer)

_

Btw, if I remember right when I was connected in EE with Lictor in the world we created "Mossy land" we was talking about connecting multiple worlds, and (maybe this is a false memory of mine) Xenonetix was there also and said something about EEU "merge" or connect multiple worlds as a single one, maybe this feature is actually what he had in mind :o

peace

Member

From: admin land

Joined: 2015-08-10

Posts: 9,226

Re: EE in additional dimensions (Tool/Zone)

no

E: EE is mean tto be an 2D game keep it like that an ddont add confusion also wouldnt you see backgrounds of othe rlayres ( i asume you mean 3D)

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thanks hg for making this much better and ty for my avatar aswell

Minisaurus

Banned

Re: EE in additional dimensions (Tool/Zone)

( i asume you mean 3D)

Not talking about 3D graphics.

In this topic we are talkign about 2D stack of layers
The suggestion is to add a layer feature (and it´s organizer tab), this has been discussed previously in the staff and in the forums.
EEU will actually introduce a ton of different type of layers, graphically and for gameplay, it currently has many layers already and will add a lot of more type of layers.

I am here suggesting an additional approach to layers for EEU, those could help builders  and players for literally all and every type of game concepts.
With this you would play EE as normal but it would allow to create layers in the same world that let you build interiors or alternate universes or even systems to support your main world.
This suggestion would actually has the purpose of this feature: https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … p?id=47119 but optimized tremendously making everything much more intuitive for the builder and the player, helping building and improving the gameplay of the world.
I don´t say the red portal switches would not be helpful, as those could be used for other type of world connections, in this suggestion you keep absolutely everything from layer to layer without resetting anything, is the same world in different dimensions basically.

Here is an example of this suggestion:
This example will conceptualize this world example I made and how the layer feature would approach it:
https://everybodyedits.com/games/PW9MpNNV0EbEI
We have here three layers:
LAYER 1:
- It has one layer "teleporter" in position (6,20)(red dot) that brings you to LAYER 2 in the position (6,20)(orange dot too)
(In case there was something blocking the position (6,20) on the world LAYER 2, then you would not be able to use the teleporter until that obstacle in position (6,20) is removed on the layer 2).
(It simply teleports you to that position, no need to add a second artifact in LAYER 2, but you could add a layer teleporter tool in the same position on the LAYER 2 so it sends you back to layer 1 in the same position too)
LAYER 2:
- It has one layer "teleporter" in position (14,22)(blue dot) that brings you to LAYER 3 in the position (14,22)(cyan dot)
LAYER 3:
- It has one layer "teleporter" in position (23,20)(green dot) that brings you to LAYER 1 in the position (23,20)(yellow dot)
This is a isometrical visualization of how the layers would be positioned:

▼only dots & layer size

Red dot sends to orange dot, but orange dot does not send to red dot (orange dot does not exists as an object, is just the area where the blue dot sends the smiley to the targeted layer) (Red dot is the "teleporter tool)
Blue dot sends to cyan dot, but cyan dot does not send to blue dot (cyan dot does not exists as an object, is just the area where the blue dot sends the smiley to the targeted layer) (Blue dot is the "teleporter tool)
Green dot sends to yellow dot, but cyan dot does not send to blue dot (yellow dot does not exists as an object, is just the area where the blue dot sends the smiley to the targeted layer) (Green dot is the "teleporter tool)
Additional layer connections can be done, there is no limit of how much layer connections a world can have.

Grilyon2

Member

From: Chile

Joined: 2015-02-15

Posts: 374

Re: EE in additional dimensions (Tool/Zone)

As i see it, is basically a way to expand the size of the world, with the differance this makes new minimaps. However, I dislike the idea of making a "one layer teleporter" going to the same coordinates to another layer, instead, it should be a normal portal.

The purchasable layers should cost 150% of the original world, because the "pixels" are... too hard? i think it would be hard to developers to program it and to players to manage it.
It would be good to introduce this to EEU, because sometimes the worlds looks so small even if they are 300x300, and making "layers" into EE consumes a lot of space, and the world portals/wp start points doesn't carry the player data.

▼This 18x8 world with 8x8 consumed space to make the interior of the house and cave, that is how actually EE works

▼The same 18x8 world, but the 8x8 space is free, because of the layers. this is how the suggestions works

Minisaurus

Banned

Re: EE in additional dimensions (Tool/Zone)

The problem is that the mini-map is a mess, the minimap should only show what is contained in the layer you are in.
Normal portals could indeed work to teleport between layer to layer, agreed with that.
The big problem I see with your first picture is that you are working in a single layer, making it impossible to expand layers (That image is actually already possible to implement in EEU using vision zones and portals)
Your suggestion to expand the world to a bigger helps in case the world you builded can´t handle all the content you wanted to add.
_
My suggestion does not expand the size of the world as you suggest, but creates alternate worlds connected to the main world.
Each layer should be considered a "different world" while building but the same world while playing, that is why I called those "dimensions" in the title of this topic.
You can use as much space you want in every layer you have unrestricted of other layers (depending on the max size of the world you had created of course).
There is a tab, could be positioned in zone layers, works as the layer organizer of photoshop. While you are playing you only can interact and see (in-game and in-minimap) the layer you are inside.
When you build layers, you create those in the same X and Y coordinates (There could be two identical layers in the coordinates (x:10 to 20 and y:10 to 20 (10x10), but in alternate layers. (While you build you only can see the layer you had selected to edit).

Grilyon2

Member

From: Chile

Joined: 2015-02-15

Posts: 374

Re: EE in additional dimensions (Tool/Zone)

My suggestion does not expand the size of the world as you suggest, but creates alternate worlds connected to the main world.

Yeah i didn't explain well, i meant the same as you, but in that image i was showing an example of what i said in the last paragraph (The yellow borders are visual zones, all in the 18x8 world, that is possible now, but consumes space)

making "layers" into EE consumes a lot of space

peace

Member

From: admin land

Joined: 2015-08-10

Posts: 9,226

Re: EE in additional dimensions (Tool/Zone)

in my eyes that still dounds like 3D as you are adding Z coordinate (to find out in which layer you are (and keep Xand Y for the normla purposes) and in my eyes X+Y=2D and X+Y+Z=3D

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thanks hg for making this much better and ty for my avatar aswell

Different55

Forum Admin

Joined: 2015-02-07

Posts: 16,575

Re: EE in additional dimensions (Tool/Zone)

Adding an unlimited amount of layers sounds like it could have some interesting creative uses, but just 2 solid layers is probably enough. And if you could make world portals more seamless, that seems like a good way to implement it without vastly complicating everything. Is there anything in this idea that couldn't be done with high performance world portals?

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"Sometimes failing a leap of faith is better than inching forward"
- ShinsukeIto

TaskManager

Formerly maxi123

From: i really should update this

Joined: 2015-03-01

Posts: 9,465

Re: EE in additional dimensions (Tool/Zone)

Adding an unlimited amount of layers sounds like it could have some interesting creative uses

128 layers of coin sound playing at the same time

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signature by HG, profile picture by bluecloud, thank!!
previous signature by drstereos

Minisaurus

Banned

Re: EE in additional dimensions (Tool/Zone)

128 layers of coin sound playing at the same time

You would only be able to interact with one layer per time, in order to interact with a layer you need to teleport to that layer using a blue portal.
Anyway, I think you are thinking this suggestion as graphical layers, and it is not a graphical layer, there are plans for EEU to stack different graphical layers in top of each other, this would allow to have water in front of blocks for example, or a flower in top of a block too, it would still not allow to stack the same object twice in the same position tho.
And this suggestion of dimensions (layers) wouldn´t either allow to interact with multiple dimensions at the same time, so no 128 layers of coin sound playing at the same time would be able with any of those two features of the game.

I don´t know what should be the max amount of layers for a world.
I was thinking that if the max amount of pixels for a world in EEU is 240000 (for example, not sure what is the max world size for EEU), then an additional 40000 pixels would be good, so the max amount of layers would depend of the number of pixels the world has in total rather than the amount of number of layers the world contain. I guess the max amount of pixels for a world would be 240000 + 40000 (for additional layers). Being the max amount of pixels in total 280000 counting the world size and the additional layers. So you could build a world that contain 200000 pixels and add to it 80000 pixels as layers (That amount of pixels for additional layers could handle for example 8 layers that contains 10000 pixels each). (The smaller the main world layer is the larger the amount of pixels for additional layers you can add to the world)

And the max number of layers to keep it reasonable could be probably 50, I don´t think anyone would need ever more than 50 layers (but here could be cases, it all depends on the complexity of the world the builder is creating, 50 is an approximate of a reasonable max amount of layers but it could be more if players request so to the staff).

Is there anything in this idea that couldn't be done with high performance world portals?

I assume your idea of a high performance world portal is a world portal that keeps everything from one world to other world, even more, lets assume this world portal can actually keep momentum from world to world as a blue portal could do.
The problem is that those two worlds are indeed separated worlds, one of those world does not literally affect the other world, there is no true link between those two worlds, they do not interact. I can´t imagine a way a yellow coin placed in the X:12 Y:15 in world A to be remembered in world B to track for example what coin exactly the player took from the other world that is now seen as taken in the new world.
Everything over complicates a lot when there are additional worlds that suppose to be linked by just the player teleporting to those using the high perforamce world portal.
For me it is impossible to consider two worlds to be connected simply by this feature, there would need to actually consider those two worlds the same to make this feature actually work and that would require more than just a portal but an actual connetion between those world in addition to that portal teleporters.
Maybe the developers figure out how to keep coins and other kind of items working from world to world, I currently think it is simply impossible or rather than that, undesired.
I disagree about 2 layers, is not enough for most of the projects, as there are many fragments of the world that would require separated layers, giving only two layers destroys the purpose of the feature in the first place. Just think for example a world that want to be splitted in morning-afternoon-evening-night, and inside each of them to have a lot of houses with interiors (lets say 7 houses), If you want that to look good in mini-map and in-game, you would need at least 32 layers (4 layers for the times of the day and 28 layers for the interiors of houses for each daytime).
It would be the same to either build in a single or two layers, there is no improvement in just two layers at all, so, many layers is the way to go to truly add a feature that keeps an eye on advanced projects.
_

The layer feature is actually a "high performance world portal" without the need of a high performance world portal, you keep all your attached worlds connected in a single world, it is indeed as Grilyon2 pointed out, a single world "expansion", but it being is arranged in layers.
While game-play (you being the player) the world connections feel like if those were the same world, but you need to teleport to a layer in order to interact with that layer.
While building the layer feature has a lot of more advantages than a high performance world portal, since having those worlds working as layers helps you to actually connect those like a single world.

The layer feature can be thinked as a single big layer but organized in different dimensions.
As this example of a chess table being splitted in 4 different parts and then being arranged in "layers" one in top of the other, it still being the same "single" chess table but now it has been splitted.

(In the gif you can see all the layers at the same time, but in-game you would not, you would only see a single layer per time, and those would be added in the same X,Y position, the only that would be completely different is the Z additional dimension)

The layers would be in the same X,Y position (but not in the same Z position)

And you would only be able to see and be in one of those (4 layers in this example) at-a-time, this one layer for example and like this:

So it is basically the "same" layer splitted in different layers. (In other words, a world splitted in different dimensions but still behaving as a single world.)
Now, instead of splitting the actual world, this suggetion of a layer feature allow to create additional "chess tables" of different proportions that are stacked on top of each other.
Imagine the same gif but instead of dividing the chess table, in this case you create new chess table space and those are stacked on top of each other, but all of those have to be considered the "same" chess table.
The only way you can enter in one of those segments of the chess table (layers) is by being teleported to those using a blue portal (Or any other kind of portal with the assimilated purpose of blue portals).