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#26 2019-08-18 17:43:53

Kira
Member
Joined: 2019-04-22
Posts: 540

Re: EE became smoother

PiotrGrochowski wrote:

HTML5 is very CPU intensive, it's even possible to use some extreme operations in it. Windows XP as an x86-optimized Win32-structured system does not allow such extreme operations that make the system slow like Windows 10 is, no wonder both Google Chrome and Mozilla Firefox have no more update support. I would rather use good old optimized software than something that will require me to spend like $1000000000000000 just because my $100000000 hardware is outdated by a few years.

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#27 2019-08-18 17:49:07

Growler
Formerly Snowester
Joined: 2017-05-31
Posts: 432

Re: EE became smoother

PiotrGrochowski wrote:

HTML5 is very CPU intensive, it's even possible to use some extreme operations in it. Windows XP as an x86-optimized Win32-structured system does not allow such extreme operations that make the system slow like Windows 10 is, no wonder both Google Chrome and Mozilla Firefox have no more update support. I would rather use good old optimized software than something that will require me to spend like $1000000000000000 just because my $100000000 hardware is outdated by a few years.

Get a better computing teacher or do your research properly.


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#28 2019-08-18 17:54:23, last edited by LukeM (2019-08-18 17:55:17)

LukeM
Dev Team
From: England
Joined: 2016-06-03
Posts: 2,876
Website

Re: EE became smoother

PiotrGrochowski wrote:

HTML5 is very CPU intensive, it's even possible to use some extreme operations in it. Windows XP as an x86-optimized Win32-structured system does not allow such extreme operations that make the system slow like Windows 10 is, no wonder both Google Chrome and Mozilla Firefox have no more update support. I would rather use good old optimized software than something that will require me to spend like $1000000000000000 just because my $100000000 hardware is outdated by a few years.

You'd be correct in saying that HTML5 can be CPU intensive, and you'd probably be right in saying that often old software is more optimised than new software.

The reason a lot of websites are slow is that they don't really put that much effort into good performance, not that HTML5 is itself slow. In this case, the underlying engines for HTML5 and JS are actually really efficient, JS performance has actually gone up massively since it was created, at this point it pretty much outperforms any other interpreted language (including Flash), and in a lot of cases actually gets pretty close to or even beats compiled languages.

As for the browsers no longer supporting windows XP, this is because it's decades old and is almost universally no longer supported.

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#29 2019-08-18 17:56:03

PiotrGrochowski
Member
From: Poland (born in 8 №v 2004)
Joined: 2016-04-27
Posts: 926

Re: EE became smoother

Growler wrote:
PiotrGrochowski wrote:

HTML5 is very CPU intensive, it's even possible to use some extreme operations in it. Windows XP as an x86-optimized Win32-structured system does not allow such extreme operations that make the system slow like Windows 10 is, no wonder both Google Chrome and Mozilla Firefox have no more update support. I would rather use good old optimized software than something that will require me to spend like $1000000000000000 just because my $100000000 hardware is outdated by a few years.

Get a better computing teacher or do your research properly.

It's growler, the same man who doesn't fully appreciate digbots


I'm known as "haslo" in EE.

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#30 2019-08-18 18:12:28

Gosha
Member
From: Russia
Joined: 2015-03-15
Posts: 5,879

Re: EE became smoother

The fact that old software is supported with old hardware doesn't mean it's better than new software on new hardware.

Hey look, my 2d 8-bit color game runs with no lags at all on my windows 95!!! It must be better than minecraft because minecraft lags!

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#31 2019-08-18 18:31:42

PiotrGrochowski
Member
From: Poland (born in 8 №v 2004)
Joined: 2016-04-27
Posts: 926

Re: EE became smoother

Gosha wrote:

The fact that old software is supported with old hardware doesn't mean it's better than new software on new hardware.

Hey look, my 2d 8-bit color game runs with no lags at all on my windows 95!!! It must be better than minecraft because minecraft lags!

No one likes software that runs slow, especially Windows 10. And this is exactly what software optimization is. Of course the "2d 8-bit color game" (let's say, Super Mario Bros. on a fast NES emulator) is more optimized than some HTML5 adaptation of the Minecraft game.


I'm known as "haslo" in EE.

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#32 2019-08-18 18:59:45

Gosha
Member
From: Russia
Joined: 2015-03-15
Posts: 5,879

Re: EE became smoother

i am not sure what you are trying to prove here really.

should we switch development of eeu to NES emulator because it will ensure the game will run smoothly as possible?

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#33 2019-08-18 19:14:35

PiotrGrochowski
Member
From: Poland (born in 8 №v 2004)
Joined: 2016-04-27
Posts: 926

Re: EE became smoother

Gosha wrote:

i am not sure what you are trying to prove here really.

should we switch development of eeu to NES emulator because it will ensure the game will run smoothly as possible?

It's not like optimization is the only factor that goes towards a game's quality. But you shouldn't make EEU only run on the very latest gaming hardware that most people can't afford. You might think, aside from the Win32, Mac OS, Linux, Android and iOS versions, there could also be an NES port, a GBA port and an N64 port, as well as an SNES port and a GBC port, and last but not least, a DS port. But how would you connect to the Internet in this case? It's up to the developers to pick the best target(s) for EEU. Even within a single category (such as Win32), there can still be lots of variation. A well optimized Win32 application can run even on the outdated systems people have because they can't afford the recent hardware. But an overcomplicated Win32 application might as well only run on hardware from Uranus. You should make EEU as optimized as possible so that even the kids whose parents say there are people starving in Africa can play it, but not at the cost of core features such as internet connectivity and chat-chat talking. Don't remove too many features, but also don't make the game unplayable on anything but the very latest gaming hardware that most people can't afford.!


I'm known as "haslo" in EE.

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#34 2019-08-18 19:40:47

LukeM
Dev Team
From: England
Joined: 2016-06-03
Posts: 2,876
Website

Re: EE became smoother

PiotrGrochowski wrote:
Gosha wrote:

i am not sure what you are trying to prove here really.

should we switch development of eeu to NES emulator because it will ensure the game will run smoothly as possible?

It's not like optimization is the only factor that goes towards a game's quality. But you shouldn't make EEU only run on the very latest gaming hardware that most people can't afford. You might think, aside from the Win32, Mac OS, Linux, Android and iOS versions, there could also be an NES port, a GBA port and an N64 port, as well as an SNES port and a GBC port, and last but not least, a DS port. But how would you connect to the Internet in this case? It's up to the developers to pick the best target(s) for EEU. Even within a single category (such as Win32), there can still be lots of variation. A well optimized Win32 application can run even on the outdated systems people have because they can't afford the recent hardware. But an overcomplicated Win32 application might as well only run on hardware from Uranus. You should make EEU as optimized as possible so that even the kids whose parents say there are people starving in Africa can play it, but not at the cost of core features such as internet connectivity and chat-chat talking. Don't remove too many features, but also don't make the game unplayable on anything but the very latest gaming hardware that most people can't afford.!

We're most likely not going to be supporting anything that can't run an HTML5 app, as this would just be too much effort for relatively little gain.

This doesn't mean that you won't be able to play the game on old hardware though, the game currently runs at 60FPS on my £150 laptop and somewhere around 20FPS on my 7 year old phone, and we still plan to make further optimisations in the future. HTML5 really does perform pretty well in most situations, so I think you'd be able to play the game in most places where it would make sense to play the game.

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#35 2019-08-18 20:32:19, last edited by capasha (2019-08-18 21:17:15)

capasha
Member
Joined: 2015-02-21
Posts: 3,814

Re: EE became smoother

You must have the slowest hardware ever. If you can use Youtube then you can play EEU too.

PiotrGrochowski wrote:

HTML5 is very CPU intensive, it's even possible to use some extreme operations in it. Windows XP as an x86-optimized Win32-structured system does not allow such extreme operations that make the system slow like Windows 10 is, no wonder both Google Chrome and Mozilla Firefox have no more update support. I would rather use good old optimized software than something that will require me to spend like $1000000000000000 just because my $100000000 hardware is outdated by a few years.

You can get good hardware for just $1000. And that hardware will be good in some years.
Sometimes if you buy hardware that can be changed you even earn money for just changing hardware.

Now I'm talking about a desktop. Some laptops doesn't even have parts you can change to better. The reason a desktop is better.

I have seen that you still use Windows XP. Because of your theme. You should really change OS. Windows XP doesn't get updates anymore and is insecure.
I would suggest Windows 7. If you like Windows XP I would suggest to really change to Windows 7. Those of my experiences is the best OS ever.

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#36 2019-08-18 20:32:34

mrjawapa
Member
From: Ohio, USA
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 5,163
Website

Re: EE became smoother

Who here games on a win95 computer? Probably just diff?


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#37 2019-08-18 20:34:16

capasha
Member
Joined: 2015-02-21
Posts: 3,814

Re: EE became smoother

mrjawapa wrote:

Who here games on a win95 computer? Probably just diff?

I use a Virtual Machine. So I can play all optimized games in Windows 95.

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#38 2019-08-19 05:08:14, last edited by PiotrGrochowski (2019-08-19 05:25:23)

PiotrGrochowski
Member
From: Poland (born in 8 №v 2004)
Joined: 2016-04-27
Posts: 926

Re: EE became smoother

capasha wrote:

You must have the slowest hardware ever. If you can use Youtube then you can play EEU too.

PiotrGrochowski wrote:

HTML5 is very CPU intensive, it's even possible to use some extreme operations in it. Windows XP as an x86-optimized Win32-structured system does not allow such extreme operations that make the system slow like Windows 10 is, no wonder both Google Chrome and Mozilla Firefox have no more update support. I would rather use good old optimized software than something that will require me to spend like $1000000000000000 just because my $100000000 hardware is outdated by a few years.

You can get good hardware for just $1000. And that hardware will be good in some years.
Sometimes if you buy hardware that can be changed you even earn money for just changing hardware.

Now I'm talking about a desktop. Some laptops doesn't even have parts you can change to better. The reason a desktop is better.

I have seen that you still use Windows XP. Because of your theme. You should really change OS. Windows XP doesn't get updates anymore and is insecure.
I would suggest Windows 7. If you like Windows XP I would suggest to really change to Windows 7. Those of my experiences is the best OS ever.

I actually use Windows 10. Believe me, the High Contrast theme option is still available in Windows 10. And the colors of the theme can be adjusted by editting the theme file in Notepad, which also still exists in Windows 10. And I hate Windows 10 due to how slow it is.

I remember someone who wasn't grateful for the Firefox ESR 52.4.1 (32-bit) I had. I refuse to upgrade Firefox and I completely refuse to use Chrome on my PC (except for VMs) for performance. I can't afford powerful enough hardware  to run that. If HTML5 EEU requires a browser version released last minute, and the Microsoft Windows port would crash my PC, then I don't know what you're trying to do!


I'm known as "haslo" in EE.

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#39 2019-08-19 09:08:25

LukeM
Dev Team
From: England
Joined: 2016-06-03
Posts: 2,876
Website

Re: EE became smoother

PiotrGrochowski wrote:

I actually use Windows 10. Believe me, the High Contrast theme option is still available in Windows 10. And the colors of the theme can be adjusted by editting the theme file in Notepad, which also still exists in Windows 10. And I hate Windows 10 due to how slow it is.

I remember someone who wasn't grateful for the Firefox ESR 52.4.1 (32-bit) I had. I refuse to upgrade Firefox and I completely refuse to use Chrome on my PC (except for VMs) for performance. I can't afford powerful enough hardware  to run that. If HTML5 EEU requires a browser version released last minute, and the Microsoft Windows port would crash my PC, then I don't know what you're trying to do!

I would really suggest at least trying out the new versions of Firefox, they really do run significantly faster than the older versions.

That said, you will most likely still be able to run EEU on an older version of Firefox, it'll just run a bit slower than it would on newer versions.

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#40 2019-08-19 10:04:24, last edited by PiotrGrochowski (2019-08-19 10:06:53)

PiotrGrochowski
Member
From: Poland (born in 8 №v 2004)
Joined: 2016-04-27
Posts: 926

Re: EE became smoother

LukeM wrote:
PiotrGrochowski wrote:

I actually use Windows 10. Believe me, the High Contrast theme option is still available in Windows 10. And the colors of the theme can be adjusted by editting the theme file in Notepad, which also still exists in Windows 10. And I hate Windows 10 due to how slow it is.

I remember someone who wasn't grateful for the Firefox ESR 52.4.1 (32-bit) I had. I refuse to upgrade Firefox and I completely refuse to use Chrome on my PC (except for VMs) for performance. I can't afford powerful enough hardware  to run that. If HTML5 EEU requires a browser version released last minute, and the Microsoft Windows port would crash my PC, then I don't know what you're trying to do!

I would really suggest at least trying out the new versions of Firefox, they really do run significantly faster than the older versions.

That said, you will most likely still be able to run EEU on an older version of Firefox, it'll just run a bit slower than it would on newer versions.

I remember using a recent version. That was very cursed. In the "About" screen, the word "Quantum" appeared next to "Firefox", as if I got a virus or something. Furthermore, when I install an older version it would almost immediately update after a single use. So I'm staying with Firefox ESR 52.4.1 (32-bit) with updates permanently disabled. And I wouldn't like to run EEU on Firefox anyway, I would like to run a Microsoft Windows port of EEU if possible. The Microsoft Windows port should use actual, native x86 code, such as the GDI text renderer.


I'm known as "haslo" in EE.

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#41 2019-08-19 11:30:57

capasha
Member
Joined: 2015-02-21
Posts: 3,814

Re: EE became smoother

PiotrGrochowski wrote:

I remember someone who wasn't grateful for the Firefox ESR 52.4.1 (32-bit) I had. I refuse to upgrade Firefox

If I was you I would update Firefox. Just look at all these exploits. https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerabilit … 2.4.1.html
Not even an Anti-Virus could stop the exploits. That's the reason people update to newest Firefox version.

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#42 2019-08-19 11:57:19

PiotrGrochowski
Member
From: Poland (born in 8 №v 2004)
Joined: 2016-04-27
Posts: 926

Re: EE became smoother

capasha wrote:
PiotrGrochowski wrote:

I remember someone who wasn't grateful for the Firefox ESR 52.4.1 (32-bit) I had. I refuse to upgrade Firefox

If I was you I would update Firefox. Just look at all these exploits. https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerabilit … 2.4.1.html
Not even an Anti-Virus could stop the exploits. That's the reason people update to newest Firefox version.

Don't expect everyone to live the same lifestyle.


I'm known as "haslo" in EE.

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#43 2019-08-19 12:04:01

Raphe9000
Member
Joined: 2015-03-16
Posts: 1,603

Re: EE became smoother

PiotrGrochowski wrote:

Don't expect everyone to live the same lifestyle.

I understand a change like that may seem kinda drastic to you, but why don't you just check it out? You may end up liking it, and it will certainly benefit you in the security department.


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#44 2019-08-19 12:04:45

capasha
Member
Joined: 2015-02-21
Posts: 3,814

Re: EE became smoother

PiotrGrochowski wrote:
capasha wrote:
PiotrGrochowski wrote:

I remember someone who wasn't grateful for the Firefox ESR 52.4.1 (32-bit) I had. I refuse to upgrade Firefox

If I was you I would update Firefox. Just look at all these exploits. https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerabilit … 2.4.1.html
Not even an Anti-Virus could stop the exploits. That's the reason people update to newest Firefox version.

Don't expect everyone to live the same lifestyle.

Maybe you should change lifestyle. Because you just need to go to a site and it downloads automatic and execute because of sandbox escape. NoScript doesn't help you.

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#45 2019-08-19 12:20:56

PiotrGrochowski
Member
From: Poland (born in 8 №v 2004)
Joined: 2016-04-27
Posts: 926

Re: EE became smoother

capasha wrote:

Maybe you should change lifestyle.

Is saying things like that even legal?!


I'm known as "haslo" in EE.

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#46 2019-08-19 12:26:57

capasha
Member
Joined: 2015-02-21
Posts: 3,814

Re: EE became smoother

PiotrGrochowski wrote:
capasha wrote:

Maybe you should change lifestyle.

Is saying things like that even legal?!

Why wont it? You seem like you are stuck when it comes to your own security. The reason I wrote like I wrote.

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#47 2019-08-19 16:20:21

TundrumMax
Formerly Memomemo
Joined: 2017-10-26
Posts: 324

Re: EE became smoother

PiotrGrochowski wrote:

I can't afford powerful enough hardware  to run that.

Bruh I got my computer for literally only £50 and it's apparently faster than everyone else's computer. So wtf are you even talking about?


Heck

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#48 2019-08-19 18:33:52

Tomahawk
Forum Mod
From: BiH
Joined: 2015-02-18
Posts: 2,180

Re: EE became smoother

Let's discuss lifestyle choices somewhere else.

Stay on topic pls.


One bot to rule them all, one bot to find them. One bot to bring them all... and with this cliché blind them.

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#49 2019-08-19 19:03:47

mrjawapa
Member
From: Ohio, USA
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 5,163
Website

Re: EE became smoother

This topic only proves that some of y'alls brains got smoother


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#50 2019-08-19 19:23:56, last edited by LukeM (2019-08-19 19:25:37)

LukeM
Dev Team
From: England
Joined: 2016-06-03
Posts: 2,876
Website

Re: EE became smoother

PiotrGrochowski wrote:
LukeM wrote:

I remember using a recent version. That was very cursed. In the "About" screen, the word "Quantum" appeared next to "Firefox", as if I got a virus or something. Furthermore, when I install an older version it would almost immediately update after a single use. So I'm staying with Firefox ESR 52.4.1 (32-bit) with updates permanently disabled. And I wouldn't like to run EEU on Firefox anyway, I would like to run a Microsoft Windows port of EEU if possible. The Microsoft Windows port should use actual, native x86 code, such as the GDI text renderer.

To clarify the quantum thing, this isn't a virus or anything, Firefox Quantum is the name of a rehaul of Firefox which massively optimised the rendering and JavaScript engines, and made it run a lot better on low end devices.

As for native EEU, we'll probably be packaging it as a PWA, which is a fairly new standard that allows you to 'install' HTML5 apps so that you can use them as if they are a normal executable program. Similar to the current exe version of the game, under the hood it would just be running in an instance of your browser of choice, so I wouldn't expect there to be any performance improvements (although similar to the current exe, there could be some unexpected side effects of this that make it run smoother or whatever), so it's mostly just down to personal preference of which you prefer to use.

Sorry if this isn't what you'd prefer, but if did want to have an actual native x86 or whatever version of the game we'd basically have to start again from scratch in a language like c++, which would likely end up doubling the development time we'd need to put into it for relatively little gain, possibly even more as c++ isn't really suited to web games like EE.

The big advantage of HTML5 is that it's designed to be portable, similar to Flash but generally better, so we can just write one version of the code and package it up to run pretty much anywhere, which saves us a lot of time and allows us to work on more important things like actual content updates.

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