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#526 2019-07-27 13:30:25

Onjit
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Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 8,374
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Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

I was having trouble figuring out how I wanted to start this post but this is a good enough prompt that I may as well just respond to this (basically how I was intending on posting anyway but w/ more structure? idk)

mutantdevle wrote:

So what you are saying is that you've been purposely scummy this entire time?

If so then I expect at least 2 of the following from you:
- An explanation of the motivations behind why
- A hidden message in one of your ****
- Genuine reads and analysis of the players in the game

In this game, it was my opinion that the town was at a significant disadvantage to the mafia, as the mafia are 5-strong, and share a PT so they could (theoretically) coordinate, while we as town had no solid way of gaining solid evidence (no power roles etc). Also, I inadvertently found myself on the wrong side of two wagons on Hell-1 (Going after Kirby for inactivity, and being asleep while the consensus flipped to Zoey).
Between the traditional Day 1 **** and my bad luck, it seemed clear enough to me that I was already on the suspect list of many, (and with no real desire to try to win back the favour of people in a game where survivor bias means that any attempt to seem town is often regarded as a scummy move once people already suspect you) I decided to lean into it - to play more poorly to try to see who would inevitably agree with my posts regardless of their dubious merit (I mentioned it here but I think people assumed that I was **** or just forgot)

That's my general reasoning as to why - I'll post what I think I actually found out in a moment


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#527 2019-07-27 13:33:31

NorwegianboyEE
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From: Norway
Joined: 2015-03-16
Posts: 2,424

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

I’m not sure i’m buying the "i was acting scummy on purpose!" argument. It seems more like a really bad excuse for a mafia about to be lynched. If it really is true that Onjit is a townie and intentionally acted scummy. How would that help the town? In reality, Onjit is just making it harder for townies to find mafia, since it would be completely natural for townies to expose and vote for people that display suspicious behaviour. Maybe he tried to "attract" mafia, by seeing who would vote for him, and using that information to lynch them. A sort of "honeypot" trap if you will. But that doesn’t work, since inevitably a lot of townies would vote for him, and indeed feel justified in doing so. Honestly, i’m starting to feel more and more sure about my vote the more i’m thinking about this.

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#528 2019-07-27 13:33:57

Onjit
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Joined: 2015-02-15
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Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

These kinds of shenanigans shouldn't come as much of a surprise btw - Proc pulled a similar stunt last game, and I've pulled underhanded crap in benefit of town in previous games as well


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#529 2019-07-27 13:54:23

Onjit
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Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

I'd also like to hear from someone that isn't one of [Proc, Crybaby, Norboy, Devlin]

Apparently there's 11 people left in this game??


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#530 2019-07-27 13:58:50

NorwegianboyEE
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From: Norway
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Posts: 2,424

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

They’re scared Mutant will textually assault them.

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#531 2019-07-27 14:13:09

mutantdevle
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From: Hell
Joined: 2015-03-31
Posts: 3,281
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Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

Processor wrote:

You asked why I used the word "back" the second time I said you were sus. I gave you an honest and logical explanation.
I'm not sure what you're archiving here by criticising one of the words I used.

Your explanation isn't logical though because it doesn't fit the description of putting me 'back' in your suspicion list. Your word choice matters because using different words is a standard part of persuasion. You come across as dishonest when you use words that don't apply to the situation you are describing.

Processor wrote:

nervousness
What I mean by that is... (applies to Mutantdevle and Crybaby)
a) you're super defensive
b) you're self centered, you only talk about defending yourself
c) you start criticizing little things like individual words, our of context
c) you ignore other suspects

Being defensive is not a bad thing. Do you honestly expect people to not react when you just call them scum? I'm not by any means 'super' defensive. I'm responding to your every point of criticism towards me. If I was being super defensive I'd be finding criticism where there is none <-- That's something worth being suspicious of.

I'm not self-centred. I've defended myself, I've defended crybaby, I've defended Zelda, and I've criticised Onjit. Whilst doing all of that I've also been trying to gauge a read on you.

Like I said, your word choice matters. Especially since many of the words you've used have come across as manipulative ways of painting a situation. I'm not pointing that out to you out of nervousness, I'm doing it to give you the chance to reflect on your word choice.

I'm not ignoring other suspects. If you mean I'm ignoring the possibility that Zelda is mafia, well you haven't given me any reasons to think they are yet. On the other hand, I know what I've seen in their posts that makes me think they are town. I'm also waiting for Onjit to respond to me and I'm currently trying to figure out whether I genuinely believe you are mafia. It's not practical to start questioning all of my suspects at once. Further to that, my case against other suspects that I'm yet to mention does rely on me figuring out both you and Onjit first.


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#532 2019-07-27 14:23:26

mutantdevle
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From: Hell
Joined: 2015-03-31
Posts: 3,281
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Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

Crybaby

Kira

NorwegianboyEE

ZeldaXD

2B55B5GTNG

TaskManager

Slabdrill

Caleb101

Processor

Onjit


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#533 2019-07-27 14:27:39

mutantdevle
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From: Hell
Joined: 2015-03-31
Posts: 3,281
Website

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

I just re-read some stuff from TaskManager's iso and I think he should be placed above 2B55 in that list, possibly even higher than Zelda tbh.


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#534 2019-07-27 14:43:15

Processor
Member
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

NorwegianboyEE wrote:

@Processor
So now you think Onjit is scum, but we shouldn’t lynch him??

There are better options than Onjit.

mutantdevle wrote:

Like I said, your word choice matters. Especially since many of the words you've used have come across as manipulative ways of painting a situation. I'm not pointing that out to you out of nervousness, I'm doing it to give you the chance to reflect on your word choice.

After the last mislynch, I put you on sus list, then on mafiaish list, then on sus again.
I understand you were confused but you still have to make a case on why it's misleading... (misleading does not equal confusing)

From my perspective, you're just nitpicking.

---

The nervousness statement was made before you did what you are doing. It was my initial impression and I called you out on it.

---

Any reason you've put me down there next to Onjit, besides me "protecting" them?


I have never thought of programming for reputation and honor. What I have in my heart must come out. That is the reason why I code.

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#535 2019-07-27 14:55:51

TaskManager
Formerly maxi123
From: i really should update this
Joined: 2015-03-01
Posts: 8,470

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

Processor wrote:

@everyone: take a look at ZeldaXD and see if you can get behind lynching him.

Not at this moment, no
Zelda's posts are townish, he doesn't post much but it's contributive
Meanwhile, you've never provided a single argument to lynching Zelda since I asked you the same thing yesterday
So I'll remind you that you have yet to do that
Wtf?

Onjit wrote:

I've pulled underhanded crap in benefit of town in previous games as well

The underhanded crap that you linked here is you sacrificing yourself for the sake of Town gaining information
This case is slightly different imo

Onjit wrote:

I'll post what I think I actually found out in a moment

Waiting for this


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#536 2019-07-27 14:58:25

Processor
Member
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

Mutant has a huge presence in here via his walls of text.
That only shows he has a lot of time on his hands.
And some motivation to silence me and actively push against my pressure on ZeldaXD.

Given the recent posts, I am upgrading Crybaby back to town.

Town:
Crybaby
Kira
NorwegianboyEE

Townish:
Slabdrill
2B55B5G TNG

Sus:
TaskManager
Caleb101
Onjit

Mafiaish:
Mutantdevle
ZeldaXD


I have never thought of programming for reputation and honor. What I have in my heart must come out. That is the reason why I code.

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#537 2019-07-27 15:15:10

mutantdevle
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From: Hell
Joined: 2015-03-31
Posts: 3,281
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Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

Processor wrote:

After the last mislynch, I put you on sus list, then on mafiaish list, then on sus again.
I understand you were confused but you still have to make a case on why it's misleading... (misleading does not equal confusing)

Well, I've only just understood the difference with this post. I revoke my statement.

Processor wrote:

Any reason you've put me down there next to Onjit, besides me "protecting" them?

I want your alignment figured out after Onjit's (not necessarily through having either of y'all leave purgatory). I feel like that if you didn't scum read me first I'd be properly scum reading you right now but I'm currently trying to figure out whether I'm reading your actions as scummy through confirmation bias, just because we're clashing, or because my feelings on you are genuine.

Processor wrote:

And some motivation to silence me and actively push against my pressure on ZeldaXD.

Silence you? No. I'm not pushing for you to be sent to hell nor have I ever told you or done anything to make you stop posting. I don't know where you're getting that from. But yes, I'm going to push against your pressure on Zelda because I think that you're wrong. You've yet to provide any reasons why Zelda is scummy. And I have enough reason to think that Zelda is town to provide a whole wall of text on it.


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#538 2019-07-27 15:17:41

Processor
Member
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

Onjit's stubbornness is anti-town, but also anti-mafia. It doesn't indicate anything...

Mutant you make a good point about how it could have just been a miscommunication issue between mafia members.
However, Jawapa was online at the time this all happened. So he chose to not vote on himself.

It was rational for mrjawapa to wait until someone hammered on him and then frame them as the bad guy, if I was in his place, I would have done exactly the same.
I find it hard to believe a scum Onjit would hammer Jawapa. Mafia could wait until someone semi suspicious hammers on Jawapa, causing a potential mislynch in the next phase.

Onjit not voting for Jawapa would make Onjit seem rather town. Why did mafia not do this?
The alternative you're suggesting is an unnecessary risky move, super complicated, and therefore unlikely.

I find ZeldaXD suspicious because he instantly fell in this "trap" set by mrjawapa, before mentioning or analyzing the interaction between the two.
I find mutantdevle suspicious because he instantly fell in this "trap" set by mrjawapa. In his analysis, he did not once mention the other alternative.

Too many people are too focused on lynching Onjit. I do not like this, I do not get a good feeling of this.
The same way I did not get a good feeling when mrjawapa gained so many posts so fast.
Last heaven phase Mutant convinced me that my gut feeling was wrong, but it wasn't...

So pardon me but I will take everything you say with a grain of salt.


I have never thought of programming for reputation and honor. What I have in my heart must come out. That is the reason why I code.

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#539 2019-07-27 15:48:42

mutantdevle
Member
From: Hell
Joined: 2015-03-31
Posts: 3,281
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Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

Processor wrote:

However, Jawapa was online at the time this all happened. So he chose to not vote on himself.

I've been online the entire time we've been posting back and forth. I started writing this reply a full 7 minutes after you posted this comment. Why? Because I'm doing something else whilst I wait for you to reply. 2 minutes between the L-1 vote and the hammer is easily enough time for jawapa to miss his opportunity to self hammer. I don't believe for a second that jawapa was set here refreshing the page every 30 seconds. Whilst waiting for the L-1 he would have been doing something.

Processor wrote:

Onjit not voting for Jawapa would make Onjit seem rather town. Why did mafia not do this?
The alternative you're suggesting is an unnecessary risky move, super complicated, and therefore unlikely.

Personally, I'd still have made a case against Onjit even without that hammer vote. But yes, he is more suspicious to others because of that vote. However, I think you're overestimating how risky the hammer vote would have looked pre-flip. Why would Onjit take the **** for putting a mafia member into heaven? After all, it was me who first suggested jawapa. The only reason he is in this mess is because his hammer vote prompted people to vocalise that they's have a passive scum read of Onjit the entire game. Prior to that, no one had really vocalised anything against Onjit. It's entirely plausible that as scum he'd feel comfortable making the hammer vote.

Processor wrote:

I find ZeldaXD suspicious because he instantly fell in this "trap" set by mrjawapa,

Is this your only reason you find them suspicious? lol.

Processor wrote:

I find mutantdevle suspicious because he instantly fell in this "trap" set by mrjawapa. In his analysis, he did not once mention the other alternative.

The alternative that jawapa is framing Onjit? I didn't mention that because it has nothing to do with 90% of my case on Onjit. All most all of the issues I have with him came before he voted. His vote is just more evidence.

Processor wrote:

Too many people are too focused on lynching Onjit. I do not like this, I do not get a good feeling of this.
The same way I did not get a good feeling when mrjawapa gained so many posts so fast.

The case with Onjit is nothing like with Jawapa. The votes are nowhere near as quick and we're waiting for Onjit to have his say. We're using this time to explore the idea that Onjit is a candidate for hell because we have not truly explored him before. The reason you don't like it from what I've seen is simply because people aren't listening to you. Why? Because your cases are not compelling. You've given us no reason to trust you or your read on Zelda other than just "mutant was wrong so listen to me now!".

Processor wrote:

Last heaven phase Mutant convinced me that my gut feeling was wrong, but it wasn't...

What did I say to convince you?

This was our interaction:

Hidden text

I gave you essentially no new information whatsoever. So quite clearly you didn't need much convincing. The reason you gave for voting had nothing to do with anything I had said.


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#540 2019-07-27 16:03:15

Processor
Member
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

mutantdevle wrote:

The alternative that jawapa is framing Onjit? I didn't mention that because it has nothing to do with 90% of my case on Onjit. All most all of the issues I have with him came before he voted. His vote is just more evidence.

so your "analysis" was biased and you intentionally left out anything that contradicted your pre-occupied opinion

mutantdevle wrote:

What did I say to convince you?

https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 31#p756331

mutantdevle wrote:

Is this your only reason you find them suspicious? lol.

ZeldaXD has been very helpful in heaven phase and very not helpful in hell phase.
ZeldaXD is using the heaven phase to build up a reputation for himself.
However, there is this asymmetry between how helpful he is in heaven vs hell.

On a similar note: has he explained why he thinks Kira is scum?

Just like town wants to play it safe in heaven phase and take risks in hell phase, the opposite applies to mafia.
They'll want to play it safe in hell phase and take risks in heaven phase.
Zelda is playing it safe in hell phase by not participating... hmm...


I have never thought of programming for reputation and honor. What I have in my heart must come out. That is the reason why I code.

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#541 2019-07-27 16:06:43

Processor
Member
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

mutantdevle wrote:

The case with Onjit is nothing like with Jawapa. The votes are nowhere near as quick and we're waiting for Onjit to have his say. We're using this time to explore the idea that Onjit is a candidate for hell because we have not truly explored him before. The reason you don't like it from what I've seen is simply because people aren't listening to you. Why? Because your cases are not compelling. You've given us no reason to trust you or your read on Zelda other than just "mutant was wrong so listen to me now!".

I didn't say it was the exact situation. I said I get a similar feeling based on Zelda's, Crybaby's and Mutantdevle's reads on Onjit

Why are you misinterpreting everything you can?
Stop nitpicking.


I have never thought of programming for reputation and honor. What I have in my heart must come out. That is the reason why I code.

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#542 2019-07-27 16:49:02

Slabdrill
Formerly 12345678908642
From: canada
Joined: 2015-08-15
Posts: 3,358
Website

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

!vote onjit

give explanation already. will unvote when you do.

also that was more than 22h of absence, oops


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#543 2019-07-27 16:53:07

Slabdrill
Formerly 12345678908642
From: canada
Joined: 2015-08-15
Posts: 3,358
Website

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

Also by "explanation" i mean when you said "I'll post what I think I actually found out in a moment"

On another note, proc is looking somewhat sus because he's treating people like they're scum after a single anti-town mistake and that just makes everyone be considered scum


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#544 2019-07-27 17:03:42

mutantdevle
Member
From: Hell
Joined: 2015-03-31
Posts: 3,281
Website

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

Processor wrote:

so your "analysis" was biased and you intentionally left out anything that contradicted your pre-occupied opinion

If by 'analysis' you mean of Onjit's vote, then yes. The rest of the case did not have any bias - in fact, I barely mentioned his recent vote in my case. The vote doesn't make me reconsider everything that is stacked against him. Because of how scummy he has been throughout the game I'm obviously going to see the scenario where he voted as being scummy as more likely. The rest of the things he's done makes it more likely. Like sure, you can say that jawapa manipulated the situation to frame whoever placed the hammer vote - but Onjit certainly wasn't being framed when he made all his other scummy posts that you've neglected to talk about.

Processor wrote:
mutantdevle wrote:

What did I say to convince you?

https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 31#p756331

You literally made this post telling me why you didn't believe that. Are you telling me that you later changed your mind? Because that's not the impression I got when you talked about the post recently.

Processor wrote:

ZeldaXD has been very helpful in heaven phase and very not helpful in hell phase.
ZeldaXD is using the heaven phase to build up a reputation for himself.
However, there is this asymmetry between how helpful he is in heaven vs hell.

[...]

Just like town wants to play it safe in heaven phase and take risks in hell phase, the opposite applies to mafia.
They'll want to play it safe in hell phase and take risks in heaven phase.
Zelda is playing it safe in hell phase by not participating... hmm...

Why does being helpful in one phase and not helpful in another make them mafia? What makes you rule out that they're just better at finding townies than they are mafia? How do you know their intention is to just build up a reputation for themself and why would they do that?

I sort of understand your explanation. But no, that's just not how it works. Mafia want to look like town so they'll naturally aim to do what the town would do. Besides, nobody in this game is playing it as binary as "I'll take risks in this phase and be safe in this other one". You'd just have to look at how the game has gone so far to see that. Zoey was a safe bet for the first hell phase. Kirby was then also a safe bet for the heaven. Then trytu was another safe bet for the hell phase whilst Jawapa was a risky heaven one.

Also, I disagree that Zelda is only helping in the heaven phase. They didn't really contribute anything in the first or current hell phase, but they were present for the 2nd one (as well as both previous heaven phases). That's not a trend of helping in heaven and not in hell, that's a trend of starting off not very active, becoming a little more active for most of the game, and then only recently becoming more inactive. 

Processor wrote:

On a similar note: has he explained why he thinks Kira is scum?

Yes. This makes me think that you didn't check if your statement about Zelda being active in heaven but not hell was true.


Processor wrote:

I didn't say it was the exact situation. I said I get a similar feeling based on Zelda's, Crybaby's and Mutantdevle's reads on Onjit

Why are you misinterpreting everything you can?
Stop nitpicking.

My point is that you can't just demand people listen to just because you have a similar feeling. The situation is not the same so the outcome isn't magically going to be the same.

And I'm not nitpicking. When your arguments are illogical I'm going to point that out.


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#545 2019-07-27 17:10:41

mutantdevle
Member
From: Hell
Joined: 2015-03-31
Posts: 3,281
Website

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

To be honest, all I need from Onjit to make me trust him is to prove to me that he has been analysing people and actively tried to figure out their alignments whilst also showing me in some way that he's competently game solving. His explanation that he's been purposely scummy the whole time actually makes sense and counters almost all of my points against him. A lot of what he's said from reading his iso does indeed seem like it comes from someone intentionally being scummy. Furthermore, from sharing a PT with Onjit in the previous game and scheming with him in a towny way, I know he's capable of doing this as town. The problem is that it also means he's capable of doing it as mafia. Like, perhaps this is a strategy scum!Onjit has to fool us into thinking he's actually town. The only way he can prove one over the other is by showing me a genuine formation of reads and need to game solve. That means simple single sentences about why someone is town isn't going to cut it. I expect proper somewhat detailed analysis of what he thinks of everyone and why he feels that way.

If I do conclude that Onjit is town then I intend to vote for Processor.


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#546 2019-07-27 17:14:21

Processor
Member
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

mutantdevle wrote:

You literally made this post telling me why you didn't believe that. Are you telling me that you later changed your mind? Because that's not the impression I got when you talked about the post recently.

Yes, I literally made a post afterwards telling you I later changed my mind: https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 50#p756350
As explanation for it I state that I trusted you guys because I had a town read on most of the voters.

mutantdevle wrote:

Yes. This makes me think that you didn't check if your statement about Zelda being active in heaven but not hell was true.

So suspicion by association?
Even though its pretty weak.

mutantdevle wrote:

My point is that you can't just demand people listen to just because you have a similar feeling. The situation is not the same so the outcome isn't magically going to be the same.

Well then let me omit the second sentence.

Too many people are too focused on lynching Onjit. I do not like this, I do not get a good feeling of this.

mutantdevle wrote:

Also, I disagree that Zelda is only helping in the heaven phase. They didn't really contribute anything in the first or current hell phase, but they were present for the 2nd one (as well as both previous heaven phases). That's not a trend of helping in heaven and not in hell, that's a trend of starting off not very active, becoming a little more active for most of the game, and then only recently becoming more inactive. 

Let me rephrase.
I only get a "town" feeling from ZeldaXD if I look at their heaven phase posts.
I do not get a "town" feeling from ZeldaXD if I look at their hell phase posts.

I am open to lynching either of Mutantdevle or ZeldaXD, but not open to lynching Onjit.


I have never thought of programming for reputation and honor. What I have in my heart must come out. That is the reason why I code.

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#547 2019-07-27 17:15:55

Processor
Member
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

mutantdevle wrote:

If I do conclude that Onjit is town then I intend to vote for Processor.

All I've been doing is to convince you that Onjit is not worth lynching and if I succeed, you're going to vote for me?

smh


I have never thought of programming for reputation and honor. What I have in my heart must come out. That is the reason why I code.

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#548 2019-07-27 17:17:15

Slabdrill
Formerly 12345678908642
From: canada
Joined: 2015-08-15
Posts: 3,358
Website

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

I only voted for onjit to pressure them into posting faster even though as of right now it's the middle of the night in austrailia.

I still strongly town-read mutantdevle (his argument's stronger than yours in this argument) which is a large factor into why I find you more scummy than I did when I posted my initial impressions.


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#549 2019-07-27 17:20:22

Processor
Member
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

Slabdrill wrote:

his argument's stronger than yours in this argument

Which argument are you talking about?
Can you put it in your own words please?


I have never thought of programming for reputation and honor. What I have in my heart must come out. That is the reason why I code.

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#550 2019-07-27 17:32:56

Slabdrill
Formerly 12345678908642
From: canada
Joined: 2015-08-15
Posts: 3,358
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Re: Mafia 27: PurgatorEE [GAME OVER!]

Processor wrote:
Slabdrill wrote:

his argument's stronger than yours in this argument

Which argument are you talking about?
Can you put it in your own words please?

You're trying to push zelda as scum and onjit as town, and I disagree with zelda being scum because I haven't seen any evidence of it (and they still read town to me). Activity in hell/heaven phases doesn't matter too much because that can be dependant on schedule and what there is to talk about. I too usually talk a bit more when trying to defend myself. (Onjit being town is still an unsure thing, but I think they should be considered mafia due to behaviour until shown otherwise. It's kinda their fault for not participating, and caleb is being treated as scummy for the same reason)


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