Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

Xfrogman43 · 2018-06-03 20:27:41

Anak wrote:

it's been shown that brain activity in transgender people often reflects the gender they're transitioning to rather than the one they were assigned at birth.

well obviously? they want to be the other gender so why would their brain activity mean anything? it just shows that if you think you are something for a long time your brain accepts it

Abelysk · 2018-06-03 21:59:21

ninjasupeatsninja wrote:

TL;DR
Anybody who is LGBT/intersex is a deviation from the norm.
I shouldn't have to pamper to anybody who is LGBT/intersex
Discrimination, victimization, harassment, bullying, physical or sexual abuse, being disrespected, and homelessness are problems that everybody faces, and it isn't limited to transgender people.
People who identify as neither should choose the gender they were born with, or look like the gender they want to be called.

• LGBTQ+ members are oppressed a lot more often than the norm. They need support.

• Universal law proposals are almost guaranteed to fail in efficiency (Universal Basic Income for example is ridiculously optimistic) so making laws to support all minorities is make-believe

• You're confusing gender with sex (gender is not biological)

• Gender dysphoria is the mental sensation that the gender/sex people identify you as is the opposite of what you want to be (e.g. your biggest wish is to be the opposite gender/sex).

SirJosh3917 · 2018-06-03 22:13:47

Abelysk wrote:

• LGBTQ+ members are oppressed a lot more often than the norm. They need support.

ninjasupeatsninja wrote:

Discrimination, victimization, harassment, bullying, physical or sexual abuse, being disrespected, and homelessness are problems that everybody faces, and it isn't limited to transgender people.

_

Abelysk wrote:

• Universal law proposals are almost guaranteed to fail in efficiency (Universal Basic Income for example is ridiculously optimistic) so making laws to support all minorities is make-believe

Pamper, i.e. having to give extra/special care/attention to. Not sure which point you're trying to reply to.

_

Abelysk wrote:

• You're confusing gender with sex (gender is not biological)

Ah, my bad.

_

Abelysk wrote:

• Gender dysphoria is the mental sensation that the gender/sex people identify you as is the opposite of what you want to be (e.g. your biggest wish is to be the opposite gender/sex).

ninjasupeatsninja wrote:

I say that if you are an intersex person and you don't classify as either, you should classify as the gender opposite to whatever gender you feel an attraction to the most, or just look like the gender you want to be classified as.

TaskManager · 2018-06-03 22:23:56

damn ninja derailed this thread even better gg

edit: oh i found a picture to support pride month

▼CONTENT WARNING

Anak · 2018-06-03 22:44:50

Yeah I'm not about to debate with someone who's calling me a mistake. Either there's mutual respect or there's no conversation.

Zoey2070, mutantdevle, mrjawapa, RavaTroll

Schlog · 2018-06-03 22:48:36

jesus **** someone needs to lock this already

SirJosh3917 · 2018-06-03 22:49:34

Anak wrote:

Yeah I'm not about to debate with someone who's calling me a mistake.

Aren't we all mistakes to some degree? Nobody's perfect, and we all have our flaws.

If I'm not showing you the mutual respect you'd like, please do correct me. I'm sorry you feel that way.

Anak · 2018-06-03 22:58:45

ninjasupeatsninja wrote:

Anak wrote:
Yeah I'm not about to debate with someone who's calling me a mistake.
Aren't we all mistakes to some degree? Nobody's perfect, and we all have our flaws.
If I'm not showing you the mutual respect you'd like, please do correct me. I'm sorry you feel that way.

See, you're sorry I feel as though you've wronged me, but you're not actually sorry that you have.
I know you're just baiting though, and trying to clean up your act to appear as if what you're saying actually has merit and that your lack of value for queer people as human beings is something that's worthy of being an equally opposable argument. I know better than to keep you talking.
My identity as a queer person is not some kind of flaw, mistake, or abnormality. Take it to mean I can't shed my personality in favour of unbiased position in a debate, if you like, but this will be my last post in this thread.

Zoey2070, Onjit, Norwee, mutantdevle, RavaTroll

Bimps · 2018-06-03 23:02:01

he's not baiting you. stop trying to be attacked by everything

SirJosh3917, Schlog, Luka504

TaskManager · 2018-06-03 23:05:00

Schlog wrote:

jesus **** someone needs to lock this already

attempts have been made to do that

Norwee · 2018-06-04 01:31:06

Bimps wrote:

he's not baiting you. stop trying to be attacked by everything

I disagree with this point, it’s not an overreaction by Anak. It is rather insulting to say "i’m sorry you feel that way".
Ninjasupeatsninja sounds like he’s expressing sympathy for Anak’s emotional state, while at the same time not admitting fault for putting Anak there. If it was to sound more sincere, it should have been worded differently, for example: “I’m sorry for how I made you feel.” Instead Ninja might as well have said, “I can say whatever I want and it’s not my problem if you take it personally.”
As it stands now, the apology doesn’t actually admit any wrongdoing. It’s just a deflection of fault and absolving oneself of all personal responsibility.
I don’t know if Anak did this intentionally, but i’m sure many people would be irked by comments like that.

Onjit, mutantdevle

SirJosh3917 · 2018-06-04 02:59:07

TL;DR

Intersex people should deserve some kind of 3rd gender spot - I feel bad for what happens to them
LGBT people make up 10% of the population - they certainly aren't "normal", but that's no reason to treat them differently from anybody else
I try to stick to my original post as much as possible, I'm not cleaning up anything
I have a problem when you identify as something other then what your reproductive organs say you are.
I have no reason to not treat you as a human being if you're queer. If you perform a task equally as good or better then everybody else, there should be no reason for me to deny you access to do that. Discrimination shouldn't be allowed.
I'm disappointed my point didn't get across fine
Let me know where I've done any wrong doing and I'll try to clear it up
You grow as a better person if you grow a thicker spine.
If this is an argument about emotions, we have a lot more to do before we get there.

Anak wrote:

See, you're sorry I feel as though you've wronged me, but you're not actually sorry that you have.

I haven't wronged you at all.

You assumed that I called you a mistake, but you're misunderstanding.
The only time I ever called anything a mistake was this line:

ninjasupeatsninja wrote:

Sometimes mistakes ( unintentionally ) can happen, which leads to someone who has deviated from the rest.

and I was referencing a mistake during reproduction that causes an intersex to be born.
The intersex person themselves, are not at fault for a faulty reproduction - and neither are the parents. It's simply an accident.

What I did do, however, was

ninjasupeatsninja wrote:

say that someone who is intersex/LGBT is deviating from the norm

If you fail to agree with this, there's an obvious flaw.

Good luck convincing me that being LGBT is "average", "normal" or that it "happens to everybody". This however, is most certainly NOT an excuse to treat LGBT people as weird or odd, or exclude them -- or treat them with any form of harassment for that matter. To reiterate, being LGBT isn't "normal". Being LGBT is being 10% of the population. The other 90% isn't. It is no excuse to be harassed at all -- I'm simply stating that being LGBT isn't something that most people are.

_

Anak wrote:

and trying to clean up your act to appear as if what you're saying actually has merit and that your lack of value for queer people as human beings is something that's worthy of being an equally opposable argument

I'm not trying to clean up my act. I'll stick to my original post as close as I can. I have nothing against LGBTQ+ people. What I do have against it is when you try to convince me that you identify as a gender that you're biologically not. You have a mental condition, I shouldn't be changing the world around me because of your condition. Intersex people, they have a reason to identify as neither male or female, and as I stated in my original post,

ninjasupeatsninja wrote:

Heck, I'd even be willing to offer a third gender spot for intersex people only - it's saddening that something so horrific happened to you.

It's also not that I don't have a lack of value for queer people as human beings. You're certainly a human being, I can't deny you that. I have no reason to disqualify you for any reason if you perform as good as anybody else. What I can deny you, is special treatment just because you were born differently. Helen Keller was born blind and deaf, and learned to read and write despite these two things. If you'd like to convince me that you're facing worse oppression then her because of your mental state, I'd like to see you try.

_

Anak wrote:

My identity as a queer person is not some kind of flaw, mistake, or abnormality.

Not sure if I can agree, considering only 10% of the population has what you have. However, I don't care about your queerness. If you can ( for example ) fight in the military better then the rest of the soldiers, I have no reason to bar you from entry - I should be trying to get you in at that! If you can do a task equal to or better then the others, I have no reason to not allow you to do so. Discriminating you against your queerness shouldn't be allowed at all - it's blatant discrimination and something we should all be trying to collectively work together to stop.

ninjasupeatsninja wrote:

Discrimination, victimization, harassment, bullying, physical or sexual abuse, being disrespected, and homelessness are problems that everybody faces, and it isn't limited to transgender people.

_

NorwegianboyEE wrote:

Ninjasupeatsninja sounds like he’s expressing sympathy for Anak’s emotional state,

I apologize for not using a better choice of words .
That's fault on my end.

What I should've said, is

ninjasupeatsninja wrote:

I'm disappointed you feel that way.

And I'm not disappointed to be rude, nonono. I'm simply disappointed because my point didn't get across very well.

I hope this post can clear that up though ^-^

_

NorwegianboyEE wrote:

As it stands now, the apology doesn’t actually admit any wrongdoing. It’s just a deflection of fault and absolving oneself of all personal responsibility.

I don't believe I've done any wrongdoing as of right now - if you could clarify where I've done the wrongdoing, that'd be helpful. I'll continue to try to clear up my argument if it's not getting across as well as I'd like it to.

_

NorwegianboyEE wrote:

Instead Ninja might as well have said, “I can say whatever I want and it’s not my problem if you take it personally.”

I agree with this -- despite how inhumane it might seem at first. If you don't grow a spine and you're constantly pampered by society because they feel bad, you'll never improve. Look at Helen Keller! She was an utter brat before she was taught by her teacher. You don't grow if you don't get discipline.

If we'd like to start talking about people's feelings and emotions, reflect back to what happened to Whirl, reflect to what's happening to Sqwairle, look at how people treat peace's bad handwriting. They ( probably ) genuinely feel insulted and hurt, though ( it seems as if ) none of us care because we understand our points and they don't, which is exactly what I'm doing here. Please allow me to clarify any of my points if I come off scatter brained, or it doesn't come across clear.

Bimps · 2018-06-04 03:13:43

ninjasupeatsninja wrote:

[*]I have a problem when you identify as something other then what your reproductive organs say you are.[/*]

why

mutantdevle

SirJosh3917 · 2018-06-04 03:15:14

Bimps wrote:

ninjasupeatsninja wrote:
[*]I have a problem when you identify as something other then what your reproductive organs say you are.[/*]
why

ninjasupeatsninja wrote:

What I do have against it is when you try to convince me that you identify as a gender that you're biologically not. You have a mental condition, I shouldn't be changing the world around me because of your condition. Intersex people, they have a reason to identify as neither male or female, and as I stated in my original post,
ninjasupeatsninja wrote:
Heck, I'd even be willing to offer a third gender spot for intersex people only - it's saddening that something so horrific happened to you.

Bimps · 2018-06-04 03:17:18

but whether you literally have a **** or not doesnt change you mental state. you cant just say trans people are wrong because they have certain physical features.

SirJosh3917 · 2018-06-04 03:31:15

Bimps wrote:

but whether you literally have a **** or not doesnt change you mental state. you cant just say trans people are wrong because they have certain physical features.

I'm saying I shouldn't have to call you by your 'preferred pronouns' based on your mental state.

ninjasupeatsninja wrote:

You have a mental condition, I shouldn't be changing the world around me because of your condition.

I have no problem with people being trans. I only have problems with a select few of the ideas behind it.

Bimps wrote:

you cant just say trans people are wrong because

I'm not exactly sure what you mean to the fullest extent by when you assume I say "trans people are wrong", but if you could elaborate that'd be nice.

EDIT:

Watch from 0:54 to 1:22, this pretty accurately states my stance fairly accurately

N1KF · 2018-06-04 03:53:20

I think it is good that we take time to learn compassion for those who have it hard in life.

mrjawapa · 2018-06-04 12:16:28

Bimps wrote:

you cant just say trans people are wrong because they have certain physical features.

you can't just say you're a woman when you're not.

SirJosh3917

Onjit · 2018-06-04 12:24:31

mrjawapa wrote:

Bimps wrote:
you cant just say trans people are wrong because they have certain physical features.
you can't just say you're a woman when you're not.

What is a woman? Is it just the XX chromosomes? Or is there something more to "woman-ness"? I think that there's a difference between biology and sociology, and that it's not necessarily as cut and dry as you might like to think it is.

Slabdrill

Bimps · 2018-06-04 12:58:03

mrjawapa wrote:

Bimps wrote:
you cant just say trans people are wrong because they have certain physical features.
you can't just say you're a woman when you're not.

it isnt that simple

hummerz5 · 2018-06-04 16:14:38

Onjit wrote:

mrjawapa wrote:
Bimps wrote:
you cant just say trans people are wrong because they have certain physical features.
you can't just say you're a woman when you're not.
What is a woman? Is it just the XX chromosomes? Or is there something more to "woman-ness"? I think that there's a difference between biology and sociology, and that it's not necessarily as cut and dry as you might like to think it is.

edit: also,

ninjasupeatsninja wrote:

should be the gender they were born with.

Right, what defines how they should be? "And human studies have found that, in several regions, the brains of trans people bear a greater resemblance to those of cis people who share the trans subjects’ gender than to those of the same natal sex." -- so, if they're (hypothetically) thinking the same way as they want to be, are you still going to say it's the brain that's wrong and the body's right?

I'd say it's more sound/ethical, if something in that combination must change, to mold the body to match the mind. Forcibly changing the mind seems something we as humans still have trouble getting right with rough consequences when we do.

cite

mutantdevle · 2018-06-04 17:09:34

ninjasupeatsninja wrote:

LGBT people make up 10% of the population - they certainly aren't "normal",

Minority != not normal.

mrjawapa

Abelysk · 2018-06-04 19:12:50

Gender dysphoria is when a "man is trapped in a woman's body" vice versa. People suffering this condition feel out of place, distressed, like their existence is a mistake. They choose hormone therapy and surgery to become the opposite sex, because they simply feel wrong in their bodies. It isn't just "thinking" that you should be the opposite gender, it's a very real phenomenon that occurs due to birth mishap.

You can't just say these poor people have to suffer from gender dysphoria their whole lives.

Is it a mental disorder? Yes. These individuals have the right to change their appearance and biology to what they should be.

That's not to say all transgenders have that condition. A homosexual may consider transexuality as an option to appear normal.

mutantdevle · 2018-06-04 19:30:15

ninjasupeatsninja wrote:

I'm saying I shouldn't have to call you by your 'preferred pronouns' based on your mental state.

I don't think I'll ever understand why people think it's such a big deal to have to change the pronoun you use to describe someone.

Is it really SO hard to say she instead of he?

Them instead of him?

Fun fact, it's not. It takes no strain on you at all to simply use a different pronoun but the impact of making that choice is the difference between being incredibly hurtful and making someone feel that much more welcomed.

Zoey2070

LukeM · 2018-06-04 20:08:39

Why not just always use 'they', then you never use the wrong pronoun and it's even less effort working of what to say than he and she!

Zoey2070, RailMat

Official Everybody Edits Forums

#51 2018-06-03 20:27:41

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#52 2018-06-03 21:59:21

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#53 2018-06-03 22:13:47, last edited by SirJosh3917 (2018-06-03 22:14:10)

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#54 2018-06-03 22:23:56, last edited by TaskManager (2018-06-03 22:43:29)

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#55 2018-06-03 22:44:50

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#56 2018-06-03 22:48:36

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#57 2018-06-03 22:49:34

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#58 2018-06-03 22:58:45

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#59 2018-06-03 23:02:01

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#60 2018-06-03 23:05:00

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#61 2018-06-04 01:31:06

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#62 2018-06-04 02:59:07

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#63 2018-06-04 03:13:43

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#64 2018-06-04 03:15:14

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#65 2018-06-04 03:17:18

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#66 2018-06-04 03:31:15, last edited by SirJosh3917 (2018-06-04 03:34:59)

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#67 2018-06-04 03:53:20

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#68 2018-06-04 12:16:28

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#69 2018-06-04 12:24:31, last edited by Onjit (2018-06-04 12:26:16)

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#70 2018-06-04 12:58:03

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#71 2018-06-04 16:14:38, last edited by hummerz5 (2018-06-04 16:32:13)

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#72 2018-06-04 17:09:34

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#73 2018-06-04 19:12:50

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#74 2018-06-04 19:30:15, last edited by mutantdevle (2018-06-04 19:32:19)

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

#75 2018-06-04 20:08:39, last edited by LukeM (2018-06-04 20:08:55)

Re: Random LGBT+ debates 'n stuff

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