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#1 2018-04-10 22:50:38, last edited by Luka504 (2018-04-10 23:01:49)

Luka504
Member
From: Serbia,probs never heard of it
Joined: 2015-02-19
Posts: 2,652

A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

Well let's watch this topic crash and burn and see me getting banned for cyberbullying people with broken English. I'm up for a ban and some bad reputation, why not?
Alright, so with most users, grammar is not a big issue. They say things in an understandable manner and while they might have slight hiccups here and there, they convey their messages well. However, the issue stems from those outliars who speak English about as well as the foreign exchange student from China. (I won't say any specific names, however I think you all know precisely who I am talking about.)

Now I get that English is not everyone's first language and I perfectly understand that it is a hard language to learn and master.
But I also don't care. It's really **** absurd how with some users I need to spend a minute just trying to decipher what they are even trying to say, and even then there's no guarantee that the words they tried to use are even coherent to begin with. I'm pretty sure most of you feel the same way. You just stare at someone's post and are mentally debating whether you should even bother trying to understand what they MEANT to say. Some might try calling out people for their bad grammar, but for most they just read it and think ''Wow this is absolute trash so I'm just gonna ignore it''

While we're here, let me ask you something. Should people have a voice if they cannot use that voice? If you answered yes, then here's a follow-up question. Why? Why should they have something that they cannot use optimally?
If you make a forum post but it has such **** grammar that no one can understand it, then what was the point of that post? It essentially becomes spam but with good intentions tied behind it. And to me, your intentions mean nothing, but your actions mean everything. So they essentially are spam in my eyes. Like if I just made a topic like ''KDbkjfnejkndlaNSMC MC'' then I'm guaranteed to get warned for it, but someone can make something that's almost as incomprehensible and they get off scott-free? Yeah how about no.

What I am suggesting is some sort of penalty for the Engrish speakers or at the very least something that should reduce the number of them in the future. I'm not expecting a perfectionist system where no grammatical mistakes are allowed, but I at the very least want to be able to read a post and immediately understand the message the person is trying to convey. I think this would really help regulate the trash posts and keep the forums clean for everyone else.

Pls no ban


How long will it take me to get banned again?
Place your bets right here.

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#2 2018-04-10 22:55:12

Anak
Member
Joined: 2015-02-18
Posts: 2,083

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

Luka504 wrote:

Now I get that English not everyone's first language

*is not

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#3 2018-04-10 23:51:34, last edited by TaskManager (2018-04-10 23:51:55)

TaskManager
Formerly maxi123
From: i really should update this
Joined: 2015-03-01
Posts: 8,437

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

if you take a look on posts made by some people, this suggestion suddenly starts making a lot of sense

on the other hand, both you and i used to be literal garbage at typing in english some time in the past
i see whats the problem though, its not that non-native speakers make some mistakes here and there, its people such as peace that type completely incomprehensible gibberish, that is, actually without any exaggeration, extremely hard to understand. what can we do about it though? punish the poor fella for not writing in english properly? whether hes doing it purposefully or he is really just garbage at typing (or even disabled, who knows), we dont really know. maybe theres a nicer way to help him out on his journey of finding a spellchecker, rather than going witch hunting? is it worth the effort though, would anyone bother doing that?
technically, he did nothing wrong and punishing him just cause "you suck at english" would be just an unwelcoming attitude coming from the forum admins. there are people on these forums that deserve such an attitude much more than he does.

in my opinion, the easiest and most harmless thing that you can do about it is to simply not read his posts. if he wants to be heard by people, that will give him incentive to put more meaning into his text, if he doesn't really care then he will just move on with his life and stop posting here. OR talk to him and try to get it across that if he wants to contribute to these forums he has to work on his typing skills more.


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#4 2018-04-11 00:01:33

Guest.
Guest

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

tl;dr ppls grammar is getting **** abysmal

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#5 2018-04-11 00:13:13, last edited by LukeM (2018-04-11 00:14:23)

LukeM
Dev Team
From: England
Joined: 2016-06-03
Posts: 2,905
Website

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

I guess it should be added that usually the bad grammer is because people can't be bothered to check through their posts, not because they are not good enough at english to write coherently.

IMO it is alright if somebody is actually trying to be understandable, but when they just seem to assume everyone will know what they mean so dont bother to spend time on writing their posts then something needs to happen to give them an incentive to put more effort into being understandable.

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#6 2018-04-11 00:43:16

Tomahawk
Forum Mod
From: BiH/UK
Joined: 2015-02-18
Posts: 2,213

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

TL;DR: ban people with bad English?

Luka504 wrote:

Now I get that English is not everyone's first language and I perfectly understand that it is a hard language to learn and master.

Nah, it's age that's the problem.

You're best off just not reading the post.


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#7 2018-04-11 04:53:11

HeyNK
Member
Joined: 2017-04-07
Posts: 1,318

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

There should be an upper limit on posting > a limit of grammar since people like you cant stop talking and its causing the forum database to overload, causing mental overstimulation, and extreme deteriation of forum members.

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#8 2018-04-11 06:35:26, last edited by Luka504 (2018-04-11 06:39:05)

Luka504
Member
From: Serbia,probs never heard of it
Joined: 2015-02-19
Posts: 2,652

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

maxi123 wrote:

what can we do about it though? punish the poor fella for not writing in english properly?

When I said 'penalty' I didn't really mean bans, since I agree that getting banned for making grammatical mistakes is a real kick in the teeth and will most likely foster resentment within the people who are really struggling. I just want something that gives people a reason to think about what they say and how other's interpret that, and thus giving them an incentive to improve on their writing skills.

However, thinking about it, it doesn't necessarily have to be some form of punishment in order to make people stop spewing such badly worded posts.
You can do something similar to Pingo's suggestion in an attempt to reduce the number of people who make these types of posts.
Instead of punishing people with bad English for speaking poorly, maybe we could try encouraging them to become better by rewarding them if there is clear progress being made?
Those are the two other ideas that spring to mind that would achieve the same goal, aka reducing trash on the forums.

maxi123 wrote:

in my opinion, the easiest and most harmless thing that you can do about it is to simply not read his posts.

In the short run, yes this is the easiest solution we have, however in the long run this isn't really a good one.
What worries me is that in the future we will have more of these people who trash post, since new ones keep coming and the old ones still have pretty **** grammar since they have no reason to change. This leads to more annoyance in the community, as it has to spend time processing more posts, but also it makes the staff do more work, trying to understand if the post of that user breaks the rules or not.

However what really concerns me is that if people ignore these specific users, they might start developing feelings of being shunned or hated by the community, which is pretty much exactly how I felt back when I joined these forums in 2015 and still used the 'xD' emoticon unironically. Trust me it's a really **** feeling to have and I don't want other's experiencing it.


How long will it take me to get banned again?
Place your bets right here.

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#9 2018-04-11 08:46:41, last edited by Zoey2070 (2018-04-11 08:51:49)

Zoey2070
Moderation Team
From: Shakuras
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 5,344

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

what if we... gave gems to whomever takes their time to translate a post. incentive for people to at least read it.... but not really an incentive for the OP to improve. hmm

though honestly speaking, i really don't have the energy to begin to parse peace's posts, so I don't bother reading them even though I otherwise read like 99% of non-forum-game posts

like, bad grammar and english as a non-native language is completely fine by me, but there's a line that gets crossed when you don't even make a cursory readthrough of your post to make sure it's at least a little bit error free.

strain

it took me a minute to fix just by clicking whatever the spell checker suggested, added minimal punctuation, and pressing space for each new sentence:

Hidden text

...this has 37 things underlined by spell-check. most of them are just two characters switched around or spaces a character early but it dramatically reduces the readability of the post when it's THAT bad

(edit: oh yeah and the complete lack of punctuation)

like I'm definitely guilty of typos on occasion but i DO at least try to make sure my point gets across and has a bit of clarity.


if you want to be listened to, make an effort if someone tells you there's an issue.


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#10 2018-04-11 10:03:12, last edited by Gosha (2018-04-11 10:03:46)

Gosha
Member
From: Russia
Joined: 2015-03-15
Posts: 5,911

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

when i joined forums (2015-2016) my grammar was terrible as well. I improved it because i wanted people to understand me. No quiz will help here, only one's desire to improve.

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#11 2018-04-11 11:02:17

LukeM
Dev Team
From: England
Joined: 2016-06-03
Posts: 2,905
Website

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

Is there an easy way to enable a spellchecker in text areas? If so having millions of red lines might put people off posting with such bad grammer.

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#12 2018-04-11 13:38:17

bgic
Member
From: The Netherlands
Joined: 2015-02-27
Posts: 359

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

Yo are we talking about peace?


That's right, stop making jokes during game discussion. It's almost off-topic.
Stop about harambe, it's sad about died. It's all boy's fault for making harambe jokes to everyone.
Don't make jokes of him being died.
Rest in peace.

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#13 2018-04-11 13:41:48

Gosha
Member
From: Russia
Joined: 2015-03-15
Posts: 5,911

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

LukeM wrote:

Is there an easy way to enable a spellchecker in text areas? If so having millions of red lines might put people off posting with such bad grammer.

in chrome is pretty easy. Right-Click on text field and check spellcheck

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#14 2018-04-11 15:18:22

LukeM
Dev Team
From: England
Joined: 2016-06-03
Posts: 2,905
Website

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

Gosha wrote:
LukeM wrote:

Is there an easy way to enable a spellchecker in text areas? If so having millions of red lines might put people off posting with such bad grammer.

in chrome is pretty easy. Right-Click on text field and check spellcheck

I mean through HTML, theres no way we can get peace etc. to do that every time //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/tongue

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#15 2018-04-11 16:41:17

IanJanes
Member
From: Duluth Minnesota
Joined: 2018-01-05
Posts: 163

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

I'm not going to go and quote everyone, although I do agree with plenty of the suggestions here. It would be neat to have a team of people dedicated to helping people with poor grammar, this would be of course a task in which you sign up. If rewards for it were a thing we lose any good incentive, the job should just be purely to make a post readable; Not to include rewards. Heck, peace could be Stephen king but we don't know. It's an easily abused system, and is better off with a team of people who do it for free.

I think there could be a little button to "report" posts for bad grammar, spelling, and etc, So one of the team members would be notified and could deal with it accordingly. Though there should be a slight rule here, they have to have a spoiler with the old piece of text. This allows anyone to see if the posts intent was lost, or the post was deluded. (The team member messed up the post)
Once this is done, I think OP could also have a button to report mistakes or loss of meaning in the text, and to have someone come fix it.

Well that is all for my suggestion,
-Thanks!


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#16 2018-04-11 16:51:23

LukeM
Dev Team
From: England
Joined: 2016-06-03
Posts: 2,905
Website

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

IMO the goal should be to convince people to spend more time reading through their posts to make sure they make sense, as it seems some people dont even read it once //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/tongue

Maybe some flag option about grammer, and if somebody got too many bad grammer flags they would get a popup before they post saying something like "Several people have had trouble reading your previous posts, make sure you proof-read it to correct any mistakes so more people can hear your ideas"

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#17 2018-04-11 16:56:28

Anak
Member
Joined: 2015-02-18
Posts: 2,083

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

If someone wants their posts to be read then they will make an effort to make them readable. People have already told peace about the readability of their posts/to get a spellchecker/etc. and they either haven't responded or said they don't care, so I don't think it's anyone's problem but their own.

imo their posts aren't even completely incomprehensible, they just take a little longer to read. Decide for yourself whether you can be bothered to read them or not (I sure as hell can't be bothered to read a bunch of people's posts and they're all "grammatically correct").

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#18 2018-04-11 17:14:21

Ratburntro44
Member
Joined: 1970-01-01
Posts: 1,381
Website

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

if it's bad enough to be legitimately unreadable then it should already fall under the rules about spam


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#19 2018-04-11 19:30:08

N1KF
Wiki Mod
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 10,031

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

I think we should have a system that rewards users for making good posts.

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#20 2018-04-11 19:32:06

Gosha
Member
From: Russia
Joined: 2015-03-15
Posts: 5,911

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

N1KF wrote:

good posts.

That's very very very subjective.

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#21 2018-04-11 19:47:13

N1KF
Wiki Mod
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 10,031

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

Gosha wrote:
N1KF wrote:

good posts.

That's very very very subjective.

Want me to get more objective? Here a few ideas:

  • posts that are well-written and easy to read

  • posts that help the community

  • modest posts that aren't seeking attention

  • posts that are patient or kind towards one or more other users

  • posts that have funny jokes, but don't push the rules or talk down to other users

If you want the process to be more objectively done, just have users vote on posts. This could either be done in a single topic, or it could have its own system like woots, but with a stricter limit and a dedicated purpose. Users would give explanations for why they think a post is good and worth giving the reward to.

I feel this would be a really help the community's problem with negative and low-effort posts, by giving a natural spotlight to those who do well.

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#22 2018-04-11 19:50:48

Gosha
Member
From: Russia
Joined: 2015-03-15
Posts: 5,911

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

looks like description of https://www.reddit.com/

We had experience with reputation points before, wasn't pretty useful

But it would be good to have something than forum post count that allows to distinguish noobs from good players

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#23 2018-04-11 19:58:06

Anak
Member
Joined: 2015-02-18
Posts: 2,083

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

N1KF wrote:

I think we should have a system that rewards users for making good posts.

Good idea! I propose we start using upvotes. Maybe with a similar name to something already in EE. Hm...

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#24 2018-04-11 20:00:19

Zumza
Member
From: root
Joined: 2015-02-17
Posts: 4,506

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

Anak wrote:
N1KF wrote:

I think we should have a system that rewards users for making good posts.

Good idea! I propose we start using upvotes. Maybe with a similar name to something already in EE. Hm...

I propose: Swoots.


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#25 2018-04-11 20:12:04, last edited by N1KF (2018-04-11 20:13:56)

N1KF
Wiki Mod
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 10,031

Re: A bare minimum of grammar on the forums.

Gosha wrote:

looks like description of https://www.reddit.com/

We had experience with reputation points before, wasn't pretty useful

No, not quite. Woots and upvotes are more a generic "I like this post" rather than "I think this post is good for this community".

Requiring a public vote, plus an explanation, along with some guidelines means that they wouldn't fall to the same problem woots and reputation do—being a free-for-all where people can do pretty much anything they want to. Plus, -reps and downvotes encourage users to look down on other users, which is not at all what we need more of.

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