It's time for another physics update.

Bobithan · 2017-07-18 20:16:54

I'm not posting this in suggestions because I'm not suggesting anything specific. This is a post I'm making in an attempt to create discussion on physics and its role in Everybody Edits, and how great of an opportunity a port is to overhaul the game entirely.
Also as a disclaimer, when I'm talking about game feel, I'm being very subjective. I don't think EE has good physics so I'm going to talk about EE's physics as if they are objectively bad even though you may disagree.

Ok so I don't know how anybody's tolerated Everybody Edits physics for as long as we did. I just got obsessed with Edmund McMillen's new game The End is Nigh. That game and Super Meat Boy are both incredibly well done in terms of movement. Everybody Edits, on the other hand, is primitive. The main jump in the game is way too quick and heavy in comparison to platformers that take pride in their controls. N++, for example, has an extremely floaty and irregular jump in comparison to EE, but it feels enormously better. EE can do better. If Everybody Edits is ever actually ported over to another engine than flash, keeping the physics as they are would be a huge mistake. It's not as satisfying to control in comparison to other games.

There are ways to fix jumping without changing the physics, however. Intelligent sound, visual, and camera work can make a crappy jump feel better. That's not an excuse though for leaving things as they are, though. EE's jump doesn't give you enough control for interesting maneuvers. The jump is too short, too quick, and too symmetrical for there to be any depth in a single jump. EE's physics couldn't even be saved by double jumping, which often involves a more intricate design than just making the same exact jump once more in the air. It's still not interesting.

There isn't anything special going on, if you want a jump to be interesting in the slightest you need to add gravity arrows into the mix to create a jump that feels variable and good for the player, and even that mostly does not work unless you're extremely smart in your arrow placement. The acceleration defined on the smiley largely does not give you room for intricacies; I recently played a world for a few minutes using the new gravity effect which is cool, but the speed at which you fall in this game makes things happen too quickly to allow the player to do anything interesting.

So I suggest you watch this video if you're a huge nerd and you care about this kind of stuff:

The tl;dw of the video is that jumps should be designed and not based entirely on real world physics. Mario, for example, takes a while to rise, and falls quickly after the peak of his jump. That feels good, it gives Mario weight. Smileys don't have weight. They feel like paper plates jumping around in a Physics 101 kinematics exercise.

Everybody Edits has really good potential to be a top-tier platformer based on user creation, but the first thing it needs to do to get to that place is to revamp the physics into something more professional. Keep in mind this game wasn't intended on ever becoming a thing, it was just a sandbox for our lord and savior Benjaminsen. The jump was thrown together without much a second thought, and changes made since then (background update, anybody?) were simple value changes that did nothing to add to the depth of the game's movement. If EE is to become a thing again in a competitive environment full of competent platformers, EE is going to have to do much better. There's so much going for EE with all of the different action blocks in place to create engaging and creative platforming: the only thing holding it back now is the godawful physics. The camera doesn't help, either.

I know I'm basically just saying "this thing is bad, make it better", but I'm saying this so that we don't stick with what we have now. If EE is going to start fresh in a new engine it needs to take this opportunity to better itself fundamentally. Just add a checkbox for "legacy physics" if you don't want all of the old worlds to die. Let's make better worlds with better physics in the future, yeah?

Zoey2070, Dencc, Atikyne, danielcool1, Mieaz, Pingohits, Luka504, kubapolish, Onjit, 21Twelve, Moukdaboss, Bimps, Kikikan, skullz17, rat, Slabdrill, octodecillion, Pehpe, some woman, PTU, Minimania, liammatey

N1KF · 2017-07-18 20:36:29

It's time for......Should...We...Update the Physics Engine! *game show music plays, and crowd cheers*

Today's pro-change challenger is former moderator...Bobithan! *crowd is split between cheering and booing*

Now, without further ado, it's time to start! Get your arguments ready, folks, and don't just post popcorn eating .gifs!

3...

2...

1...

GO!

HeyNK · 2017-07-18 20:43:05

^ Bad post. Downwooted.

But good OP. I never considered how heavy the game feels until you brought it up. But how are you going to deal with this argument?

If you change the physics its going to break over 5 years worth of levels!

Vinyl Melody, kreacher

N1KF · 2017-07-18 20:46:48

HeyNK wrote:

^ Bad post. Downwooted.

You must have been that one weird person in the audience who booed at me.

But good OP. I never considered how heavy the game feels until you brought it up. But how are you going to deal with this argument?
If you change the physics its going to break over 5 years worth of levels!

Bobithan addresses this:

Bobithan wrote:

Just add a checkbox for "legacy physics" if you don't want all of the old worlds to die. Let's make better worlds with better physics in the future, yeah?

hummerz5 · 2017-07-18 20:47:32

OK, I agree things are incredibly subjective so it's hard to argue from a few different points. But, we could probably discuss how "legacy physics" would be required to upkeep the old levels, but at the same time we can recall that the game already has an overwhelming amount of doodads and doohickeys that make beginning a bit difficult. Would bipolar physics be added to that list?

On that note, how do you feel about the friction, for example?

Finally, I wonder how the peculiar jumps you suggest might handle the gravity things we have now. But again, without specifics it's hard to be specific I guess

N1KF

Pingohits · 2017-07-18 21:08:39

if we included a "legacy physics" option, wouldn't that mean the game operates with 2 different physics? how would this be acknowledged by the new players?

either we stick with what we have, or it's a complete overhaul

TaskManager, LukeM, Dencc, 21Twelve, Kikikan

Bobithan · 2017-07-18 21:26:52

hummerz5 wrote:

But, we could probably discuss how "legacy physics" would be required to upkeep the old levels, but at the same time we can recall that the game already has an overwhelming amount of doodads and doohickeys that make beginning a bit difficult. Would bipolar physics be added to that list?

Pingohits wrote:

if we included a "legacy physics" option, wouldn't that mean the game operates with 2 different physics? how would this be acknowledged by the new players?

The idea is that there are only two available kinds of physics: new and legacy. The new physics would exist entirely apart from legacy physics, and the legacy physics would only apply to worlds ported over from the flash version. At least, that's the way I'd rather see it work, just to prevent people from sticking to outdated physics.

The new physics require extensive testing and fine tuning to get just right. An example would be the alpha period of Rocket League, where old players of Super Acrobatic Rocket Powered Battle Cars helped the devs fine tune the experience to what is now one of the most successful video games. A lot of the SARPBC veterans on the release of Rocket League considered it to be a downgrade, but the change stuck and they got used to it and it's a huge esport now.

Not that Everybody Edits has a chance of becoming anything of an esport, of course.

hummerz5 wrote:

On that note, how do you feel about the friction, for example?

Idk, there's arguments to be made for and against fast and slow horizontal acceleration. Slow acceleration isn't as tight, but it leads to a lot of what makes EE platforming at least a little interesting, as a lot of advanced minigames are focused on speed management.

hummerz5 wrote:

Finally, I wonder how the peculiar jumps you suggest might handle the gravity things we have now. But again, without specifics it's hard to be specific I guess

This is a good question to be asking and a hard question to answer. I really don't know much about game development but this is the way I would do it from my marginal knowledge of game design:
1. Focus on getting the basics right. Find ideal ground/air acceleration (which are currently the same, I think they should be different), the ideal jump arc and timing, and the ideal max speed.
2. Add in the other doodads keeping their first and foremost principles in mind. Gravity arrows/effects switch gravity, boosts give you max speed in their direction, etc.
3. Fine tune those mechanics in accordance to how the basic movement feels. They might be fine as they are, really: my main gripe is jumping and gravity in the game.

Breadfinn wrote:

i don't think you remember what happened last time there was a physics change

I do remember. I was there for the drama. The thing about the background update, the one that broke a ton of old levels, is that it was simple value changes. Nothing was adjusted to create a better user experience, it was just a change in how things were calculated internally. It was a change from one bad engine to another slightly different bad engine. The change I'm proposing would be fundamentally different, maybe even adding in the ability to tap space to jump a little lower. Things like that.

Also I don't think you noticed the whole "legacy physics" thing

hummerz5

Tomahawk · 2017-07-18 21:32:42

EE wouldn't have become popular if it had bad physics, so there's a few thousand people who might disagree with you there.

If you change the physics it'll no longer be EE, and as any major change like you're describing would break pretty much every level, we'd be starting from scratch, unless it was introduced in parallel to the current engine.

hummerz5, LukeM

Processor · 2017-07-18 21:34:26

Yes because the way we want to fix this game is by breaking all existing worlds and alienating the existing playerbase, I'm sure that will go well!

Zumza, Kirby, Master1, Alesmile

hummerz5 · 2017-07-18 21:36:09

Tomahawk wrote:

would break pretty much every level, we'd be starting from scratch, unless it was introduced in parallel to the current engine.

Processor wrote:

Yes because the way we want to fix this game is by breaking all existing worlds and alienating the existing playerbase, I'm sure that will go well!

please guys it's a lot but there are some good points here

Bobithan wrote:

Just add a checkbox for "legacy physics" if you don't want all of the old worlds to die. Let's make better worlds with better physics in the future, yeah?

Processor · 2017-07-18 21:40:43

Yes because the game isn't complicated enough and we want new players to be confused about why some worlds work differently. We also definitely want to divide the community into those who only play old physics worlds (because they are used to it) and those who want the new physics and no longer enjoy playing existing worlds.

Kirby, Latif

skullz17 · 2017-07-18 21:41:54

Tomahawk wrote:

If you change the physics it'll no longer be EE

This is the main thing I'm worried about. Will we be able to do the same things we do with the current physics engine? Obviously not everything, but it would be nice to have similar sorts of minigames. Hopefully the fine tuning will ensure this happens.

TaskManager · 2017-07-18 21:45:14

skullz17 wrote:

it would be nice to have similar sorts of minigames.

i hope youre speaking of something other than hook jumps, t-jumps, 1x1 jumps and these pixel perfect minigames

kubapolish, Latif

skullz17 · 2017-07-18 21:48:33

maxi123 wrote:

skullz17 wrote:
it would be nice to have similar sorts of minigames.
i hope youre speaking of something other than hook jumps, t-jumps, 1x1 jumps and these pixel perfect minigames

No I just mean ordinary arrow minigames. Like yeah we'll definitely still be able to make them to some extent, but if smileys become less heavy it could affect stuff.

Sensei1 · 2017-07-19 00:01:07

Hi, have you thought about the looks. I think animation is also a big part of the "good physics" feel, but EE smilies don't move at all. "Better physics" might look weird with EE smileys.

Bobithan

Mieaz · 2017-07-19 00:05:01

Sensei1 wrote:

Hi, have you thought about the looks. I think animation is also a big part of the "good physics" feel, but EE smilies don't move at all. "Better physics" might look weird with EE smileys.

how about they move eyes and mouth a bit to left if they move left for example
any thoughts?

Bobithan

21Twelve · 2017-07-19 01:04:00

Processor wrote:

Yes because the way we want to fix this game is by breaking all existing worlds and alienating the existing playerbase, I'm sure that will go well!

This is probably what we need, though. A new game entirely. Either that, or a massive cleanup of what we already have.

Bobithan, some woman

Kira · 2017-07-19 01:40:22

Instead of updating the physics, why don't we make the game less face-paced? The current game is very fast paced making it really hard to create gameplays, and beating minigames as well.

Onjit

Moukdaboss · 2017-07-19 04:39:18

instead of updating physics why dont we delete ee and die ourselves

octodecillion, rat

Bobithan · 2017-07-19 05:07:49

Tomahawk wrote:

EE wouldn't have become popular if it had bad physics, so there's a few thousand people who might disagree with you there.

When EE was popular people didn't play for the physics. All of the popular worlds were the things that people constantly complained about on the forums. 1 block gaps, hookjumps, stairs, basic platforming, corner arrows, etc etc etc. There wasn't anything unique going on with 99% of the playerbase. The only people who cared about the more advanced stuff are largely just the people who have stuck around here until now. Yeah, sure, EX Crew was popular, but play their old levels. They ain't that good.

If you change the physics it'll no longer be EE, and as any major change like you're describing would break pretty much every level, we'd be starting from scratch, unless it was introduced in parallel to the current engine.

What defines EE is the living worlds where you can edit a level while people play it. What defines EE is the collaborative effort that can easily go behind any creation due to it being online. What defines EE is the endless user creativity that we harness to take the tools given and make something more. What defines EE is the community that formed around it in spite of its awful physics. The physics don't define EE, you're looking at a very narrow scope when saying something like that.

And starting from scratch shouldn't be too much an issue when we're talking about porting to an entirely new, entirely better experience.

Processor wrote:

Yes because the game isn't complicated enough and we want new players to be confused about why some worlds work differently. We also definitely want to divide the community into those who only play old physics worlds (because they are used to it) and those who want the new physics and no longer enjoy playing existing worlds.

Okay then how about we simplify it by removing the old physics entirely. Let the game live on in its flash version and make the Unity version completely separate with finer tuned physics that rival our competitors in a very active market for quality platforming games. EE, as it is, won't see a massive boost in popularity just because of an engine change. It needs something more: it needs to be a good platformer. EE has the whole "live, online, collaborative, creative, etc etc" spin that puts it apart from other platformers, but what it doesn't have is controls that come anywhere near other top of the line platforming games. It's a necessary change for the better.

Sensei1 wrote:

Hi, have you thought about the looks. I think animation is also a big part of the "good physics" feel, but EE smilies don't move at all. "Better physics" might look weird with EE smileys.

Ye, I mentioned it in the OP and I do think it's really important. Something that I think would help a ton would be simple particle effects of dust on jumping and landing, as well as soft "thud" sounds that vary slightly from jump to jump. That stuff may be intensive in flash, but with a unity port, particle effects won't be nearly as detrimental as they are now. Camera also changes the way we feel about jumps and I think it benefits the jump quite a bit right now as it is. If EE has done anything right, it's the camera.

Onjit, Mieaz, Atikyne, Koto

sapizza · 2017-07-19 20:46:30

I like the currect physics. kthxbye

skullz17 · 2017-07-19 22:14:10

I say we do what bimps said and stop updating EE (or just kill it), and make a spiritual successor to EE with these new physics.

kubapolish, Bobithan, Ratburntro44, Onjit, some woman, ByteArray

Abelysk · 2017-07-20 01:47:26

Easy peasy solution: when purchasing a world there will be "new physics" and "legacy physics" as two options. Even if you select one of them you can change it in the options afterwards.

A proper tutorial world should be able to cover it.

BTW guys although EE is cluttered it's not as bad as epicmafia. I still have no idea how to play that..

Bimps · 2017-07-20 04:33:28

skullz17 wrote:

I say we do what bimps said and stop updating EE (or just kill it), and make a spiritual successor to EE with these new physics.

thanks skullz, if i wouldnt have been banned for a one word post i wouldve said this.

towwl is right, archive all the ee levels currently (atilla has one iirc) and make a new game with physics that actually react to holding the spacebar (one of the worst things about the physics in ee imo)

Onjit, skullz17, kubapolish, some woman

John · 2017-11-30 17:42:23

I think this is pretty important to EE's future. What are your thoughts on an effect block rather than a checkbox? Would that be worse?

Official Everybody Edits Forums

#1 2017-07-18 20:16:54, last edited by Bobithan (2017-07-18 20:50:01)

It's time for another physics update.

#2 2017-07-18 20:36:29, last edited by N1KF (2017-07-18 20:38:42)

Re: It's time for another physics update.

#3 2017-07-18 20:43:05

Re: It's time for another physics update.

#4 2017-07-18 20:46:48

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#5 2017-07-18 20:47:32

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#6 2017-07-18 21:08:39

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#7 2017-07-18 21:26:52, last edited by Bobithan (2017-07-18 21:29:28)

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#8 2017-07-18 21:32:42

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#9 2017-07-18 21:34:26

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#10 2017-07-18 21:36:09

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#11 2017-07-18 21:40:43, last edited by Processor (2017-07-18 21:41:04)

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#12 2017-07-18 21:41:54

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#13 2017-07-18 21:45:14

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#14 2017-07-18 21:48:33

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#15 2017-07-19 00:01:07

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#16 2017-07-19 00:05:01

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#17 2017-07-19 01:04:00

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#18 2017-07-19 01:40:22

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#19 2017-07-19 04:39:18

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#20 2017-07-19 05:07:49, last edited by Bobithan (2017-07-19 05:08:47)

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#21 2017-07-19 20:46:30

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#22 2017-07-19 22:14:10

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#23 2017-07-20 01:47:26, last edited by Abelysk (2017-07-20 01:48:15)

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#24 2017-07-20 04:33:28

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#25 2017-11-30 17:42:23

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