Do the rich really earn their money?

Emma333 · 2017-03-21 22:22:17

Liberals say it's unjust to take away some money of the rich and use it to benefit everyone equally because the rich earned that money themselves, but did they really earn that money? I'd say a street worker works much harder than someone who works at an office and yet the street worker gets paid way less and gets much more health problems. Does the person who works at an office really earn more money than a street worker? They probably had more education which they had to pay for, and they could start working later than the street worker. But I think that evens out if you consider the health problems a street worker gets, and the fact that a street worker can only work for so much years because they can't do the job if they get older. While a person who works in an office can work much longer. So is it really fair for the street worker to earn less?

Being a CEO of a company is a hard job, you're working almost 24/7 because anyone can call you at any time. You barely have time to take a vacation and get your mind off things. But do you really earn so much more money than anyone else? At some point money doesn't benefit a person anymore, a more expensive car of a private jet will only be a relative small change.
Do celebrity's earn the money they get? Being a celebrity can also be very stressful, and celebrity's often work hard to keep their status. But does that work really equal the amount of money they get for their work?

I would like to hear other views on this subject, and some examples of rich people who have actually earned their money by working much harder than other people who earn way less. And if you can't justify the difference between wage and the amount of work a person does, why would it be okay to let someone who also works hard die because he can't pay his medical bills?

mutantdevle

hummerz5 · 2017-03-21 22:37:27

Emma333 wrote:

Being a CEO of a company is a hard job, you're working almost 24/7

well I imagine a lot of CEO's get enough money from whatever they're doing to pay someone else to actually worry about things. They then go golf. IIRC the income discrepancy between CEOs and minimum wage has grown excessively over time

Sports? Film? Indeed, the amount they are paid seems to exceed their work. But some market force must exist to gain them their numbers. Demand for particular people?

Raphe9000

Zumza · 2017-03-21 22:47:01

The market woks as following:
If there are more red stones than blue stones, blue stones will be considered to have a bigger value(because, perhaps not everyone can have a blue stone).
Applying this abstraction we can say that: there are fewer people capable to be photo-models than people capable to be dustmen, therefor thats why the second is paid less.

A democratic state should allow everybody to excel based on their talents at their full potential. But thats hard to happen.

Swarth100

N1KF · 2017-03-21 22:47:08

hummerz5 wrote:

Sports? Film? Indeed, the amount they are paid seems to exceed their work. But some market force must exist to gain them their numbers. Demand for particular people?

Entertainment is one of the most universally consumed products, and unlike other universal products, they demand personal roles. These personalities will grow more and more as more people become fans. You don't get this with obviously manufactured products like food brands.

Emma333 · 2017-03-21 23:02:23

I understand how the market works. I'm trying to find a reason to justify why it would be unfair to ask more tax of rich people than poor people. 'Tax is stealing money from the rich' is an argument I hear pretty often, I want to know how it's justified for the rich to not pay more tax than poorer people when they don't actually deserve the amount of money they have.

Norwee · 2017-03-21 23:12:23

"Liberals say"?
Trump is at the moment trying to pass laws making the 1% richer than before, further dividing the gap between poor and rich as well as furthering the decline of the middle class. If a conservative president is already doing it, the liberals must be BAD.
My country is extremely liberal, but at the same time socialistic. We have heavy taxation based on amount of wealth.
Both liberal and conservative parties outside of the two-party dictatorship/oligarchy USA can practise varying policies regarding economy.

Emma333 · 2017-03-21 23:25:50

I'm sorry for using the wrong term. In my country the people advocating lower tax for rich people are liberals. I'm not so sure about The US, but I think that would be the conservatives?

Norwee · 2017-03-21 23:35:58

It varies depending on the country which political party would if applicable, advocate for lower taxes. That's why using those terms without context in a international forum is misleading.

hummerz5

N1KF · 2017-03-21 23:36:38

Emma333 wrote:

I'm sorry for using the wrong term. In my country the people advocating lower tax for rich people are liberals. I'm not so sure about The US, but I think that would be the conservatives?

I think conservatives in the U.S. generally support less taxes for everyone, while somehow also supporting funding the military more.

hummerz5 · 2017-03-21 23:55:51

Interestingly enough, I'm supposed to be reading John Locke's theories on private ownership... which have plenty of holes in them. Perhaps you would appreciate them more than I. Indeed, though, at some point the level of private ownership results in waste or at any rate inevitable waste of resources... perhaps there is no limit to a person's greed but to a limit to their ability to benefit from large sums

2017-03-22 00:13:41

Emma333 wrote:

Liberals say it's unjust to take away some money of the rich and use it to benefit everyone equally because the rich earned that money themselves, but did they really earn that money? I'd say a street worker works much harder than someone who works at an office and yet the street worker gets paid way less and gets much more health problems. Does the person who works at an office really earn more money than a street worker? They probably had more education which they had to pay for, and they could start working later than the street worker. But I think that evens out if you consider the health problems a street worker gets, and the fact that a street worker can only work for so much years because they can't do the job if they get older. While a person who works in an office can work much longer. So is it really fair for the street worker to earn less?
Being a CEO of a company is a hard job, you're working almost 24/7 because anyone can call you at any time. You barely have time to take a vacation and get your mind off things. But do you really earn so much more money than anyone else? At some point money doesn't benefit a person anymore, a more expensive car of a private jet will only be a relative small change.
Do celebrity's earn the money they get? Being a celebrity can also be very stressful, and celebrity's often work hard to keep their status. But does that work really equal the amount of money they get for their work?
I would like to hear other views on this subject, and some examples of rich people who have actually earned their money by working much harder than other people who earn way less. And if you can't justify the difference between wage and the amount of work a person does, why would it be okay to let someone who also works hard die because he can't pay his medical bills?

Income isn't supposed to be equal, unless you're in some straw communist's weird wet dream; the job market's needs dictate it.

For example here an accountant is an average-paying job, while I've heard that in the US they're up there with some engineers.

And I might be just spouting complete BS (just something I've read once online and found interesting), but in countries with an individualistic culture like the US (or Brazil?) the wage difference (income inequality) between "lower" and "higher" jobs is more pronounced, you're supposed to work up the ladder and become a "self-made man". While in Europe it isn't as much.

ZeldaXD · 2017-03-24 16:33:59

Emma333 wrote:

I understand how the market works. I'm trying to find a reason to justify why it would be unfair to ask more tax of rich people than poor people. 'Tax is stealing money from the rich' is an argument I hear pretty often, I want to know how it's justified for the rich to not pay more tax than poorer people when they don't actually deserve the amount of money they have.

Taxation is not only stealing money from the rich, taxation is stealing money from everyone.

If a socialist revolution, also known as a wealth redistribution happened, what would follow is this; someone will knock at the door of your hose in your nice middle class, perhaps gated, community. When you open the door you will see the commissar Cletus and the commissar Billy, who will tell you that having such a big house for yourself is wrong and two families of hobos are moving in with you, because they work harder in their daily life than you. You will be allowed to have one room, one bed and necessary personal belongings. Everything else in the house will be shared.

The money of the "rich people" whose money you were about to redistribute left the country and only then you realize, that they and their money in their Swiss bank accounts are unreachable and there's nothing to redistribute. The corporations bankrupt and thus the DOW index collapses, making the currency a fancy green paper worth nothing (which is why the EU will never allow an absolute wealth redistribution, because it'd be an economical suicide). Then you realize, your country was importing food or other necessary things, because you didn't produce enough to support your entire population. Importing by paying with dollars, euros or whatever currency, which is, by the way, now worth nothing. So people are hungry, and to suppress the hungry AND angry mobs, red terror starts. And this is what has always happened in every country whom have tried to do this wealth redistribution.

Let me put you an example. You have a class with four pupils, they're John, Mary, William and Eve respectively. John is very bright and thus, in the first exam, he gets a 7. Mary is also very smart and works hard, so she gets an 8. William and Eve try hard, but they're not bright, so they get a 2 and a 1. This is what we have so far:

JOHN MARY WILLIAM EVE
7 8 2 1

Now, a "grade redistribution" happens, all their grades get lumped into a box and they're equalized.

JOHN MARY WILLIAM EVE
4 4 5 5

What happened? The grades were distributed, but there simply wasn't enough for them all to have a 5, but since William and Eve are believed to work harder than John and Mary and that they're opressed, so they had more points given to them. Now, John and Mary have failed the exam. For the next exam, they think to themselves "well, why should I work if I am going to be taken my grades away?". Now, William and Eve think to themselves "why should I work at all if Mary and John are going to do it for me?" So this is the result in the next exam:

JOHN MARY WILLIAM EVE
0 0 0 0

Everyone gets a 0 and there's nothing to redistribute, thus the system collapsing.

As the Russian saying goes, "You pretend to pay me and I pretend to work"

Pehpe

Norwee · 2017-03-24 18:09:42

ZeldaXD wrote:

Red scare

There's a difference between the little socialism that keeps a welfare state running between the nightmare communist scenario you describe however.
I'm sure that if the Trumpets in the US followed the Nordic model instead of trying to remove affordable health care for poor people and increasing military spending it would improve the lives of the poor + middle class and remove all those ghettos.

ZeldaXD · 2017-03-24 22:31:37

NorwegianboyEE wrote:

ZeldaXD wrote:
Red scare
There's a difference between the little socialism that keeps a welfare state running between the nightmare communist scenario you describe however.
I'm sure that if the Trumpets in the US followed the Nordic model instead of trying to remove affordable health care for poor people and increasing military spending it would improve the lives of the poor + middle class and remove all those ghettos.

The Nordic model (Nordic capitalism/Nordic social democracy) is not going to work in the US or other countries for the simple reason because their demographics are completely different (apples to oranges) Even socialists themselves doubt the sustainability of it, nevertheless to say you need a very strong labor movement for it to work correctly (something that has been on decline lately) and Scandinavia is more homogeneous than the US and with a way smaller population. Fun fact, did you know Denmark is battling for the #1 spot on country with the highest use of anti depressives per capita? Obamacare is messing with the healthcare of more people than it helps (and I know people whose case is this, and almost middle class) Nevertheless to say the many people, even in Scandinavia, who are against welfare (middle class people).

Here's an anecdote; Once upon a time I had something on my back and I went to the hospital, they told me I needed surgery and I was placed in a wait list. They called me 6 months later, by that time, the thing on my back was already gone. Now, let's imagine it was something deadly, I would have probably died, and this is the case for many people. Nevertheless to say that I wouldn't want my tax money to go to the 6th bypass of Billy McFat or the sex change operation of Robert "Lucy" Smith; let me decide for what to use my taxes for.

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#1 2017-03-21 22:22:17

Do the rich really earn their money?

#2 2017-03-21 22:37:27

Re: Do the rich really earn their money?

#3 2017-03-21 22:47:01, last edited by Zumza (2017-03-21 22:48:29)

Re: Do the rich really earn their money?

#4 2017-03-21 22:47:08

Re: Do the rich really earn their money?

#5 2017-03-21 23:02:23

Re: Do the rich really earn their money?

#6 2017-03-21 23:12:23, last edited by Norwee (2017-03-21 23:14:20)

Re: Do the rich really earn their money?

#7 2017-03-21 23:25:50

Re: Do the rich really earn their money?

#8 2017-03-21 23:35:58, last edited by Norwee (2017-03-21 23:37:12)

Re: Do the rich really earn their money?

#9 2017-03-21 23:36:38

Re: Do the rich really earn their money?

#10 2017-03-21 23:55:51

Re: Do the rich really earn their money?

#11 2017-03-22 00:13:41, last edited by 0176 (2017-03-22 00:15:32)

Re: Do the rich really earn their money?

#12 2017-03-24 16:33:59, last edited by ZeldaXD (2017-03-24 16:44:01)

Re: Do the rich really earn their money?

#13 2017-03-24 18:09:42

Re: Do the rich really earn their money?

#14 2017-03-24 22:31:37, last edited by ZeldaXD (2017-03-24 22:33:37)

Re: Do the rich really earn their money?

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