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Tako

Member

From: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Joined: 2015-08-10

Posts: 6,663

Website

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

How 'bout this: RPGMaster2000 can tell the judges that stairs are very overused.

I answered your question, did you not see it?

If we can't focus on the topic at hand, then I'm done talking, since you're far more interested in accusing me of things instead of discussing judges.

Look, I value their lack of intellect because it allows them to see levels for what they are without any distractions, expectations or bias. I'm not afraid of a noob level getting into the top 10, because that's just horribly unrealistic. Even if they find these crappy minigames mildly entertaining, that does not reduce the quality of the better levels that will win.

If you think differently, good for you. But I'd stop complaining about reality and get working on the levels, since it seems to be such a challenge to overcome.

Please respond to that. Right there. In the pretty box full of pretty words.

Last edited by Tako (Oct 20 2011 5:13:36 pm)

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Yeah, well, you know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

mustang

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Let's go line by line.

Look, I value their lack of intellect

I can't imagine any scenario where a judge lacking intellect is desirable. Perhaps that was just poor wording on your part.

because it allows them to see levels for what they are without any distractions, expectations or bias.

Ignorance is not the same as having no exceptions, distractions, or bias; that's a faulty conclusion on your part. An inexperienced judge will have preconceived notions about platforming games and art in general that could be flat out wrong when it comes to EE, and without the experience necessary to correct those false biases, their judgment will be far inferior compared to an experienced judge. Many others in this thread have posted similar arguments pointing out the necessity of experience when it comes to accurately judging.

Of course when you cover your ears (or in this case skip over the lines of text you disagree with) and simply repeat your argument over and over again (committing a fallacy of argument of repetition) it's easy for you to miss that.

Also, a judge with no expectations and no prior experience is incredibly useless. All judges must have an established voting criteria if they are to have informed opinions that are actually objective and relevant to the contest at hand, else they will generate nothing more than a random assortment of scores that will not reflect true quality. This is especially true when it comes to properly taking into account the degree of difficulty and the time it takes to build a particular challenge or artwork, meaning an inexperienced judge is much more likely to think highly of easy to make but good looking art, while putting it on the same level as intricate and time-consuming art.

In contrast, an experienced judge will properly award the much more difficult art extra consideration when making a final judgment, something the inexperienced judge cannot hope to do. Basically inexperienced judges will be biased towards easy to make and easy to play maps that they can enjoy, while experienced judges can look deeper into the actual construction of a map to see exactly what was difficult to implement despite it looking effortless on the surface, much like with dives that have a high degree of difficulty that laymen simply cannot appreciate.

I'm not afraid of a noob level getting into the top 10, because that's just horribly unrealistic.

That's a completely unsubstantiated claim that does not follow your previous claim that inexperienced judges lack distractions, expectations, and bias. You need to explain why a judge who lacks all of those qualities and who will be at a very low skill level would not prefer easy "noob" type maps that they will find to be fun.

In fact, some of the other claims you made earlier directly contradict this claim when you stated everyone will need to make easier maps with inexperienced judges, which inherently means these inexperienced judges WILL have a bias towards "noob" levels over more complex ones, despite everything you've been saying about a lack of bias and not having a "noob" level in the top 10. In other words, you yourself have realized inexperienced judges will have a preference for some levels over others, and that is by definition a form of bias.

The fact is easier maps (both to play and make) will be favored by judges that have not played EE before, and your "solution" of having RPGMaster2000 tell the judges that stairs are overused only reinforces this point that lower quality "noob" levels could indeed be voted high without experienced judges. Your arguments reduce to nothing more than a series of contradictory statements aimed at refuting single points but clearly failing to build any sort of convincing and coherent overall argument.

Even if they find these crappy minigames mildly entertaining, that does not reduce the quality of the better levels that will win.

Ah but the problem is you said earlier that inexperienced judges lack expectations, so how could they possibly appreciate true quality in EE without having the previous experience necessary to recognize recycled and poorly implemented concepts? What you've done here is falsely assumed some sort of "universal" criteria that people are born with enabling them to naturally notice quality in EE maps. Unfortunately that doesn't exist, not just in judging EE maps but in judging any sort of contest at all.

The bottomline is no one is born with the knowledge to properly judge a particular subject, and in fact many times a new player/judge to a game will have incorrect biases and preconceptions that will later on be expelled as they gain experience. Your mistake is in falsely assuming one does not need past experience in order to provide context for accurately reaching an objective judgment with new maps. Past experience is absolutely necessary when it comes to judging, or else the entire contest loses integrity.

I'm also speaking from past experience. When I used to debate, the inexperienced judges were absolutely terrible. They could not control their own inherent biases they had towards certain arguments, they tended to vote on emotion rather than on the actual debate that took place, and they simply could not follow the debate most of the time since they lacked the skills needed to listen and take notes.

The same will happen with judging EE maps; it takes experience to overcome emotional responses and to be open to voting for certain challenges and art you may not personally like but that you've learned to respect and appreciate, and it takes experience to efficiently and effectively scan and assess a map in general.

Last edited by mustang (Oct 20 2011 6:19:45 pm)

MIHB

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

How 'bout this: RPGMaster2000 can tell the judges that stairs are very overused.

I answered your question, did you not see it?

Am I a fool for thinking that stairs were cool when they came out?

Thats a fairly simple question to be answered "yes" or "no".   I am puzzled by how you consider that a response to my question.

Tako

Member

From: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Joined: 2015-08-10

Posts: 6,663

Website

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

No.

*cough* May I remind everyone (MIHB and mustang) that I never wanted a judging team of 100% of newbies, only a portion, because I do value the opinion of the public for which they represent.

However (and I said this a while back), members are required in a judging team because of their intelligence.

With this in mind, I think it could quite possibly be a good idea to have 1/2 and 1/2. Perhaps 3 of Chris' dev-friends and 3 people from EX.

I know, it sounds like a horrible, pointless idea at first, but hear me out:

1) The levels can't be made to appeal to the judges, because the judges vary greatly.
2) 1/2 of the judging team judges the simplicity, and 1/2 of the team judges the complexity. They both, however, judge on what is fun, original, and Halloween-themed, like I showed to you earlier.

First, can I suggest one thing? As much as I love reading, it's hard to take one thing from a page long of text. If you could explain briefly, that would be infinitely better and easier to understand.

Look, I value their lack of intellect

I can't imagine any scenario where a judge lacking intellect is desirable. Perhaps that was just poor wording on your part.

I value their lack of EE knowledge.

because it allows them to see levels for what they are without any distractions, expectations or bias.

Ignorance is not the same as having no exceptions, distractions, or bias; that's a faulty conclusion on your part. An inexperienced judge will have preconceived notions about platforming games and art in general that could be flat out wrong when it comes to EE, and without the experience necessary to correct those false biases, their judgment will be far inferior compared to an experienced judge. Many others in this thread have posted similar arguments pointing out the necessity of experience when it comes to accurately judging.

Concerning the EE levels themselves, they do not have many expectations. How could they? I'm assuming they have open minds, because I highly doubt they've seen enough levels to know what they love to see. A regular member does know what he or she loves, and will definitely vote for the level that contains their desired features.

Also, a judge with no expectations and no prior experience is incredibly useless. All judges must have an established voting criteria if they are to have informed opinions that are actually objective and relevant to the contest at hand, else they will generate nothing more than a random assortment of scores that will not reflect true quality. This is especially true when it comes to properly taking into account the degree of difficulty and the time it takes to build a particular challenge or artwork, meaning an inexperienced judge is much more likely to think highly of easy to make but good looking art, while putting it on the same level as intricate and time-consuming art.

They do have criteria; to be fun and Halloween-themed. The specific criteria you are suggesting, however, only limits their view of being "new and fresh" as RavaTroll referred to earlier.

If I enter a level with the thought in my mind "Ok, I want to see plenty of gravity, great art, minigames built into the art, and nothing too challenging", then that greatly limits my view for possible new concepts that I might enjoy.

In contrast, an experienced judge will properly award the much more difficult art extra consideration when making a final judgment, something the inexperienced judge cannot hope to do. Basically inexperienced judges will be biased towards easy to make and easy to play maps that they can enjoy, while experienced judges can look deeper into the actual construction of a map to see exactly what was difficult to implement despite it looking effortless on the surface, much like with dives that have a high degree of difficulty that laymen simply cannot appreciate.

I don't understand how an inexperienced judge can't differentiate between quality art and cheap art, could you explain this more? Like I might've said earlier, these people aren't complete idiots like we make them out to be.

Also, do you really think effort is of any importance? I thought we were judging the quality, not how much we tried to be quality.

Like I said earlier, it is important for someone to see the details, but it is also important for someone to judge based on initial reactions and overall quality without attention to the minor things, like how well the player 'feels' like they're in a haunted house, or how the minigames are arranged. When someone gets busy nit-picking every minor flaw in a level, that can sometimes distract them from seeing the overall level.

I'm not afraid of a noob level getting into the top 10, because that's just horribly unrealistic.

That's a completely unsubstantiated claim that does not follow your previous claim that inexperienced judges lack distractions, expectations, and bias. You need to explain why a judge who lacks all of those qualities and who will be at a very low skill level would not prefer easy "noob" type maps that they will find to be fun.

No, I was just combining my entire 'argument' into a simple paragraph for space reasons.

Inexperienced judges lack distractions:
In the previous response, I mentioned that the experienced judge will be overwhelmed by numerous characteristics, and will be able to see such minor flaws that it might distract from the actual, overall content.

Inexperienced judges lack expectations:
Also, I believe I addressed this point earlier, but I'll explain it again.

Someone who has never played the game before has minor expectations, who wouldn't? But he or she will still have more of an open mind than the experienced judge. Regardless, it is foolish to presume that Chris' friends will know exactly what they want and how they want it arranged like an experienced judge might, and I can almost guarantee they will. It may not be crystal clear in their head what they [the experienced judge] wants, but when they see it they'll know they want it.

Inexperienced judges lack bias:
I was referring mainly toward the people, not so much the levels.

An experienced judge will practically have it set in their skull that [for sake of example] BEE's team will come in 1st-3rd prize. But do the inexperienced judges know that? Of course they don't; they probably don't know who BEE is. This will open their eyes to see what an experienced judge might overlook for sake of being practical. In other words, the inexperienced judge will treat BEE just like they treat every other person in the contest, while an experienced judge will look at BEE's level with a more positive, less nit-picky attitude. They might treat their friends' levels with more respect, etc etc.

In fact, some of the other claims you made earlier directly contradict this claim when you stated everyone will need to make easier maps with inexperienced judges, which inherently means these inexperienced judges WILL have a bias towards "noob" levels over more complex ones, despite everything you've been saying about a lack of bias and not having a "noob" level in the top 10. In other words, you yourself have realized inexperienced judges will have a preference for some levels over others, and that is by definition a form of bias.

I was referring mainly toward the people, not so much the levels.

However, it is true that the experienced judge will prefer noob-easy to pro-hard any day, which is why I always wanted it to be half-and-half. Why? So the competitors (who care enough) will design a challenge that's fun for the noob equally as much for the pro, which is what I'd love to see.

The fact is easier maps (both to play and make) will be favored by judges that have not played EE before, and your "solution" of having RPGMaster2000 tell the judges that stairs are overused only reinforces this point that lower quality "noob" levels could indeed be voted high without experienced judges.

See above statement.

Even if they find these crappy minigames mildly entertaining, that does not reduce the quality of the better levels that will win.

Ah but the problem is you said earlier that inexperienced judges lack expectations, so how could they possibly appreciate true quality in EE without having the previous experience necessary to recognize recycled and poorly implemented concepts? What you've done here is falsely assumed some sort of "universal" criteria that people are born with enabling them to naturally notice quality in EE maps. Unfortunately that doesn't exist, not just in judging EE maps but in judging any sort of contest at all.

There are two distinct differences that even an inexperienced judge can differentiate; art and overall look. While the inexperienced judge could possibly enjoy the minigames we hate ever-so, those same minigames often, if not 100% of the time, follow poor art and bad setup eg. box-minigames and sprites.

If the specific level in question features great art and great setup but minigames that we find to be poor, there's another thing fighting for us; the originality. These people will be judging 200+ levels; when they see the tight-fit minigames about 10 times, they'll know that the level creator(s) did not put very much thought or effort into making it. Yes, the inexperienced judge does know something about effort.

Last edited by Tako (Oct 20 2011 8:25:42 pm)

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Yeah, well, you know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

mustang

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

^ Another logical fallacy, known as an argument to moderation, aka the middle ground is the best solution. It's entirely arbitrary to assume a 50-50 split is somehow the best solution when deciding to select between experienced and inexperienced judges. This is compounded by how you ignored the other arguments by myself, MIHB, and many others showing that experienced judges are more desirable than inexperienced judges, meaning even a 50-50 split is inferior to a purely or heavily pro judge panel.

Any concerns of needing a fresh opinion or a judge not swayed by big names could be achieved by having a handful of inexperienced judges on the panel or by being careful when choosing the pros, which then avoids the possibility of the less experienced judges having far too much influence on the winners or being easily manipulated by the pro judges.

It's also contradictory to have essentially two opposite goals by having a 50-50 panel, where the contestants have to somehow make a map that appeals to beginners yet can entertain an expert as well. It's far better to have the vast majority of judges be experienced so all the entrants can focus on pleasing them with adding in some extras to help out the few inexperienced judges.

The best solution is to find experienced judges who are honest rather than to find inexperienced judges who can be objective and effective in their scoring. Also, I highly doubt the Olympics (or any reputable institution) use a mix of inexperienced and experienced judges for their competitions, and they instead find ways to select the best possible pro judges who can be fair and objective in their assessments.

Last edited by mustang (Oct 20 2011 7:21:19 pm)

Shift

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Lol, I hate to break it to you guys, but all of your arguments are completely illogical. I, however, do not wish to dissect your statements, nor intervene by other means. Oh, and it's completely impossible to be unbiased. Noob or not, everyone has an extreme bias.

I love how diplomatic you're sounding.

MIHB

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Lol, I hate to break it to you guys, but all of your arguments are completely illogical. I, however, do not wish to dissect your statements, nor intervene by other means. Oh, and it's completely impossible to be unbiased. Noob or not, everyone has an extreme bias.

I love how diplomatic you're sounding.

I can speak and write in 15 languages.   I would write this reply in each language to show you that you are ignorant, but I do not care to do so.   Also, here is my opinion presented as fact, and now I shall commend you with backhanded praise.

Nice name.

Tako

Member

From: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Joined: 2015-08-10

Posts: 6,663

Website

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

I didn't ignore your (lengthy) post, I just threw you a bone while I made a better (longer) bone. :]

The best solution is to find experienced judges who are honest rather than to find inexperienced judges who can be objective and effective in their scoring.

I'll be honest here, my reasoning behind the 50/50 is nothing more than being torn down the middle in deciding which is better; the experienced or the inexperienced. I do indeed value the public's opinions, but I also value the experts' opinions because they both are great opinions nonetheless.

If it means anything, I don't care what they do at the Olympics or anywhere else for that matter; I like to look past popularity and decide truth for myself.

Maybe it's the cliché feeling having an expert as a judge brings. But with some practical thinking, I believe the inexperienced judge brings new opinions to the table that could decide a new winner that the others might overlook.

Which reminds me, I have a question for you: Are you legitimately worried that a 'noob' level will be one of the top three? Yes or no.

Last edited by Tako (Oct 20 2011 9:38:13 pm)

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Yeah, well, you know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

mustang

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

I value their lack of EE knowledge.

So someone with no EE knowledge should decide the best map? The rest of the world disagrees when it comes to competitions, and I can't think of anything that logically makes sense that could support your claim.

Concerning the EE levels themselves, they do not have many expectations. How could they? I'm assuming they have open minds, because I highly doubt they've seen enough levels to know what they love to see. A regular member does know what he or she loves, and will definitely vote for the level that contains their desired features.

So you conveniently assume the "new" judges would have open minds but the "pro" judges wouldn't, because that supports your unsubstantiated belief that a judge with no knowledge of a certain subject could render a better assessment compared to someone with knowledge. Unfortunately that's false as I've already described, since when people lack experience they not only default to improper criteria in judging a map, but they will also lack the skills to even begin to appreciate the work it takes to construct certain challenges and art.

Easy fun is all that will matter to an inexperienced judge.   More importantly, whereas an experienced judge can compensate for this unproven bias you continue to claim they have by being objective, an inexperienced judge has no chance of compensating for their lack of knowledge with the game. Hence it's much more rational to find honest experts than new players who somehow just know what makes a good map by instinct alone.

As an example, I am not partial to any particular challenge or form of art. I would be open to all new experiences and concepts found in a map, and in fact I enjoy something innovative far more than something recycled. A new judge would find everything innovative and new, and would have no ability to recognize and reward true innovation in a map, which completely refutes your claim.

They do have criteria; to be fun and Halloween-themed. The specific criteria you are suggesting, however, only limits their view of being "new and fresh" as RavaTroll referred to earlier.

False, the extra criteria allows for truly deserving maps to be rewarded. You're assuming experienced judges don't care about fun, and can't recognize something new and fresh, when the exact opposite is true. Experienced judges are able to take challenges into context by comparing it to past experience, something a new judge cannot do, and by doing so they can recognize designs that are truly new and fresh.

A new judge will think stairs are fresh and fun, something MIHB pointed out, and thereby they could vote for something truly not deserving. It's just like the diver example I mentioned earlier: to us laymen we have no chance at all at appreciating what is a difficult dive, all we can tell is if it looks "good", which is hardly enough information to decide a winner in a competition. That point has never been challenged by you, so I assume you accept it, and in light of that it's clear that without perspective a new judge will just think everything is hard to do, everything is novel and new, and hence they are in the worst position to determine something new, fresh, and innovative.

If I enter a level with the thought in my mind "Ok, I want to see plenty of gravity, great art, minigames built into the art, and nothing too challenging", then that greatly limits my view for possible new concepts that I might enjoy.

That's just how it works for you personally, you perhaps need to learn to be more objective. All of the pro players I know are open to and seriously enjoy new concepts. None of their views are limited, and in fact the best innovation continues to come from them since they have a deep understanding of the game mechanics that a new player lacks.

I don't understand how an inexperienced judge can't differentiate between quality art and cheap art, could you explain this more? Like I might've said earlier, these people aren't complete idiots like we make them out to be.

Also, do you really think effort is of any importance? I thought we were judging the quality, not how much we tried to be quality.

Sprite art is simple to do but it can come out looking really nice, whereas some art looks more like a sketch or painting making it much harder to do properly. An intricate challenge that took incredible precision to set up would be completely lost on a new judge who doesn't understand the game mechanics thoroughly enough. I'm not saying inexperienced judges are "idiots", I never used that word, but I am stating the fact that new players lack the knowledge it takes to truly understand EE at the core level necessary to be a great judge.

Also, please stop setting up strawmen. I never said maps were to be judged on effort alone, in fact I explicitly used an example of two nice pieces of art being judged, but one clearly took more talent and effort to create compared to the other. No where did I ever say a bad work of art would be considered over a good one based on effort alone.

Like I said earlier, it is important for someone to see the details, but it is also important for someone to judge based on initial reactions and overall quality without attention to the minor things, like how well the player 'feels' like they're in a haunted house, or how the minigames are arranged. When someone gets busy nit-picking every minor flaw in a level, that can sometimes distract them from seeing the overall level.

Why can't an expert judge assess initial reactions and overall quality? This is 100% your opinion and it's designed to further your position despite the obvious falsehood. The burden of proof is on you to show why an expert judge cannot properly assess atmosphere and overall appearance, which makes no sense considering someone who is knowledgeable is better equipped to judge those issues. Again, perhaps this applies to you, but it does not apply to any of the pro players I know.

To put it another way, you're basically saying a movie critic can't properly judge the overall feel of a movie, or a professional chef can't properly assess the overall look of a dish. That's absurd, and I hope you do not continue to make such outlandish claims.

Inexperienced judges lack distractions:
In the previous response, I mentioned that the experienced judge will be overwhelmed by numerous characteristics, and will be able to see such minor flaws that it might distract from the actual, overall content.

False, it takes experience to properly assess every aspect of a map, including the overall content. Saying experts focus only on details and cannot be impressed by the overall content of the map is absurd.

Inexperienced judges lack expectations:
Also, I believe I addressed this point earlier, but I'll explain it again.

Someone who has never played the game before has minor expectations, who wouldn't? But he or she will still have more of an open mind than the experienced judge. Regardless, it is foolish to presume that Chris' friends will know exactly what they want and how they want it arranged like an experienced judge might, and I can almost guarantee they will. It may not be crystal clear in their head what they [the experienced judge] wants, but when they see it they'll know they want it.

False, just because someone is an expert doesn't mean he/she is closed minded. Innovation is routinely recognized and enjoyed by the pro players in EE, who are the best ones equipped to appreciate something truly different as opposed to someone inexperienced who thinks everything is new.

Inexperienced judges lack bias:
I was referring mainly toward the people, not so much the levels.

As I proved earlier, inexperienced judges are inherently biased towards easier maps. There's no way around that, if it's a map they can't really beat then they will most likely dislike it whereas they will find an easy map very enjoyable. I know of no pro judges that are biased by names, and you need proof before you claim someone like me or MIHB or any other pro would actually take into consideration who made a map when judging.

So while the bias that exists in the inexperienced judges is real and everyone agrees it exists, the bias that supposedly exists in the pro judges is unproven and more importantly it can easily be compensated for by choosing expert players with honest reputations, which is better than going with a completely unknown new player.

An experienced judge will practically have it set in their skull that [for sake of example] BEE's team will come in 1st-3rd prize. But do the inexperienced judges know that? Of course they don't; they probably don't know who BEE is. This will open their eyes to see what an experienced judge might overlook for sake of being practical. In other words, the inexperienced judge will treat BEE just like they treat every other person in the contest, while an experienced judge will look at BEE's level with a more positive, less nit-picky attitude. They might treat their friends' levels with more respect, etc etc.

Actually the opposite is true. An inexperienced judge would open BEE's map and be so wowed by the art that they may give it first place regardless of the content of the minis, whereas an expert who can overcome the emotional response to the art will make sure to dissect it properly and compare it to other maps before awarding it a place. Again, do you actually know of one expert player that would just hand BEE the prize due to her name? I certainly do not, and in fact when I competed in the Easter contest I knew the expert judges didn't care at all about the names attached to our entry and voted as objectively as they could.

I can't stress this enough since you refuse to acknowledge this point: if you are worried about dishonest judges, we can just make sure we are careful with picking the judges. There is no need to grab some player that has no clue how to play the game to ensure objectivity, especially not when there are numerous honest expert players here in the community. The solution you propose is completely unnecessary and is not practiced in any competition precisely due to the importance of experience when picking a judge.

However, it is true that the experienced judge will prefer noob-easy to pro-hard any day, which is why I always wanted it to be half-and-half. Why? So the competitors (who care enough) will design a challenge that's fun for the noob equally as much for the pro, which is what I'd love to see.

That's just confusing for the map makers. You can't have two widely different target audiences in the judging panel or else the entrants will not know what route to take. It's far more logical to allow the map makers to use any difficulty they wish and as long as it's fun the expert judges will still think highly of it, versus forcing everyone to make easy maps to avoid losing the inexperienced half of the judging panel while worrying that it might be dull for the experts.

There are two distinct differences that even an inexperienced judge can differentiate; art and overall look. While the inexperienced judge could possibly enjoy the minigames we hate ever-so, those same minigames often, if not 100% of the time, follow poor art and bad setup eg. box-minigames and sprites.

The art might be poor to our eyes, but for a new judge it may look colorful and good enough for first place. This is why context, experience, and objectivity are critical in making fair judgments, and a new judge lacks all of those qualities. A colorful recycled map with many unoriginal and easy minis could very well be good enough for a new player, and it makes absolutely no sense to take that risk just because there's an unproven chance an expert might consider the name of the map maker in the contest.

If the specific level in question features great art and great setup but minigames that we find to be poor, there's another thing fighting for us; the originality. These people will be judging 200+ levels; when they see the tight-fit minigames about 10 times, they'll know that the level creator(s) did not put very much thought or effort into making it. Yes, the inexperienced judge does know something about effort.

That's an assumption, what could instead happen is the new judges love the tight fit minis and dislike the more intricate maps, meaning all the top 10 are dominated by unoriginal and bland minis and/or stairs. Again, a new judge will just go with what they think is fun and what looks good enough to them, an expert judge has the knowledge needed to look for true innovation and true quality amongst all of the noise.

I'll be honest here, my reasoning behind the 50/50 is nothing more than being torn down the middle in deciding which is better; the experienced or the inexperienced. I do indeed value the public's opinions, but I also value the experts' opinions because they both are great at providing opinions.

If it means anything, I don't care what they do at the Olympics or anywhere else for that matter; I like to look past popularity and decide truth for myself.

Maybe it's the cliché feeling having an expert as a judge brings. But with some practical thinking, I believe the inexperienced judge brings new opinions to the table that could decide a new winner.

You finally reveal your ulterior motive for pushing so hard with absurd and contradictory claims: you want there to be a new winner. That's completely your opinion, and if the same exact talented people from last contest make the best maps in this contest then they deserve to win regardless of you wanting there to be different first place winners.

New opinions do not mean good opinions, that's something you refuse to accept. In a contest the best should win, which is why knowledgeable but trustworthy people should judge. The irony is all throughout your posts you claim you want honest judges, yet you are willing to go with new people you have absolutely know nothing about over established players with reputations that clearly show they would be fair. It's completely self-contradictory, yet you will likely continue to back your claims in order to get a "new" winner.

Bottomline is the past winners were willing to judge, they were turned down, so they now have to compete. Your anger at the same people always winning is better served by focusing on how these same people were denied judging spots, which would have allowed new people to win by default.

Which reminds me, I have a question for you: Are you legitimately worried that a 'noob' level will be one of the top three? Yes or no.

In an all new judge panel yes, that could easily happen. In a 50-50 panel, it's less likely but many of the other places could easily be turned around due to the inexperienced judges.

Best solution to all of this madness, let's just find honest and trustworthy judges, and let's have the past winners become the judges to avoid the same people winning everytime. That should satisfy all of your demands even more so than your own solution of having unknown new players knowing nothing about the game judge.

Garfield2436

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Best arguement ever

Last edited by Garfield2436 (Oct 20 2011 10:24:56 pm)

MIHB

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Just for the fun of it, lets look at what TakoMan02 thought of the last contest:

Ok, the easter levels recently got judged and I didn't come in first or second. I'm somewhat disappointed, because I believed greatly that I'd come in at least second place. I'm not furious, and I'm not going to start yelling at random judges for it, but seeing all these signatures with "1ST PLACE!" or "2ND PLACE!" makes me feel worse.

I can't force you to make any decisions, and I suspect most of you will just ignore this; but every time I see one of those signatures it reminds me of what an epic fail I am.

I understand how proud you are, but honestly, only the winners care. If you lost the contest like me I'm sure you could care less, so if you at least took the picture off I'd love you.

Hmm, so he thought he should have gotten better than he did, did he?   Sounds like he doesn't like how the judging went last time.   Remind me, was it experts judging last time?

Lets observe his level:

http://eeforumify.com/viewtopic.php?id=6853

I see people giving commentary, saying that the gameplay is no good.   Look at this!   It is our friend shift, saying that Johan is a noob!   Astounding.

I remember playing that level, and it was indeed tedious as hell.   Furthermore, keys everywhere looked fine on the minimap, but that was at the cost of a hideous aesthetic nightmare in-game.   It ain't the judges being experts that is preventing you from winning, TakoMan02.

Garfield2436

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

We just want expert, good judges like mustang and RavaTroll. If we have blind judges who don't even know the physics of EE, what good will it do? They will only think that stairs and smiley art are more entertaining than trees or anything else.
Not only that, we also have to make very easy minigames for the judges instead of hard, original ones we enjoy doing. Plus, when it comes to judging time and the levels that sucks such as haunted house wins, everything will be too chaotic.

Last edited by Garfield2436 (Oct 20 2011 10:35:18 pm)

mustang

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

I'll summarize for you Garfield2436

EDIT - I was too late but that's ok.

TakoMan02 thinks new players would make good judges since they are not biased by the names of the map makers, and because new players don't have expectations or favorite art/puzzles. His ultimate goal is to see new winners.

I responded by saying:

1) New players will be biased in favor of easy levels and can't appreciate how difficult it is to make certain art and challenges.

2) New players lack the skills and experience needed to overcome emotional responses and make objective and fair assessments.

3) New players are complete unknowns and could easily be wowed by big name map makers especially the maps with amazing art.

4) New players simply lack the knowledge and skill needed to play a map and accurately judge it, no other competition has novices judge.

5) Most pro players are honest and trustworthy, so we can use the community to make sure the pro judges wouldn't be biased by names.

6) Only pro players can recognize true innovation since they have the necessary experience, new players will think everything is new.

7) If the previous winners make the best maps again, then they deserve to win again instead of purposely picking new winners for the sake of it.

8) The best solution for everyone is to let previous winners judge, so we can have trustworthy pro judges who know what they are doing and new winners.

There's more but that's the basic idea.

Last edited by mustang (Oct 20 2011 10:37:30 pm)

Garfield2436

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Best arguement ever

I'll summarize for you.

TakoMan02 thinks new players would make good judges since they are not biased by the names of the map makers, and because new players don't have expectations or favorite art/puzzles. His ultimate goal is to see new winners.

I responded by saying:

1) New players will be biased in favor of easy levels and can't appreciate how difficult it is to make certain art and challenges.

2) New players lack the skills and experience needed to overcome emotional responses and make objective and fair assessments.

3) New players are complete unknowns and could easily be wowed by big name map makers especially the maps with amazing art.

4) New players simply lack the knowledge and skill needed to play a map and accurately judge it, no other competition has novices judge.

5) Most pro players are honest and trustworthy, so we can use the community to make sure the pro judges wouldn't be biased by names.

6) Only pro players can recognize true innovation since they have the necessary experience, new players will think everything is new.

6) If the previous winners make the best maps again, then they deserve to win again instead of purposely picking new winners for the sake of it.

7) The best solution for everyone is to let previous winners judge, so we can have trustworthy pro judges who know what they are doing and new winners.

There's more but that's the basic idea.

Why blind judges though? That sounds ridiculous as what I have posted earlier on.
And yes, I do agree that previous winners should judge instead, as they have more expierence than "blind friends" or something like that.

Last edited by Garfield2436 (Oct 20 2011 10:37:54 pm)

Shift

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

This is my reply yo the mostly irrelevant part of the argument that concerns me directly. I ask that you don't actually reply to this, for it's not an argument, only the facts.

Lol, I hate to break it to you guys, but all of your arguments are completely illogical. I, however, do not wish to dissect your statements, nor intervene by other means. Oh, and it's completely impossible to be unbiased. Noob or not, everyone has an extreme bias.

I love how diplomatic you're sounding.

I can speak and write in 15 languages.   I would write this reply in each language to show you that you are ignorant, but I do not care to do so.   Also, here is my opinion presented as fact, and now I shall commend you with backhanded praise.

Nice name.

Don't assume it's logical just because you can write it in several languages, for it isn't.

Ikr? You guys must have loved it, since you named that level after me.

I see people giving commentary, saying that the gameplay is no good.   Look at this!   It is our friend shift, saying that Johan is a noob!   Astounding.

I believe that, if you actually read the comments, you will see the misunderstanding. I had never heard of Johan before, and, therefore, thought he was acting like some noob (aka a person who thinks he knows, and nitpicks on, absolutely everything, but doesn't).

Anyway, I was on your side, why should you attack me?

ani

Member

Joined: 2015-02-17

Posts: 649

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Mustangs awesome holyshytsuperlongsexyawesomehotwhoohoo long post that he posted today at 14:22:34 goes here

SHIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET. That's alot of lettars.

tl;dr o.e hope you didn't sprain a finger or ten.

Last edited by FuzzySocks (Oct 21 2011 4:27:23 am)

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ヽ(•‿•)ノ    ❤ ♬ ✩    t u t u r u !~    ✧☁ ☂    ヽ(•‿•)ノ

gamez7

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Best arguement ever

MIHB

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Meh, bored with this.

Last edited by MIHB (Oct 21 2011 6:28:20 am)

Ralaina

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

I dont really understand why there was a need to have this discussion. Is it really that important? It's just an onlinegame, it's nothing serious. Well, I can understand about the part when Chris refused to give the prices to the judges, but the rest I find not worth discussing.
Eh I shouldn't even enter this discussion, because everythings already been said.

But I dont get why people have to get so serious about a game. Yeah Chris might have offended you, but is it really worth getting mad at?(Even though you might not be mad, just an assumption)

If I had been more interested in the subject, I would have written something longer. But this topic is way to boring to waste time on.

Last edited by Ralaina (Oct 21 2011 6:48:21 am)

Tako

Member

From: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Joined: 2015-08-10

Posts: 6,663

Website

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

1) New players will be biased in favor of easy levels and can't appreciate how difficult it is to make certain art and challenges.

2) New players lack the skills and experience needed to overcome emotional responses and make objective and fair assessments.

3) New players are complete unknowns and could easily be wowed by big name map makers especially the maps with amazing art.

4) New players simply lack the knowledge and skill needed to play a map and accurately judge it, no other competition has novices judge.

5) Most pro players are honest and trustworthy, so we can use the community to make sure the pro judges wouldn't be biased by names.

6) Only pro players can recognize true innovation since they have the necessary experience, new players will think everything is new.

7) If the previous winners make the best maps again, then they deserve to win again instead of purposely picking new winners for the sake of it.

8) The best solution for everyone is to let previous winners judge, so we can have trustworthy pro judges who know what they are doing and new winners.

Such certainty!

The types of judges you speak of, yes; they can do everything an inexperienced judge can, including: controlling their emotions, bias, and making the blind see. You're doing nothing more than molding your model for a 'Jesus-judge' into everything an inexperienced judge can't do.

So I guess you can say I agree; they Jesus-judges you speak of would be fantastic for the job.

In all seriousness, what you describe to be an experienced player contains qualities that come with just a great overall character, some of which can be found in the newer players; like being able to overcome emotional responses. You can play EE for years until you turn purple, but that does not mean it will change your character into being uneasily persuaded by initial reactions. A new player, like Chris' dev-friends could very well be able to overcome emotional responses. Another example, you say "Most pro players are honest and trustworthy". That is completely false in every sense of the word; the amount of hand-eye coordination and amount of time you play video games does not alter how truthful you are, in any situation. This can also be used against yourself; I can say "Most adult game developers are honest and trustworthy". I can actually back up that statement -- Chris made them judges, right? He obviously trusts them to be responsible judges. They must be trustworthy. New players will think everything is new? After their 50th level, they will think tight-fit minigames are new? New players are wowed by amazing art? What makes you think they're that shallow to say "Amazing art; they win."

These are real people, not 5yo noobs. And experienced players are real people, not Jesus' siblings who are perfect in everything they do. Neither group can or should be defined based off assumptions, so I consider both of us foolish for trying to define the judges before even knowing who they are.

Last edited by Tako (Oct 21 2011 1:05:26 pm)

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Yeah, well, you know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

BEE

Member

Joined: 2015-03-14

Posts: 1,679

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Tako, as a serious concern, perhaps you should ask your english teacher to assist you in writing persuasively. Or perhaps you should take a class on logical fallacies. Your writing style and voice concerns me as a member of the intellectual community.

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Thanks Xen for my Avatar and Smitty for the smiley

Tako

Member

From: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Joined: 2015-08-10

Posts: 6,663

Website

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Thanks for the help, but the English teacher I have isn't teaching persuasive writing, and I'm not trying to persuade anyone. My hypocrisy and incorrect logic is nothing more than me being immature like I am. In 4-5 years when I'm as old as the rest of you, I'll be sure that I meet your expectations.

Trust me, I hate myself too. Understand it is not my intentions to be hypocritical, contradictory, annoying, and every other flaw you see, rather a reflection of my genes which I cannot change at whim or request.

However, I implore that we do not redirect this on me. As I told MIHB, if this turns into a debate about me and my flaws then I will stop talking, because it is of far more interest to accuse me of things than to discuss the topic at hand.

Which, as far as I'm concerned, is done with. mustang has presented his opinions, I have presented mine, and I agree with his.

Last edited by Tako (Oct 21 2011 9:09:35 am)

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Yeah, well, you know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

Aoitenshi

Member

Joined: 2015-02-18

Posts: 2,058

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

I retracted my mind thinking that I could win...

BEE

Member

Joined: 2015-03-14

Posts: 1,679

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Tako, I think you missed the point of my comment entirely, sorry to say. Perhaps someone else can help you if you still do not understand as to the purpose of my comment.

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Garfield2436

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Well if you agree to mustang's opinions TakoMan02, why is it that you keep argueing pointless reasons about blind judges?