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MIHB

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Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

I'd rather have a random stranger judge my painting than a professional artist judge my painting. The professional artist, he sees things that a random stranger wouldn't, yes. But I don't want those things to influence his vote, because they're often irrelevant. A stranger? No expectations. They judge the levels with a completely open mind.

Lets say you come up with a painting that is truly new and original, and nice to look at.   Awesome!   Some other guy comes up with a painting that is nice to look at, but is also highly derivative of a thousand other paintings.

The random stranger will rank the two paintings similarly.   The professional artist will recognize that your painting is original and that the other painting is unoriginal, and judge accordingly.
This is what you are underestimating: experienced creators here have hundreds of levels worth of playing experience such that they can identify what has been done before, vs. what is truly new and fresh.

Other game developers will not.   Their experience is with their game, not with ee.   They do not have the storehouse of information about what is fresh and what is overdone.

You keep harping on how "anybody can judge what is fun and interesting."   That isn't true at all, because what is fun and interesting largely depends on how fresh something is.   Do you remember the first stairs?   Those were no different than what is made now, but they were enormously fun, because we hadn't played stairs before.   After playing them a hundred or so times, they get a little tiring.

Chris's friends will have no way of saying "this idea is new, this idea is old".   EVERYTHING will be new to them, and they won't be especially good at things, so anything of some complexity will be too hard to enjoy, and more importantly, too hard for them to play through properly and judge correctly.   There will be a huge bias towards the same standard minigames you see in every single level, because those minigames will all be new to them, and easy enough for them to have fun.

Shift

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

I'm with MIHB, for a random stranger with no experience has, well, no experience. I want somebody who recognizes the effort put into my art, and who can actually complete the minigames.

I would, of course, like a middle ground: An experienced, renowned player who won't nitpick. Sadly, that doesn't exist, so I would choose the more experienced person.

Tako

Member

From: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Joined: 2015-08-10

Posts: 6,663

Website

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

I'd rather have a random stranger judge my painting than a professional artist judge my painting. The professional artist, he sees things that a random stranger wouldn't, yes. But I don't want those things to influence his vote, because they're often irrelevant. A stranger? No expectations. They judge the levels with a completely open mind.

Lets say you come up with a painting that is truly new and original, and nice to look at.   Awesome!   Some other guy comes up with a painting that is nice to look at, but is also highly derivative of a thousand other paintings.

The random stranger will rank the two paintings similarly.   The professional artist will recognize that your painting is original and that the other painting is unoriginal, and judge accordingly.
This is what you are underestimating: experienced creators here have hundreds of levels worth of playing experience such that they can identify what has been done before, vs. what is truly new and fresh.

Other game developers will not.   Their experience is with their game, not with ee.   They do not have the storehouse of information about what is fresh and what is overdone.

You keep harping on how "anybody can judge what is fun and interesting."   That isn't true at all, because what is fun and interesting largely depends on how fresh something is.   Do you remember the first stairs?   Those were no different than what is made now, but they were enormously fun, because we hadn't played stairs before.   After playing them a hundred or so times, they get a little tiring.

Chris's friends will have no way of saying "this idea is new, this idea is old".   EVERYTHING will be new to them, and they won't be especially good at things, so anything of some complexity will be too hard to enjoy, and more importantly, too hard for them to play through properly and judge correctly.   There will be a huge bias towards the same standard minigames you see in every single level, because those minigames will all be new to them, and easy enough for them to have fun.

Don'tya think the judges will have their hands full with the actually good levels? I'm surprised you'd think that any level with stairs or crappy minigames could be considered better than a good level.

I want somebody who recognizes the effort put into my art, and who can actually complete the minigames.

Effort is extremely obvious.

If the judges can't complete the minigames, then perhaps you should make them easier. Just a suggestion.

Problems solved.

Last edited by Tako (Oct 20 2011 2:24:29 pm)

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Yeah, well, you know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

MIHB

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Don'tya think the judges will have their hands full with the actually good levels? I'm surprised you'd think that any level with stairs or crappy minigames could be considered better than a good level.

But how are they to distinguish good from bad?   The entire point of what I said is that the crappy minigames will not seem crappy to the judges.   To us, crappy minigames are crappy minigames because we've seen the same ones a thousand times over.   These judges will NOT have seen them before, and so those crappy minigames will seem to them like "cool, original" minis.

Effort is extremely obvious.

If the judges can't complete the minigames, then perhaps you should make them easier. Just a suggestion.

Problems solved.

So they are supposed to grade on effort, rather than on how good something is?

And I think your suggestion is pathetic.   It happens to be right, but the fact that it is a reasonable suggestion is a joke.   Dumbing something down for the judges simply displays that the judges are not capable of fulfilling their duties.

Last edited by MIHB (Oct 20 2011 2:27:31 pm)

dominator3000

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

The EX crew is a team there are not judging

Tako

Member

From: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Joined: 2015-08-10

Posts: 6,663

Website

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

I read it, don't worry. I just don't understand how crappy goes to good.

A tight-fit minigame is bad. Even to a stranger it seems bad, I can guarantee it.
Leap-frog minigames are boring. Even a stranger can tell you that.
Stairs are repetitive and tedious. Even a stranger can tell you that.

Just because it seems new to the judges doesn't automatically make it fun, you know. There's a reason we hate them, and I don't think it's because they're unoriginal.

So they are supposed to grade on effort, rather than on how good something is?

And I think your suggestion is pathetic.   It happens to be right, but the fact that it is a reasonable suggestion is a joke.   Dumbing something down for the judges simply displays that the judges are not capable of fulfilling their duties.

I don't think I ever said effort overrules quality. I actually said the exact opposite earlier.

And, that's reality, despite how much you disagree. I'm sorry.

Last edited by Tako (Oct 20 2011 2:35:13 pm)

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Yeah, well, you know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

Shift

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

I want somebody who recognizes the effort put into my art, and who can actually complete the minigames.

Effort is extremely obvious.

If the judges can't complete the minigames, then perhaps you should make them easier. Just a suggestion.

Problems solved.

People who have never played the game wouldn't be able to recognize the difficulty in creating the art. They would, most likely, think it's pretty, but that's it.

Wait, so you wan us to make minigames that the noobliest of noobs can complete? Sorry, but I'm not all that in to stairs.

Anyway, this argument is between you and MIHB, I'll just watch.

RavaTroll

Member

From: France

Joined: 2015-02-16

Posts: 820

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

So you want to restrict players creativity when there's a way not to restrict it ?! This doesn't even fit the game's goal, the thing fun about EE is creativity. If you restrict it you restrict the fun. You said it yourself, repetitive stuff are boring ( so non-creative stuff ), but BEFORE being repetitive and boring, you enjoyed it. BECAUSE it was creative and new. And now, you're saying you want to restrict it by adapting your minis for the judges ? This doesn't make sense to me. And who are they to judge something they doesn't know ? What are their qualifications ? What are their experiences ? Why have they been chosen except because they're Chris's Friends ? Why didn't he asked some random people on the internet to do it ? After all, their opinion wont be biased at all if I use your arguments. What don't we ask an old 90yo guy to judge the game ? His opinion will be new, he will know what is bad and what isn't, etc.

And, yeah, I enjoyed stairs, I enjoyed minis and I enjoyed tight-fit minis when I discovered the game, in the first months. And I'm pretty sure 99% of the players finished at least one stair level, one minis level. And they enjoyed it at the first time.

I tell you TakoMan02, let's try WoW and let us see if you can know what is fun in that game and what isn't. I'm pretty sure you wont be able to judge anything right and you'll find everything fun. If what you're saying is true, then show it to me by playing another game - especially online ones - and going to their forum saying what is good and what isn't. I'm pretty sure everybody on these forums will tell you the same : Your opinion will be   completly biased because you're new. With 10 years of online gaming experience, and hundreds and hundreds of hours browsing various game forum, I happen to know that a new player can't judge a game properly.

EDIT : When I joined EE, I thought making gamesprites was difficult. And it isn't. There's no effort at all in it. How did I learned that ? Because I drawed some gamesprites and I know it was just copying something. It'll be the same.

Last edited by RavaTroll (Oct 20 2011 3:20:48 pm)

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Trolls be in da place, mon !

Chewy

Banned

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

A tight-fit minigame is bad. Even to a stranger it seems bad, I can guarantee it.
Leap-frog minigames are boring. Even a stranger can tell you that.
Stairs are repetitive and tedious. Even a stranger can tell you that.

That's not necessarily true. Even I, who has been playing for a decent amount of time, still fine simple minigames fun. How can you speak for everybody, stranger or not? Everybody is different.

RavaTroll

Member

From: France

Joined: 2015-02-16

Posts: 820

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

That's not necessarily true. Even I, who has been playing for a decent amount of time, still fine simple minigames fun. How can you speak for everybody, stranger or not? Everybody is different.

I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who secretly enjoy minis rooms once in a week.

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Trolls be in da place, mon !

Tako

Member

From: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Joined: 2015-08-10

Posts: 6,663

Website

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Wait, so you wan us to make minigames that the noobliest of noobs can complete? Sorry, but I'm not all that in to stairs.

I can't believe you're that narrow-minded. Stairs are not the only easy minigames known to man.

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Yeah, well, you know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

Chewy

Banned

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Wait, so you wan us to make minigames that the noobliest of noobs can complete? Sorry, but I'm not all that in to stairs.

I can't believe you're that narrow-minded. Stairs are not the only easy minigames known to man.

"I can't believe you're that naive." Jokes aside, he never said stairs were the only nooby minigame, he was simply using stairs as an example. This is a debate. No ad hominem, please.

supadorf24

Member

Joined: 2015-02-26

Posts: 2,675

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Think of it this way.

If I was hiring judges for the Oscars, would I pick a movie buff or someone who's never watched a movie before?

If I found a diamond worth thousands of dollars but didn't recognize the value, could I judge it accurately?

MIHB

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

TakoMan02, you're awfully confident that your perception of the world is the correct one, despite your limited knowledge.   In fact, your arrogance astounds me.

Stairs are repetitive and tedious. Even a stranger can tell you that.

I found them incredibly fun when they were first introduced.   Am I some incompetent fool who was incapable of finding them repetitive and tedious?

Furthermore, if everybody finds them repetitive and tedious, why do so many people play them?

Chewy

Banned

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Think of it this way.

If I was hiring judges for the Oscars, would I pick a movie buff or someone who's never watched a movie before?

If I found a diamond worth thousands of dollars but didn't recognize the value, could I judge it accurately?

I think one of the arguments here is that we don't know if Chris' friends are noobs.

supadorf24

Member

Joined: 2015-02-26

Posts: 2,675

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

That's a good point. For all we know, they could play this game a lot.

Tako

Member

From: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Joined: 2015-08-10

Posts: 6,663

Website

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Look, I value their lack of intellect because it allows them to see levels for what they are without any distractions, expectations or bias. I'm not afraid of a noob level getting into the top 10, because that's just horribly unrealistic. Even if they find these crappy minigames mildly entertaining, that does not reduce the quality of the better levels that will win.

If you think differently, good for you. But I'd stop complaining about reality and get working on the levels, since it seems to be such a challenge to overcome.

TakoMan02, you're awfully confident that your perception of the world is the correct one, despite your limited knowledge.   In fact, your arrogance astounds me.

The irrelevance, it burns!

In all seriousness, if you find me an "astoundingly arrogant idiot", then just ignore me. There's a saying; "Attack the opinion, not the person". Since I'm not a judge, you should really just keep your offensive opinions to yourself. Please.

I'm aware that I'm an arrogant fool, thanks for informing me. Likewise.

Last edited by Tako (Oct 20 2011 3:59:36 pm)

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Yeah, well, you know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

Chewy

Banned

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

If you really think about it, you're bias towards non-noob levels.

MIHB

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

The irrelevance, it burns!

In all seriousness, if you find me an "astoundingly arrogant idiot", then just ignore me. There's a saying; "Attack the opinion, not the person". Since I'm not a judge, you should really just keep your offensive opinions to yourself. Please.

I'm aware that I'm an arrogant fool, thanks for informing me. Likewise.

Ah, good.   I was waiting for you to spout off.

You didn't answer, am I a fool for having enjoyed stairs when they came out?   That was a pretty cutting attack on your argument that any random person can see that stairs are bad.   So you ignored it, because you ignore what you can't defend against.

Think of it this way.

If I was hiring judges for the Oscars, would I pick a movie buff or someone who's never watched a movie before?

If I found a diamond worth thousands of dollars but didn't recognize the value, could I judge it accurately?

I think one of the arguments here is that we don't know if Chris' friends are noobs.

Thats definitely a reasonable argument.   My strong expectation is that they will be mostly unfamiliar with this game, but its possible they might have played it a fair amount.   We'll have to see.

Last edited by MIHB (Oct 20 2011 4:19:44 pm)

Chewy

Banned

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Why do you think that? For all we know the judges are Toby, Peter, etc. since they are friends of Chris.

MIHB

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Why do you think that? For all we know the judges are Toby, Peter, etc. since they are friends of Chris.

It was friends of Chris, not "EE mods".   The info came from RPGMaster, I'm sure he would be aware if Chris wanted to just have the mods do the judging, and I'm sure he would have told us if that were the case, because nobody would be bothered by that.

Chewy

Banned

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

True, but, as always, assume nothing.

MIHB

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

True, but, as always, assume nothing.

fair enough

Tako

Member

From: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Joined: 2015-08-10

Posts: 6,663

Website

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

You didn't answer, am I a fool for having enjoyed stairs when they came out?   That was a pretty cutting attack on your argument that any random person can see that stairs are bad.   So you ignored it, because you ignore what you can't defend against.

How 'bout this: RPGMaster2000 can tell the judges that stairs are very overused.

I didn't respond because the debate is too narrow, which is why I supplied my entire opinion which you seemed to ignore.

Look, I value their lack of intellect because it allows them to see levels for what they are without any distractions, expectations or bias. I'm not afraid of a noob level getting into the top 10, because that's just horribly unrealistic. Even if they find these crappy minigames mildly entertaining, that does not reduce the quality of the better levels that will win.

If you think differently, good for you. But I'd stop complaining about reality and get working on the levels, since it seems to be such a challenge to overcome.

Attack that then I'd be more than likely to respond. When I reply to everything you ask for, we'll keep narrowing and narrowing our debate until we end up discussing why I put an exclamation point at the end of this sentence! And that, will get us nowhere.

Last edited by Tako (Oct 20 2011 4:43:54 pm)

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Yeah, well, you know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

MIHB

Guest

Re: EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

I didn't respond because the debate is too narrow, which is why I supplied my entire opinion which you seemed to ignore.

I merely pointed out that you aren't bothering to address the statements, merely redirecting the argument anytime things don't go your way.   Fairly hypocritical since you say to "attack the opinions".   If you were capable of admitting that you said something that was fundamentally wrong, I'm sure we could have a much more reasonable disagreement.

mustang thinks you should apply to judge gymnastics in the next olympics, and if they deny you based on experience you should sue, cause obviously you are totally qualified to judge, because who needs experience?

I think this is a great idea and wish you well on your new career endeavor.

Last edited by MIHB (Oct 20 2011 4:46:43 pm)