EX Crew supposed to judge Halloween Contest?

Tako · Before February 2015

RavaTroll wrote:

3) I disagree. If you don't know something, you can't tell what is good for it or not. Do you know how to knit ? Do you know what is the best way to knit ? I'm sure you have an idea on how people should knit, and/or what they should do, but since you have no idea of the difficulty, the time it takes, the creativity process, the techniques used, etc, you can't even guess what will be the most impressive sweater in a knit contest. And you'll mostly pick the one the impress you, even if it was made in 1 hour and is terribly easy to do. You can't judge something you don't know.
Let me take another example. You are an architect and you created an awesome concert hall, knowing how the sound works, you made it really nice, with a lot of place for the artists ( dancer, singers, actors, musicians, etc. ). Ok, so there's a dance contest tonight. You know how the sound will "move" inside this place, you know how the scene is made, you know that there'll be music, etc. Well, you wont be judge, even if you have a nice definition of what a good dance is, because you're not a dancer. Anyway, I think I've made my point.

The knitting and architecture examples, you are 100% correct.

However, EE isn't the same case. While it's important to understand some techniques used in a level, they are often irrelevant to its quality. A quality level does not possess anything more than being fun, original, or what the specific judge views as a quality level.

The EX Crew, most likely, has the same expectations as Chris' dev-friends. To be fun, original, and Halloween-themed. Chris' dev-friends know what fun is, don't they? They can tell that playing leap-frog for 10 minutes isn't fun, and they can tell that WELL_'s Weird levels are. In terms of originality, they need only to compare with other contestants to understand what is original and what is not. Anyone can tell apart an original level from one that is not. Halloween-themed is probably the easiest to distinguish, and takes close to no prior knowledge to understand.

So, my question to you is: Do certain qualities that only EX could see define a level for what it is?

RavaTroll wrote:

4) You can do the same with anyone. Even if I don't know them, I know they wont know anything about the game, so I'll avoid hard minis, I'll try making it look noobish and easy because I know they may ragequit if it's too confusing, etc. Just by knowing they don't know the game, I can make a level based on that, with a lot of tricks that makes the level look and play awesome for a newbie without being original.
And that's the point. Originality can't be judged by someone who doesn't know what is normal for a game. And EE is about creativity. Creativity without originality is boring and oftenly bad.

With this in mind, I think it could quite possibly be a good idea to have 1/2 and 1/2. Perhaps 3 of Chris' dev-friends and 3 people from EX.

I know, it sounds like a horrible, pointless idea at first, but hear me out:

1) The levels can't be made to appeal to the judges, because the judges vary greatly.
2) 1/2 of the judging team judges the simplicity, and 1/2 of the team judges the complexity. They both, however, judge on what is fun, original, and Halloween-themed, like I showed to you earlier.

RavaTroll · Before February 2015

EE is a tool used to create platforming level. Like a the concert hall.
What happen inside EE is not coded or something, it's created by users(players) which include artists and designer. Like a musician on the scene designed for him to play on. Blocks and physics are here to help creation, like the instruments of the musician. But if you create a guitar, you can't rate a guitarist level. Again, it's not possible.

Also, I'm pretty sure a guy who never played EE can't play Well's levels and will ragequit in the first minis row, saying "Ok, it's impossible to do this.". That will eventually happen in this contest if the judges aren't good players, they'll ragequit some levels like that and says "It was too hard" when half of the community can go through the levels. That's biased, don't you think ?

Do certain qualities that only EX could see define a level for what it is?

That's not about EX Crew, it has never been about EX Crew. EX crew was chosen because all our member already won at least one contest and RPG thought it was a good idea to ask us.
It's about players being judges.
I don't care if I'm not a judge actually, I'm starting to think I wont, especially if chris doesnt change his mind about those judges. I just want experimented players to be judges to judge the level with all the knowledge they have learned from hours and hours of playing/designing level. Chris can pick good players that are not in EX Crew, I wouldn't mind btw.

And again, you can't be judged for your qualities by someone else than your peers. It's impossible. If you think it's possible, I suggest you start writing some rules about that and start studying justice and stuff.

Last edited by RavaTroll (Oct 19 2011 12:48:38 pm)

Tako · Before February 2015

I understand what you're saying, don't get me wrong. But I can't think of something a player could see in a level that a random stranger can't.

ILoveBacon · Before February 2015

youve probably answered this already but how do you know these guys chris is bringing in for judging are newbies? and how did this roumor start?

AsurcH · Before February 2015

Remember the day you joined ee? Well for mine i started on an open world, an amazing guy was teaching me what i could do there. Then when he left, i started looking up on the list. For a totally unexperienced player, all the stairs, 100 minigames levels were quite fun for me. Because what fun is what you don't see or expect.

For Chris' friends, i'm not sure if they have seen the game, have they? They can judge by art, because they are able to see i suppose, but they will never find out which technique was used, how hard it was or how much times they have spent. For minigames... they will probably think everything goes fun enough, untill they see the same minis in 2 or more groups. Think of only 1 group made a stairs level. Wouldn't that look creative if you have never known the game?

Judges should be wise, neutral and so. For EX Crew members... they are pretty wise and they can be pretty neutral too. Is there any reason not to be? Both Chris' friends and some wise people that know the game can look at the map. But unfortunately looking, seeing and understanding isn't the same thing.

Last edited by AsurcH (Oct 19 2011 1:43:38 pm)

RavaTroll · Before February 2015

patience is key wrote:

youve probably answered this already but how do you know these guys chris is bringing in for judging are newbies? and how did this roumor start?

Newbie or noob is a slang term for a novice or newcomer, or somebody inexperienced in any profession or activity. Contemporary use can particularly refer to a beginner or new user of computers, often concerning Internet activity, such as online gaming[1] or Linux use. [2][3] It can have derogatory connotations, but is also often used for descriptive purposes only, without a value judgment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newbie

They are - because they never played EE - Newbies.
I never said they are terrible players.

But it's ok, people oftenly think calling someone a newbie is the same as saying they are terrible players. We all were newbies, and we all will be newbies one day again.

That's why I don't really like the word "Noob". ( Even if most of the times noobs are terrible players - because there's a learning curve in every game. )

Last edited by RavaTroll (Oct 19 2011 1:53:19 pm)

DK Levels · Before February 2015

Basically, I am really disappointed EX didn't get to judge...
For all the reasons everyone has probably mentioned in parts along this thread

However, today something occurred to me:
Walking to English Language today , I saw we had a supply teacher, not even a supply actually, it was one of those random guys that they hired because other supply teachers were supplying other lessons. So I think "Well this is just great -.-" because I had to write an essay, that day ,which I did not understand after having missed 5 hours of preparation and notes due to being ill. However I did ask for help, and I actually got some pretty good notes, I ended up doing quite well and wrote quite a lot of things.

So, this later got me thinking that maybe Chris's friends, might not be bad judges because, I imagine all of them should be at least over 20, therefore have some common sense and probably checked out the game more than once, if I was asked to judge a game I never played, I would obviously have a look at it for the general idea...
They probably (hopefully) have seen the rules and criteria and had explained what stairs and box mini's are...
They won't be biased because they don't know anyone...

EX is clearly a better pick for judges...
But what I'm trying to get across is that having Chris's friends judge might not be as bad as people think...
If it actually turns out to be bad, then we can all review it and put it towards the next contest to make it better
Not every single contest will be a success, it's good to try new things imo...
And it's not like this is a last contest ever, it's an experience, we can all learn from it

Last edited by DK Levels (Oct 19 2011 2:22:30 pm)

little owl · Before February 2015

it makes me mad when you see there profiles becuse there so nooby i mean play more i would <3 to be a modrator and stuff but they have not rly done much ingame to show how good they are.
°¸°

Tako · Before February 2015

AsurcH wrote:

For Chris' friends, i'm not sure if they have seen the game, have they? They can judge by art, because they are able to see i suppose, but they will never find out which technique was used, how hard it was or how much times they have spent. For minigames... they will probably think everything goes fun enough, untill they see the same minis in 2 or more groups. Think of only 1 group made a stairs level. Wouldn't that look creative if you have never known the game?

How about this: we tell them that stairs are bad levels.

That, combined with some EX members seems the most realistic.

Master1 · Before February 2015

in my opinion, EXcrew SHOULD judge, and SHOULD get all the prizes for it. The reason is, every contest we have their going to win anyways. In my opinion (and many others) their easter level completely sucked (no offence) yet they still won by favoritism. No matter how good or bad their level is, they'll still win this contest and get the prizes anyways.

Plus they would make some epic judges, sense they've been around for a crazy long time and know what makes a level, good.

supadorf24 · Before February 2015

Chris is a great developer. Don't get me wrong. But when it comes to public relations, you may as well be talking to a 2-year-old.

Personally, I think RPG should call off the contest until Chris realizes how stupid he is. I don't want to create an amazing level just so some noob judge will ragequit it and ruin my chance of winning. Whoever earns the prizes will not have earned them at all.

RPG is in charge of running this contest, right? He has the power to end it (I hope).

Tako · Before February 2015

I think we're underestimating these people. They've probably been playing and making games for years, what makes you think they'd ragequit on something as simple as a platformer? They could quite possibly be more skilled than most of us, and they have probably never played the game before in their life.

MIHB · Before February 2015

TakoMan02 wrote:

I think we're underestimating these people. They've probably been playing and making games for years, what makes you think they'd ragequit on something as simple as a platformer? They could quite possibly be more skilled than most of us, and they have probably never played the game before in their life.

Sort of like how Chris is a highly skilled player? He did make this game after all. Of course he couldn't even do a basic climb, but what does that matter. . .

JadElClemens · Before February 2015

Aoitenshi wrote:

shift wrote:
As monkey said, Chris retracted the offer.
ThuggishPrune wrote:
Chris's friends = one big mistake. They don't understand how much work the art and precise minis we make in order to compete. We need someone like that who knows it first hand.
This.
That.

??.

Since I'm not allowed to only write in a foreign language (and it's a simple reply, anyway), this sentence is here. Enjoy!
(Protip: Translator)

Last edited by JadElClemens (Oct 19 2011 8:56:34 pm)

Tako · Before February 2015

MIHB wrote:

TakoMan02 wrote:
I think we're underestimating these people. They've probably been playing and making games for years, what makes you think they'd ragequit on something as simple as a platformer? They could quite possibly be more skilled than most of us, and they have probably never played the game before in their life.
Sort of like how Chris is a highly skilled player? He did make this game after all. Of course he couldn't even do a basic climb, but what does that matter. . .

It's just a possibility. Just using some common sense, a game developer should know how to play games better than a 10yo newbie.

And I've never seen Chris put real amounts of effort into his levels, nor have I seen him play, so I can't say he's a bad player. I think his levels are just random test scribbles.

SmileyZ · Before February 2015

TakoMan02 wrote:

It's just a possibility. Just using some common sense, a game developer should know how to play games better than a 10yo newbie.

Not in Chris's case.
I'm not kidding, did you see him fail RPG's level?
Also, I can't believe I read all 3 pages of this.

Last edited by SmileyZ (Oct 19 2011 9:48:09 pm)

Tako · Before February 2015

SmileyZ wrote:

TakoMan02 wrote:
It's just a possibility. Just using some common sense, a game developer should know how to play games better than a 10yo newbie.
Not in Chris's case.
I'm not kidding, did you see him fail RPG's level?
Also, I can't believe I read all 3 pages of this.

Once again, I've never seen him play.

Ralaina · Before February 2015

I saw him play a Super mario level once, He raged after not even half of it. Entered mod-mode and flew around like a crazy man.

RavaTroll · Before February 2015

TakoMan02 wrote:

I think we're underestimating these people. They've probably been playing and making games for years, what makes you think they'd ragequit on something as simple as a platformer? They could quite possibly be more skilled than most of us, and they have probably never played the game before in their life.

There's a learning curve in every game. You have to understand ( with you feelings and reflexes ) how the physics work before starting learning how to master it. You can't assume they'll master it in 2 weeks, it takes months and a lot of practice to "feel" how your "smiley" will move when you'll press a certain combinaison of keys. It's training, training and training. No one is skilled at a game he just started playing ( Or this game is a terrible game. )
Since EE is an original game, it takes time to "feel" how the arrows work, to instinctively know how much time a key is triggered - some minis are based on keys, with precise timing -, how and when you can speed control, how to double-jump, etc.
Take a look at all "noob levels". Their "hard" parts, for their owners, often are hookjumps. And it takes time to understand how you can make a hook jump, you have to feel the precise moment to press space and the opposite arrow of your direction. It's something you can learn only with practice, since it's mostly based on reflexes. You can't expect a new player to be able to play levels designed by pros - like you and most of the forum's players.

If you want, we can try this : Try WoW with the free version and start a duel with someone - and I bet you'll spend 5 minutes to understand how you can "duel" someone. You'll probably loose, and it's normal. Everybody in WoW - take a look at the official forums - says it's now a game for noobs, it's easy, players just have to open their map, kill X monsters in one location and go back to the quest giver, and it's always the same quests so players learn how to play their character very quickly. Well, guess what, I can spot a newbie in WoW in 2 minutes. And this newbie will mostly have to explore a lot of dungeons to understand how he has to play his character. And then he'll start raids and stuff.
So, you're basically saying that EE is "easy to master" and any new player can learn very quickly how to master the physics. So let's find out if as a new WoW player you can understand as quickly how your character works, what does you character stats mean, how and when you can use which spell, etc. It's exactly the same. And I've started multiplayer games - not only WoW, ofc - more than 10 years ago, and it was and will always be the same. ( Actually, I hope not, I hope one day we'll be able to learn stuff instantly like in Matrix ) And it was the same the 10 years before when I discovered video games. ( FYI I finished Super Mario Land on Gameboy - the big grey one - like 2 years after I bought it, because it was "too hard" - and it actually isn't hard at all )

So, the judges will need at least a month of practice - and it's a minimum - before having enough experience to complete a level. You're underestimating the fact that the human brain has to practice something to understand and master it. Oh, and I've started coding some programs now ( as a beginner ofc ), and I can tell you that you can't really "feel" the gameplay - or what will happen - if you look at the game code, btw.

I hope you can understand that.

( two wiki links for you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_curve && http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_curve_effects )

Mylo · Before February 2015

rava i agree

Tako · Before February 2015

RavaTroll wrote:

...

Like I said, it's just a a possibility that we're under-estimating them.

-----

Chris has said it himself that EE is not his main priority, so I don't expect him to be skilled at it anyway. I'm sure his dev-friends have their game as their main priority.

Even so, I still can't think of something a regular player could see in a level that a random stranger can't.

Effort? Obvious.
Creativity? Make them play the lobby's levels for about 10 minutes and they'll know what a creative level looks like.
Halloween themes? Obvious.

Don't get me wrong, I never supported having a judging team composed entirely out of Chris' dev-friends, because their skill level probably isn't the best. This will leave us with no choice to make easy(er) levels. I think there should be some experienced players as well as some strangers, which will create an interesting challenge to entertain all members -- experts or noobs.

We can't entertain JUST the pros, because the noobs wouldn't like it. Vis-versa, we can't entertain JUST the noobs, because then the pros wouldn't like it. Just entertain both somehow.

Last edited by Tako (Oct 20 2011 8:28:13 am)

SmileyZ · Before February 2015

TakoMan02 wrote:

SmileyZ wrote:
TakoMan02 wrote:
It's just a possibility. Just using some common sense, a game developer should know how to play games better than a 10yo newbie.
Not in Chris's case.
I'm not kidding, did you see him fail RPG's level?
Also, I can't believe I read all 3 pages of this.
Once again, I've never seen him play.

He played RPGMaster2000's halloween update level, which was just two easy minis. The first was just to jump on a block, and he RQ on the second, which was climbing a row of arrows.

RavaTroll · Before February 2015

EDIT : And like I said, you're under-estimating a lot the time it takes to the human brain to master something ( EDIT2 : Especially adults. It takes much more time that for a "kid" - like 12-13 yo.)

A new player will never understand what it is to work 20 hours on a level. We do. It's something they don't know, and therefore can't mesure.
Again, you CAN'T really judge something you don't know, or it'll be completly biased. More than a "player-judge".

This also restrict creativity, because a hard mini can be creative - or just a regular creative mini that needs some practice. If they can't pass it, they can't say if it's creative or not. And restricting creativity in a game made to devellop and use creativity is just silly. It's even against the goal of the game. :/
And you said it yourself, you have to restrict yourself to easy levels. And then you said you have to entertain both pros and noobs. How can you do that if you restrict creativity by having some new players judging them.

This decision of having non-player judges sounds more absurd now.

And I don't get you wrong, don't worry.

BTW, either Chris is ignoring me - which wont be suprising because he did this a lot in the past - either he has no time to spend on EE. You can pick one. But for now, I'm not going to be a judge and there wont be a lot of experienced players in the judging team.

Last edited by RavaTroll (Oct 20 2011 8:45:39 am)

Pike270 · Before February 2015

While I do think the prejudging Chris's friends as automatically being horrible judges are wrong.

It's just that last year there were so many good level and not all of them could make the top spots. Why? Because the judges had an idea in mind of what kind of levels best show EE's full potential. They sought what were looking for and picked out the levels that best represented that.

Remember last year's arguments over unfair judgement? Those were from judges that we did not argue upon. There is a possibility that Chris's friends do not have enough experience in playing and do not know what to look for. It takes experience with the game in order to be able to distinguish the best levels from the really good levels. Chris's friends may or may not (probably not) have that experience and may pick levels that we won't agree with.

Chis might have picked them because they are unbiased. Meaning they have probably never heard of EX, MG, or MX and may possibly not pick those levels as winners if they don't deem those levels worth.

Just some things to consider.

Tako · Before February 2015

Well, let me put it this way: I want a judge that has absolutely no expectations. Regular members? Well, I'm sure they all have precise expectations, and the level to fill their expectations the most gets the trophy. Does that sound fair to you?

I'd rather have a random stranger judge my painting than a professional artist judge my painting. The professional artist, he sees things that a random stranger wouldn't, yes. But I don't want those things to influence his vote, because they're often irrelevant. A stranger? No expectations. They judge the levels with a completely open mind.

I don't want my '20 hours of work' to be judged upon, because anyone can do it. I'd rather have someone judge the level, and nothing but the level in its entirety.

Strangers aren't good at specific things, no, but they're the best at judging things based on initial reactions and overall appearance / fun.

While regular members being the judges sounds practical, it also sounds cliché. Who knows, they might actually be good judges.

There's not much we can do by simply complaining about it, though, so we'll just have to see who wins and how good a judge they are :]

Last edited by Tako (Oct 20 2011 11:00:54 am)

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