My ramblings on 4D

JadElClemens · Before February 2015

Backstory: I recently did loads (my definition of loads, anyway) of reading on 4D and whatnot, so here are my thoughts.

Just a basic description and the geometric shape that typically describes the dimension:
0D: Dot. No L, W, or H. Nonexistant. (IRL, in mathematics it exists. This applies to everything else here)
1D: Line. Either L, W, or H, but only one. Nonexistant.
2D: Square. Any combination of 2: L, W, H. Nonexistant.
3D: Cube. L, W, and H. Exists.
4D: Hypercube or 4-Hypercube (where n = the number of dimensions it has). L, W, H, and a dimension at right angles to all other dimensions.

Now, imagine there's a living, 2D creature on my wall, in a painting. I decide to screw around with him. I stick a nail in the painting. All he sees is a circle, floating in midair. Remember, the 2D creature only has height and length (in front of him, and in this example). He only sees an infinitely small slice of this nail -- the part occupying the space in his infinitely small world (in terms of width). Now, to screw with him further, I take the nail out of his world, pick up his safe, and stick the nail through the safe. We can do this because his safe has no sides to us -- there's no width, remember? Now, this creature is confused. How did we just magically make this floating circle appear in his safe? He can't contemplate the thought of 'left' or 'right', or that we can see through his safe, and everything else in his world. Even him.

A 4D creature does this same thing to us. The nail appears to be a sphere. We can only see the nail's length, width, and height. It can see through us because we have nothing in terms of a fourth dimension. It takes out it's hypernail, and sticks it into our safe. We can't fathom how it did this: The sphere disappeared and appeared in our safe, holding it up.

Now, I have been pondering this. Here are my explanations for a 4D universe's existance and such, in order of most likely to least likely (IMO).

There is no fourth dimension
We are fourth-dimensional beings, somehow.
-can't remember-
We don't exist. Based on the fact that, in a 3D universe, no 0D-2D object can exist, if there were a 4D universe we wouldn't exist, for we're infinitely small in the next dimension.

Note that this is using the fourth dimension as spacial and not as time, as popularized in the theory of spacetime.

Thoughts?

ThuggishPrune · Before February 2015

*stares blankly*
*Drools a bit*
wut?

Gamer1120 · Before February 2015

If you say so...

TrappedTime · Before February 2015

Scientists are actually considering there being a fourth dimension, contrare to what you say.

Why do you think gravity is the weakest force, Mr.Scientist?
"Because in the fourth dimension there is another 3D universe giving off external gravity, and it travels so far away that the gravity in our 3D universe is weak."

This is legit.

----

Comparing 2D with 3D with 4D

I think a lot about this kind of stuff so it's sort of my forte.
(Just recently had this vision)

Think about ghosts. They can walk through walls and other solid objects. This is like a 3D version of 4D living.

-Other thought-
There are 2D creatures living on a 2D piece of paper.(No, not the damn bending the paper crap)
If you drew a transparent cube, showing all 12 edges, you would think it's 3D. The creatures, though, would say it looks 2D.
But what about the diagonals? Don't they constitute the drawing as 3D? to them, still no. Now what if you lifted the cube from the paper, chaning it to 3D. The creatures would be able to travel around the cube, thus agreeing it is in fact a 3D object.

Now imagine a hypercube. We are 3D creatures on 3D paper. A 4D creature draws a transparent hyper cube. To the 4D entitty, it looks 4D. To us, it still looks 3D. Now he drags it across his dimension, thus making it 4D. We can travel across that hypercube, into the fourth dimension, and agree that it too is 4D. You know why? Because of the new edges.

It's nothing theoretical, just another way to think about 2D-3D and 3D-4D.

Bimps · Before February 2015

We don't exist :O? * disappears*

Krazyman50 · Before February 2015

My thoughts on this:
*Brain Short-circuits*

TrappedTime · Before February 2015

LOL, you don't have to comment like that if you don't comprehend it completely.
It's not hard to think about, you're just not trying enough is all

Last edited by TrappedTime (Aug 6 2011 3:18:48 pm)

Twipply · Before February 2015

TrappedTime wrote:

Why do you think gravity is the weakest force, Mr.Scientist?
"Because in the fourth dimension there is another 3D universe giving off external gravity, and it travels so far away that the gravity in our 3D universe is weak."
I think a lot about this kind of stuff so it's sort of my forte.
Think about ghosts. They can walk through walls and other solid objects. This is like a 3D version of 4D living.

Lol.
Just go and read Flatland, assuming it wasn't the inspiration for this post anyway.

TrappedTime · Before February 2015

Ha! I might actually buy that book. I have a big book about math stuff and that book was mentioned. It sounds like a good book from what I've read(reviews).

JadElClemens · Before February 2015

TrappedTime wrote:

LOL, you don't have to comment like that if you comprehend it completely.

I was going to be a bit ruder about it, but that's good, too.

Twipply wrote:

Just go and read Flatland, assuming it wasn't the inspiration for this post anyway.

Actually, it was some site that took its inspiration from flatland (I think).

Here it is

32OrtonEdge32dh · Before February 2015

This makes perfect sense to me. I shall +rep you just for making the most thought out post I've ever seen.

Helvi · Before February 2015

Did you ever look at a hologram image ? It shows your a 3d image on a 2d layer.

Did you thought about reflections of a higher dimensioned subject on a 3d layer? Where does this end? we have 4 dimensions? 3 which describe the space and another one describing time. What if a 5d reflection can be found in a 4d environment?

If you are really interested in such, I advise you to review some beginner stuff about the M-Theory : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory

Good book: http://plus.maths.org/content/universe-nutshell
Uncle Edith sais:

Never say something "cannot" exist

Think of a neutron star at a diameter of 12 miles / 20 kilometer with the mass of almost twice of the sun. It is a really exotic stellar object only topped of black holes (which actually "can" reach a maximum^^)

Last edited by Helvi (Aug 6 2011 7:06:44 pm)

JadElClemens · Before February 2015

Thing is, I'm using the fourth dimension as another spacial dimension, not time. I even stated that in the first post.

Twipply · Before February 2015

Isn't Edith a female name?

Also, try and find me a negative number that's greater than 5. Personally, I say it "cannot" exist.

Helvi · Before February 2015

Prof. Hawkings was calculating that there are 11 dimensions ^^as long as no one else breaks his math I can believe in this. mhm. So there are more than 3 or 4 dims. although we cannot see or sense them in any way. They are there at every point in the universe but "not active" or with Prof Hawkings words "they are rolled up in themself and never expanded like the other known 4 dimensions". So, what do these inactive dimensions?

JadElClemens · Before February 2015

Okay. Assume for a minute that I don't care about any dimensions but our 3 dimensions and a fourth spacial dimension (because I don't) and possibly time. Can we keep the discussion focused on that?

Also, I tend to avoid using math as proof in anything but a mathematical discussion. Mathematically, 0.9999999... Is exactly equal to 1. Common sense tells us that's crap, but that doesn't affect math. Just because something makes sense mathematically doesn't automatically make it true IRL. They also have a mathematical "proof" that there are numbers greater than infinity. I don't have much education on the topic, but the common sense in me called crap on that the minute I heard it.

Last edited by JadElClemens (Aug 6 2011 8:08:47 pm)

Twipply · Before February 2015

Helvi wrote:

Prof. Hawkings was calculating that there are 11 dimensions ^^as long as no one else breaks his math I can believe in this. mhm. So there are more than 3 or 4 dims. although we cannot see or sense them in any way. They are there at every point in the universe but "not active" or with Prof Hawkings words "they are rolled up in themself and never expanded like the other known 4 dimensions". So, what do these inactive dimensions?

So, you just stated that there's more than 3/4 dimensions as a fact, but then say that we can't detect them in any way. Don't say things are true when it's not yet proven to be so.

Pike270 · Before February 2015

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZiROWO6iVs[/youtube]

We have the technology to possibly detect other dimensions throught their gravity. Too bad L.I.S.A. was cancelled (congressional budget cuts).

Last edited by Pike270 (Aug 6 2011 8:16:35 pm)

JadElClemens · Before February 2015

Aww, I was hoping for a larger discussion group than me, Twipply, Helvi (sorta :/) and TrappedTime. Does nobody else understand?

Also, is it okay if I call you twip ?a?n?d? ?s?t?a?l?k? ?y?o?u? ?a?n?d? ?h?a?n?g? ?a? ?p?o?s?t?e?r? ?o?f? ?y?o?u?r? ?n?a?m?e? ?i?n? ?m?y? ?r?o?o?m? ?a?n?d?.?.?.? ?

EDIT:

Pike270 wrote:

We have the technology to possibly detect other dimensions throught their gravity. Too bad L.I.S.A. was cancelled (congressional budget cuts).

Good. We shouldn't be spending money on things that won't impact our practical lives in any way. We're in deep crap already.

Last edited by JadElClemens (Aug 6 2011 8:17:59 pm)

Tako · Before February 2015

This might help some of you understand 4-d more:

Wikipedia wrote:

If a light is shone on a three dimensional object, a two-dimensional shadow is cast. By dimensional analogy, light shone on a two-dimensional object in a two-dimensional world would cast a one-dimensional shadow, and light on a one-dimensional object in a one-dimensional world would cast a zero-dimensional shadow, that is, a point of non-light. Going the other way, one may infer that light shone on a four-dimensional object in a four-dimensional world would cast a three-dimensional shadow.

Last edited by Tako (Aug 6 2011 8:19:43 pm)

JadElClemens · Before February 2015

That's as basic as the GIF of the hypercube spinning, but thanks for your contribution. Piecing all of this together helps me understand it a bit better.

Pike270 · Before February 2015

Good. We shouldn't be spending money on things that won't impact our practical lives in any way. We're in deep crap already

I think you might reconsider the practicality of particle and theoretical physics after watching this:

I know its very long but to me it is fascinating. Its more about technological advances but does contain some parts relating to particle and theoretical physics.

Besides, who wouldn't want to know whether or not we are the only universe. If so, then in an infinite number of universes, you are a mod of this forum. ; )

Last edited by Pike270 (Aug 6 2011 8:28:33 pm)

Tako · Before February 2015

Well I'm obviously not as advanced as you on the subject, but I find that fact very interesting.

JadElClemens · Before February 2015

TakoMan02 wrote:

Well I'm obviously not as advanced as you on the subject

Oh, you.
All I did was read a couple articles, these are almost exact re-tellings of the stuff on the other sites. The alkaline site did have some interesting stuff on bridges and warfare. The bridges part was impossible for me to understand, but the warfare was understandable; it'd just have the added dimension ('upsilon' and it's opposing direction, relatively stupid names IMO) to fight across.

Twipply · Before February 2015

JadElClemens wrote:

Also, is it okay if I call you Twip ?a?n?d? ?s?t?a?l?k? ?y?o?u? ?a?n?d? ?h?a?n?g? ?a? ?p?o?s?t?e?r? ?o?f? ?y?o?u?r? ?n?a?m?e? ?i?n? ?m?y? ?r?o?o?m? ?a?n?d?.?.?.? ?

Sweet, sure.

JadElClemens wrote:

Good. We shouldn't be spending money on things that won't impact our practical lives in any way. We're in deep crap already.

There's a far better place I can think of to take money from than science.

JadElClemens wrote:

Piecing all of this together helps me understand it a bit better.

What are you unsure of in particular? I don't think anything you've said has screamed at me that it's wrong.

Pike270 wrote:

If so, then in an infinite number of universes, you are a mod of this forum. ; )

I hate things like this. If there's an infinite number of universes, that doesn't mean anything you like is true in some of them. Perhaps I have a random, positive number generator. Regardless of how many times it runs, it'll never pick -7.

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