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Twipply

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

So 92% of people in the world shouldn't have their opinions considered? I was pretty sure that we're a democracy.

Our opinions are often only worth as much as our ability to comprehend, evaluate, and generally understand the situation at hand.

xputnameherex

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

So 92% of people in the world shouldn't have their opinions considered? I was pretty sure that we're a democracy.

Our opinions are often only worth as much as our ability to comprehend, evaluate, and generally understand the situation at hand.

You can't seem to comprehend that this is an endless argument.

Last edited by xputnameherex (Apr 25 2012 6:06:32 pm)

Sanguine

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

Miracles in the bible cannot pass as proof in any way since they can a) not be replicated, and b) there's no source that can verify that they actually have happened.

And no, the bible is no source, it's an almost two-thousand year old collection of scripture; there's no evidence that anything in that book has taken place and in fact most of it has been disproven (world being six-thousand years old, creation etc.).

The burden of proof still lies with the theist.

Last edited by Sanguine (Apr 25 2012 6:42:50 pm)

Twipply

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

I quite literally have no idea what just went on in your head while you made that image.   You should honestly feel ashamed that you ever produced such thoughts.

"Atheist: God does not exist." - You started with the atheist, why?   A lack of belief doesn't start a conversation.   The theist must first say that they believe god exists before anything can take place.   It's much the same reason why we don't sit here debating whether my pencil is magical.   No one has ever claimed that it is.

"Wants proof that he does" - Atheism is a lack of belief in a god, that does not mean the atheist wants a proof of god.   Anyone lead by reason, however, may well desire evidence when claims are made.

"Wants proof that he doesn't" - The theist doesn't get to ask for proof god doesn't exist unless someone specifically claims that.   The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim.   However, they may encounter troubles asking for a negative to be proved like that.

"Miracles in the bible for proof" - The bible is not a source of reliable information to even be considered proof.   It's plagiarized, poorly sourced, lacks structure, lacks repeatability, is inconsistent with itself and things we know to be true, and generally fails at almost every category I can think of.

"Illogical, defies science" - Physics, biology, mathematics, chemistry, history, logic, reason, so on so forth.

"Stating simply that he defies science does nothing" - It shows that your belief is illogical / irrational / delusional and thus not worth considering.

"Cannot be proven OR disproven" - No, perhaps not.   However, the christian god as represented in the bible can be disproven beyond all reasonable, and even extraordinary, doubt.
Let's try an alternate, and perhaps far more accurate version:
1)   Theist states or thinks that god exists
2)   Theist is asked why
3)   Theist attempts to validate their opinion
4)   The person questioning either:
  a)   Accepts validity - What the theist says can be taken as truth until new evidence presents itself.   The conversation is over.
  b)   Rejects validity - The evidence provided was deemed insufficient, go to 3)

xputnameherex

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

I quite literally have no idea what just went on in your head while you made that image.   You should honestly feel ashamed that you ever produced such thoughts.

"Atheist: God does not exist." - You started with the atheist, why?   A lack of belief doesn't start a conversation.   The theist must first say that they believe god exists before anything can take place.   It's much the same reason why we don't sit here debating whether my pencil is magical.   No one has ever claimed that it is.

"Wants proof that he does" - Atheism is a lack of belief in a god, that does not mean the atheist wants a proof of god.   Anyone lead by reason, however, may well desire evidence when claims are made.

"Wants proof that he doesn't" - The theist doesn't get to ask for proof god doesn't exist unless someone specifically claims that.   The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim.   However, they may encounter troubles asking for a negative to be proved like that.

"Miracles in the bible for proof" - The bible is not a source of reliable information to even be considered proof.   It's plagiarized, poorly sourced, lacks structure, lacks repeatability, is inconsistent with itself and things we know to be true, and generally fails at almost every category I can think of.

"Illogical, defies science" - Physics, biology, mathematics, chemistry, history, logic, reason, so on so forth.

"Stating simply that he defies science does nothing" - It shows that your belief is illogical / irrational / delusional and thus not worth considering.

"Cannot be proven OR disproven" - No, perhaps not.   However, the christian god as represented in the bible can be disproven beyond all reasonable, and even extraordinary, doubt.
Let's try an alternate, and perhaps far more accurate version:
1)   Theist states or thinks that god exists
2)   Theist is asked why
3)   Theist attempts to validate their opinion
4)   The person questioning either:
  a)   Accepts validity - What the theist says can be taken as truth until new evidence presents itself.   The conversation is over.
  b)   Rejects validity - The evidence provided was deemed insufficient, go to 3)

My chart is a modern day chart, where Atheists are already deeming a god ridiculous, as theists have already deemed a god existent

They want proof so that they can then disprove it.

Atheists do specifically claim that a god does not exist.

Wonderful, you're describing the next step in the chart. Confirmed.

Confirmed.

Go back a step, confirmed.

Can be? Well then, why don't you disprove it then! Revert to the "illogical" step. Confirmed.

Twipply

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

They want proof so that they can then disprove it.

I hope you mean the individual parts of an argument need disproving.   Anyway, this is clearly not the case.   You may be better off saying that they need discrediting.   If you honestly need an example, then consider this:   You had me a piece of paper stating that the solar system has 8 planets.   Can I prove you wrong?   No, I can't.   As a matter of fact, you're actually right.   However, I can point out the complete lack of evidence, empirical or otherwise, and entirely dismiss your claim as unfounded.

Essentially, stop telling me that I need to prove your statement or evidence wrong.   I merely need to discredit.

Atheists do specifically claim that a god does not exist.

Those would likely be gnostic atheists, the majority do not fall into this category.   To those people that claim there is no god, feel free to ask for evidence.   Do not ask me, as I am not one of them.
Other than that, it seems you're just agreeing that a belief in god / christianity is basically stupid.   While I don't understand why you're seemingly happy with that, I can't say I mind.   If people believe something but also realise they're stupid for doing so, I doubt there's a lot more I can do for them.   There's at least some solace in knowing they aren't entirely ignorant, even if I couldn't rid them of it completely.

Tako

Member

From: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Joined: 2015-08-10

Posts: 6,663

Website

Re: Religion and its Impact

So 92% of people in the world shouldn't have their opinions considered? I was pretty sure that we're a democracy.

Our opinions are often only worth as much as our ability to comprehend, evaluate, and generally understand the situation at hand.

You can't seem to comprehend that this is an endless argument.

http://i.imgur.com/oxe8T.png

Here's an interesting video I found, maybe you should watch:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_SFlwjlkiE[/youtube]

Just to understand atheism a little more. Special attention to the first few sentences.

---

Yeah, well, you know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

xputnameherex

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

Other than that, it seems you're just agreeing that a belief in god / christianity is basically stupid.   While I don't understand why you're seemingly happy with that, I can't say I mind.   If people believe something but also realise they're stupid for doing so, I doubt there's a lot more I can do for them.   There's at least some solace in knowing they aren't entirely ignorant, even if I couldn't rid them of it completely.

I've been arguing neutral this entire time, not theist or atheist. The whole point of theism is a belief in a god that defies science, and you say that that is illogical, and the theist says that that is also the point, that a god can defy all logic through his powers. Then you say that that defies science, and the cycle continues.

Chewy

Banned

Re: Religion and its Impact

Why do you guys see the word "religion" and start attacking only Christianity? There are millions of different religions, yet you only attack one, with the same arguments might I add.

North America is approximately 85% christian.   Given that a lot of us here are American, or are European and have to suffer with a fairly large influence from America, it's no wonder that christianity is a focal point.

Why name the topic "Religion..." and not "Christianity..."? The word seems like a subtle, but blatant attack on Christianity.

krubby

Member

Joined: 2015-06-23

Posts: 1,190

Re: Religion and its Impact

twipply's pencil is magic.

xputnameherex

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

twipply's pencil is magic.

You mean keyboard?

krubby

Member

Joined: 2015-06-23

Posts: 1,190

Re: Religion and its Impact

It's much the same reason why we don't sit here debating whether my pencil is magical.   No one has ever claimed that it is.

twipply is a liar.

Sanguine

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

Haha, I don't see how it's subtle, and neither do I see why not mainly christianity, because what goes for christianity goes for all the other detrimental religions as well; they all share the same flawed reasoning and fallacies, promote ignorance instead of open-mindedness and tolerance.

The actual -why- has already been explained earlier in this thread, but I don't mind repeating it this once: We focus on christianity because it's the religion that affects us most. Most of the ppl here are American and christianity is the predominant religion in the American country; it has the biggest impact on our lives out of all of them. With more than 80% of the American populace being christian it should be fairly obvious as to why. Also, the smaller a minority is the more it is usually alienated from the broad mass for differing from that said mass in the first place. Aka, when atheists (or other minorities) suffer from being the outcasts of communities not for doing anything wrong but for not belonging to the "right religion" the credit goes to christianity (at least in our society). They have to bear the ignorance of the broad mass in every conceivable way and it affects them even if they're not situated amidst a christian community: Elections and the resulting policies for example affect the lives of everyone, and the fact that being christian has pretty much become a necessity if you want to be elected president is a pretty sad thing indeed, esp. in a country where state and clergy are supposed to be separated from one another. Furthermore, things like "creationism" being taught in school, which has no basis or foundation other than belief is deemed insufferable for most atheists, who find the idea of their children being led to believe in fairy tales and baseless scripture rather than scientific theories and ideas, which instead of promoting ignorance and blind submission / belief promote critical thinking and open-mindedness, which results in tolerance, a moral code constructed from reasoning and understanding, and our general advancement as a society and as human beings.

Last edited by Sanguine (Apr 26 2012 4:51:32 pm)

Shift

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

Oh, Twipply, Twipply, Twipply. I don't feel like quoting it, but you know that big post you made to bash that chart? Talk about over-analyzing. The chart requires that you have the common sense to figure out that each "want" is desired AFTER the argument is made, in order to substantiate the lack of evidence.

Then about that Miracles in the Bible... YOU'RE REPLY IS EXACTLY WHAT THE IMAGE SAID! Or couldn't you figure that out even after it said that it's "illogical" and "defies science"?

Your "alternate, and perhaps far more accurate version" was what the image portrayed; if you can't see that, then you really ought to learn how to infer based on logic.

Now, go back to the other argument. I'm done here.

Twipply

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

My pencil told you guys to be quiet, as He is not magical.

krubby

Member

Joined: 2015-06-23

Posts: 1,190

Re: Religion and its Impact

My pencil told you guys to be quiet, as He is not magical.

Wait a minute. Twipply referred to his pencil as He. That means... that means his pencil is God. I've got it all figured out! Twipply owns God, making him the most powerful person in the world. Only if people find out that he owns God, they'll come to his house and kill Twipply for Him. The best way to hide this fact is for Twipply to falsely say that God doesn't exist, throwing all suspicion away from him! I've successfully sleuthed this problem. The gig is up, Twipply, I've got it aaaaaaall figured out.

xputnameherex

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

@Sanguine: LOL. Three things here:

1. You're American. And you...think that Christianity is the worst religion for our country. Do I really need to say anymore? Please tell me I don't. Here's a hint: Terrorism. Jihad. Islamism. Ring a bell?

2. Muslims by far receive the most persecution in the US. I don't care what your University of Wisconsin (or whatever you cited) says. Go tell your future wife to go out into town wearing a burka. When she comes back, ask her if she got any strange stares. How many? A lot.

3. Being religious is not a prerequisite for being president. It was often thought that Protestant was the right religion for president. JFK proved this wrong, as he was not Protestant. Furthermore, these Protestant presidents have mostly not been very strict with their religion, often taking no part at all. I admit that it certainly does seem like there is bias here. However, if you Atheists are oh-so smart with everything as you lay claim to, wouldn't you be the best in politics? Wouldn't you be the best candidate, and be picked for the job, even through any bias? (which does exist, but very little, and besides, if an atheist candidate were to even become known, then he/she would receive bias from atheists, most likely. [And not all Atheists, probably a bit over the percentage of Christians who would be biased.])

Though this may be slightly irrelevant, I don't care, its humorous.

@Twipply: ...:O

@Krubby: Lol

Last edited by xputnameherex (Apr 26 2012 5:58:46 pm)

ani

Member

Joined: 2015-02-17

Posts: 649

Re: Religion and its Impact

EE is an atheistic game. Here's my infallible logic:
1. God has 3 letters in His name
2. 3 is a magic number, so God is magic
3. As biologists who focus in the horse family have proven through testing, magic is friendship
4. God is friendship
5. There is no friend system in EE
6. EE is atheistic

Now that that's over with, into the van everyone, we're going to IHOP! Except T. Prune who has been given a time out. Naughty, naughty.

It seems that EE converted, with the friend system and all, yes?

---

ヽ(•‿•)ノ    ❤ ♬ ✩    t u t u r u !~    ✧☁ ☂    ヽ(•‿•)ノ

Twipply

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

1. You're American. And you...think that Christianity is the worst religion for our country. Do I really need to say anymore? Please tell me I don't. Here's a hint: Terrorism. Jihad. Islamism. Ring a bell?

We're European.   While I agree that there'd be worse religions for America, you should know not only the others have terrorist acts: 1 2

2. Muslims by far receive the most persecution in the US. I don't care what your University of Wisconsin (or whatever you cited) says. Go tell your future wife to go out into town wearing a burka. When she comes back, ask her if she got any strange stares. How many? A lot.

Consider that atheism has no outward signs, in clothing or appearance.   The burka, however, is quite plainly visible.   So yes, I agree with you on that, something visible will be looked at more often than nothingness.
As for you ignoring the studies, I can't say I'm surprised.

3. Being religious is not a prerequisite for being president. ...

A real prerequisite?   No.   However, as previous sources cite, atheists are the most distrusted group in the study.   Given this, openly being an atheist in politics is suicidal enough to essentially make christianity a prerequisite.   Atheism could potentially lose you 39.6% of the vote instantly.   Strangely, atheists seemingly have superior knowledge of religion compared to other religious groups.   They're distrusted in comparison for not believing, and yet know more about the religion of those distrusting them than they do.

However, if you Atheists are oh-so smart with everything as you lay claim to, wouldn't you be the best in politics?

Atheism alone does not make you smart.   As previously mentioned in this topic, a lack of believe in god is the default position and requires no effort to arrive at.   There will be a great many intelligent people who hold this position, and a great many foolish ones.   However, someone that rejects the world's religions through basic critical thought, logic, and the like will indeed be a better candidate on average than a religious person.   The ability to think rationally is an important one.

Last edited by Twipply (Apr 27 2012 6:32:18 am)

Sanguine

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

Done arguing with you, xputnameherex. Feels like such a waste of time.

Ty Twippley for picking that up.

Last edited by Sanguine (Apr 27 2012 6:26:36 am)

xputnameherex

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

@Twipply: 1. Sanguine is American, I was responding to him. (I'm pretty sure he is, at least. If he's not I'll be surprised.)
And yes, I understand Abortion Clinic Attacks and am quite upset with the people responsible, just as if they were of any other religion.

2. Can you say that you are not surprised because you also would not take that one studies word, or that you think I ignore facts? I've honestly never heard of any Atheist persecution where I live, but I have heard multiple accounts of Muslim persecution.

3. What I'm saying is that I've never even heard of an Atheist candidate. They would have to become a legitimate candidate before becoming known to the people.

Are you saying that Theists think irrationally everywhere instead of just in religion (go back to my chart!)?

Last edited by xputnameherex (Apr 27 2012 2:23:27 pm)

Sanguine

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

Twipply was quite right, I am European; German, to be more precise. How my nationality matters eludes me.

xputnameherex

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

Twipply was quite right, I am European; German, to be more precise. How my nationality matters eludes me.

My mistake, from the content of your posts I assumed you were American. Still, you would be enlightened to know that Islam Extremism poses a MUCH larger threat than anything else here in the US, and most other countries in the Western World, which I would think would include Germany.

Sanguine

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

I don't fall for propaganda which aims at inciting hatred and fear in it's populace just so it can be kept from thinking straight. Concerning the threat of terrorism I have found a nice little chart for you.

http://firedoglake.com/2009/12/29/terro … almonella/

Twipply

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

2. Can you say that you are not surprised because ...

Not surprised at you ignoring evidence due to previous statements.

Are you saying that Theists think irrationally everywhere instead of just in religion (go back to my chart!)?

Everywhere?   No, of course not.   Are theists more likely on average to think irrationally than those who deny the validity of religion?   Yes, I would suspect so.

Islam Extremism poses a MUCH larger threat than anything else here in the US

Health care, obesity, drug laws, criminals, politicians, etc.