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Shift

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Re: Religion and its Impact

I knew I should have deleted that part; here comes another argument!

Well, I just edited it to be more specific. Happy?

Tako

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Re: Religion and its Impact

Scientific theories are at least built of pure fact, from which springs assumptions. Religion, assumptions just spring out of nowhere.

To answer WELL_'s concern, the Bible is more than a book. I do indeed admire it's moral authority in the world - although I do not worship it. I rarely read it because I believe moral intelligence is self-defined. It's what makes you who you are.

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Yeah, well, you know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

supadorf24

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Re: Religion and its Impact

god is rel bcuz my paretns told me he was rel n i red a book about him. plus y else wud we hav x-mas??????

Twipply

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Re: Religion and its Impact

... Is this necessary? Was it really worth your time to waste two lines of text?

Yes.   It amused me.

If you believe in the big bang, then why can't somebody else believe in God? You accept science because it's widely accepted by science. Others accept religion because it's widely accepted by religion.

The key difference here being the demands each has before accepting something.   For science, that includes such wonderful things as facts, evidence, reason, argument, and review.   I accept what the scientific community widely accepts because to do anything else would be quite truly absurd.

The rest

faceplant

Last edited by Twipply (Jan 24 2012 4:43:11 pm)

Zoey2070

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From: Shakuras

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Re: Religion and its Impact

Why do you believe what you believe?
If I told you that 'everything [except this statement] you know is false', would you believe me? Probably not.
If I proved to you that everything you previously believed was false, then would you believe me? Or would you automatically reject it as a defense mechanism?

Why do Christians honestly, completely and utterly believe that God is real and that Jesus Christ is your savior? They have a book as proof. A large book written in Hebrew that has been translated and mistranslated and manipulated throughout the ages. Is it still as credible as it was when it was first written, if it ever was credible?
What causes people to turn their back on religion, but then accept it once again?

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Shift

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Re: Religion and its Impact

Yes.   It amused me.

Lol k

I accept what the scientific community widely accepts because to do anything else would be quite truly absurd.

I accept what the <insert religion here> community widely accepts because to do anything else would be quite truly absurd.

I'm not trying to say that either side is right; I'm trying to get you to see both sides of the argument.

faceplant

... I don't know where to go from here. I could direct you back to that response in my previous reply, but you're not giving me much to work with.

Anyway, my point is that you need to see both sides of the argument. Science is backed by a subsection of itself (logic), and religion is backed by a subsection of itself (the holy book for <religion>).

Just out of curiosity, Twipply, what do you think will happen after you die? Personally, I have no idea. You, however, seem to be set on science, which only predicts decomposition. Not very fun.

@Zoey2070: We're debating philosophy, and, therefore, you can't just say that it probably isn't true. You need to prove that it can't be.

Last edited by Shift (Jan 24 2012 7:18:15 pm)

Twipply

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Re: Religion and its Impact

I'm not trying to say that either side is right; I'm trying to get you to see both sides of the argument.

I can quite easily see both sides.   I can also see the distinct lack of anything of worth backing up the other.

Just out of curiosity, Twipply, what do you think will happen after you die? Personally, I have no idea. You, however, seem to be set on science, which only predicts decomposition. Not very fun.

That does sum it up, yes.   Scientific truths do not change just because we'd like them do.

krubby

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Re: Religion and its Impact

Civilization would collapse without religion.

Shift

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Re: Religion and its Impact

I'm not trying to say that either side is right; I'm trying to get you to see both sides of the argument.

I can quite easily see both sides.   I can also see the distinct lack of anything of worth backing up the other.

-.-'

You say you side with logic and science, yet all you do is spout opinions and avoid proof! If you can't see a reasonable argument for one of the two sides, then you can't see both sides of the argument.

Just out of curiosity, Twipply, what do you think will happen after you die? Personally, I have no idea. You, however, seem to be set on science, which only predicts decomposition. Not very fun.

That does sum it up, yes.   Scientific truths do not change just because we'd like them do.

I believe you just avoided my question. Yes, you believe that there can't be anything after life except your body's decomposition?

Twipply

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Re: Religion and its Impact

If you can't see a reasonable argument for one of the two sides, then you can't see both sides of the argument.

Or more likely I can see the other side well enough to note the lack of reasonable argument.

I believe you just avoided my question. Yes, you believe that there can't be anything after life except your body's decomposition?

The "yes" was in reference to decomposition.   There is of course uncertainty in that, but it is very marginal indeed.

Civilization would collapse without religion.

Prove it.

Last edited by Twipply (Jan 25 2012 3:23:44 pm)

krubby

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Re: Religion and its Impact

Religion is false, but necessary.

Tako

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Re: Religion and its Impact

I was 'discussing' what the world would be like without religion, and my 'friends' simply replied: "Uh, we'd all be living in caves."

This statement naturally provoked my next question: "What makes you say that?" "Well, if God never gave us a brain then we wouldn't have progressed any." I end the conversation here for I am clearly defeated by logic.

It made me wonder: Why do people cling so closely to religion - close enough to say it's not only needed for their survival, but for the welfare of the human race? Moral guidelines are indeed very important, only a fool would doubt that. But to say that a religion is the only thing that prevents humanity from going from decent to trash?

One might argue "The Bible is famous for its moral guidelines, and thus is crucial."

Well yes, thankfully. But an important snag, the Bible is not humanity's only source of moral guidelines. It's called a 'brain', more specifically your 'conscience'. Your conscience, for those who don't know, is in sorts the moral chief in your brain. It weighs fact and comes up with opinions; it's where good and bad decisions are made.

The brain, paired with taught moral intelligence, is the very thing that cures diseases, the very thing that saves lives, the very thing that allows you to walk in a straight line - how dare someone possibly say that it is not enough to survive in a world of uncertainty? How could one dare to even consider that we are dependent on a book written well over 2000 years ago, and was influenced greatly by the very religions that you consider to be complete trash - like Greek polytheism, like Egyptian polytheism, like Norse polytheism! Open your eyes; hear the cries of freedom in the Middle East; I want you to see the starvation and disease in Africa! How could thinking "Please help them!" in your mind possibly be the moral action in such a situation. Hell, why do missionaries even exist - all you need is faith! Just wave a wand and mountains will move! The blind will see!

I'm so glad I'm saved from the evil atheists who don't have any intelligence.

BIBLE4EVER

Last edited by Tako (Jan 25 2012 4:48:51 pm)

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Yeah, well, you know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

krubby

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Re: Religion and its Impact

Alright. First off let's just make it clear; no sane atheist should be happy to be one. I'm frickin scared out of my mind, and wish deeply that I could believe in God and stuff, but I can't. Here's what I have to look forward to when I die; I'm (theoretically) old. One day I'm weak and in a hospital or nursing home. I close my eyes to sleep and the universe basically vanishes. I have no thoughts, there is no time, all my memories and things I cared about are gone. And it never ends. Imagine if everyone in the world knew that everything would be gone once they died. Not only that, there isn't any Bible or anything to give them morals. Who gives a sh** about being a good person if it won't make any difference once you die. You might as well steal anything you want and do whatever you want without any regard for how it effects others. Pretty horrifying, eh? Religion gives people hope for after they die, without the horrible unending fear. Not only that, they're given motivation to be good people, and do things for the good of society.

A world with religion is better than a world without it.

Last edited by krubby (Jan 25 2012 8:29:14 pm)

Twipply

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Re: Religion and its Impact

This is stupid.

Alright. First off let's just make it clear; no sane atheist should be happy to be one.

Hypothetical situation:   I was once religious, now I'm not.   Shouldn't I be happy that I'm free?

I'm frickin scared out of my mind

Scared of something out of your control or knowledge, seems unreasonable.

Imagine if everyone in the world knew that everything would be gone once they died. Not only that, there isn't any Bible or anything to give them morals.

Seems like everything is going fine in my country, even with the morals we didn't get from the bible.   Did you have something else in mind?

Who gives a sh** about being a good person if it won't make any difference once you die.

Everything I do impacts the world and those around me in at least a very small way.   My entire life from start to finish has made a difference in some way.   Those I influence while alive will effect the world while I am gone.

[The rest]

Based upon a faulty start, thus worthless.

A world with religion is better than a world without it.

I've yet to see you tell me why.

BEE

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Re: Religion and its Impact

Alright. First off let's just make it clear; no sane atheist should be happy to be one. I'm frickin scared out of my mind, and wish deeply that I could believe in God and stuff, but I can't. Here's what I have to look forward to when I die; I'm (theoretically) old. One day I'm weak and in a hospital or nursing home. I close my eyes to sleep and the universe basically vanishes. I have no thoughts, there is no time, all my memories and things I cared about are gone. And it never ends. Imagine if everyone in the world knew that everything would be gone once they died. Not only that, there isn't any Bible or anything to give them morals. Who gives a sh** about being a good person if it won't make any difference once you die. You might as well steal anything you want and do whatever you want without any regard for how it effects others. Pretty horrifying, eh? Religion gives people hope for after they die, without the horrible unending fear. Not only that, they're given motivation to be good people, and do things for the good of society.

A world with religion is better than a world without it.

You forget one key aspect, and the reason I am a teacher:

The butterfly effect.

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krubby

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Re: Religion and its Impact

Try to imagine not complete darkness, but complete intangible nothing. No time, it's perfect nothingness. The entire universe is as good as gone to you, you'll never have a sense of awareness again. It's hard to imagine, but try to imagine where time doesn't exist and it never ends, ever. Pretty F***ing scary, huh? Death is something frightening that no sane person should look forward to if they have no afterlife in store for them.

Last edited by krubby (Jan 26 2012 12:23:51 am)

RPGMaster2000

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Re: Religion and its Impact

Try to imagine not complete darkness, but complete intangible nothing. No time, it's perfect nothingness. The entire universe is as good as gone to you, you'll never have a sense of awareness again. It's hard to imagine, but try to imagine where time doesn't exist and it never ends, ever. Pretty F***ing scary, huh? Death is something frightening that no sane person should look forward to if they have no afterlife in store for them.

So you would rather embrace something untrue and irrational simply because it makes you feel better? The reason that we are atheists is because we are far more interested in the pursuit of truth and giving ourselves our own purposes instead of blindly believing whatever makes us feel good inside.

Being an atheist is not something that makes my life hollow, but quite the opposite. Instead of putting a sticker on every new discovery that says "God did it", I'm much more receptive to the immense wonders of the universe that we have discovered, or have yet to discover. It saddens me that you don't have the strength to fight your fear of death, but it can be done. I view death as part of an ongoing process to make way for new life on Earth, nothing more and nothing less.

I don't think anyone is looking forward to death, but it's utterly pointless to us to be frightened of it as well. All that would do is diminish the incredibly valuable time that we have left on this Earth since there won't be another chance to come back to it, no second chances at another life.

Zoey2070

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Re: Religion and its Impact

Try to imagine not complete darkness, but complete intangible nothing. No time, it's perfect nothingness. The entire universe is as good as gone to you, you'll never have a sense of awareness again. It's hard to imagine, but try to imagine where time doesn't exist and it never ends, ever. Pretty F***ing scary, huh? Death is something frightening that no sane person should look forward to if they have no afterlife in store for them.

I've been trying to imagine what death is like for a long while, ever since I was little. I wanted to experience death, to see what that moment of losing yourself is like. When your brain shuts down. And then there's nothing beyond that. Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It just stops. Bam. Suddenly. You don't realize there's nothing, because you can't realize anything because you have absolutely no sense of anything because you're dead.
I always knew there was nothing beyond that point. It's like that Greek myth thing. With the Fates. Atropos. She cuts the string. That's what life is like. A string that is wound up and never unwound, and then it's just suddenly cut. It's actually pretty accurate, metaphorically, I think. Good way to describe it.

I've also been wondering with endless curiosity what death is like. I want to experience that moment, that moment that's the scissors touching the thread. The snipping of the thread, the millisecond in which you're gone forever.
You could almost say that I look forward to it. I'm not exactly that sound of mind. I want to die. I want to experience my own death.
But you know what? I decided that it would be pointless to end it early just to end it. So I'm going to live out my life and then my last curosity will be filled when I die.
Except it wouldn't really be filled because I wouldn't be able to recognize that moment of dieing, nor would I even know I was experiencing it. So it would be even more pointless to die early because that would be stupid because it would have accomplished absolutely nothing but to hurt anyone I ever knew, and take a decision away from anyone I'll ever impact in the history of my entire life.
Death isn't frightening. Why should it be?

---

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krubby

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Re: Religion and its Impact

Try to imagine not complete darkness, but complete intangible nothing. No time, it's perfect nothingness. The entire universe is as good as gone to you, you'll never have a sense of awareness again. It's hard to imagine, but try to imagine where time doesn't exist and it never ends, ever. Pretty F***ing scary, huh? Death is something frightening that no sane person should look forward to if they have no afterlife in store for them.

So you would rather embrace something untrue and irrational simply because it makes you feel better? The reason that we are atheists is because we are far more interested in the pursuit of truth and giving ourselves our own purposes instead of blindly believing whatever makes us feel good inside.

Being an atheist is not something that makes my life hollow, but quite the opposite. Instead of putting a sticker on every new discovery that says "God did it", I'm much more receptive to the immense wonders of the universe that we have discovered, or have yet to discover. It saddens me that you don't have the strength to fight your fear of death, but it can be done. I view death as part of an ongoing process to make way for new life on Earth, nothing more and nothing less.

I don't think anyone is looking forward to death, but it's utterly pointless to us to be frightened of it as well. All that would do is diminish the incredibly valuable time that we have left on this Earth since there won't be another chance to come back to it, no second chances at another life.

facepalm.avi
If you read my above posts, you would see I'm an atheist too. I happen to be getting a degree in science. I want to discover the mysteries of the world, even if it's an unhappy truth! I savor every moment of life and enjoy it because I'm afraid of what I'll lose if I don't.

@Tako That's really dumb saying that life just means suffering. There is so much in the world that is simply amazing and   perfect. There is unhappiness in the world, but really, that makes everything better. It's living. It's seeing the wonders, enjoying the good parts of life and persevering through the bad. It just scares me and saddens me knowing that not only will it end, but I won't be able to remember what I did do.

Heh, reading over my posts on this, I can just imagine how it would sound if I was drunk at the time while making these posts.

Tako

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Re: Religion and its Impact

Allow me to clarify: attachment to your life will make your whole life miserable. And that's that.

Enough of this death crap, I recommend you visit your guidance counselor or therapist if you still have troubles with your personal life.

I believe I ended with the Bible being as required for the human race as Dr. Phil, anyone disagree?

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Yeah, well, you know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

krubby

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Re: Religion and its Impact

Allow me to clarify: attachment to your life will make your whole life miserable. And that's that.

Enough of this death crap, I recommend you visit your guidance counselor or therapist if you still have troubles with your personal life.

I believe I ended with the Bible being as required for the human race as Dr. Phil, anyone disagree?

A. Attatchment to my life makes me savor every moment of it, even though there's a chronic fear at the back of my head
B. If you were reading some of my above posts, I was saying how the bible is important to humanity.

WELL_

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Re: Religion and its Impact

I am not really following this whole discussion, hence I am not entirely sure who is trolling and who is not, but you could you please tell me why si bible so important and required? (anyone who thinks so)

Shift

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Re: Religion and its Impact

Or more likely I can see the other side well enough to note the lack of reasonable argument.

That assumption is logically unreasonable. Seriously, are you sure you want to side with logic? You don't seem to know much about it.

The "yes" was in reference to decomposition.   There is of course uncertainty in that, but it is very marginal indeed.

This goes for you, RPGMaster2000, and any others who stand by this that I can't remember: I feel sorry for you. If you believe that there can't possibly be anything good left for you in a few years, then you must lead very sad lives. It's like Pandora's box- if Foreboding had escaped, then mankind would know about all the troubles it would face, and, consequently, lose the will to live. You argue that it allows you to live your life fuller, but only by taking full credit for your achievements. Can't a religious person do the same without revoking long term happiness?

Hypothetical situation:   I was once religious, now I'm not.   Shouldn't I be happy that I'm free?

A religious person would argue that religion frees him. Since neither of you applied any logic comparing the other to slavery, you're both equally wrong. Honestly, Twipply, you need to use the rules you're trying to defend.

Seems like everything is going fine in my country, even with the morals we didn't get from the bible.

You obviously don't live in the United States. Or most other countries.

Everything I do impacts the world and those around me in at least a very small way.   My entire life from start to finish has made a difference in some way.   Those I influence while alive will effect the world while I am gone.

Apparently you didn't read his argument. Mankind is selfish by nature. If your actions won't impact you in the long term, then what would stop you from doing whatever you want, or whatever will ensure your happiness? Sometimes, your happiness costs that of others, but why would that stop you? You dodged his point.

Allow me to clarify: attachment to your life will make your whole life miserable.

Are you saying you're miserable, or you're not attached to your life? I'll need some proof before I can believe that; if you don't care about your life, then end it. I doubt you can do that, though, and so you are, in fact, attached to your life. Therefore, you're saying you're miserable; religion could help you.

That may appear somewhat illegal; to clarify, I was sarcastically urging you in order to prove a point, not to convince you to do it.

I am not really following this whole discussion, hence I am not entirely sure who is trolling and who is not, but you could you please tell me why si bible so important and required? (anyone who thinks so)

Just saying, I don't think you applied that question to anyone in the argument. I, for one, am just arguing to equalize the two theories.

Okay, I'm really sick of this argument. We'll all find out the truth after we die, whether we can consciously acknowledge it or not. Until then, it's just a matter of opinion. We're all too stubborn to be convinced of another possible view, so what's the point of all this? You guys will continue arguing that science is the only way, and I'll continue arguing that the theories are equally plausible. Done? Done. I'm pretty sure all of my questions were rhetorical, so can we finally drop this? We're not getting anywhere.

Who knows? Maybe in another 1000 years, our descendants will be arguing whether the flying laser carrot or the ceiling cat is correct.

And because I said that, I have to post this:

Tako

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From: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

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Re: Religion and its Impact

Allow me to clarify: attachment to your life will make your whole life miserable.

Are you saying you're miserable, or you're not attached to your life? I'll need some proof before I can believe that; if you don't care about your life, then end it. I doubt you can do that, though, and so you are, in fact, attached to your life. Therefore, you're saying you're miserable; religion could help you.

That may appear somewhat illegal; to clarify, I was sarcastically urging you in order to prove a point, not to convince you to do it.

I can't show you any numbers of this, hopefully an example will suffice.

Reason number one: Considering an entire religion dedicated to spiritual enlightenment has been built off the Four Noble Truths, I wouldn't be so fast to shoot it down (Buddhism). And if you want to shoot down the entire Buddhist religion, plan to talk for a long time on a different topic.

Rephrased for clearer understanding: The closer you get to something, the harder it is to lose it. Life is one of those things you will lose, and unfortunately your brain knows it. This doesn't mean you have to love your life as if it would end tomorrow, and it doesn't mean you need to commit suicide. This is called the Noble Eightfold Path. Find a good medium of happiness (hedonism) and self-cessation (in short, miserable).

Krubby, from what it appears, is 100% self-cessation and doesn't notice what's in front of him.

(Honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about after that. I'd suggest working on minimizing in-text punctuation and unneeded words. It's almost like diluting a sentence's meaning.)

But like I said earlier, death is a personal feeling and has absolutely nothing to do with the validity of religious teachings. I would appreciate it if we discontinue this topic or make a new thread.

Last edited by Tako (Jan 28 2012 9:54:02 am)

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Yeah, well, you know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

Ratburntro44

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Re: Religion and its Impact

We'll all find out the truth after we die, whether we can consciously acknowledge it or not. Until then, it's just a matter of opinion.

I can only hope that the Programmer was nice enough to program some sort of afterlife. Or at least have copies of everyone (or maybe backups of the server) that could be used to create one in the future. Of course, time probably passes slower in higher universes, so our simulation may have only been around for weeks. I would guess more, but I wouldn't know.