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32OrtonEdge32dh

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Re: Religion and its Impact

Quick irrelevant thing: I am an atheist (as evidenced by my avatar).   I believe that there was a Jesus, and he was crucified.   But the whole magic tricks part is totally unbelievable.

Regarding the topic itself, I only read the first page, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that this will just devolve into one side spouting logic, and the other going "LALALALALA   CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALA".   Happens every time.

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Cyclopsicle

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

Could you tell me how this theory was proven false?

Well, people have been to the top of mount olympus and have found a surprising lack of gods and prestigious temples. Jesus defied physics in numerous ways. If someone chooses to believe in that then that's a different story. That's like slapping logic in the face and running away :0

Okay, so your proof is the lack of proof? My teacher once said, "Myths aren't lies. They're just what people believed." Science is a religion, technically, since it is what so many people have decided to put their faith in. Science, Jesus, Zeus, Odin, Horus, Utu, etc are all equally valid.

No. Science is about observable facts that can be proven.

Jaybm

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

Well, people have been to the top of mount olympus and have found a surprising lack of gods and prestigious temples. Jesus defied physics in numerous ways. If someone chooses to believe in that then that's a different story. That's like slapping logic in the face and running away :0

Okay, so your proof is the lack of proof? My teacher once said, "Myths aren't lies. They're just what people believed." Science is a religion, technically, since it is what so many people have decided to put their faith in. Science, Jesus, Zeus, Odin, Horus, Utu, etc are all equally valid.

No. Science is about observable facts that can be proven.

No. Since how the world came to be or the age of the world is still not 100% proven, your putting your faith into Science, (which is still more "believable" to some people) like people put faith into religion. Yes, a lot of science is facts that can be proven, but not all of science (or logic or whatever).

Last edited by Jaybm (Jan 20 2012 3:01:33 pm)

RPGMaster2000

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

Okay, so your proof is the lack of proof? My teacher once said, "Myths aren't lies. They're just what people believed." Science is a religion, technically, since it is what so many people have decided to put their faith in. Science, Jesus, Zeus, Odin, Horus, Utu, etc are all equally valid.

No. Science is about observable facts that can be proven.

No. Since how the world came to be or the age of the world is still not 100% proven, your putting your faith into Science, (which is still more "believable" to some people) like people put faith into religion. Yes, a lot of science is facts that can be proven, but not all of science (or logic or whatever).

No... just no. *palmface*

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/science

Science, by definition, has absolutely nothing to do with faith. Zero, zilch, nada. A scientific theory is, for example, the absolute highest possible status that an idea can attain. What most people fail to differentiate between are two words, namely theory and hypothesis, the latter being what most religious folks believe most theories actually are.

Gravity is a scientific theory. It is demonstrable, it is falsifiable, it has overwhelming amounts of proof and evidence and is thus accepted all around the world as an established fact by peer-reviews from other scientists. Do we require faith to know that this is true? Absolutely not, and it is dishonest to even insinuate such a thing because it is demonstrable, just like evolution for instance. Under laboratory conditions, biologists have indeed observed micro-evolution countless times, something that most religious people react to by shrugging at off as something that requires faith to believe. It doesn't, it never has and it never will because it deals strictly with facts. The data never lies and it is there clear as day, so no leap of faith is ever required from us.

It is insulting to even put science in the same category as the deities that you listed, because science is not a faith, it is the very foundation of modern society that allows us to have this high standards of living that you enjoy today. Computers, phones, medicine, vehicles, space travel, light bulbs, the wheel, USB powered refrigerators and the list goes on. Every single one of these things were created not by Jesus, not by Zeus, but by science, every single time.

In short, science works because it deals with the real world by gathering data through rigid testing in laboratory conditions as well as going out and studying our planet. Lumping it together with religions that, by definition, want you to completely suspend critical thinking and your ability to accept new and well-established scientific theories because it contradicts your dogma is nothing short of insane. You just can't do that at all.

You are entitled to your own opinion, that much is true. Just remember that you are not entitled to your own facts.

Tako

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From: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Joined: 2015-08-10

Posts: 6,663

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Re: Religion and its Impact

Well TGT, it appears you have the misfortune of coming in right in the middle of the conversation.

To refresh your and everyone else's memory, I ask you:
Do you think that these 'miracles', or direct defying of physics are simply an epic meant to teach lessons and were not meant to be taken verbatim?

If you reply "yes" than I do not have a single problem with what you believe in.

Please, don't misunderstand. I do not wish to involve faith into this, only the miracles that some people believe to be truth and their outlandishness. Like I've said several times, Trinity? Completely fine. Feeding 5000 people with 1 fish and 2 loafs of bread? What? Completely flooding the Earth and exterminating all human life except for 5 people? What?

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Yeah, well, you know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

Ratburntro44

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Joined: 1970-01-01

Posts: 1,383

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Re: Religion and its Impact

I would like to comment that I just read a Scientific American article that would suggest that the universe is completely bits and operates like a computer, which would back up my belief that the universe is a computer simulation.

TheGreenTroll

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

Part 1 & 2

If I still doesn't ignore science, logic, reason, experiment and facts, what am I then? I'm religious, and I do still believe in those things.

There are some questions, that doesn't have an answer. I'm sure that you can agree on that. For example, the big-bang theory is still a theory, it isn't proven yet. To believe in that something greater, as a God, created the universe while ignoring the points you've mentioned, is ignorant, yes of course. It is science, by the terms we know as science. Still, I find it as ignorant to blatantly dismiss the theory that a creator, or God, created all life. After all, science can't tell us what really created the universe, and to dismiss one theory before another, without any actual rock solid proof for each theory, is in my book ignorant. I'm open-minded about both theories. I believe that there is a God, but I do not deny science, logic, reason, experiment nor facts. This is more a question about philosophy than science. Since we really doesn't know what actually created the universe, it could be God that created everything, including science and such, or it could have happened without any greater being.

I myself has just finished semester at univeristy, and I study a subject that is based on science, and I'm completely comfortable with it. I can't see how this would affect my believe in God, since I believe that God created it.

Part 3

I'm sorry that I was so absolutely in my post, the church do of course influence people. But I believe that you have to look at what kind of church it is. In my opinion, the USA has much bigger problem with christian fundamentalists than European countries. Religion can be formed into a ideology, as extreme or moderate as any other political ideology could be. That was what I meant with "most extreme instances". The church I've been to, and many other churches in Sweden and Europe is very moderate and aware of the values of todays society, therefore, the will of one or several priests doesn't have much influence over those whom visits the church.

By the way, I hope you don't take too much offence to the comments about ignorance.   I doubt anyone is above such things, myself obviously included.   Maybe not often about such fundamental things as the ability to reason, but still a great many things.

No, I'm not offended at all. As you say yourself, noone is above ignorance (except God lololol).

Twipply

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

I had assumed early on that your concept of god is that of one of the more major religions around today, as that was probably the most likely thing.   However, I'm not sure any more.   If that isn't actually the case, please do explain and maybe I'll happily retract claims of ignorance from you.

I think one of the few ways to reconcile religion with science, reason and the rest is to basically strip god down to a creator status and that's about it.   There can be no watching over us with total knowledge, power or anything else.   I still don't see how it's probable, but it sits far better with me.

I'm sorry that I was so absolutely in my post, the church do of course influence people. But I believe that you have to look at what kind of church it is. In my opinion, the USA has much bigger problem with christian fundamentalists than European countries. Religion can be formed into a ideology, as extreme or moderate as any other political ideology could be. That was what I meant with "most extreme instances". The church I've been to, and many other churches in Sweden and Europe is very moderate and aware of the values of todays society, therefore, the will of one or several priests doesn't have much influence over those whom visits the church.

The catholic church itself was what I really meant in particular.   I'm sure there's plenty of nice ones that teach all about loving and other wonderful things.   If that describes the one you've been to, then I'm glad for that at least.   Not all of them are bad of course, I guess it's just unfortunate that the one with the most influence truly is.   And yes, I'm sure it's a far bigger problem for America than Europe, but don't forget that America has a fair bit of influence over a lot of countries.   Their problems can easily become the problems of someone else.

SilverStar

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Joined: 2015-07-01

Posts: 541

Re: Religion and its Impact

http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?ArticleId=426986
This article states information to support both science and faith. It explains the story of Moses crossing the Red Sea. It begins by stating that the red sea was (in theory) only a few feet or inches high at the place and time that they crossed. However, the Bible says that God created massive waves to drown the Egyptian army. In the Red Sea, artifacts have been found of gold chariot wheels, and bones of humans and horses.

P.S. Please do not argue about this, there are many ways to explain how this did or did not happen.

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Shift

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Re: Religion and its Impact

There are some questions, that doesn't have an answer. I'm sure that you can agree on that. For example, the big-bang theory is still a theory, it isn't proven yet. To believe in that something greater, as a God, created the universe while ignoring the points you've mentioned, is ignorant, yes of course. It is science, by the terms we know as science. Still, I find it as ignorant to blatantly dismiss the theory that a creator, or God, created all life. After all, science can't tell us what really created the universe, and to dismiss one theory before another, without any actual rock solid proof for each theory, is in my book ignorant. I'm open-minded about both theories. I believe that there is a God, but I do not deny science, logic, reason, experiment nor facts. This is more a question about philosophy than science. Since we really doesn't know what actually created the universe, it could be God that created everything, including science and such, or it could have happened without any greater being.

Thank you, that's exactly my point. You can't deny one theory but not the other, for there isn't enough proof to support either of them. The big bang theory could be correct, but who's to say God didn't create the big bang? Unless you were there at the time, you don't actually know.

Twipply

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Re: Religion and its Impact

Thank you, that's exactly my point. You can't deny one theory but not the other, for there isn't enough proof to support either of them. The big bang theory could be correct, but who's to say God didn't create the big bang? Unless you were there at the time, you don't actually know.

You may not be able to deny one of them entirely, however, you can sure take one as being far more probable than the other.

TheGreenTroll

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

I had assumed early on that your concept of god is that of one of the more major religions around today, as that was probably the most likely thing.   However, I'm not sure any more.   If that isn't actually the case, please do explain and maybe I'll happily retract claims of ignorance from you.

I think one of the few ways to reconcile religion with science, reason and the rest is to basically strip god down to a creator status and that's about it.   There can be no watching over us with total knowledge, power or anything else.   I still don't see how it's probable, but it sits far better with me.

I believe that God is the almighty creator of this universe, I believe in Jesus Christ and I believe in the Holy Spirit. I do not follow the Bible literally, since it was brought together by men some hundred of years later, but I do believe in the story of Jesus Christ, that he died on the cross etc. However, even though I believe in what basically is summed up as christianity, nothing of what I wrote in my last post is untrue.

As I've mentioned before, science is science by the terms we know as science, and you are probably correct when you say that there can be no almighty watcher. Although there is so much that we yet don't know, and that we can't comprehend.

About the catholic church and such in America (also the world), yes, you are correct.

Twipply

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

I believe in Jesus Christ and I believe in the Holy Spirit. I do not follow the Bible literally, since it was brought together by men some hundred of years later, but I do believe in the story of Jesus Christ, that he died on the cross etc.

What makes you believe in the Jesus parts if others can be dismissed?   Do you just like the message he's meant to have stood for?   Do you think it's reasonable / logical for an almighty creator to do such a thing?   Did Jesus die for our sins or perform miracles?

Don't feel as if you need answer all or any of those questions, I'm just curious now.

Shift

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

I hate to answer for TGT, but...

What makes you believe in the Jesus parts if others can be dismissed?

I dunno, what makes you believe in the big bang?

Do you just like the message he's meant to have stood for?

Yup. It's called being moral.

Do you think it's reasonable / logical for an almighty creator to do such a thing?

Is there logical proof against a creator? If you can't prove it wrong, then it's reasonable to believe it's possible.

Did Jesus die for our sins or perform miracles?

Possibly. I'm not religious at all, but I won't deny the possibility of either theory. In my opinion, each theory is equally possible.

Did you ever see one of the X-men movies?

You may not be able to deny one of them entirely, however, you can sure take one as being far more probable than the other.

... No, you can't. If you really think you can, then please explain it logically.

This is just a little side note that I thought of, please don't argue this. I just think it's funny, for it's technically, logically true:

You can't assume that x is true in order to prove that x is true. Logic is a science. Therefore, you can't use logic in order to prove science. Therefore, you can't logically prove science.

Last edited by Shift (Jan 22 2012 8:50:25 pm)

Twipply

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

I hate to answer for TGT, but...

So don't.

I dunno, what makes you believe in the big bang?

This isn't really what I asked him, but okay.   I believe it because it's a widely accepted scientific theory.   I accept all those things widely accepted by science.   He believes in Jesus, so I asked him why that and not other things.

Is there logical proof against a creator? If you can't prove it wrong, then it's reasonable to believe it's possible.

This also seems to be unrelated to you quoting me.   I didn't say anything about it not being possible, in fact, I believe you could quote me as having said quite the opposite before.

Possibly. I'm not religious at all, but I won't deny the possibility of either theory. In my opinion, each theory is equally possible.

You maybe wish to consider probable.

Did you ever see one of the X-men movies?

I guess?

... No, you can't. If you really think you can, then please explain it logically.

Maybe Occam's Razor is your kind of thing.   If two ideas describe something equally well, then it seems reasonable to suggest that the simplest is probably the correct one.   The two competing ideas here are that the big bang happened, and that god made the big bang happen.   They both seem to describe what we see equally as well, yet the first is the simplest, and thus the most probable.

You can't assume that x is true in order to prove that x is true. Logic is a science. Therefore, you can't use logic in order to prove science. Therefore, you can't logically prove science.

I can prove that Y is true based on the assumption that X is true.   Axiom.   Also, it seems that you may be messing up your sets.   "x is equal to x" and "x is a subset of y" are different things.

Last edited by Twipply (Jan 22 2012 9:51:27 pm)

tak4n

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Joined: 2015-02-17

Posts: 1,883

Re: Religion and its Impact

So you are telling us that we should stop celebrating Christmas forever and stop believing in God? I disagree that will ever happen. You should let people believe into what they want to believe as it keeps them going.

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Twipply

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

So you are telling us that we should stop celebrating Christmas forever and stop believing in God? I disagree that will ever happen. You should let people believe into what they want to believe as it keeps them going.

In an ideal world, yes, I'd perhaps indirectly get rid of religion.   However, I'd have to do so without infringing on any rights.   Do I think this will happen eventually?   Yeah, I do.   I think it will be a great day in human history when we can be rid of religion.   I don't think it will happen in my lifetime, but I have hope for the future.   Christmas can stay though, in my own country it's very rarely seen as a religious practice anyway.

A problem with people thinking whatever they want to, is that some of them eventually get into power and start enforcing their archaic beliefs.

WELL_

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

I have only 3 questions for christians and I am really curious:

Does morality come from the book called bible?
Do you believe in equality between woman and man?
Do you think it is moral to enslave someone?
(just yes or no is 100% fine)

Oh and one more, why dont you believe in Alah and his prophet Mohamed?

brief answers are ok for me thanks.

EDIT: grammar

Last edited by WELL_ (Jan 24 2012 5:08:36 am)

Shift

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

So don't.

... Is this necessary? Was it really worth your time to waste two lines of text? Yes, these are also rhetorical questions.

This isn't really what I asked him, but okay.   I believe it because it's a widely accepted scientific theory.   I accept all those things widely accepted by science.   He believes in Jesus, so I asked him why that and not other things.

I never insinuated you asked him anything that you didn't; I simply answered with a question of equal validity. If you believe in the big bang, then why can't somebody else believe in God? You accept science because it's widely accepted by science. Others accept religion because it's widely accepted by religion.

This also seems to be unrelated to you quoting me.   I didn't say anything about it not being possible, in fact, I believe you could quote me as having said quite the opposite before.

Again, I answered you with a question of equal validity. If you really don't have enough common sense to see that, then I suggest you leave these intellectual debates. I really hope you understood what I was getting at, and just decided to answer as you did because you couldn't think of anything better.

Anyway, if there isn't any proof against a creator, then yes, it is reasonable to believe in one. Did I not answer your question twice now? Yes, that is a rhetorical question.

You maybe wish to consider probable.

... Okay.

Maybe Occam's Razor is your kind of thing.   If two ideas describe something equally well, then it seems reasonable to suggest that the simplest is probably the correct one.   The two competing ideas here are that the big bang happened, and that god made the big bang happen.   They both seem to describe what we see equally as well, yet the first is the simplest, and thus the most probable.

Wait, you're really trying to argue that the big bang is simpler than some dude saying "Let there be light"? In that case, I direct you to my third response in this string of quotes.

Besides, logic doesn't suggest that the simpler theory is the correct one. As far as I know, it doesn't even breach the subject. (If you can link me to where it does, then I may change my mind.)

I can prove that Y is true based on the assumption that X is true.   Axiom.   Also, it seems that you may be messing up your sets.   "x is equal to x" and "x is a subset of y" are different things.

This is just a little side note that I thought of, please don't argue this. I just think it's funny

Must we argue an unarguable argument? I know I'm argumentative, but there's a limit.

I have only 3 questions for christians and I am really curious:

Well, technically I'm Christian. I don't do anything about it, though, so do I count?

Does morality come from the book called bible?

Probably not. I imagine people had already came up with the concept of not killing each other. That's not to say that the Bible doesn't have a few moral stories in there, wouldn't you agree?

Do you believe in equality between woman and man?

Frankly... no. I believe in an average equality between genders, but they're obviously not equal on every level. Did I just troll? My bad.

Do you think it is moral to enslave someone?

So many racist jokes jump to mind, but no, it's not moral to own somebody.

I assume you're trying to make a circular argument, by saying that the Romans/other people in the Bible enslaved others and stood for patriarchy, but the Bible never says that the slave-owners will go to heaven, does it? As far as I remember, Jesus didn't own any slaves. Besides, cultures tend to change over time, right?

EDIT: Oops, I missed one.

why dont you believe in Alah and his prophet Mohamed?

Because I was raised in a Christian household. Besides the cultural practices, Christianity and Islam are extremely similar, so I don't see how this matters, anyway. I liked the dude on the cross slightly more than the Muslims did, and Mohammed is ugly?

Last edited by Shift (Jan 24 2012 3:42:23 pm)

Jaybm

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

I have only 3 questions for christians and I am really curious:

ok...

Does morality come from the book called bible?

Yes the bible has morals in it, but you only need some common sense to know right from wrong.

Do you believe in equality between woman and man?

Umm yes, what does this have to do with christianity...?

Do you think it is moral to enslave someone?

Umm no, again, what does this have to do with christianity...?

Oh and one more, why dont you believe in Alah and his prophet Mohamed?

...because im christian and i believe in Jesus, im not islamic...

krubby

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Joined: 2015-06-23

Posts: 1,190

Re: Religion and its Impact

Last edited by krubby (Jan 24 2012 3:43:51 pm)

Tako

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From: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Joined: 2015-08-10

Posts: 6,663

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Re: Religion and its Impact

So you are telling us that we should stop celebrating Christmas forever and stop believing in God? I disagree that will ever happen. You should let people believe into what they want to believe as it keeps them going.

I know you were talking to Twipply, but I couldn't resist responding to such an... abrasive post.

I saw an image the other day; it really spoke to me. It was a picture of the twin towers, and in front in said "Imagine a world without religion". I'll let that speak for itself. Would it be such a bad thing to stop celebrating Christmas and to stop believing in (a) God?

You're absolutely right in that people will believe in what they want to. Allow me to miraculously tie this point to a point I made a couple months back, here. People will do whatever they want, but this does not mean it is the right thing to believe in. Understand that some things should not exist in this world; yet they do anyway because the very believers in it are too blinded to realize what it really is.

Understand the truth of theism. It truly is nothing more than an explanation of the unexplainable; Christianity to be specific is like a harpoon - once it penetrates the mind you can either go all the way or go back to where you started; rarely can one undo their involvance. It does this through threats of hell and promises of heaven. Why would a church need to harpoon people's minds?

These days, you have all the explanations you'll ever need and more. And trust me, they all happened in this universe. Not Jesus's. 2000 years ago, they didn't have so many explanations; so they had to make up their own. And like a fire, combined with the Roman empire, Judaism quickly spread throughout Europe, and eventually to America. I'm waiting for this fire to die out - the consequences of religion are affecting myself and I do not wish to be involved anymore.

Be logical. That's all I ask. I ask that you not believe in a magic baby because a nice man behind a pulpit says you should.

I put faith in chairs, not the creation and history of humankind. I should hope you do the same.

Last edited by Tako (Jan 24 2012 3:49:04 pm)

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Yeah, well, you know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

WELL_

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

I dont get it. In that case what is so special about bible? Isnt it just a book?

EDIT: that wasnt for you Tako just in general.

Last edited by WELL_ (Jan 24 2012 3:48:47 pm)

Shift

Guest

Re: Religion and its Impact

Tako, I would just like to point out that 9/11 is barely connected to religion at all. Nowhere in the Qur'an does it state that Christians are evil and must be destroyed; 9/11 was affected simply by a madman on shrooms, or whatever drugs they have out there.

I dont get it. In that case what is so special about bible? Isnt it just a book?

Yes, it's just a book. The only thing special about it is the numerous people who believe in it so strongly. But, then, isn't that what a scientific theory is?

Last edited by Shift (Jan 24 2012 4:09:45 pm)

Tako

Member

From: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Joined: 2015-08-10

Posts: 6,663

Website

Re: Religion and its Impact

No, not at all.

Science is not a book. You cannot believe in science. Either you accept it or rebuke it. Unfortunately, if you rebuke it you're an idiot, because that's the equivalent of saying "2+2=fish!!!"

Notice, there's a big difference between "science" and "scientific theories". If you put your faith in the Big-Bang theory, then yes, you are religious. This does not mean you have a religion, it means you are religious in that you put your faith in something.

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Yeah, well, you know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.