The Second American Civil War

xputnameherex · Before February 2015

So right now, the US Government is forcing the people to buy health care. Yes, forcing. As fair as that is (sarcasm), Virginia (A state) has their own law that says that the federal government cannot force you to buy health care.

Jump back 151 years:

Slavery outlawed. Southern states have laws against it. Northern states intervene. Civil War.

Go to the possible future:

Federal Government intervenes in Virginian affairs. States are decided Capitalist and Socialist. CVS (...) Civil War.

Completely legitimate POSSIBILITY.

Discuss Discourage (Hooray for quoting a song)

EDIT: 3 +reps for anyone who knows what song that is.

EDIT 2:

Things you should know before posting something stupid:

1. This law overrides Federal Law. And that's why it's a problem.

2. I'm comparing Right to Freedom --> Right to Freedom. Not necessarily what the freedom is, although that is a part to it.

3. I never said it was gonna happen. I said that it is actually a major possibility. And by major, I mean like, 5% of a chance. Maybe. Don't think that I think it's going to happen, I highly doubt it.

4. PPACA "PPACA (ObamaCare) requires individuals not covered by employer- or government-sponsored insurance plans to maintain minimal essential health insurance coverage or pay a penalty unless exempted for religious beliefs or financial hardship, a provision commonly referred to as the individual mandate."

5. THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT FOR DEMOCRATS OR REPUBLICANS!

Last edited by xputnameherex (Jun 30 2012 8:39:43 pm)

Buzzerbee · Before February 2015

I sure hope another civil war happens. Just not as bloody as last time ._.

It's time someone teaches our damn government a lesson.

BEE · Before February 2015

Fun fact: Federal laws overrule state laws.

ThuggishPrune · Before February 2015

You're comparing the freedom of African Americans to Health Care.

Well I've seen about it all.

Last edited by ThuggishPrune (Jun 29 2012 1:52:42 pm)

Nou · Before February 2015

LOL. This has to be one of the most slow threads I've ever seen. I was gonna write a big piece on why, but it's not even worth it.

MIHB · Before February 2015

*slowly backs out*

Muffy · Before February 2015

*Packs for China*

krubby · Before February 2015

actually, the government doesn't force people to buy healthcare. bye bye.

xputnameherex · Before February 2015

@Buzzerbee: Well, the American Civil War had a higher mortality than all other American Wars combined, if I'm correct. Lemme get a chart.
images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT5504rssgcpQgpQaGrXItV5Wr2e13EQSwJ4d_tqUbZlcQoZSUIEA But it does have the most. Even big things like the Revolutionary War, with even worse treatment for infections and stuff, had much lower rates. Pro-Life: There have been over 100x that in Abortian deaths! That was all Off-Topic, wasn't it?

I guess it was all the others Minus World War 2.

@BEE: Except for this law! And that's why it's a problem.

@TP: I'm comparing Right to Freedom --> Right to Freedom. Not necessarily what the freedom is, although that is a part to it.

@Nou: Hey, I never said it was gonna happen. I said that it is actually a major possibility. And by major, I mean like, 5% of a chance. Maybe. Don't think that I think it's going to happen, I highly doubt it.

@MIHB and Muffinator: Backs out to China?

@krubby: Ahem. "PPACA (ObamaCare) requires individuals not covered by employer- or government-sponsored insurance plans to maintain minimal essential health insurance coverage or pay a penalty unless exempted for religious beliefs or financial hardship, a provision commonly referred to as the individual mandate."

Last edited by xputnameherex (Jun 29 2012 6:43:52 pm)

JadElClemens · Before February 2015

krubby wrote:

actually, the government doesn't force people to buy healthcare. bye bye.

Yes, it is a law that you buy health care unless you like being fined for not having it.

I have to say, the issues surrounding the first civil war and "this" one are drastically different.

I mean, most of the euro~~poor~~pean nations have socialized healthcare, and... I can't say, I don't follow foreign politics closely. I mean, they're still there, so I assume it's gone over well enough.

xputnameherex · Before February 2015

JadElClemens wrote:

krubby wrote:
actually, the government doesn't force people to buy healthcare. bye bye.
Yes, it is a law that you buy health care unless you like being fined for not having it.
I have to say, the issues surrounding the first civil war and "this" one are drastically different.
I mean, most of the euro~~poor~~pean nations have socialized healthcare, and... I can't say, I don't follow foreign politics closely. I mean, they're still there, so I assume it's gone over well enough.

As I said, the Civil Wars would be different, and it's really just the right to freedom that's being trampled on. Just in the opposite manner (1st: Government makes free, revolution, this: Government makes strict, revolution)

And not all European Nations have health care such as ours. In fact, most spend half as much on health care as we do, yet have much much more healthy people. Nations like France have it, but then again, income taxes can go over 50% there.

JadElClemens · Before February 2015

xputnameherex wrote:

And not all European Nations have health care such as ours. In fact, most spend half as much on health care as we do, yet have much much more healthy people. Nations like France have it, but then again, income taxes can go over 50% there.

I don't think the big issue here for most people is the amount we spend, but the fact that we're being forced to spend it. Many European nations have socialized healthcare, and I think they're doing pretty well.

I mean, the euro-based ones are going down the toilet [formerly expletive], but the others seem to be doing fine.

Nou · Before February 2015

This sums it up.

xputnameherex · Before February 2015

Nou wrote:

This sums it up.
http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/ph … 0_460s.jpg

It's the other part: Being forced to buy Health Care. But you can't expect a pro-comic to mention that.

supadorf24 · Before February 2015

The government does a lot of stupid **** and I haven't seen many civil wars lately.

Superfly · Before February 2015

Not with the politics again... Being born in America you sign a "pact" with the government, which you can get out of at any time. You pay social security, taxes, yada yada, and in the end (not so much lately), it starts coming back to you in the form of pension, etc. Look at Eduardo Saverin, the co-founder (and previous CFO) of Facebook. He no longer wanted to pay taxes on I forget what, so he revoked his citizenship, moved to another country, and no longer pays them. It may not sound that easy but if you don't want to be forced to pay it then leave (not in a mean way).

The Health Care Package DOES have it's ups and downs. Like in Nou's comic, it does end up covering children, helping the seriously ill, but also you DO have to pay for it, and it is mandatory. The President/Government is trying to help us in the long run, whether it flops or is a success. Some of us disagree with it and others don't. Some of us just think Obama is a terrible president. We've already had plenty (George W. Bush, Jr.).

But then again there IS the possibility of a Civil War I guess. Let's just hope we American's aren't completely stupid about it, and find a better way to resolve it, rather than turning to war, which we always do .

Chewy · Before February 2015

Well, we got to look back at our past to solve future problems. The last depression was solved because of a war, but a major one. How are Germany and Japan doing these days? /jokes.

xputnameherex · Before February 2015

@Supadorf: Possibility, freedom.

@ThyCowman: Not about political parties, added to OP.

Ratburntro44 · Before February 2015

Compares Canada and (current) US health care systems.

Compares Canada and US happiness rankings.

BEE · Before February 2015

.

xputnameherex · Before February 2015

@Bee: Do you really think that they'd be so stupid as to make a law that overrules Federal Law, that doesn't overrule Federal Law?

I know what the law is about (although of course I haven't read its thousands of pages), and I do pay insurance.

And I don't see the difference between being forced to buy it and paying a tax if you won't. In China, they don't force you to not have a second child, but if you do, you pay a tax. And here's where it gets really similar:

That does help China.
But does that make it right?

Nou · Before February 2015

xputnameherex wrote:

@Bee: Do you really think that they'd be so stupid as to make a law that overrules Federal Law, that doesn't overrule Federal Law?
I know what the law is about (although of course I haven't read its thousands of pages), and I do pay insurance.
And I don't see the difference between being forced to buy it and paying a tax if you won't. In China, they don't force you to not have a second child, but if you do, you pay a tax. And here's where it gets really similar:
That does help China.
But does that make it right?

Except that China is faced with heavy overpopulation and that those taxes will pretty much ruin your life considering how high they are. If the child is not a boy, you're screwed because a girl can't work the same way as a boy can (according to the Chinese) to pull his own weight. That's nothing like America. Please, stop making these dumb comparisons.

32OrtonEdge32dh · Before February 2015

First of all, it's not that big of a deal. You should have healthcare anyway, and if you don't, go get it. This is probably a step toward Canadian healthcare, where everyone has it automatically. Just because they make you either buy healthcare or pay a tax (well, it's only a tax because it has to be per the SCOTUS) doesn't mean that tomorrow they're gonna force you to eat broccoli every Wednesday or get gay-married next October. The court wouldn't have approved it if it infringed upon rights, and neither would both houses of Congress. Plus, you don't have to pay the individual mandate if your religion forbids it (so you can say that Pastafarianism prevents it and then win) or if you can't afford it. Plus, the mandate isn't the only beneficial part of the plan. It also:

...makes it so all new plans must cover certain preventive services such as mammograms and colonoscopies without charging a deductible, co-pay or coinsurance. Women's Preventive Services ? including well-woman visits, support for breastfeeding equipment, contraception and domestic violence screening ? will be covered without cost sharing.
Income from self-employment and wages of single individuals in excess of $200,000 annually will be subject to an additional tax of 0.9%. The threshold amount is $250,000 for a married couple filing jointly (threshold applies to joint compensation of the two spouses), or $125,000 for a married person filing separately. In addition, an additional Medicare tax of 3.8% will apply to unearned income, specifically the lesser of net investment income or the amount by which adjusted gross income exceeds $200,000 ($250,000 for a married couple filing jointly; $125,000 for a married person filing separately.) Pretty much, people who make more than enough money have to give less than 1 percent for Medicare
Insurers are prohibited from discriminating against or charging higher rates for any individuals based on pre-existing medical conditions.
Impose an annual penalty of $95, or up to 1% of income, whichever is greater, on individuals who do not secure insurance; this will rise to $695, or 2.5% of income, by 2016. This is an individual limit; families have a limit of $2,085. People have two years until the $95/1% penalty, and four years before the $695/2.5% penalty
Insurers are prohibited from establishing annual spending caps.
Expand Medicaid eligibility; all individuals with income up to 133% of the poverty line qualify for coverage, including adults without dependent children.
Two years of tax credits will be offered to qualified small businesses.
Impose a $2,000 per employee tax penalty on employers with more than 50 employees who do not offer health insurance to their full-time workers (as amended by the reconciliation bill).
All existing health insurance plans must cover approved preventive care and checkups without co-payment.
A 40% excise tax on high cost ("Cadillac") insurance plans is introduced.
et al.

Koto · Before February 2015

BEE wrote:

Fun fact: Federal laws overrule state laws.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was going to say.

Ratburntro44 · Before February 2015

xputnameherex wrote:

@Bee: Do you really think that they'd be so stupid as to make a law that overrules Federal Law, that doesn't overrule Federal Law??

The thing is, it doesn't matter what the **** they say in their law. They can't overrule a federal law under any legal circumstances.

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