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Arceus64

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Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

But quite a lot of Americans aren't responsible with guns at the current moment, countries like Canada are much more responsible. So why should a society that misuses guns on a large scale get them?
http://www.oyetimes.com/news/america/33 … ted-states

Don't accuse me of being too judgmental, statistics   and logic back me up.

So you're saying Americans can't handle guns? That the small percent of these rare instances with guns define who we are?

I'll tell you this, there are so many people in America who are responsible with these types of weapons. Saying the society shouldn't have guns when about .0001% of us have actually done something bad with them is a completely senseless remark.

treejoe4

Guest

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

But quite a lot of Americans aren't responsible with guns at the current moment, countries like Canada are much more responsible. So why should a society that misuses guns on a large scale get them?
http://www.oyetimes.com/news/america/33 … ted-states

Don't accuse me of being too judgmental, statistics   and logic back me up.

So you're saying Americans can't handle guns? That the small percent of these rare instances with guns define who we are?

I'll tell you this, there are so many people in America who are responsible with these types of weapons. Saying the society shouldn't have guns when about .0001% of us have actually done something bad with them is a completely senseless remark.

Look at the statistics on the website then tell me guns are worth it. The small percentage is enough to put your country far up in gun murders. Guns are pretty much a caveman tool to case chaos and prevent peace, if people want peace they shouldn't live in fear with weapons.

0176

Member

From: Brazil

Joined: 2021-09-05

Posts: 3,174

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

If one had to go through deep stuff and buy a gun illegally in order to commit a mass murder or something like that, IMO he wouldn't be willing to as much, and would think more about it. But if he just had to go to a store and get one legally, he wouldn't feel so guilty, or whatever the word is

EDIT: What do you normal Americans do with those legal guns? Kill people robbing your house? Not taunting, I'm just curious about that.

Last edited by 0176 (Dec 15 2012 3:49:17 pm)

treejoe4

Guest

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Krubby has once again minus repped   me, saying with 'it can happen anywhere by any crazy'

(Another minus rep just because I hate America for valid reasons)

Of course school shooters or any other mass shootings   can happen anywhere, they have happened in UK schools. But the mass majority of random mass shootings take place in America, by stating this no one is being ignorant, America is number #1 in civilian gun murders in a developed country. Shootings happen every few months there.

Crazy people are everywhere, but they are going to start spilling blood more frequently in a country where you can get a gun so easily, and where you will be made 'famous' for weeks in media.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jGtAcDefHg = Explains everything anyone needs to know as to how to avoid a mass shooting.

Last edited by treejoe4 (Dec 15 2012 4:32:50 pm)

Arceus64

Guest

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

But quite a lot of Americans aren't responsible with guns at the current moment, countries like Canada are much more responsible. So why should a society that misuses guns on a large scale get them?
http://www.oyetimes.com/news/america/33 … ted-states

Don't accuse me of being too judgmental, statistics   and logic back me up.

So you're saying Americans can't handle guns? That the small percent of these rare instances with guns define who we are?

I'll tell you this, there are so many people in America who are responsible with these types of weapons. Saying the society shouldn't have guns when about .0001% of us have actually done something bad with them is a completely senseless remark.

Look at the statistics on the website then tell me guns are worth it. The small percentage is enough to put your country far up in gun murders. Guns are pretty much a caveman tool to case chaos and prevent peace, if people want peace they shouldn't live in fear with weapons.

You haven't answered my question yet:

So you're saying Americans can't handle guns? That the small percent of these rare instances with guns define who we are?

Guns are pretty much a caveman tool to case chaos and prevent peace, if people want peace they shouldn't live in fear with weapons.

You now this means the entire world, right? Anything can be a weapon. The knife in your kitchen is a weapon. The rope in you garage is a weapon. Even the screwdriver in your toolbox is a weapon. And does that automatically define your nation (or anywhere) as a weapon-filled danger zone? Of course not. Those "weapons" primary uses aren't for a massacre, now are they?

Now, Americans have guns. A gun may be a weapon, but it is used safely in America almost every instance. The news doesn't minutely report that a person has used a gun safely, now does it? Of course not, the news is only there to tell you when it hasn't. News would get rather dull, wouldn't it (if it already hasn't)?

Last edited by Arceus64 (Dec 15 2012 7:29:30 pm)

treejoe4

Guest

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

I'm not saying Americans can't handle guns, I'm saying there is a larger amount of people who misuse them compared to other countries.

Of course American news won't report gun safety news, but the statistics do prove that guns are causing a huge amount of problems.

A large amount of objects can be considered a weapon. Swords and knifes are designed to cut, but they are not as lethal as a gun. A gun is a powerful tool designed to kill, and it's not just about protection too in America. They legalize dangerous, high powered automatic use that go beyond the use of 'defending'.

Guns should never be promoted in any shape or form, they will not progress in society in any shape or form.

Arceus64

Guest

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

A large amount of objects can be considered a weapon. Swords and knifes are designed to cut, but they are not as lethal as a gun. A gun is a powerful tool designed to kill, and it's not just about protection too in America. They legalize dangerous, high powered automatic use that go beyond the use of 'defending'.

Of course they can go beyond the use of defending, that's the human ability.

treejoe4

Guest

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

A large amount of objects can be considered a weapon. Swords and knifes are designed to cut, but they are not as lethal as a gun. A gun is a powerful tool designed to kill, and it's not just about protection too in America. They legalize dangerous, high powered automatic use that go beyond the use of 'defending'.

Of course they can go beyond the use of defending, that's the human ability.

Then society doesn't deserve the use of metal killing tools.

MIHB

Guest

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

A large amount of objects can be considered a weapon. Swords and knifes are designed to cut, but they are not as lethal as a gun. A gun is a powerful tool designed to kill, and it's not just about protection too in America. They legalize dangerous, high powered automatic use that go beyond the use of 'defending'.

Of course they can go beyond the use of defending, that's the human ability.

Then society doesn't deserve the use of metal killing tools.

Did you actually look at the website you linked?   Switzerland, despite having the second highest gun ownership rate, has a gun death rate per capita a bare fraction of that in the United States.   Which is self-evident proof that a competent people can have guns and still be safe.

To be frank, if you bring up gun ownership as a societal problem in a general context, I doubt I would agree with you, but I would respect your opinion.

If you're bringing this up in response to the connecticut tragedy, you're an idiot.   The connecticut tragedy is tragedy inappropriate content, a highly visible incident that nevertheless would have had zero impact or importance... except that everybody talks about it.

6000 people die in the US every day.   20 people die from big horrible incidents like this once in a blue moon.   You do the math on how important it actually is.

treejoe4

Guest

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Of course they can go beyond the use of defending, that's the human ability.

Then society doesn't deserve the use of metal killing tools.

Did you actually look at the website you linked?   Switzerland, despite having the second highest gun ownership rate, has a gun death rate per capita a bare fraction of that in the United States.   Which is self-evident proof that a competent people can have guns and still be safe.

To be frank, if you bring up gun ownership as a societal problem in a general context, I doubt I would agree with you, but I would respect your opinion.

If you're bringing this up in response to the connecticut tragedy, you're an idiot.   The connecticut tragedy is tragedy inappropriate content, a highly visible incident that nevertheless would have had zero impact or importance... except that everybody talks about it.

6000 people die in the US every day.   20 people die from big horrible incidents like this once in a blue moon.   You do the math on how important it actually is.

If a society can be responsible with guns, they should be able to own them. But with America this isn't the case. And it doesn't matter that 6000 people die every day, it matters about how they died. And it's obvious guns are causing a problem.

I'm not bringing this up in response to this event, I have always had this opinion.

Tako

Member

From: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Joined: 2015-08-10

Posts: 6,663

Website

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

If you're bringing this up in response to the connecticut tragedy, you're an idiot.   The connecticut tragedy is tragedy inappropriate content, a highly visible incident that nevertheless would have had zero impact or importance... except that everybody talks about it.

6000 people die in the US every day.   20 people die from big horrible incidents like this once in a blue moon.   You do the math on how important it actually is.

Strictly statistically speaking, we have tons of children left over from this accident, sure. Their death is a grain of sand in comparison to daily national deaths. But it's not about that, now is it? I'm sure you know there are two sides to this coin.

This may not be statistically important; maybe in the 18000x18000 image this is just a misplaced pixel - but what I think you are forgetting about is how important this picture is. This picture is the American population, and your care for this picture shows how much you care about human life in general.

You are right - this has no immediate impact or importance to us, but our reactions to these events are extremely important to the world and to ourselves.

---

Yeah, well, you know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

Shift

Guest

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

I can't believe how far this thread has devolved. This is exactly what I meant by my first post! People are blowing one frankly insignificant event out of proportion... in order to argue for the removal of Constitutional rights? Sounds about fair.

MIHB

Guest

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

I can't believe how far this thread has devolved. This is exactly what I meant by my first post! People are blowing one frankly insignificant event out of proportion... in order to argue for the removal of Constitutional rights? Sounds about fair.

So it goes.

Tako, our collective overreaction to a single insignificant event is indeed extremely important. . . and not in a good way.   To use your analogy, our overreaction is something like a larger swath of the picture being distorted in response to the single pixel out of place.

treejoe4

Guest

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

I can't believe how far this thread has devolved. This is exactly what I meant by my first post! People are blowing one frankly insignificant event out of proportion... in order to argue for the removal of Constitutional rights? Sounds about fair.

But it's not a rare thing isn't it. I don't understand obsession with owning a gun just because you can.

Arceus64

Guest

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Yes, it may sound insignificant to some of you, but it is still tragic and important.

Little innocent kids between the ages of 6 to 7 were killed because of one selfish and messed up person. Their teachers were killed. A whole community (and nation) left in tears.

Imagine if someone went and killed, say, your entire family or college class. Terrible, right? Then I tell you it's insignificant, and you should just stop caring about it.

Yes, it's insignificant on a scale of the world, but it's so much bigger in meaning. What can we learn from it? What changes can we make (for instance, bigger security in school buildings)? Can we treat these kinds of problems before they happen again?

Also, every TV crew in the nation should just leave them alone right now so that can have some privacy.

Tako

Member

From: Memphis, Tennessee, USA

Joined: 2015-08-10

Posts: 6,663

Website

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Tako, our collective overreaction to a single insignificant event is indeed extremely important. . . and not in a good way.   To use your analogy, our overreaction is something like a larger swath of the picture being distorted in response to the single pixel out of place.

I do not think it matters whether sentimentalism is important in a bad way or a good way. I know that it fixes problems and that is what matters.

People are blowing one frankly insignificant event out of proportion... in order to argue for the removal of Constitutional rights?

We are adding this tragedy to the list in our history of "Things That Could Have Been Prevented", and wondering why such a powerful and supposedly "advanced" country is still having trouble with it.

Out of proportion? Perhaps, but the superficial got boring really fast and we moved on the the big picture.

---

Yeah, well, you know that's just like, uh, your opinion, man.

MIHB

Guest

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Yes, it may sound insignificant to some of you, but it is still tragic and important.

Tragic, yes.   Important, no.   The rate of incidents of this sort has been stable for years.   In the meantime, our economy continues to struggle and a number of societal indicators are getting worse.

You're worrying about the wrong things.   However, the right things aren't nearly as attention-grabbing as a few kids gunned down in a school.

Echo!

Guest

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

You're worrying about the wrong things.   However, the right things aren't nearly as attention-grabbing as a few kids gunned down in a school.

"A few kids" 20 isn't exactly a few. Do you even know how it feels to loose your own kid, raising them for several years, then sending them to school, to get shot down without reason, he may have had reasons to kill his parents, but not the children. I suppose that's the reason why people think this case is so "important" as they don't want it to happen again of this scale, though, that's as near impossible.

What you just said was selfish, if it was one of your kids, you would have a completely different view of things.

treejoe4

Guest

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Yes, it may sound insignificant to some of you, but it is still tragic and important.

Tragic, yes.   Important, no.   The rate of incidents of this sort has been stable for years.   In the meantime, our economy continues to struggle and a number of societal indicators are getting worse.

You're worrying about the wrong things.   However, the right things aren't nearly as attention-grabbing as a few kids gunned down in a school.

This doesn't make sense though, a child is meant to be safe in school. Do you really expect parents to be focusing on other things?

Yes, there are more problems such as Americas immoral wars, that get pretty much no attention. But the death of kids like this should be made aware of, but not in the way it is now.

MIHB

Guest

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

You're worrying about the wrong things.   However, the right things aren't nearly as attention-grabbing as a few kids gunned down in a school.

"A few kids" 20 isn't exactly a few. Do you even know how it feels to loose your own kid, raising them for several years, then sending them to school, to get shot down without reason, he may have had reasons to kill his parents, but not the children. I suppose that's the reason why people think this case is so "important" as they don't want it to happen again of this scale, though, that's as near impossible.

What you just said was selfish, if it was one of your kids, you would have a completely different view of things.

20 kids is a monumentally low number in the overall scheme of things.

Around the world, about 20 people will die in the time it takes you to read this paragraph.   More actually, since I'm still typing.   Do you spend your time worrying about those 20 people?   What about the 20 people who died while you were reading the previous message?   Or the 20 people who died last time you got up to get a drink from the refrigerator?   Or the 120 people who died during the last commercial break you watched?   Or the 3000 people who died during the last tv show?

When was the last time you concerned yourself with prostate cancer?   28,000 deaths from prostate cancer this year.   20 deaths from nutjob with a gun in a school.

You say I'm selfish for not being concerned about other people's children.   Did you shed any tears for my grandfather when he died?   He died on 9/11/2001.   Oh yes you say, you were very sad for the victims of 9/11.   The towers collapsing was so tragic!   My grandfather didn't die from the towers or the planes.   He died of a 5 month battle with cancer.   His death wasn't nearly as interesting as those who died in the towers. . . but he's just as dead.   Did you shed any tears for him?

I empathize with the parents who lost their children in Connecticut, but they were not my children, and my concern over the event is only due to whether or not it was indicative of a societal trend, or just an isolated incident.   The incidents of this sort are not on the rise, and many worse things in the world have my attention.

This doesn't make sense though, a child is meant to be safe in school. Do you really expect parents to be focusing on other things?

I expect them to do exactly what they do.   That doesn't make it right.   If I see somebody stub their toe, and I stand in the street to talk about how dangerous curbs are, I'm a moron.   I don't see the car coming and I'm focused on the threat of the curb, but the car will hit me all the same.

As a people we spend far too much time and energy worrying about these issues that really don't matter so much, and little time worrying about the things that do matter.

There is a fundamental risk to life that we have to accept.   Sometimes we get hit by a car that ran a stop light, and sometimes a crazy guy walks through the door and shoots us.   The fact that the guy shooting us is more surprising doesn't make it more important.   It actually indicates its less important: its a surprise because THAT NEVER HAPPENS.

Quick, when was the last time some nutjob walked into a school and killed a few kids.   (Yes Echo, 20 is a few.   More people died while I was typing this sentence than died in that school.)   The only similar massacre I can recall of children in a school was Columbine, which took place THIRTEEN YEARS AGO.   This is not a major societal ill.

(Of course treejoe, I respect your concern for guns as a GENERAL problem rather than as a problem as seen in this isolated incident.)

Last edited by MIHB (Dec 17 2012 1:51:39 pm)

treejoe4

Guest

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

MIHB, you obviously don't appreciate life in any way. Public shootings are taking place more and more often, you keep saying how it doesn't matter compared to other deaths. But the kids that have been killed aren't 80 years old, they are kids, they were meant to be safe. It's not as simple as placing them with the death rate.

With pretty much monthly public shootings in America, it's gone beyond the simple 'oh its just a rare random lunatic'. It literally isn't a rare thing in schools.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sc … ted_States

There has been 7 cases reported of school shootings in 2012. And even more random public shootings, like the recent cinema massacre. And not to long after that a man was caught planning a Twilight premier shooting.

Statistics show what is killing the citizens of a country, these problems must be fixed. But it's a more serious issue than something such as lung cancer, because random people being shot is not a lifestyle choice. It's not something that someone can avoid easily.

Last edited by treejoe4 (Dec 17 2012 2:06:37 pm)

Echo!

Guest

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

blah blah

Why did you give me a wall of text? Why are you comparing grapes with bananas? 20 is a large number of this instance, considering it can be reduced fairly easily, unlike, parasitic diseases, old age, cancer, ect. I am very aware of the death rate, actually. As I said, lawful death is as near as impossible to reduce, though unlawful death is not. You're looking at the number in the completely wrong perspective. I am sorry for the loss of your grandfather.

You're just confusing statics, there is a huge difference between different causes of deaths, and you're being childish.

Tachyonic

Guest

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

September 11th - A Dose of Buckley
Contains swearing and whatnot.
It may seem like it has barely any relation to this, but just swap all the text about 9/11 and replace it with the CESS.

Last edited by Tachyonic (Dec 17 2012 2:38:50 pm)

MIHB

Guest

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

MIHB, you obviously don't appreciate life in any way.

Typical.   Can't argue the points, so question the morality/humanity/whatever of the other person.   This is the argument of a person with no ground to stand on.   If you believe you're in the right, argue like it.

For the record, I care about the statistics which show where the life is really being lost.   I do not care about the particular deaths being shown on the television screen, which most people here are freaking out over.   That is a rather common human judgment bias called the identifiable victim effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identifiable_victim_effect

Public shootings are taking place more and more often, you keep saying how it doesn't matter compared to other deaths. But the kids that have been killed aren't 80 years old, they are kids, they were meant to be safe. It's not as simple as placing them with the death rate.

With pretty much monthly public shootings in America, it's gone beyond the simple 'oh its just a rare random lunatic'. It literally isn't a rare thing in schools.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sc … ted_States

You put a link to a page that suggests that incidents of this sort have been happening regularly, every decade, since the 50s.   That is not a good argument to suggest the rate is on the rise.

Now, there is more ground to support it in the fact that the number that have happened this year is much higher than before.   Although that might be a case of small sample size, its a reasonable stance to take and at least merits looking at.   I'm absolutely willing to engage in discussions that suggests this is a growing phenomenon indicative of a larger underlying problem.   (I do not believe guns to be a central underlying issue, but I am willing to acknowledge I could be mistaken.)

Statistics show what is killing the citizens of a country, these problems must be fixed. But it's a more serious issue than something such as lung cancer, because random people being shot is not a lifestyle choice. It's not something that someone can avoid easily.

Woah, hold on now.   There are a LOT of ways people die that are not due to lifestyle choice, that are more common than in-school deaths, or even deaths due to guns in general.   Furthermore, a HUGE percentage of gun-related deaths are in fact lifestyle deaths, not random violence deaths.   Dangerous people die by guns far, far more often than the regular law-abiding person.

Why did you give me a wall of text?

Are you too lazy to read something that disagrees with you?

Why are you comparing grapes with bananas? 20 is a large number of this instance, considering it can be reduced fairly easily

What, are you insane?   Do you have any idea how money works or the cost of things?   I dare you right now to explain how those deaths could have been "easily" reduced, without requiring large-scale monetary expenditures or substantial cultural shifts.   Don't hand-wave it away and say its easy.   If its easy, explain it, or you have nothing.

I am very aware of the death rate, actually. As I said, lawful death is as near as impossible to reduce, though unlawful death is not. You're looking at the number in the completely wrong perspective. I am sorry for the loss of your grandfather.

Are you sorry for the 20 people who died while reading this?   Or any of the other 153,000 people who are going to die today?

We cannot possibly mourn the loss of every single person who dies.   Of those 153,000 people who die today, a large number will be children the same age as those who died in Connecticut.   Are you mourning them too?   More importantly, would you mourn them if I hadn't mentioned them?   Did you mourn the children who died yesterday?   Or the ones who died every other day?

You're trying to shame me for not thinking this is important.   Did you have any idea about the other children who died in school shootings, as listed in treejoe's wikipedia link?

My standards for whether or not something is important do not boil down to "is it on my TV screen".   If you were extremely concerned about school shootings before this tragedy played out, I can understand your stance even if I don't agree with it.   If in fact your concerned with it because it showed up in the news recently, you're a lemming.

you're being childish.

Treejoe had the decency to back up his argument with statistics to show that this particular incident may actually be part of an underlying trend, which actually leads me to think it might indeed be somewhat important.   Whereas I still think you're just a fool.   Take the lesson.

Last edited by MIHB (Dec 17 2012 2:43:36 pm)

treejoe4

Guest

Re: Connecticut Elementary School Shooting

Besides this year, the last school shooting was in 2008 in the US. But your country has suffered 7 just this year. Maybe the US could start seeing an increasing level amount of public shootings.

Yes, there are many factors leading to deaths. But mass shootings are actually putting a realistic threat on schools in the US, since they are at least a yearly occurrence. Something has to change when small children are put at risk of death from shootings.

I have absolutely no idea why we need anything related to guns in a 'civilized' society. Countries without guns have little risk from these stupid killing tools. Since it's obvious guns are fueling thousands of deaths, why not remove them.

It would probably be a good idea to start small, having lots of small communities with gun free zones.