Are babies alive? (Fetus')

Different55 · Before February 2015

Jabatheblob1 wrote:

Being connected to a machine regardless of being a baby or an 80 year old man isn't alive. If the baby can't live on it's own and is taken out it will die. And after two minutes? I won't bother to even respond to your research if you've looked for two minutes that's just silly.

When was the last time it took more than two minutes of searching on Google just to prove the existence of something? Never. If arguments like that existed, 10 seconds should have been enough.

If you take a two week year old baby out of the womb. Will it survive? Answer is NO because it was never alive. It couldn't possibly be. This is the case up until week 24 when it can actually live on it's own.

If you take an 18 year old baby out of the atmosphere, will it survive? The answer is NO because it was never alive. It couldn't possibly be. This is the case up until year 24 when it applies to NASA and becomes an astronaut that it can actually live on it's own.

You say that they're biologically and medically dead, but you don't cite a single source and from my point of view you're wrong. Fetuses are alive. They grow. There's buttloads of chemical reactions and stuff going on inside there. If they are removed from the environment that they are able to survive in, all those chemical reactions stop and don't just restart when replaced in that environment. That's something that all life has in common, and isn't shared by anything dead, including viruses, at least as far as I know.

EDIT: removed large blob of my post that my phone thought it'd be funny to copy a few dozen times.

Last edited by Different55 (Oct 29 2014 10:38:45 am)

skullz17 · Before February 2015

Diff are you having problems with auto correct? That post didn't sound quite right.

Last edited by skullz16 (Oct 29 2014 9:06:10 am)

Different55 · Before February 2015

;_; this is why I cri evry tiem

Jabatheblob1 · Before February 2015

You don't live in your mothers stomach all your life. That's not even the same as taking someone into the atmosphere. And living on their own being their own internal functions. AS I CITED IN MY SOURCES FROM MY PREVIOUS POST. The post I've been stating all these facts from. Literately just Google what I've been saying you will find everything.

skullz17 · Before February 2015

You don't live in your mother's stomach ever.

Different55 · Before February 2015

Jabatheblob1 wrote:

You don't live in your mothers stomach all your life. That's not even the same as taking someone into the atmosphere. And living on their own being their own internal functions. AS I CITED IN MY SOURCES FROM MY PREVIOUS POST. The post I've been stating all these facts from. Literately just Google what I've been saying you will find everything.

I see you like calling out the facetiously written bits and ignoring the seriously written part. All living things have the trait that I mentioned in my last post, including fetuses, so why aren't fetuses alive according to you?

Last edited by Different55 (Oct 29 2014 4:02:37 pm)

Jabatheblob1 · Before February 2015

i've already explained to you numerous amounts of times why they are not considered alive.

GKAbyss · Before February 2015

Jabatheblob1 assuming it has now been established that abortion is not murder because a fetus is not alive:

Is abortion wrong if it steals from a fetus its future life that is in this hypothetical case very likely to be enjoyable?

Is it a problem if an abortion causes a fetus to feel pain?
update(most recent) I just found this link with a lot of different abortion arguments that may be useful in the future if this thread becomes abortion in general rather than discussion of whether or not a fetus is alive.
http://www.csus.edu/indiv/g/gaskilld/et … ortion.htm

new update:.. actually based on this quote in the op "If you think that a baby in the whom is alive then is abortion murder?", it seems that this link could very well be useful.

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If this thread is only to establish whether or not it is murder, you can ignore this post; I do not have any input on that yet. update: i have input
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"Being connected to a machine regardless of being a baby or an 80 year old man isn't alive. If the baby can't live on it's own and is taken out it will die."

What are fetuses if they are not alive but can die?
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"If you take a two week year old baby out of the womb. Will it survive? Answer is NO because it was never alive. It couldn't possibly be. This is the case up until week 24 when it can actually live on it's own."

Also possibly noteworthy is the fact that apparently the individual members of the portuguese man o war colony cannot live independently:

From wikipedia:
"Despite its outward appearance, the Portuguese man o' war is not a common jellyfish but a siphonophore, which is not actually a single multicellular organism, but a colony of specialized minute individuals called zooids.[1] These zooids are attached to one another and physiologically integrated to the extent that they are incapable of independent survival."

general idea of my argument is that portugese man o war is grouped with other members of their species to gain sustenance. The fetus also depends on another member of its species, its mother, while it is still unborn.

Basically the above quote by you sounds like you are arguing that a fetus is alive when it can survive on its own. Based on this, would it be safe to assume that no member of the portuguese man o war colony is alive?

I also have a question of whether unhatched birds are alive because they are able to not die independent of the mother.

update
edit basically my idea is that your definition of alive is flawed

Last edited by GKAbyss (Oct 29 2014 8:08:44 pm)

Different55 · Before February 2015

Jabatheblob1 wrote:

i've already explained to you numerous amounts of times why they are not considered alive.

No, you've explained numerous times why you believe that they're not alive. But they're not dead. Obviously they're not dead. They die if you take them from the womb and, unlike viruses and other dead things, don't just come back to life when replaced in a habitable environment. That makes them alive.

Fetuses fulfill the listthing you posted as well as a person on life support or in a coma, where there is no debate on their aliveness (still haven't found anyone but you debating that fact, unless you want to toss me a link).

Jabatheblob1 · Before February 2015

It's not my definition. It's the biological definition that any organism needs to achieve to be considered "alive". I am literately quoting everything from biology textbooks and biology websites.

And no birds in an egg are not alive until they can survive on their own...

We make exceptions for humans all the time because we like to consider ourselves special. Which is why a lot of these theories and definitions apply best to animals and outside the human society.

XxAtillaxX · Before February 2015

Jabatheblob1 wrote:

It's not my definition. It's the biological definition that any organism needs to achieve to be considered "alive". I am literately quoting everything from biology textbooks and biology websites.

You might want to watch this:

Jabatheblob1 · Before February 2015

...... skip to 3:43.....

GKAbyss · Before February 2015

What do you mean by survive on their own?

The members of the portuguese man o war colony cannot survive on their own, yet they are known as alive.

Again, what are fetuses if they are not alive yet can die?

Last edited by GKAbyss (Oct 29 2014 11:00:21 pm)

Jabatheblob1 · Before February 2015

It's a fetus.

Different55 · Before February 2015

That's not what he meant.

Jabatheblob1 · Before February 2015

i don't understand then.

XxAtillaxX · Before February 2015

By Jaba's logic, a person on life support is not truly alive. They cannot survive on their own.

Different55 · Before February 2015

He was asking what category fetuses fit into according to you. They can die, so they're not dead. But you say they're not alive. So what exactly are they? Undead?

Jabatheblob1 · Before February 2015

not alive. They are unborn. As stated in the definition.

And yeah a person on life support is truly not alive.

GKAbyss · Before February 2015

Going over list in the video

For metabolism of food and waste:
http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/un … 8.x.html#m
It mentions the fact that a mother provide glucose to the fetus, which I assume is used to produce ATP.

Composed of cells:
It is composed of cells

Grows:
A fetus grows and develops throughout pregnancy I am pretty sure

Response to stimuli:
Based on reading the abstract of this paper it appears that fetuses can respond to stimuli, though I may be reading it incorrectly.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2192322

Reproduction:
This is what is making me question whether this is used to judge the life of a single individual, or whether a species/group of organisms is alive.

A fetus cannot reproduce, however, a child who cannot yet reproduce is probably alive.

I really think that this list is for determining whether species/group of something is alive.
Evolution/adaption:
Again it mentions something that I really think is for determining a species.
Homeostasis: currently searching for something
I again note that due to two of these not having to apply to fetuses, I do not think that this list is meant for determining whether an individual is alive.

I also await the answer of my question as to whether an individual of a portuguese man o war colony is alive.

I assume it is something like it fits all of the necessary requirements from that video, and that you mean homeostasis by it cannot survive on its on. I am curious as to whether the individuals of the colony are for specific processes, which may mean that only some can reproduce, though I am too lazy to research this.

Actually, if I recall correctly, only the queen ant, or at least not every ant, can reproduce. This would mean that the ants that cannot reproduce are not alive.

Another question is hybrids that are unable to reproduce, like a mule.

Last edited by GKAbyss (Oct 30 2014 12:02:48 am)

Jabatheblob1 · Before February 2015

Even tho... it says that all living things needs these 7 things in order to be considered alive you don't believe that a living thing needs these seven things to be considered alive completely disregarding completely two of the seven things let alone not finding evidence on the seventh thing?

GKAbyss · Before February 2015

Then all children are not alive.

Edit: nothing is alive because no individual can evolve.

I have trouble believing that those factors are for determining whether an individual is alive, when it is impossible to apply evolution to an individual.
Also, going to the murder topic. I'd think that killing someone infertile is murder. If you are correct that that person is not alive, then it is not murder to kill that person.
I do admit to fetuses being unable to reproduce, unable to evolve, and my inability to find something on them being able to conduct homeostasis. But this does not invalidate my belief that those factors are not for determining the life of an individual.

Last edited by GKAbyss (Oct 30 2014 12:08:17 am)

Different55 · Before February 2015

Jabatheblob1 wrote:

not alive. They are unborn. As stated in the definition.
And yeah a person on life support is truly not alive.

Even if they're still conscious and everything?

And fetuses can reproduce. They just can't reproduce yet.

GKAbyss · Before February 2015

If it is considering the future, then a fetus can also perform homeostasis in the future.

Jabatheblob1 · Before February 2015

Fetus' do evolve. Regarding if they revolve rapidly is a matter of opinion but you're part of an evolution from your parents, as well as myself and anyone who has two parents. We all are an example of evolution.

Fetus' can't react in their environment considering they can't even feel things for a chunk of their cycle.

They also can't live on their own. Meaning if they were given the opportunity to then they wouldn't even survive. Making them dead.

The reason why people die and are able to be revived is because they are helped by a machine. Something that brought their heartbeat back which returned blood flow to the brain and helped them survive. Making them able to live on their own again. If they hadn't been helped they would suffer from brain damage and wouldn't be alive. Do you agree with that? If the brain is dead are you dead? But the tricky part is you're still having blood circulate everywhere through your body. Everything is alive but your brain. Are you dead or alive?

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