[Comp] BATTLE OF THE BOTS

222hockey222 · Before February 2015

Wow this just turned into a serious competition. Too bad I don't program, but good luck to all competitors.

Processor · Before February 2015

Will participate.
GET READY FOR YO!SCROLL INF. 2 JKJK

Tako · Before February 2015

Processor wrote:

Will participate.
GET READY FOR YO!SCROLL INF. 2 JKJK

You need to sign up on the Google Doc. ^^

lrussell · Before February 2015

I do feel like EE-specific libraries should be disallowed though. It gives certain people an advantage because they already know their way around it and the APIs have had tons of prior testing. Just because it's public doesn't really mean anything because it does add a learning curve for those who haven't used it. Going into unfamiliar territory right before a competition doesn't do any good. Most of these APIs make an action a single function instead of what's really happening. It's over simplifying! A competition should be consistent on what tools you're using.

Last edited by lrussell (Jul 2 2014 4:17:25 pm)

Mylo · Before February 2015

lrussell: I do feel like EE-specific libraries should be disallowed though. It gives certain people an advantage because they already know their way around it and have had tons of prior testing. It just makes it TOO easy. This should be a test to see what you can make with the basic resources.
Some people have a advantage because they already know a language really good - some do not. Life is a ****, huh :b *smile*
And well, even you could have per accident already solved somehow a task which will be here a big help. It's not only the code which counts though.

Last edited by Mylo (Jul 2 2014 4:32:47 pm)

lrussell · Before February 2015

Mylo wrote:

lrussell wrote:
I do feel like EE-specific libraries should be disallowed though. It gives certain people an advantage because they already know their way around it and have had tons of prior testing. It just makes it TOO easy. This should be a test to see what you can make with the basic resources.
Some people have a advantage because they already know a language really good - some do not. Life is a ****, huh :b *smile*

Isn't the point of the competition to show what you can do with what you know? If you don't know the language better, it's ultimately your fault. Just because it's going to give you an easier time doesn't mean it should be allowed. This is supposed to be a challenge.

Mylo wrote:

And well, even you could have per accident already solved somehow a task which will be here a big help.

That sentence makes no sense.

Mylo wrote:

It's not only the code which counts though.

Yes, but it is a major part. The APIs oversimplify what's really happening. You don't learn that way.

Last edited by lrussell (Jul 2 2014 4:22:56 pm)

Mylo · Before February 2015

[snip]
lrussell: Isn't the point of the competition to show what you can do with what you know? If you don't know the language better, it's ultimately your fault.
Just saying, why shouldn't we use the tools we use every time, when creating a bot. Everyone is able to use them, they just need the experience to do so. (To know what to do). If someone uses a code cleaner, why shouldn't he. If someone uses Json.net - why shouldn't he. Same goes for ee frameworks. It wasn't easy to learn how they work, but now as I know - I always use them.
Mylo: And well, even you could have per accident already solved somehow a task which will be here a big help.
lrussell:That sentence makes no sense.
You say some people might have a advantage because they know how to use the framework they use everytime. I meant with that "no sense" sentence (sorry for my bad english at this point) you might also know how to solve problems which might matter here because you already solved them per accident before..

lrussell: You don't learn that way.
I just don't need to repeat 100 times the code i always use for each project. But if you think i don't learn that way.. well.. alright..
Its just my opinion, remember that :o

Last edited by Mylo (Jul 2 2014 4:32:01 pm)

lrussell · Before February 2015

Mylo wrote:

lrussell wrote:
[snip]
Isn't the point of the competition to show what you can do with what you know? If you don't know the language better, it's ultimately your fault.
Just saying, why shouldn't we use the tools we use every time, when creating a bot. Everyone is able to use them, they just need the experience to do so. (To know what to do). If someone uses a code cleaner, why shouldn't he. If someone uses Json.net - why shouldn't he. Same goes for ee frameworks. It wasn't easy to learn how they work, but now as I know - I always use them.

An EE framework is specifically for EE functions, it's not a general purpose library. Things just as JSON.NET are general purpose, serialization. You can give it any data and it puts it into a savable form. It can be used in many different completely unrelated projects.

Just because it's what you have experience with doesn't mean everyone else does. These APIs in reality are giving you an advantage because most of the code isn't yours and you just have to tell them what to do.

Last edited by lrussell (Jul 2 2014 4:27:33 pm)

Processor · Before February 2015

I think it is actually a good thing that bot libraries are allowed. It allows people with less programming experience to be able to compete with more experienced programmers. (Parsing init message anyone?)
As far as I understand, the focus of the challenge is to make the most clever bot, and not the most advanced.
If people are only allowed to use the basic playerioclient.dll only, the most experienced bot makers will probably win, they know how to get started with all the basic tasks already.

The focus of this challenge should still remain to revive the time where people had bot-made levels that were actually enjoyable. We shouldn't let any barriers stop us from reaching that goal.

This shouldn't be a place to show off your programming skills, but your actual bot making skills!

Last edited by Processor (Jul 2 2014 4:28:21 pm)

lrussell · Before February 2015

Processor wrote:

I think it is actually a good thing that bot libraries are allowed. It allows people with less programming experience to be able to compete with more experienced programmers. (Parsing init message anyone?)
As far as I understand, the focus of the challenge is to make the most clever bot, and not the most advanced.
If people are only allowed to use the basic playerioclient.dll only, the most experienced bot makers will probably win, they know how to get started with all the basic tasks already.
The focus of this challenge should still remain to revive the time where people had bot-made levels that were actually enjoyable. We shouldn't let any barriers stop us from reaching that goal.
This shouldn't be a place to show off your programming skills, but your actual bot making skills!

Your bot making skills are dictated by your programming skills, even with an API. But, they do dwindle the requirements down. These APIs require other people to keep them updated and function. What if there is a major EE update and the creator is no where in sight? Then anyone using is "up a stream without a paddle". Yes, our goal is to create enjoyable bot-assisted levels but it should also be a learning experience for people who DO have limited experience in programming. The APIs sugar-coat that. Not to mention they cause a lack of consistency when inspecting the code. Plus, you can't really call the code theirs when using an API because 90% of it won't be (unless you created it).

Last edited by lrussell (Jul 2 2014 4:40:27 pm)

Processor · Before February 2015

lrussell wrote:

Your bot making skills are dictated by your programming skills, even with an API. But, they do dwindle the requirements down. These APIs require other people to keep them updated and function. What if there is a major EE update and the creator is no where in sight? Then anyone using is "up a stream without a paddle". Yes, our goal is to create enjoyable bot-assisted levels but it should also be a learning experience for people who DO have limited experience in programming. The APIs sugar-coat that. Not to mention they cause a lack of consistency when inspecting the code.

1. If you actually want to learn, stop using PlayerIOClient.dll, because 90% of EE bot programmers have no idea how sockets work!
2. Yeah, you take the risk that things might break when you use an API. Porting stuff to another library is however not that hard, usually.
3. Bot libraries leave a LOT of room for people to be creative and write their own code. They don't prevent people from experimenting with the programming language.
4. You can usually differentiate from good quality and bad quality code no matter what library is being used.

Last edited by Processor (Jul 2 2014 4:44:37 pm)

lrussell · Before February 2015

Processor wrote:

lrussell wrote:
Your bot making skills are dictated by your programming skills, even with an API. But, they do dwindle the requirements down. These APIs require other people to keep them updated and function. What if there is a major EE update and the creator is no where in sight? Then anyone using is "up a stream without a paddle". Yes, our goal is to create enjoyable bot-assisted levels but it should also be a learning experience for people who DO have limited experience in programming. The APIs sugar-coat that. Not to mention they cause a lack of consistency when inspecting the code.
1. If you actually want to learn, stop using PlayerIOClient.dll, because 90% of EE bot programmers have no idea how sockets work!
2. Yeah, you take the risk that things might break when you use an API. Porting stuff to another library is however not that hard, usually.
3. Bot libraries leave a LOT of room for people to be creative and write their own code. They don't prevent people from experimenting with the programming language.
4. You can usually differentiate from good quality and bad quality code no matter what library is being used.

1. Not using PlayerIOClient is taking it too far, literally. Only atilla has managed that and it's not even complete.
2. Why use a library at all? That way if something goes wrong only you are responsible for fixing it.
3. Yes, they have room to be creative but it's not the same as using it directly. Things like sending a block, saying something in chat, are all taken care of and that's half the challenge. Getting your bot into a usable state.
4. Yes, but it does blur that line because the library may do something for someone that they couldn't accomplish as well otherwise.

Tako · Before February 2015

If I forbid EE APIs then people are just going to look at the source of an open sourced API and copy their code. What's the use in that? It just wastes their time and takes away the credit.

lrussell · Before February 2015

Tako wrote:

If I forbid EE APIs then people are just going to look at the source of an open sourced API and copy their code. What's the use in that? It just wastes their time.

Because then they're at least exposed to what's going on internally. You forbid them in the first place. Plus, there are many more resources around for bot information if you're not using an API, Capasha's site for example. I feel like the goal of this should be to make more bot assisted levels as well as create new experienced programmers. They should at least understand what's happening before using an API!

Last edited by lrussell (Jul 2 2014 5:04:50 pm)

Tako · Before February 2015

lrussell wrote:

Because then they're at least exposed to what's going on internally. You forbid them in the first place. [...] I feel like the goal of this should be to make more bot assisted levels as well as create new experienced programmers. [...]

It's not my goal here to force experience upon programmers. I will let their curiosity do that.

ktostam450 · Before February 2015

I'm in. Gonna pwn u k

ILoveBacon · Before February 2015

Tako, a while ago, wrote:

Visual Studio

Does it matter which version you get? There is Web, Windows and Windows Desktop versions.
I'm going to make my first bot and own all yo nubs. I got dis.
Then I'll roll away like a cool kid and never make a bot again.

Last edited by ILoveBacon (Jul 3 2014 9:37:00 am)

Tako · Before February 2015

ILoveBacon wrote:

Tako, a while ago, wrote:
Visual Studio
Does it matter which version you get? There is Web, Windows and Windows Desktop versions.
I'm going to make my first bot and own all yo nubs. I got dis.
Then I'll roll away like a cool kid and never make a bot again.

To be honest, I have no idea what the difference is. I've never downloaded VS Web. I use the Windows Desktop version.

Tako · Before February 2015

ktostam450 wrote:

I'm in. Gonna pwn u k

"pwn the UK" or "pwn you, okay?"

If it's the first option, don't bother. Hitler already tried.

Alexthementalone · Before February 2015

Tako wrote:

ktostam450 wrote:
I'm in. Gonna pwn u k
"pwn the UK" or "pwn you, okay?"
If it's the first option, don't bother. Hitler already tried.

That is true,

But in all general seriousness, I hope all competitors do well.

/Alex

TiKen · Before February 2015

Tako wrote:

ktostam450 wrote:
I'm in. Gonna pwn u k
"pwn the UK" or "pwn you, okay?"
If it's the first option, don't bother. Hitler already tried.

Aaaaaaaaaand that's a Godwin point!
(Even if it's not really during a argument ^^)

lrussell · Before February 2015

Right then, let's just compete for competition sake. :3

mrjawapa · Before February 2015

Are you all aware that Brian made a post on the EE blog about this?

Alexthementalone · Before February 2015

JaWapa wrote:

Are you all aware that Brian made a post on the EE blog about this?

Yes, the OP has given credit to Brian for this.

Anch · Before February 2015

Wow this is actually on the blog...

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