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#51 2024-03-29 23:23:11
- Bobithan
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Re: 🕐🕑🕒🕓🕔🕕 Mafia 56 (Clock Mafia) 🕖🕗🕘🕙🕚🕛
Well I was hoping people would doubt your JK claim since you’ve been scummy otherwise so I wouldn’t have to claim and I wouldn’t have to get shot tonight.
This could never have possibly been the plan, because the only person who finds me scummy is you...
Anyways I'm going to take a walk before the sun goes down. Maybe I'll look at the thread a bit on my phone idk
aka towwl
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#55 2024-03-29 23:27:34
- Bobithan
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Re: 🕐🕑🕒🕓🕔🕕 Mafia 56 (Clock Mafia) 🕖🕗🕘🕙🕚🕛
Bobithan tried pinning me down with gotcha! tactics (see my alleged “slip”) and his case has been shaky against me all game
tbh I forgot that from another POV it was possible to see me as anything but town so I just completely forgot you might've been talking about me lol
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#56 2024-03-30 02:01:46
- Bobithan
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Re: 🕐🕑🕒🕓🕔🕕 Mafia 56 (Clock Mafia) 🕖🕗🕘🕙🕚🕛
From my POV it's safer to vote for pqwerty since I know he's scum due to the counterclaim, but I understand from another player's POV it might be a safer bet to vote for Schlog since he's basically outed and it might look like a 50/50 between me and pqwerty, which would be best to resolve with a schlog flip.
--
Schlog advocating for a d1 nolynch:
https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 90#p798690
https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 13#p798713
https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 13#p798713
I understand wanting to nolynch as a misplay new players make a lot and I said Schlog was looking simply inexperienced in this post, but I'm not so sure Schlog is actually inexperienced in mafia just because I think this post (#117) could only really be written by somebody with some mafia experience, and somebody with mafia experience shouldn't advocate a nolynch on d1 with an odd player count. This being a game on a forum after a long hiatus gives scum a bit of room to consider trying generally suspicious things because of a lack of meta, so advocating for a nolynch d1 as scum is not such a crazy thing to do; people are going to be more forgiving (as I was initially).
Speaking of #117, anybody else find it curious he floats the idea of diff likely being the town PR and then 10 minutes later he says he wants to vote diff, even clarifying that he's ok with yeeting pr!diff?? It is basically never the right idea to vote out a player based on inactivity; you should always operate under the assumption that their activity will pick back up eventually due to a mod prod or substitution. He eventually relents and unvotes after N1KF told him a sub was possible (even though I also told him earlier... 
) and he "facepalmed" but of course hammers him anyways at the end of the day because it's funny.
anyways everything i've said is what i would've said if i were town tho tbf most of it was just baiting towwl into responding certain ways, which has taught me that bait and punish strategies like this only work if you don't skim everything and take the game seriously
As for D3 schlog, I found his confession to be particularly genuine based on this post. This does not ring of town trying to troll the game: He's giving an honest retrospective of his scum strategy not working out as he'd have hoped. I just can't see town!schlog starting his scumclaim manufacturing a retrospective of his scum-aligned play.
Also schlog isn't an ****, he wouldn't throw as town like this. It's more forgivable to throw as mafia after a PR catches you, even if there is a bit of wiggle room with a JK callout.
By the way, lets go over that jailkeep on Schlog. Because it's pretty damning and it's why I don't really hold it against him for giving up after I Got Him.
After Buzz flipped follower and I targeted Zumza n1 (thought he was a good choice for maybe getting scum but also maybe preventing a kill. I didn't really have a good grasp of the game n1), and saw that Zumza died anyways, I knew the full setup.
So there's a few possibilities from my POV:
1. Schlog tried to kill n2, but couldn't, because he was in jail.
This I find to be the most likely scenario. I could have jailed pqwerty but I was thinking that the scum team wouldn't have pqwerty perform the kill since he had a lot of heat d2, so I went with Schlog instead.
2. Scum team didn't kill last night to misdirect the jailkeeper, but also Schlog is scum anyways.
This I find to also be possible and definitely the funnier option, but I don't think it's smart for a team with Schlog on it to not try a kill since he already has quite a bit of heat.
3. Scum team didn't kill last night to misdirect the jailkeeper, and also Schlog is not scum.
The only way it makes sense for the no-schlog scum team to try withholding their night kill is if pqwerty is town too (as it is safe to expect a jailkeep on pqwerty or schlog given EoD2), but I know pqwerty is scum because I know I'm the jailkeeper, so this isn't the case.
4. Scum team tried to kill town!Schlog but I protected him.
A schlog kill n2 is just a dumb idea. Me, proc, and N1KF are much, much better targets to keep the waters muddied as much as possible. I do not find this likely at all.
So there. Schlog is scum and an easy vote, and with scum!schlog voted out, Processor's plan guarantees a town victory.
I'll say my piece on pqwerty either later tonight or tomorrow.
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#57 2024-03-30 18:27:22
- Bobithan
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Re: 🕐🕑🕒🕓🕔🕕 Mafia 56 (Clock Mafia) 🕖🕗🕘🕙🕚🕛
Ok here's the outline I have for my pqwerty wall:
I wrote this then went to Target to buy a soap dispenser and milk, among other things. On my ride back home I realized one more thing pretty damning of pqwerty which made me not quite as excited to flesh out this outline, because this kind of completely dismantles his tracker claim....
In post 95, I accidentally call the follower the tracker:
I don't like that he's so hung up about a babysitter when there's only a 25% chance a babysitter is in the game given starting information. Now that we know there's a tracker in this setup, maybe our mafia team has a juggernaut which makes a babysitter a lot more likely from a red POV.
pqwerty even calls me out on it in post 102
How do you know there's a tracker in this setup unless you're a tracker or a mafia rolecop? This is clearly insider information that we aren't privy to unless you misspoke.
Why would he do this as the tracker? If there's a tracker and I'm scum, my slip up would be a pretty scary indication that the mafia rolecop found the tracker. At this point instead of trying to fruitlessly push to vote me out, he absolutely should reveal his N1 results to expedite my lynch, because scum is going to kill him that night anyways and he's not going to be able to share his n2 results. But he does not do that, because he is not the tracker, so there is no need to counterclaim at this point.
pqwerty is not the tracker.
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#58 2024-03-30 21:40:54
- Bobithan
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Re: 🕐🕑🕒🕓🕔🕕 Mafia 56 (Clock Mafia) 🕖🕗🕘🕙🕚🕛
Also, for the "damning" piece of evidence at the end, there's a reason why I put "unless you mispoke" at then end of that message. Because if it wasn't a typo, I would've pushed you way harder than I did. I didn't just go around screaming that someone scumslipped like you did when you conveniently happened to misunderstand me.
Out of all places, why would you take my word for it on a possibly damning typo? At that point, you supposedly had me mechanically confirmed as scum. It's not worth the risk of getting nightkilled and town losing your results. Your play d2 makes no sense as tracker.
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#59 2024-03-31 02:14:36
- Bobithan
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Re: 🕐🕑🕒🕓🕔🕕 Mafia 56 (Clock Mafia) 🕖🕗🕘🕙🕚🕛
Sure, whatever. I'm 100% pqwerty is scum but only 99.9% sure schlog is scum so I'll vote pqwerty for that extra iota of EV but I'll happily hammer schlog as soon as I see 3 votes on him.
!vote pqwerty
Right like imagine I said "OH HE SAID TRACKER INSTEAD OF FOLLOWER" and you said "IT WAS A TYPO" and I kept going "HES SCUM HES SCUM HES SCUM HE SAID THERE WAS A TRACKER" no one would believe me and you could easily defend yourself and any further cases against you would be harder to make.
'
But you could just claim tracker then and there and let town know your damning results. The risk of you dying n2 and town losing your results is way too great for such marginal benefit.
Not to mention you didn't start pointing your finger of suspicion at me until you saw I wasn't giving up on pushing you d2. You were quite =https://forums.everybodyedits.com/view … ]forgiving of my push at the start of the day. How were you planning on getting me voted out if I didn't continue pursuing your lunch d2?
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#60 2024-03-31 02:15:16
- Bobithan
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Re: 🕐🕑🕒🕓🕔🕕 Mafia 56 (Clock Mafia) 🕖🕗🕘🕙🕚🕛
The second link was supposed to go here but I borked it: https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 82#p798782
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#61 2024-03-31 03:35:08
- Bobithan
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Re: 🕐🕑🕒🕓🕔🕕 Mafia 56 (Clock Mafia) 🕖🕗🕘🕙🕚🕛
response wall pt 1
(Exhibit A) You say that I had a bad vote on Buzzerbee but I think you're twisting my words. Do I need to remind you that you and N1KF were also on Buzzerbee D1, so it's not like Buzzerbee was obvious town. We all had reasons to suspect them.
You were pretty explicit about voting for Buzz because of Buzz's vote on N1KF. I find it hard to see Buzz's vote on a "neutral" N1KF to be alignment indicative, and not a compelling motivation for a vote. These kinds of non-reasons for voting while jumping on a wagon are going to be more likely to come from somebody scum aligned. It's an overstepping of an attempt to posture oneself as trying to solve the game, which is going to produce rubbish more often than somebody genuinely trying to make progress for town.
When I point out your mischaracterization of Buzz as voting N1KF due to him being a "nothing" slot rather than a "neutral" slot, I am trying to emphasize that your reason for voting Buzz is not coming from a genuine place. A made up reason is more likely to contain such discrepancies, and I find the distinction between "nothing" and "neutral" to be rather significant; they certainly are not synonyms in this game!
But if we're bringing up dumb votes here, did you suddenly forget that D1 you and N1KF started a wagon on Processor for claiming VT? I was trying to think of reasons for why you voted but it's like, did you two legitimately think that he was a mafia immediately softing VT?
Nah, you can't be serious with this comment. How early is too early for a vote? Should I have waited for more posts from Proc? It was page 1. Should I have waited for page 2, or 3? When is it finally appropriate to start pressuring people with votes?
Not to mention Zumza & N1KF jumping on that vote spooked me so I backed off. Still held my SR of proc until he started posting more, but I wasn't so keen on letting that wagon blossom.
(Exhibit B) I said a no vote was an okay idea to prevent babysitter shenanigans but I preferred to vote. There's a difference between supporting an option and saying it's valid but suboptimal. Everything I said about babysitter I wouldve said as a VT because it's a dangerous role for town and I wanted to appear uninformed as a Tracker.
It's not valid though! Even a random vote is better than a no-vote with 9 players. That's just how the game works, and you should know that. You, in no uncertain terms, called a no vote a potentially "good idea" if we didn't have a case on Buzz, and relented after my essay against it. This doesn't align with your portrayal here on day 3, and it doesn't align with your mafia knowledge.
(Exhibit C) You all were acting relatively townie outside the Buzzerbee and Processor votes. I didn't really get suspicious until D2 when both of u turned on me. I think you gave enough reasons to be town to be townread but once Buzzerbee flipped town I got worried about who was on the BB wagon and tracked you.
This is in reference to the following post:
I’m thinking it’s me, bobithan, Zumza and N1KF town and we just vote among everyone that’s left tbh. It seems like it’s Buzzerbee and Processor as the mafia but Edilights, Schlog, and Diff haven’t posted a ton.
(which, by the way, includes pqwerty placing Proc as his #2 scumread; I thought that was a stupid position to "think that he was a mafia immediately softing VT"?)
Anyways, this post is just something that pinged me as perhaps being TMI. "Relatively" towny isn't really enough for this kind of confidence. But I guess it could just be your playstyle. Regardless, this is one of the posts that first made me start considering scum!pqwerty so I included it in my outline. But yeah this is certainly one of the least convincing "exhibits".
(Exhibit D) I didn't realize that mafia rolecop had the highest probability (50%) out of all the possible mafia PRs. Sue me for not memorizing the clock.
This is in reference to this post (which btw again is you scumreading proc for claiming VT. I thought that was dumb!):
Ah right so I guess I should be worried more about a mafia rolecop. Tbh the fact that there’s a 50% chance of a mafia rolecop makes processor look worse. claiming VT
Edit: processor looks worse that they claimed VT*
I think, in your defense, you forgot that from a tracker POV it's actually a 2/3 chance of a mafia rolecop! But yeah since start of day 2 I knew there was a juggernaut, this post looked very suspicious. Not enough to base my entire case on, but enough to mention.
(Exhibit E) Both you and N1KF said the mafia could've been looking for PRs since you both thought Zumza was softing a PR claim. I said I wouldn't have fallen for the bait. So that's a reason for you two to kill Zumza, but not me. The only other reason provided to kill Zumza was because they were suspicious of me, and that's clearly WIFOM because I can also make the argument that mafia did it to frame me. Essentially you say there were good reasons to kill Zumza but none of them are actually good for me.
I didn't actually start my vote on you due to the PR hunting argument, this is a mischaracterization. The only time I even mention that argument when concurring with a point N1KF made. I didn't even register that as a possibility when I first pushed you, and I still don't care much for the "PR hunt" angle now, as it's not indicative of any particular player as being scum; it just provides a little bit of extra motivation as to why zumza might have died.
This is actually the primary reason for my intial push, despite everybody saying that this is dumb nightkill analysis. I still stand by this. The expectation in killing somebody who sussed you is to just WIFOM your way out of it, which has worked for everybody except for me! If I wasn't such a pain about this, it would have absolutely been a great plan, but I pulled at that thread until you unfurled completely over the next couple of ingame days. Not to mention that Zumza's sus of you could easily have flown under the radar; proc's first chart mislabels Zumza as green on pqwerty and he later admitted that he didn't really register it.
I also just think in a game like this in particular it is generally not dumb to make a nightkill such as this since we're all coming back after a long hiatus, so there isn't much of a meta to go off of. There's more room for risky moves as scum to make a more favorable environment to navigate.
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#62 2024-03-31 16:49:01
- Bobithan
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Re: 🕐🕑🕒🕓🕔🕕 Mafia 56 (Clock Mafia) 🕖🕗🕘🕙🕚🕛
pt 2 - also happy easter
(Exhibit F) This is a matter of opinion. I think your arguments are bad. You don't. In general, assuming a mafia juggernaut exists to prove someone else is mafia is not a good way to prove someone is mafia.
Ok for this point in my outline I didn't really explain anything so let me pick apart the post I've been meaning to:
Zumza wrote:In the very unlikely scenario where Buzz gets lynched and flips Town, I think the best course of action would be to PR on Pqwerty (maybe I, maybe you who is reading this //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/wink).
Is this what made you think Zumza was softing a PR? I don’t know why Zumza would be softing a PR claim when the PRs would want to stay hidden. It’s not like Zumza was under any scrutiny and needed to tell people they were a PR to avoid being voted off. I think it was bait tbh
But if you suspect that the mafia were hunting for PRs then why does that make me a mafia? If the mafia were hunting for PRs and fell for Zumza’s bait then anyone would’ve shot Zumza.
See this is what is making me more suspicious of you, Bobithan. You’re making all these assumptions about how the mafia is acting (“oh there’s a juggernaut” and “oh the mafia were PR hunting last night”) to try to prove that I’m mafia and you’re treating them like facts. The only people who know what the mafia were doing are the mafia so making cases on me based on insider knowledge seems like you either have too much information or that you’re trying to use bad logic to frame me. Why are you so concerned about the babysitter stuff today when it wasn’t a reason for you to vote me yesterday? But now all of a sudden Zumza died and you think I’m some sort of deep wolf? See what I think is happening here is you saw an opportunity to take out Buzzerbee yesterday so you didn’t push a vote on me, and now that Buzzerbee is gone I’m suddenly mafia to you after being one of your top towns yesterday. I think you killed Zumza since you fell for their PR bait and then you tried to put all the blame on me. I think I’m just the next one on your hit list cuz your previous post lists a bunch of inactive people (easy misvotes) as your next targets if you can’t mischop me. Like why is Diff55 your next mafia target if you were so suspicious of Processor yesterday?
!vote Bobithan
teal resposne: I mean, I did know for a fact there was a juggernaut, but I was trying to not be too obvious about it!
red response: This was never my main point, so this argument is null.
gold response: This is such a bizarre thing to attack anyone for in a game of mafia. Of course people are going to view the game differently after two flips (especially when the person changing their mind has an extra morsel of information from the night, but nobody knew that at this point). Buzz flipping town and Zumza dying are going to get me to reassess D1 in a different light. It's like you're expecting me to stick with all my day 1 townreads, and if I ever waver from them that means I'm scum. Just makes no sense at all.
green response: Yeah it lists a bunch of inactive people because half the people in the game are inactive, what do you expect? And it's not just inactive players: You're the one at the top, and as an active player, you are by no means easy to get over the line. I pushed you because I believe you are scum. Simple as.
Also worth mentioning is that you strongly state here that inactives are "easy misvotes", and you still end up going for the diff vote at the end of the day out of necessity when there was a perfectly juicy Schlog on the table.
Then pqwerty writes this in post #114:
But honestly though, if you were so against the stuff I did yesterday then why was your vote on processor (had 1 post at the time) and Buzzerbee over me? From my understanding, wasn't I one of your top town reads yesterday but now that BB is gone it's an issue? I still think what's happening here is you wanted to vote me out yesterday but you saw that you could easily just hop on the Buzzerbee wagon first and then mischop me today by starting the day guns a blazin' with a long list of mediocre (at best) reasons to get me out. You set the pace by voting me and are hoping to get everyone to blindly turn on me without scrutinizing any of your arguments.
Which is a continuation of his attack against me on the grounds that I shouldn't be changing my mind day-to-day in a game of mafia, where vital information is revealed between each day. This doesn't make sense.
Simply saying I have a "bad case" that's "based on hypotheticals and nitpicking and misunderstanding" doesn't make it true. I didn't bother giving an indepth response to all of this d2 mainly out of laziness, but now that I'm in wallmode, here you go.
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(Exhibit G) the options became me and Schlog so it was either, (a) let you guys kill the tracker or someone who could've been solved OR (b) we kill off the guy with one post since even if they were going to be subbed out the next day that wouldn't have helped us D2.
You say that we could solve Schlog d3, but haven't we already? And it's not like Schlog hasn't been acting suspiciously (as I've explained) d2; he was a perfectly reasonable vote at the time as proc and I agreed he was a valid option. voting out a slot like Schlog d2 gives us more information than a null slot that we can pretty safely expect to be substituted out given how quickly the queue for this game filled, which covers our concern about voting power. It's completely unreasonable how sure you are of Schlog being town, really.
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(Exhibit H) I meant to point out that it's dumb to give towncred for not knowing how roles work. I clearly faked not knowing how Juggernaut worked so clearly N1KF could've done the same. But yet, you give N1KF towncred for it and me scumcred for it when no cred should be given to anyone for it.
Uh, but you didn't: https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 19#p798919
There is no contradiction in me giving N1KF town points for it but you not, because I already pointed out the slip by the time you tried yours.
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(Exhibit I) As I said before, Diff was a policy vote. See Exhibit (G).
Yeah, a bad policy 
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(Exhibit J) You pushed me to claim if you don't remember. I was waiting to find both scum before claiming since even though N1KF says trading town's final PR for one mafia is a good trade, I can't say I'm a fan of 1 mafia vs all VTs. I didn't want to be in this situation but you've forced my hand.
1 town PR for 1 mafia is a very fair trade. It's unreasonable to expect that you're going to get both scum out single-handedly, especially when there's reason to believe you're next on the chopping block. Also, you know the Mountainous format exists, right? Vanilla townies are quite powerful on their own.
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(Exhibit K) You have a lot of personal experience with mafia throwing like this but I don't. Most mafia I see when they give up just go silent or self vote. Just because you see something happen a lot doesn't mean everyone else has.
Same can be said about how you're interpreting schlog's scumclaim. But there's quite a bit more weight behind my experience since there's a term for it: "lolcatting". Maybe there's a term for town scumclaiming?
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#63 2024-03-31 17:04:12
- Bobithan
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Re: 🕐🕑🕒🕓🕔🕕 Mafia 56 (Clock Mafia) 🕖🕗🕘🕙🕚🕛
Bobithan did so first, so Pqwerty gets a penalty point because he could just be defensive because he got attacked by Bobithan
The defensive nature of pqwerty's push on me is pretty clear given his progression. If you look at the start of day 2, I immediately push for pqwerty and pqwerty tries to de-escalate without any indication of wanting to push me:
Bobithan wrote:I think pqwerty looks awfully red right now given a zumza death, given zumza very well could have been on pqwerty today if still alive
Bobithan wrote:thinking pqwerty + proc is the team that makes the most sense to me right now. Would be fine with either vote: I'm more confident pqwerty is red but we have more to lose from a green flip on pqwerty than a green flip on proc simply becuase pqwerty's more active.
Zumza was suspicious of me for the babysitter stuff but again i don't think it was that bad of an idea. Buzzerbee agreed with it and they're confirmed town so it's not like the idea was this wildly dumb derp idea that only mafia would agree to do. Also the other town PRs are confirmed to be either a Jailkeeper or a Tracker since BB flipped follower and these are the two PRs on the clock with follower, so maybe since you (Bobithan) and me were the highest trs yesterday the mafia went after someone who was tr'd a little less to avoid attacking someone who was likely to be protected by the Jailkeeper (me and you).
Cuz the mafia can't do anything to prevent a tracker but maybe they can dance around the JK protect. Idk I might be reading too much into the nightkill cuz there could be many other reasons why they went with Zumza over me or you.
Also JK/Tracker shouldn't claim rn. Maybe tomorrow if we ML again today
He then gives it one more shot in this post. He does kind of accuse me of having insider information, which I did indeed had at that point, but he diffuses any sort of accusatory tone by saying I'm "looking in the wrong place"; mafia aint be looking in any place, they're just trying to stir ****!
Only after he sees that I'm definitely not letting this go does he finally place a vote on me in his very next post. This kind of progression does not look like it's coming from a place of trying an organic push against a tracked target, it's pretty clearly a push in response to being pushed. OMGUS, if you will.
Which brings me to this question I asked earlier:
How were you planning on getting me voted out if I didn't continue pursuing your lunch d2?
He said he chose me to track n1 because of my vote on Buzzerbee:
I think you gave enough reasons to be town to be townread but once Buzzerbee flipped town I got worried about who was on the BB wagon and tracked you.
So why didn't he start the day by pursuing that line of attack? Why wait until it was clear I wasn't giving up my push on him? Because he's not a tracker!
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#64 2024-03-31 17:07:14
- Bobithan
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Re: 🕐🕑🕒🕓🕔🕕 Mafia 56 (Clock Mafia) 🕖🕗🕘🕙🕚🕛
But why did Schlog throw? I have no **** clue and it doesnt seem 100% logical in either scenario. I am going to stop interpreting Schlogs throw because it makes my brain hurt
Of course it isn't logical lol, humans are not infallibly rational actors. There doesn't need to be a strategic source of every decision we make. Sometimes scum feel like they've been caught and don't think it's worth putting in the extra effort to keep lying.
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#65 2024-03-31 17:19:47
- Bobithan
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Re: 🕐🕑🕒🕓🕔🕕 Mafia 56 (Clock Mafia) 🕖🕗🕘🕙🕚🕛
BUT here’s the thing. Edilights posted their role card AND they haven’t been modkilled for it (even though posting role PMs is generally against the rules). So maybe Edilights posted a fake role PM created by their partner to instantly clear themselves of suspicion. I mean, we all believed it. This explains the fancy plays Bobithan is going for since they’re essentially a lone wolf but once they take the tracker out, Edilights is free to kill whoever and we’ll just say “oh they’re towncleared so it’s not Edilights”. Like Processor thought Edilights was scummy before the role PM leak and no one questioned the slot since.
When someone pretends to break a rule in a game and there is no action taken subsequently because they did not actually break a rule, other players may speculate in-game whether the lack of action was game-relevant - and indeed, the original user is often intending for the lack of action to appear game-relevant. Players might believe that a game moderator is less likely to take action on particular rule violations when the offender is one alignment versus another. In some cases, the user pretending to break a rule may impact game integrity by doing so. For example, a player who pretends to take an action that would get them modkilled, who is then not modkilled, could argue that the game moderator did not want to modkill their slot because of their alignment or role.
This is why we treat pretending to break a rule as if the rule had been broken.
So I'm not really interested in pursuing this line of reasoning. If you have other arguments for a bob+edi pairing though I'm all ears.
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#67 2024-04-01 00:49:57
- Bobithan
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Re: 🕐🕑🕒🕓🕔🕕 Mafia 56 (Clock Mafia) 🕖🕗🕘🕙🕚🕛
GG game is basically over now. pretty crazy that town pulled through despite a scuffed d1 lynching tracker with like 4 people not participating lol
I got some pretty lucky JK targets which definitely helped against that.
Really unfortunate that edi posted his role card, I wish that did not happen, makes the W feel a bit more hollow.
aka towwl
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