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Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

Joined: 2015-10-09

Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

Oliwaz's contribution is really low, but he just replaced in, and what I've seen from him isn't out of his meta. That absolutely doesn't mean he's town, but I wouldn't straight up accuse him of being scum, at least for now; that being said, if by tomorrow, he hasn't contributed more, he should absolutely be on the chopping block.

Literally like 5 minutes later...

That... isn't what BB said. Lol. Now this is basically just OMGUS - and while this is far from being out of your meta (as town or scum), the fact you added that he scumreads you for "coming in late", which appears nowhere in his post, is weird. It's not like the explanations weren't given here, so this feels dishonest.

Edit to my list of reads of one post ago: Oliverz get lumped into the scumreads, below Gandhi. And since Gandhi pressure isn't exactly happening right now because y'all seem to be out for my own blood (...), there's no reason not to vote Oliverz

!vote Oliwaz144

(for the record, Oliverz = Oliwaz, I just usually know him under that name)

Oliwaz feels like more of a policy vote due to a misunderstanding (either purposely or not) from Oliwaz than a legit scumread. Unless 1 post and about 5 minutes of thought can fully convince you that Oliwaz is one of the mafia  - the mafia who managed to kill both a championship-level player and the cop - then I don't buy this read.

Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

Joined: 2015-10-09

Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

Also MM, to me it looks like you aren't even defending yourself. It's more like a politician running a smear campaign to make the other candidates look worse than a defense. iirc the only defense you gave for being town was that you put a lot of effort into finding Elijah, which while I do admit you did put in a lot of effort, it also takes the mafia a lot of effort to correctly find a cop.

Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

Joined: 2015-10-09

Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

I just hope we're right here, but worst case we have 1 more day before LYLO

Pqwerty

Member

From: 'Murica

Joined: 2015-10-09

Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

I'm hammering at xx:55

Pqwerty

Member

From: 'Murica

Joined: 2015-10-09

Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

I want to sound cool when I hammer so

"We'll discuss it tomorrow, Minimania"

!vote Marshmallow Marshall

Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

Joined: 2015-10-09

Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

Grilyon is a weird kill but I guess no one was ever gonna go for them.

Pqwerty

Member

From: 'Murica

Joined: 2015-10-09

Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

If we accept Oliver/Pqwerty/Mini as town

Mm/Grilyon/Gandhi/BB/2b

Every possible team:

MM/Grilyon
MM/Gandhi
MM/BB
MM/2b
Grilyon/Gandhi
Grilyon/BB
Grilyon/2b
Gandhi/BB
Gandhi/2b
Bb/2b

Every team if MM is town:

Grilyon/Gandhi
Grilyon/BB
Grilyon/2b
Gandhi/BB
Gandhi/2b
Bb/2b

I find BB/2b to be unlikely for the same reason oliver/2b or oliver/bb were unlikely. Shadows had a 3 person PoE which included those three - I doubt he put all of his partners in there. Not as a traitor without a way to communicate, anyways. I'm a bit more skeptical of these two than the ones with oliver bc of some Shadow interactions. But I think it’s still unlikely they are both scum.

I find Gandhi/BB to be unlikely bc of Buzzer putting them as their top town in their first reads list and really hyping them up (calling them a "very high iq mafia member" if they were mafia, which is sort of weird for a wolf to say about another wolf). Usually wolves don't get too close that early.

That leaves us with the following if MM is town:

Grilyon/Gandhi
BB/Grilyon (I'm skeptical of this as a team. BB threw some unnecessary pressure Grilyon's way)
2b/Grilyon (Also sort of skeptical of this as a team for the same reason. Less so than BB/Grilyon bc 2b didn't really throw *as* much pressure Grilyon's way)
Gandhi/2b

Which means it's most likely just 2 of Grilyon/Gandhi/2b at that point. IF mm is town. Which I don't really believe he is. But if he is town then I'd look in that pool.

Assuming the above is true and that Shadow put at least 1 partner in suspicion, the only possible pairs are Gandhi/2B and Gandhi/BB.

Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

Joined: 2015-10-09

Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

So if this is true, there is no case where Gandhi isn't mafia.

Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

Joined: 2015-10-09

Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

So either Gandhi is absolutely mafia, or we made a mistake in assuming that me, Mini, Gikkle, and Oliver were all town and that Shadow only put 1 partner in their suspect list.

Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

Joined: 2015-10-09

Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

I haven't read like the last 400 posts or so, so I'm curious about a few things here, if you could elaborate?
1) Why are you interested in "assuming the above is true", when "the above" is a Gikkle perspective only? You're not Gikkle.
2) Why are other 3, besides Gikkle, assumed Town? I don't mean from Gikkle perspective, I mean from yours.
3) The list has a pre-flipped MM as Town and assumed Grilyon as one of the most likely wolves. One is a red flag, the other is bad look at it's credibility. Why do you hold weight on this list?

It looks weird for you to look at that list so seriously as you do, and frankly - uncritically. Again, you're not Gikkle, you're coasting on his made list for (??) reason which I'd like to learn your reasoning for.

1) I townread Gikkle so I think he's telling the truth when he says this. Something is true regardless of what perspective you view it from, so I don't think it matters whose perspective it comes from.
2) Mini is heavily implied by Elijah to have gotten a green check. Elijah had 2 big reads: MM is 100% mafia and Mini is 99% town, and we were pretty sure one of those reads was the inspect. Since MM didn't flip mafia, the inspect must've been Mini. So Mini is basically cop-cleared. I know I am town, so this just leaves Oliver. The possible partners for Oliver are you, 2B, BB, and Gikkle. Recall that ShadowsEdge was suspicious of 2B/BB/BBJ. So if BBJ was a partner with 2B or BB, then ShadowsEdge is listing both of their partners as suspicious, which would basically be outing their partners when they flipped traitor. If Gikkle and Oliver are partners, then we'd have an MIA mafia since both were subs, which how could it make a kill? If you and Oliver are mafia, then why would you be trying to bus Oliver D2 when you were already highly townread? In all cases, Oliver as mafia doesn't make sense. (This is basically Gikkle's argument for Oliver town).
3) I'm just using up to the "Every team if MM is town" list. I'm not using any of the further info past that list. The information before that is just the assumptions that me/Gikkle/Oliver/Mini are town and that Shadow did not put all their teammates as scumreads.

I value Gikkle's opinion since I think they are town and the logic up to that point seems plausible to me. If I didn't agree with Gikkle then I'd have a different opinion.

Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

Joined: 2015-10-09

Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

So this's your PoE:
-You townread Gikkle.
-You are you.
-You assume greencheck on mini despite the "99%" and "almost lock". What do you think of 311? To me that'd be the next most likely cop check to have occured - the Lumi check.
-You don't believe Shadow would sus 2 wolves in 2B,BB,Oliwaz.

The last 2 are assuming something that's, at best, a 50/50. Although that last one, rule of 3, has a merit.
For me there's 2 chances: either the assumptions are wrong or you and/or Gikkle are wolf.
I can agree with last assumption - that there's probably just 1 wolf in there. But the assumption about Mini seems assuming the less likely.
At the end of the day it looks to me like you're following these assumptions in order to sheep your townread - Gikkle. Can you tell more about your townread on Gikkle? And you should honestly remove that assumption about the mini check from your equation.

Here are my notes on Gikkle. Post numbers are based on where they appear in the ISO, not in the thread.

▼My Notes on Gikkle

Gikkle:
Reasons for town: #4 in ISO is where he finds ShadowsEdge's scumslip. He probably wouldn't point a scumslip out as mafia. His ISO is full of scumhunting. #35 is a logical post, despite it defending Shadow. I assume in #38 he legitimately thought Shadow was town and that's why he was sad to vote them, so it's likely not a scum realizing they're voting the traitor. So it's not fake emotion . #61 is a good explanation why Oliver is town and #62 is equally helpful, especially given the MM flip. #17, #24, #33, #66  makes it look like he's against Gandhi, but at the end of the day he voted for MM. #74 shows he's torn between the two, so it's probably not a big deal.

Reasons for mafia:  #18 I know he said he was trying to bait the mafia, but is it possible that he was just using this as an excuse as mafia for why he didn't die? #55 idk the progression on how he scumread MM. It's sort of out of nowhere. #41 he found out that Mini was most likely the cop read. It could be TMI but idk

I think Gikkle's scumhunting and townleading far outweighs my potential doubts, so he's a townread for me. Also, I disagree that Lumi was the more likely to be the cop inspect. You said so yourself "Anyone would kill Lumi", which I interpret as "anyone would townread and kill Lumi". Not to mention, Mini was one of the wagons that almost lead to a lynch D1. If I were a cop, I'd probably inspect the guy who almost got voted off over the townread town leader. Maybe, like you, Elijah just knew Lumi was town and just didn't need an inspect to confirm it. I'm just saying I think Mini is the read here.

But say none of this hypothetical mattered.

How do you explain your votes on BB and MM when you townread both of them for making deep reads? What are your reads/opinions?

Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

Joined: 2015-10-09

Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

If we accept Oliver/Pqwerty/Mini as town

So what's the story behind the Oliwaz and Pqwerty clears?

So far the only case for Oliwaz being town is the one from Gikkle that I summarized.

I claimed Miller Neighbor with 2B as my neighbor and 2B confirmed the neighbor part. Miller is a town role and I assume people believe my claim.

Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

Joined: 2015-10-09

Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

Let me know if/when you read up. I was able to parse through your message for the most part. Just so I understand it correctly, the vote on BB was to drum up activity and the vote on MM was because (at the time) you thought MM was the inspect?

Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

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Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

Oh and you don't like my reads

Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

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Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

Also is Mini the fruit vendor?

Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

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Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

I mean hey if you think I'm mafia then why don't you just vote me?

Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

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Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

ngl never seen a miller role before
is it common on this site?
I imagine if I had it, I'd claim it at the start of the game. So what's the story of that miller claim middle of the game anyway?

Here's my reason for not claiming at the start

Well since the cop is dead, my role info doesn't help the mafia anymore.

I'm the Miller and I didn't want the mafia to know there was an investigative role to hunt down, so I kept my role a secret. I am no longer anti-town.

Why not claim Miller? Investigative is already something mafia would probably reason exists, and not claiming Miller means the cop could have checked you and wasted an action.

I was really hoping the anti-town claim would deter this because I really didn't want this worst-case scenario to happen. The best strategy would've been to claim miller and then have everyone else claim cop, but that strategy hasn't been accepted in past games when I suggested it so I figured claiming anti-town would just be best.

Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

Joined: 2015-10-09

Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

anyway, good morning everyone

i received a fruit (:

It seems unlikely that the Traitor is also a Fruit Vendor, and the other mafia is the one with the factional kill so he probably can't do it either.
fruit vendor should be clear I think.

The traitor is dead, btw

Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

Joined: 2015-10-09

Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

Ohh..
So let me get this straight.
You guys don't believe a Traitor would their mates in their scumreads despit not knowing who their mates are? What is wrong with you guys? srsly..

Are you not reading the OP?

The mafia is confirmed to have an Traitor. The traitor is an member of the mafia that knows their teammates but can not communicate with their faction through other channels.

The traitor knew their team. The team didn't know the traitor.

Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

Joined: 2015-10-09

Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

My bad, I confused it the opposite direction for a moment.
Anyhow, funny question coming from someone who townreads someone on the basis of you yourself not knowing about Traitor being written in the OP nor noticing any of the early game talk about it
Don't be a hypocrite

Wait, what? I knew there was a traitor this whole time. Where did you get that I didn't?

Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

Joined: 2015-10-09

Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

To fill you in, Gikkle noticing that 2 mafia knowing each other was not listed in the OP lead to ShadowsEdge making an obvious fake claim, which lead to Shadow getting chopped. If Gikkle didn't make that observation, Shadow would probably still be here. If Gikkle was mafia, they probably would've kept that observation hidden so that they didn't accidentally kill their traitor buddy. Is believing in someone who started a chain of events that lead to the death of a mafia a bad reason to believe they are town?

Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

Joined: 2015-10-09

Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

Are you trying to get me to stop townreading Gikkle?

Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

Joined: 2015-10-09

Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

Am I really misinterpreting leading the town and leading to a mafia chop as not town-indicative though? There's gotta be some towncred there. Like why would a mafia lead the town and kill off one of its own? We were absolutely sinking D2 and mafia just had to sit there and watch, but Gikkle picked up the reigns, activated the town, and lead to a scum chop.

Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

Joined: 2015-10-09

Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

If I subbed into this game where there's majority lynching and an absolute dead chat, I would try to maintain that silence because mafia would be thriving in that. fwiw

Pqwerty

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From: 'Murica

Joined: 2015-10-09

Posts: 2,078

Re: Mafia 52 Game Thread (GAME OVER)

Ok I guess I have no read on Gikkle then since all my reasons are level 0.

When you do read up please tell me your level 100 reads/opinions because I obviously have no idea what I'm doing