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mutantdevle

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From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

TaskManager tell me why I should vote norwegianboy and not you.

You took too long to reply and I got bored.

!vote Norwegianboy

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mutantdevle

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From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

I posted my vote without reasoning to make it clear I had come to that decision before any further posts from TaskManager. This post will contain my reasoning:

I've preferred Norwegianboy over TaskManager for a while now based on the skim reading I mentioned earlier. When I read the thread back properly, I continued to find Norwegianboy consistently scummy whereas, whilst I still think TaskManager is scummy, he's actually had some posts that I've liked. I still plan on pursuing my scum read on TaskManager tomorrow just as I would pursue norwegianboy if Task got/gets lynched. Drawing the votes this close to the deadline runs the risk of having them both lynched. Originally, this was making me want to vote TaskManager to avoid such situation. However, I scum read both of them and duel lynches aren't too bad in the early game so I'm not actually too worried about the votes being a tie. That said, I fully expect those who have not voted yet to resolve the tie.

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mutantdevle

Moderation Team

From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

the more i think about it, task seems less scummy and norboy seems more scummy.

Could you elaborate on this? It's important that I understand the reasoning for your u-turn.

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mutantdevle

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From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

everyone who needed to vote just now voted.

Huh, for some reason I thought processor hadn't voted.

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mutantdevle

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From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

in the first quote he avoids a simple question form jawapa he ocoudl easily answer

the other 2 quotes are mutant askign task to vote norboy or not and ntot giving task a freacking chance to asnwer

I could answer the question, but it's irrelevant at this point in time. I do not wish to start a conversation about jawapa as it would distract from more pressing issues. In the meantime, I only wish to document my thought process so that if/when we talk about jawapa later it is clear that my thoughts have not come from nowhere.

I don't understand why you find me voting norwegianboy before taskmanager could answer as scummy. Had I voted TaskManager, yes, I'd agree that's scummy. I'd have been giving him a chance to defend himself and then not following through with that. However, whilst I may have been presenting the question as "say something to make me trust you or I will lynch you", that's not what happened. What I wanted to do was vote for norwegianboy; however, I was hesitant because it would have tied the votes. As a result, I asked TaskManager the question in the hopes that he'd say something that would give me reason to commit to norboy as I felt that my vote had to be on TaskManager because of the potential tie situation. But, upon reflection of my reads, I concluded that the tie really didn't matter as much as I thought it did and that I should not just rely on other people to help me commit to my reads. So i made my decision.

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mutantdevle

Moderation Team

From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

I'm gonna make a post later (when I feel better) of my cases for/against TaskManager so that he can respond to them and hopefully allow me to make a conclusion on him.

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mutantdevle

Moderation Team

From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

@jawapa, I skim read some stuff in the thread so I know that diff has already addressed your reasons for scum reading me on my behalf so I'm not going to bring that up unless on my reread I have something to add, but I'd just like to ask what made you change your read on me here, where you called me town, to here, where you seemingly began suspecting me again?

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mutantdevle

Moderation Team

From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

everyone who needed to vote just now voted.

Huh, for some reason I thought processor hadn't voted.

you'd easily miss his vote tbh, i almost did when i was writing my summary/analysis post

kinda sneaky

I agree with processor in that I do not find his vote sneaky. My mistake was that I thought this post said processor instead of Onjit and subsequently didn't register when you voted for Crybaby. When I voted for Norwegianboy (causing the votes to be a tie) I was of the mind that there were 2 votes left to place.

What were your reasons for claiming processor's vote was a sneaky one?

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mutantdevle

Moderation Team

From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

What made you think peace was suspicious here: https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 49#p772849
But town here: https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 11#p773011

What made you think I was just being idiotic here: https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 37#p772737
But scum here: https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … 11#p773011
When I haven't done anything. I was told nothing I said mattered since I already cast a vote. So I haven't bothered posting much.

This post by jawapa has made me realise that proc's reads on both I and peace have both flipped without explanation. There has been a lot of content from each of us since Proc's original read but it would be nice if he explained his reads more.

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mutantdevle

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From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

There's nothing that he's said or done to make me think he's scum. But also nothing to make me think they're town.

When it comes to peace, in my opinion, this makes him town.

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mutantdevle

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From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

he wasn't acting scummy

He kinda was though. If you genuinely don't think norwegianboy was acting scummy then how does that affect your opinion of those of us who voted for him? I can't remember if you've explicitly said as such, but I get the impression that you town read me. I don't understand how you could think both that norwegianboy wasn't scummy and that I am town because what would my motive be for voting him if he wasn't showing scummy behaviour?

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mutantdevle

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From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

peace, do you have anything to say about the explanation I gave to your issues with me?

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mutantdevle

Moderation Team

From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

Okay, here is my case for/against TaskManager:

▼Against

I take issue with TaskManager's wasted vote because it shows a lack of care for game solving.

but its funny and seeing how it **** you off right from the start adds to the fun

Trying to **** people off is not what I consider townie motivation as it does not benefit the town in any way. Gaining fun out of it is a selfish motivation that is more common among scum than it is town.

well i'd think if its a 50/50 case with both opponents tying then that would be faster, but yeah since there's no night kills nowhere to rush either

Speed shouldn't be a concerning factor. The more time we have for discussion the more it benefits us. Task's approach here shows a lack of towny mindset when it comes to thinking about discussion time.

i want to see who'd follow through with either side of the wagon and what would be their reason for doing so

And what conclusions have you made thus far?

we're not even 24 hours into the day, could you not

Here he seems surprised that he should have been making conclusions. This is also concerning as the whole point of the game as town is to be making conclusions. Conclusions need not be definitive, but he should at least have been forming opinions.

there wasn't even enough time for some people to take any stance on all of this, 2b buzzer and ele for example
so not much to draw conclusions from

A few people not giving their opinion is no excuse for not being able to form your own conclusions. It is clear that TaskManager recognises this when he later responds to my push to say what conclusions he has made so far. This post also indicates that what he posts later was not what he was thinking at this time. Aka, he only forms conclusions because I asked him to.

diff seems to pop in and make random comments about norboy just to seem active, i dont agree with the post where he says norboy gets himself killed deep into the game, that is factually wrong

ele is sheeping and only made a post to avoid getting prodded, i dont remember who pointed this out but her initial post could be perceived as a "see, im active and posting! now bye im gonna lurk", though that may not necessarily be the intent

norboy: i feel like town!norboy could have made a more fierce response to my vote in his very first posts in this thread, instead he just shrugs it off
im not sure what to think about that though, i know how town!norboy would rather prove his point than survive a wagon
i also dont like how he twisted my words on one occasion and i dont understand what is he trying to achieve by posting memes in the thread
this post is a red flag for me

peace: i didnt play and didnt read the recent game where peace was mafia so my beliefs here may be outdated
peace is a town lean for me because he seems devoted to this game given how he overreacted initially and how much he posts
i dont think a generic scum would be this devoted to a game

am neutral on 2b

proc should post more

thats what comes to mind so far

These are trash conclusions. First of all, a lot of them are just commentary and he doesn't take a stance. Secondly, what he says isn't too relevant to reactions to him voting for norboy and is a more general read of the game. Thus, it shows that he really doesn't care about game solving based on his vote and what he said about that is a bunch of ****.

(though it'd be a mislynch)

Why do you deem that necessary to point out?

In my opinion, criticising someone for saying they are town is just as inane and stupid as claiming you're town. This criticism extends to everyone that was like "eyy Crybaby, whatchu doin' that for?"

this feels like classic fence sitting

This is quite ironic coming from someone whose ****, I assume, is quite raw from the amount of fences he's been sitting on this game. It's also quite an odd criticise to make of 2B55 since he always does this and even acknowledged he was sheeping in the post that Task is criticising.

▼For

as i said, it is to get things going and whats a better way to start the game than by instantly venturing into a drama, doing scummy **** and seeing how people react to it?

Task has consistently stated that part of his motivation for the random vote was to get the game going which is always useful. I myself have been wrongly voted for trying to generate discussion. I also feel that in my previous criticisms of TaskManager that I was not factoring in this motivation as I literally did not notice he said this until I reread his iso.

to be honest, recently i was more focused on looking for scum among other players, notably 2b and crybaby, i didnt bother much with looking through norboy's late posts because i voted him anyway and cant revert that
dont vote me because i want to stay in the game, theres no other reason to that part
im not very confident in norboy being scum but if youre asking why vote him then theres this from my earlier post:

norboy: i feel like town!norboy could have made a more fierce response to my vote in his very first posts in this thread, instead he just shrugs it off
im not sure what to think about that though, i know how town!norboy would rather prove his point than survive a wagon
i also dont like how he twisted my words on one occasion and i dont understand what is he trying to achieve by posting memes in the thread
this post is a red flag for me

and i didnt like it how he dismissed by statement simply because i gain something from that whole drama
here

I do really like this post by TaskManager and it's a large factor as to why I decided to vote Norwegianboy instead of him. I agree that Task had really stepped up his game solving towards the end of day 1. The problem is that he just doesn't have many conclusions to show for it.

Conclusion:
- Task's vote at the start of day 1 mostly showed a lack of care for game solving.
- Task claims that he had also intended to get the game moving which was a valuable townie thing to do.
^ This motivation was not what he emphasised the most when he was later scrutinised for the vote.
- He seemed surprised that he should have been making conclusions.
- His few conclusions later on were not very related to the vote.
- He has shown a general lack of care for solving the game.
^ He did seemingly care more about game solving towards the end of the day.
- He's still not made any substantial conclusions.

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mutantdevle

Moderation Team

From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

It's because I sometimes lack the time to explain everything.

Well now we're asking you to explain them.

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mutantdevle

Moderation Team

From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

i want to see who'd follow through with either side of the wagon and what would be their reason for doing so

And what conclusions have you made thus far?

we're not even 24 hours into the day, could you not

I think it's this post that makes me scum read Task the most. I just don't understand why he is so surprised/annoyed that I'd expect him to make conclusions regardless of how much time had passed. As town we should constantly be trying to form opinions and this post from him is indicative that he just isn't approaching the game with a townie mindset.

I think one thing we have to keep in mind though is that scum possesses the ability to scum hunt in this game. They genuinely don't know who is scum and who is town because of the second team. So that makes me wonder how far I should be reading into Task's lack of willingness to form reads. However, I overall do consider Task to be scum right now.

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mutantdevle

Moderation Team

From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

asumign you mean this one answering questiosn is always good its not goign to distract poeple from norweg/task it just gives us informaton to use on D2 when either norweg/task were lynched

So are you satisfied to my response as to why I didn't wait for TaskManager to answer before voting norwegianboy?

As for my refusal to talk about jawapa, first of all, I think it's a bit harsh to scum read someone for that alone. But I'd also like to elaborate on my reasoning: When I say it would be distracting to talk about it now I specifically mean it will be distracting to me. If I say why I have issues with jawapa he will want to reply to them and I will want to talk to him about it. As a result, I'd be focussing on solving jawapa's alignment. I don't like to try and solve everyone's alignment at once (primarily because it makes your reads weaker unless you can devote a lot of time to it which I'm not able to do). Instead, I focus in on people, solve their alignment, and then move on to the next person whilst allowing reflecting on previous reads. I'm sure this is something that is very evident as, despite throwing out a few criticisms of various people here and there, I've not been focussing on them.

I'm not focussing on jawapa yet because a lot of the things that he's said depends on the alignments of norwegianboy and taskmanager. So basically, he's next on the list. Taskmanager doesn't need to flip before I start questioning jawapa, but I do need to be beyond reasonable doubt of task's alignment one way or another and I'm not at that stage yet. Once I have decided whether or not I am voting taskmanager today I will move on to talk about jawapa. Whilst I, and everyone else here, is more than capable of discussing multiple issues at once. I think it's more beneficial and more structured to take things 1 at a time.

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mutantdevle

Moderation Team

From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

Yo, why the **** are we lynching proc, what's wrong with y'all?

I wanted proc to speak up just as much as the rest of y'all but you're pressuring him with votes that you can't actually take back... that is just utterly stupid.

I've only skim read the thread so I don't know if he's done something particularly scummy but from what I see all he's done is respond the pressure on him and now he's getting lynch for it. Like calm down you lynch hungry lunatics.

!vote TaskManager

I feel like my hand has been forced here. I haven't actually reached my threshold of 'beyond reasonable doubt' on taskmanager that I would have liked to but in a situation of proc vs taskmanager I'm voting task 100% of the time. There is no way we should ever be lynching proc before task.

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mutantdevle

Moderation Team

From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

Diff why did you keep bringing up the Norboy being inno child in D1

I feel like talking about this kind of thing has been a waste of time for a while now. If diff isn't going to form reads based on people finding norboy scummy, and no one is scum reading him for finding norboy townie, then there's legit no point talking about it.

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mutantdevle

Moderation Team

From: Hell

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Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

ill probably vote for proc within the next hour unless he actually answers the questions

This is an awful stance to take. 1 hour is too short of a time span to expect someone to answer you.

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mutantdevle

Moderation Team

From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

!vote processor

I suspect a couple people, but I'd like to see his role more than anyone elses atm.

This really feels like jawapa is just voting processor because processor has expressed suspicion of him.

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mutantdevle

Moderation Team

From: Hell

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Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

Well I’m going to be working for most of the day and I suppose I’ve run out of benefit of the doubt to give, so

!vote Processor

This is also a terrible vote. He responded to the things you asked of him. You've not expressed a scum read on him. Your only issues were the 'dodging' of the questions. He stopped dodging them and you still voted. Why?

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mutantdevle

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From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

And to be honest, proc hasn't even been dodging questions.

This is what dodging a question looks like:

I do take issues with jawapa for separate reasons though.

Would you like to explain?

When it's more relevant, yes.

Proc hasn't dodged any questions. He said some things, we asked him to explain, and he asked for clarification on what we wanted him to explain whilst also making other useful posts. The process took a while because of his slight inactivity.

Proc's response to all the pressure has made me town read him. It's just a shame so many people have prematurely voted for him.

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mutantdevle

Moderation Team

From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

Up until then I thought we had like. Low single digit hours left just based on how people were posting and placing their votes.

This is exactly what bothers me. We literally have/had plenty of time to figure things out today. If this discussion with proc was taking place with 12 hours left I'd understand the votes.

ill probably vote for proc within the next hour unless he actually answers the questions

im leaving now so im gonna vote bc idk how much time ill have before the day ends

!vote proc

Well I’m going to be working for most of the day and I suppose I’ve run out of benefit of the doubt to give, so

!vote Processor

!vote processor

I suspect a couple people, but I'd like to see his role more than anyone elses atm.

Proc I'm done
This is straight up **** at this point

!vote Processor

This is what forcing a game state looks like.

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mutantdevle

Moderation Team

From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

That's definitely not the case. If I was worried about being being suspicious of me, I'd focus on you. You seem like more of a threat to me then processor does.

I don't have a bunch of discussion and votes on me that you can opportunistically jump on.

He's trying to get task lynched, and it sounds like he'd then move on to Ele. You've said you've address me after task.

Which could serve as reason as to why you'd want to keep task alive and lynch the opposing wagon even if you weren't scum with task.

He replied to them, but I wouldn't say he's answered them.

Then tell him what you find unsatisfactory about his answers before you vote him...

Yes, he has. He completely avoided some of the questions for a bit. When he was pressured into replying to them, have gave a **** answer, and tried starting a wagon on taskmanager... multiple times.

I find nothing **** about any of the answers he has given. In some cases, he simply cites his previous answers which gives a new perspective to what he said previously.

Eg:

Both mutant and peace have shown genuine interest in solving the game

peace also voted on Task, who is my scumread at the moment

When I first read this, I read it as a simple stating of his reads. However, when proc said this WAS his explanation, I realise what he's saying is "I no longer scum read peace and mutantdevle BECAUSE they have shown interest in solving the game". What further explanation is needed than that other than asking him to point to specific posts that made him believe this? No one asked him to do that.

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mutantdevle

Moderation Team

From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 40 - Russian Roulette Mafia Victory!

Also, other than apparently not avoiding questions, what has proc actually done that's scummy?

Nothing.

On the other hand, even before all of this he was at least contributing to the game. And since the pressure he has explained several of his thoughts in detail.

See this post for my points against TaskManager.

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