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#51 2019-07-29 19:45:24

Zumza
Member
From: root
Joined: 2015-02-17
Posts: 4,511

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

Atilla, indeed, did a big mistake in trusting NVD to do the right thing.

Xenonetix wrote:

Patreon that pays currently $341 a month is enough to make "profit". [...] Even the $341 we are receiving, I'm still doing what I can to split between current staff.

You don't receive only $341. As LukeM mentioned, there are around 20 supporters who use PayPal to send you money instead of using Patreon, in exchange of the Patreon benefits.

Calling Atilla for omitting things, while doing the same thing a few paragraph later, it's not sending a right signal.


Everybody edits, but some edit more than others

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#52 2019-07-29 20:00:25, last edited by LukeM (2019-07-29 20:01:26)

LukeM
Dev Team
From: England
Joined: 2016-06-03
Posts: 2,911
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Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

Zumza wrote:

As LukeM mentioned, there are around 20 supporters who use PayPal to send you money instead of using Patreon, in exchange of the Patreon benefits.

(just to be clear, a while ago I mentioned that there were more people in the Patreon discord than there were Patrons probably because some people pay directly through PayPal because they had problems with Patreon, not sure how many people there are that do this, how much we get from it, or even if this is still the case)

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#53 2019-07-29 20:25:46

Slabdrill
Formerly 12345678908642
From: canada
Joined: 2015-08-15
Posts: 3,358
Website

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

Xenonetix wrote:

Kirby, Master1, & Tiralmo are the Campaign Curators.

What is the role of a campaign curator in a game that doesn't have any campaigns?


suddenly random sig change

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#54 2019-07-29 21:53:21

skullz17
Member
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 6,575

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

Slabdrill wrote:
Xenonetix wrote:

Kirby, Master1, & Tiralmo are the Campaign Curators.

What is the role of a campaign curator in a game that doesn't have any campaigns?

Campaigns will be replaced by featured worlds, so they will probably be responsible for those //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/smile


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thx for sig bobithan

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#55 2019-07-30 05:45:29

XxAtillaxX
Member
From: Canada
Joined: 2015-11-28
Posts: 4,009

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

I didn't get the chance to reply to Xenonetix since I just got back to Canada. there's plenty of inaccuracies, speculation and outright lies from Chris Lamb.

I don't want to write a wall of text like he has without any specific quotes. I would rather not write one at all, honestly. I'm hoping people take the time to actually view responses rather than blindly siding with and believing someone who legitimately should be telling the full truth and nothing but the truth, since he has the most influence on the game and people look up to and trust him given his position.

I don't blame people for doing so, but it is even more unfortunate for those who don't have a large voice. I am assuming a lot of people do believe his statements to be fully accurate considering how many woots his post has, so I figure it may be worth replying to and correcting the glaring errors in his narrative.

Xenonetix wrote:

It's interesting that you conveniently leave out the part of the story where Chris Benjaminsen claimed he was unable to find developers to work on Everybody Edits, and decided to back out of any deals in terms of ownership. I have tried to make contact with him on multiple occasions since becoming owner. I am relatively certain that he no longer has any interest in taking control of the game.

I didn't leave out any part of the story where Chris Benjaminsen claimed he was unable to find developers to work on Everybody Edits.
In fact I stated just that, here's a quote from my reply above which you apparently didn't read. You can CTRL-F it yourself, Xeno.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

Chris was on holiday in Hawaii, and despite that he was trying to find full time developers to work on the next Everybody Edits. He managed to find one within the month after contacting him, and they ultimately ended up declining the offer after initially having accepted it. A few months later (approximately around 3) without being able to find any full time developers, it's decided that it'd be best to deal with hiring developers after he's back from holiday, which was in a few weeks.





Xenonetix wrote:

I would love to hear what the unique aspects were, considering you never mentioned any of those, but as far as I know, your deal was being discussed for an amount close to $15,000 to purchase the game (with plans to split this between development staff), and then $250,000 investment to making it successful again.

I have absolutely no idea where you're getting the $250,000 figure. and the $15,000 figure was the initial proposal, considering there were about 8 staff which would have left everyone, including yourself with $1,875. Chris later offered to pay $2000 upfront instead. I thought it'd be better to have shares, and split it between current and previous staff for their effort, with which they'd receive more depending on how successful the franchise becomes in the future, since they helped get it there.

I don't know how much you've paid to your staff. I know you haven't paid Phinarose very much. I could only speculate as to why, perhaps because you disliked her the most and weren't receptive to any of her ideas.

Would you mind citing where that $250,000 figure originates. I would also like to know how much you've paid your staff. I don't really believe that your Patreon goal of "funded server hosting costs" really amounts to the $400 figure because I know for a fact that Player.IO asks for about $75 a month.


Xenonetix wrote:

NVD, along with many other staff, put development of EE completely on hold during 2017, firmly in the belief that the game would be passed back to Chris Benjaminsen, and I was the only person to say we still had to maintain some levels of updates or we'd lose the community entirely. I did everything I could, as the developers no longer wanted to work on the game, so I did all I could to take responsibility of updating into my own hands, which, at the time, was purely to release new Campaigns. It was only after I had been preparing various campaigns, and planning updates for the campaigns, that the staff of the time renewed their interest in updating the game, whilst promises of Chris being in control again by September, October, November, and December of 2017, kept being pushed back.

Well, that's an absolute lie. NVD did not halt development, he spent a majority of his time offline, however.  I assisted with development alongside Jesse and Showpath, new graphics were made and several updates were pushed. You can look through the update history and activity in the repositories to see that for yourself.

You have had over a year on the other hand and have been proactive with campaigns and yet halting the development of the flash game purely on the promise of "Everybody Edits Universe" which, to date, over a year later, has not had an alpha and is less developed than the Unity project. In addition to that, you've actually had funding whereas Nou had nothing except for in-game profits.


Xenonetix wrote:

Atilla insisted that he should be the only one to communicate with Chris Benjaminsen, claiming that anyone else communicating with him could jeopardize the deal. We all respected that instruction, and it was only when NVD finally realised the deal was unlikely to ever come through that he broke down and wanted to be rid of the game. Atilla can try to claim that it's somehow my fault that Benjaminsen is not currently the owner again, but history suggests that the only two individuals that could possibly be to blame for that could be Atilla and Chris himself.

I insisted that you shouldn't message him because I feared you would scare him off with your logician ways, and how you **** off everyone else in the Slack chat on many occasions, and continue to be a pain in the **** with people off today.

"When NVD finally realized the deal was unlikely to ever come through that he broke down and wanted to be rid of the game."

He literally presumed control over it again and decided to have a childish fit rather than addressing what he believes to be the problem in a substantive way, and not informing anyone else in the staff that was the reason why he decided to toss the game into another member of the communities hands? On top of this, he had full knowledge over the conversations between Chris and I, and he very well had known Chris was a) very receptive, and b) willing to seal the deal.
He could have easily contacted Chris himself if he had any concerns or questions, but he never did, rather he decides to toss the game into a random friends hands, that would be Emalton.


Xenonetix wrote:

I don't care about my ego, and never have done. I've attempted to help this game for the better over all 10 years of its existence, and not once have I asked for gratitude or even monetary gain. I'm not sure which world you're living in where a Patreon that pays currently $341 a month is enough to make "profit", but I certainly could not live on $341 a month, and it's only because I do freelance sheet music work in addition to working on Everybody Edits that I make enough money to live. I've had to move house multiple times just to afford to live and not become homeless, currently living in an 8 person shared residence, which I hate, and the rent is £100 a week, down from £510 a month at the last place I lived. I would much rather live alone again, in a place where I could work in peace, and where my housemates don't steal my food and drink, which has occurred. Even the $341 we are receiving, I'm still doing what I can to split between current staff, which NVD never did, and kept all the money for himself, never once paying any of the other staff.

You don't care about your ego, except you literally claim in the next sentence that you've attempted to help this game for the better over all 10 years of its existence. A bold claim for someone who apparently doesn't have an ego to stroke, you honestly don't think you're patting yourself on the back a bit too much there, attempted to help the game over all 10 years of its existence, for free and without asking for gratitude? Wow, what a hero.


Xenonetix wrote:

I honestly don't know where the "ego-trip" notion of my personality even came from. As far as I can tell, it's something Atilla has been perpetuating ever since I became owner, and only because Atilla disagreed that I should be owner, but many people have suggested that if NVD had remained owner, EE would have been dead by February 2018, and if Emalton had become owner, it would have been dead by Summer 2018. At least I gave it more longevity than either of those options.

You don't know where the ego trip comes from? You literally fired several staff because they dared criticize you.

1. You fired Phinarose for trying to reason with you and tell you to stop stirring up drama in the community forum.
2. You fired Gosha for disagreeing with one of your assessments over a bug which he was absolutely correct about.
3. You fired Luke for the same reason as above. You later re-hired him after he apologized to you.
4. You demanded Phinarose to apologize to you before you'd consider making her a "lower-ranking" moderator, after you fired her for telling you to stop inciting and stirring drama.


Xenonetix wrote:

In short, I have never been egotistical about owning or developing this game, and I have certainly never made profit from it. If anything, I have made immense losses in my life trying to keep the game afloat, purely in the belief that we could make something great out of it in future, with the developments of Everybody Edits Universe.

You have profited from it, just because you conceive of some losses from it like being suicidal doesn't mean you've never financially profited from it.


Xenonetix wrote:

The only owner I believe possibly could have continued doing a better job than I did was Nou, and Atilla is the reason a mutiny occurred to push Nou out of that position. I do not believe Benjaminsen has any interest in receiving the game now, or at any point this year, even before all the hacking. People also seem to forget that Chris Benjaminsen was owner of Player.IO, and is the entire reason behind many of the security issues so many people are so quick to blame me of. As owner of PIO, it's entirely his fault in the first place that PIO does, as Atilla has pointed out, set passwords to be lowercase before hashing them, and for some reason now I'm being blamed for that when it's completely out of my control?

If you believed Nou could have possibly continued doing a better job than you were doing, why didn't you hand the game to him instead? I don't take responsibility for Nou deciding to resign. I would have preferred he didn't rather than ending up in the situation we've had for the past year and a half. Benjaminsen likely doesn't have any interest in reviving the game now considering what it has been subjected to, and keeps being subjected to.

You then proceed to blame Chris Benjaminsen for the security issues Player.IO and then wonder why he wouldn't have any interest in discussing reviving the game with you? As of late, you have never once demonstrated conclusive evidence that the game was compromised in any way shape or form because of Player.IO. You wonder why people criticize you when you fail to, or refuse to be transparent with what drew you to such conclusions.


Xenonetix wrote:

Like it or not Chris Benjaminsen is not a "player" of Everybody Edits. He made the game for the creative outlets of others to come out and develop. The moment the game became too large for him to handle on his own, he passed it on to Brian Meidell, and went off to do other projects in his life, which have indeed been successful. He is an excellent business-man, but I do not believe he is a good Community Specialist. He would try to avoid talking to large groups of people whenever he could, and the largest group that I'm aware of him speaking to simultaneously was EX Crew in 2011.

You admit that he's been successful in other projects in his life, which includes his game development company that has had trending games with millions of plays in the past 2 years. You go on to state that, while he is a good business man that he would not be a good "Community Specialist". I couldn't begin to extrapolate what that title you've given yourself to mean. I assume by good community specialist is joining the community discord server and stirring up drama and firing your staff who were and continue to be liked by the community, and offer no apologies for your wrongful decisions.


Xenonetix wrote:

Brian Meidell's approach was that the game wasn't making enough money, and so should be abandoned. He pulled MrShoe and MrVoid from the project during the time MrShoe was on vacation for about a month. Eventually, as Brian decided he also wanted to get rid of this game that was cancerous to his company, he passed it off to NVD. Now Brian also has left Player.IO, moving to work with Chris Benjaminsen in America. Effectively, he abandoned EE, never ONCE spoke to the community about the game, and never announced anything about it at all. The reason it was believed MrShoe "went on vacation and never came back", and that MrShoe got all the credit for his abandonment was simply because Brian refused to speak out to the community at all. If anything, MrShoe was the best 'owner' the game had, and he was never owner.

What leads you to believe that Brian Meidell thought that the game wasn't making enough money and should be abandoned? Julian (MrShoe) is the one who wrote the Guardian emails to NVD, JaWapa and others. He wasn't simply on vacation, he had an active role. MrShoe was the "best" owner the game ever had, and yet he was a) complicit in the Guardian system, and b) willing to sit by the sidelines and not disclose the reason he was "let go"
I wouldn't describe such an opaque person to be the "best" owner the game has ever had, although I wouldn't be surprised if you consider those acceptable traits.


Xenonetix wrote:

Every single owner except two have abandoned EE when it got too hard for them to handle, including Chris Benjaminsen, Brian Meidell, and Niels Van Dijk. The only owners not to have abandoned the game were Nou, who was pushed out by Atilla, and me, whom Atilla has attempted to push out on many occasions.

So here I am, still here, still suffering through this nightmare of a situation, and doing the only thing I possibly can at this point, which is keep the game offline for security reasons, and do all I can to continue work on EE Universe. If we abandon EE Universe at this point, then it's game over for all of us. No more EE. No more EEU. The game will officially be completely dead.

If Nou had stayed owner, I believe EE Unity would be out by now, and the game would have been moved away from PIO. As far as I can tell, it is entirely Atilla's fault this is not the case, simply because Atilla made a decision that Nou wasn't doing his job well enough.

I didn't push out Nou, I criticized him. I don't understand why you say that you personally work on EEU when literally Josh and to a lesser extent Luke do all the development work. The only thing you do is stand in the way with a high and mighty attitude whilst still attempting to be holier-than-thou with "I have been trying to help the game since it's inception." and cut them a pay cheque, so long as they don't dare criticize you for acting up.

"As far as I can tell, it is entirely Atilla's fault this is not the case, simply because Atilla made a decision that Nou wasn't doing his job well enough."
I understand you vehemently dislike me, as many others do. I can assure you the feeling is mutual between you and I, however please don't resort to passing blame onto me as you do with Player.IO. I criticized Nou for the lack of progress and transparency about the development of EE Unity. I, and many others, have criticized you for the slow development of EE Universe, albeit in some regards more playfully.

"If Nou had stayed owner, I believe EE Unity would be out by now, and the game would have been moved away from PIO."
They still used Player.IO with EE Unity. I suppose you haven't the slightest clue of what you're talking about.


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#56 2019-07-30 08:23:50

NorwegianboyEE
Member
From: Norway
Joined: 2015-03-16
Posts: 2,421

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

You two, Xeno and Atilla. Should join the forum mafia games, with that amount of intrinsic arguing skills. Hot damn dawg.

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#57 2019-07-30 09:45:46

peace
Member
From: admin land
Joined: 2015-08-10
Posts: 6,955

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

Slabdrill wrote:
Xenonetix wrote:

Kirby, Master1, & Tiralmo are the Campaign Curators.

What is the role of a campaign curator in a game that doesn't have any campaigns?

uhm EE has cmapaings and theyre curently staff of EE thye will porbably choose the featured daily levels and add the difficulty to them


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thanks hg for making this much better

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#58 2019-07-30 11:17:22, last edited by NoNK (2019-07-30 11:18:29)

NoNK
Member
Joined: 2019-07-13
Posts: 577

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

NorwegianboyEE wrote:

You two, Xeno and Atilla. Should join the forum mafia games, with that amount of intrinsic arguing skills. Hot damn dawg.

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#59 2019-07-30 12:53:05

AllenCaspe9510
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From: Heart Locket
Joined: 2018-03-24
Posts: 268
Website

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

CAN'T WE SETTLE THIS IN A PEACEFUL MANNER??


I first came in somewhere in February 2012

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#60 2019-07-30 13:09:18

eleizibeth
Member
Joined: 2017-06-29
Posts: 338

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

AllenCaspe9510 wrote:

CAN'T WE SETTLE THIS IN A PEACEFUL MANNER??

what isn't peaceful about this?


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#61 2019-07-30 15:00:30

AllenCaspe9510
Member
From: Heart Locket
Joined: 2018-03-24
Posts: 268
Website

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

eleizibeth wrote:
AllenCaspe9510 wrote:

CAN'T WE SETTLE THIS IN A PEACEFUL MANNER??

what isn't peaceful about this?

I'm predicting, that something might happen


I first came in somewhere in February 2012

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#62 2019-07-30 20:50:15

Charlie59876EE
Member
Joined: 2016-06-18
Posts: 133

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

idek who to believe or trust anymore


When your energy refills...
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#63 2019-07-30 22:28:24

mrjawapa
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From: Ohio, USA
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 5,330
Website

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

Charlie59876EE wrote:

idek who to believe or trust anymore

probably a lot of **** coming from both sides


Looks like everything will be coming to an end soon.

Discord: mrjawapa#5123
Steam: mrjawapa
Twitter: @mrjawapa

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#64 2019-07-30 22:38:39

mutantdevle
Member
From: Hell
Joined: 2015-03-31
Posts: 3,280
Website

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

mrjawapa wrote:
Charlie59876EE wrote:

idek who to believe or trust anymore

probably a lot of **** coming from both sides

To be honest, I think it's more blatant viewpoint biases of a hyperbolic nature rather than flat out ****. The issue is figuring out which bias in each situation is closer to the truth.

Either way, the conclusion is that there were talks about benjaminsen owning the game again but ultimately it's now heavily unlikely to ever happen. I personally don't really care why he won't come back or whether that's anyone's fault.


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#65 2019-07-31 01:45:44

Xenonetix
EE Owner
From: Working on EEU
Joined: 2015-03-07
Posts: 856
Website

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

Zumza wrote:

As LukeM mentioned, there are around 20 supporters who use PayPal to send you money instead of using Patreon, in exchange of the Patreon benefits.

Where did he say that? 1 supporter uses PayPal to send money instead of using Patreon. I don't see how Luke would have calculated "20" unless he's basing it on the number of people in the Patreon Discord Server, which is 47 accounts, 3 of which are bots, and 14 of which are staff. At time of writing, there are 30 Patreon supporters shown on the Patreon site, although there are 31 in total. 1 has chosen not to join the Patreon server, so the numbers add up.

Zumza wrote:

Calling Atilla for omitting things, while doing the same thing a few paragraph later, it's not sending a right signal.

Completely agree, but I didn't think I was omitting much of relevance, and certainly not enough to contradict my earlier point. It's still far from enough to pay rent, and it's still far from enough to pay multiple staff.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

I don't know how much you've paid to your staff. I know you haven't paid Phinarose very much. I could only speculate as to why, perhaps because you disliked her the most and weren't receptive to any of her ideas. I would also like to know how much you've paid your staff.

We paid her $50 per month while she was on staff. It was the 2nd most of any staff members at the time. That money is now going to Zoey2070 each month.

As we have made very clear to all staff, all staff positions are voluntary with potential for pay. There was no commitment to pay staff, and most have accepted that it would be more important for money to go into the advertising budget and not into their pockets.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

Would you mind citing where that $250,000 figure originates.

If you didn't say it, then I guess NVD must have done, but I definitely recall there being some mention of $250,000 in the Slack chat. Naturally, (and as you would probably claim is convenient,) the Slack chat history has completely gone at this point, unless you have full logs of it yourself.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

I don't really believe that your Patreon goal of "funded server hosting costs" really amounts to the $400 figure because I know for a fact that Player.IO asks for about $75 a month.

Indeed, this was a comfortable figure designed to pay for both EE and EEU servers, and not only EE servers alone. The figure also wasn't supposed to 'only' pay for servers, as there are obviously other costs involved.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

Well, that's an absolute lie. NVD did not halt development, he spent a majority of his time offline, however.  I assisted with development alongside Jesse and Showpath, new graphics were made and several updates were pushed.

From September, after an entire summer of me desperately pushing for updates. Please feel free to consult with Jesse and Showpath over this, but Jesse did not want to work on the game if it was just going to be given to Chris anyway, and Showpath helped me to deliver updates I had proposed.

New graphics were made... by me. I believe you only got involved in development during the summer of 2017 after I directly asked you for help in development because Showpath and Jesse had chosen not to help at the time. I made the campaign badges, and reworked some of Toop's graphics (such as Thor and Cowgirl). Jet produced some graphics that we agreed upon. No staff made any art, and I believe you delivered some concept art of "critters", but they never ended up in the game. Toop left in earlier 2017, and Koya was nowhere to be found. Cola1 was recruited by me, and he consulted with me on the graphics for the game, but actually very few graphics were made by him before he also disappeared for many months.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

You have had over a year on the other hand and have been proactive with campaigns and yet halting the development of the flash game purely on the promise of "Everybody Edits Universe" which, to date, over a year later, has not had an alpha and is less developed than the Unity project.

We've had over a year, never once halting development on updates until now, and we've been in EEU Alpha for a good many months now, so I don't understand what makes you think it "has not had an Alpha".

XxAtillaxX wrote:

In addition to that, you've actually had funding whereas Nou had nothing except for in-game profits.

Yes, and in-game profits have been considerably lower than they were during Nou's time. The Patreon has been the primary source of funding, and I've been trying pay staff and save up an advertising budget. I don't understand your complaints here.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

You honestly don't think you're patting yourself on the back a bit too much there, attempted to help the game over all 10 years of its existence, for free and without asking for gratitude? Wow, what a hero.

And yet you also complain that I don't pay staff?

XxAtillaxX wrote:

1. You fired Phinarose for trying to reason with you and tell you to stop stirring up drama in the community forum.

Of course not. I fired Phinarose primarily for being unprofessional in a public EE space, and for consistently demanding what I needed to do. I have no denying that she was an excellent moderator, but I had given her multiple chances over her time as staff, and she continued to assert that she disagreed with the way I was handling running Everybody Edits. Over time, it became clear that she would never come to agree with our plans for the future, no matter how many compromises we may have made in her favour.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

2. You fired Gosha for disagreeing with one of your assessments over a bug which he was absolutely correct about.

No, I fired Gosha for making an update without testing, and then deleting the entire Error Log during testing during the live game. It was unacceptable behaviour, and I wrongly trusted him too much, especially considering the amount of hidden code he had added in secret during the "cleaning up" of EE's code.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

3. You fired Luke for the same reason as above. You later re-hired him after he apologized to you.

I fired Luke because I over-reacted in the situation at the time. He couldn't defend Gosha's decision to delete the entire Error Log, but he was defending him over his decision to test an important update that could literally bring the game offline on the live servers. I had thought that, like Gosha, Luke was suggesting it was acceptable to bring the game down without consulting me first, but it turns out I had misunderstood Luke, and have done many times since. I do not believe Luke ever apologized to me over that, nor have I ever asked him to. I apologized to him for firing him.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

4. You demanded Phinarose to apologize to you before you'd consider making her a "lower-ranking" moderator.

I don't recall ever demanding anyone to apologize to me. Most people who do apologize by request are rarely sincere in their apologies anyway, so what would be the point in me asking for an apology?

XxAtillaxX wrote:

You have profited from it, just because you conceive of some losses from it like being suicidal doesn't mean you've never financially profited from it.

At no point did I mention being suicidal as being any form of loss. As you're well aware, I'm far too logical and pedantic to accept that I would conceive of losses in this context that are not financial.

I have paid to create ZendroForce Ltd., reserve and pay for domains, and continually pay for servers. If we were to even ignore all of that, and hypothetically presume I were personally receiving $500 a month (even though I'm receiving far lower than that) through EE, that would be approximately $125 a week rounded up. Minimum wage in the US (which is lower than minimum wage in the UK) is $7.25 an hour, which would be a little over 17 hours work a week. Considering I put in far closer to 30-40 hours a week in to Everybody Edits, and have done since becoming owner, that means I'm "profiting" at lower than minimum wage, so why are you complaining at my attempts to make some form of living and want the game to be more successful than it is now? It's ludicrous.

If I abandoned EE and worked a full-time job, I would be making more money and profit in my life, so yes, I have literally monetarily made financial losses by sticking to working on EE instead of getting full-time employment elsewhere. I accept that it was my responsibility and gamble to make that decision, but that doesn't change the fact I'm really definitely not "profiting" from Everybody Edits, and even if I were, that wouldn't be a bad thing.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

If you believed Nou could have possibly continued doing a better job than you were doing, why didn't you hand the game to him instead?

I offered. He declined. He no longer wanted to work on the game after the community and staff had pushed him out, and he had a content enough life without EE.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

You wonder why people criticize you when you fail to, or refuse to be transparent with what drew you to such conclusions.

No I don't. I wonder why you, and very specifically you, criticize it, because you, of all non-staff, are the most likely person to know exactly how these compromises occurred, and probably better than me exactly how much of a part Player.IO played in it. You are one of the people who has previously admitted to using flaws in Player.IO's security to hack the game, and mostly could not have been helped by non PIO staff.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

I don't understand why you say that you personally work on EEU when literally Josh and to a lesser extent Luke do all the development work.

What makes you think development is the only requirement? You've really done Kentiya and Koya a disservice there by making it sound like their contributions mean nothing.

I have indeed worked on EEU, creating the Design Documents, calculating EEU's planned economy, including hundreds of account compensations, creating many spreadsheets for all items, accounts, account requirements, world calculations, world options, projections, and EE transitions, just to name a few. A huge amount of work goes into creating an online multiplayer game that isn't only to do with development.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

They still used Player.IO with EE Unity. I suppose you haven't the slightest clue of what you're talking about.

They did indeed, and they could well have moved away from PIO by now. We will never know, and it's relatively pointless for us to speculate, but it doesn't change the fact that I still believed in Nou enough to think he would be the only other owner to have been able to keep EE alive until now.

Returning to the points about paying staff and profit, I would be very interested to know how Atilla would choose to divide up the money. This is June 2019's income:

June EE Income

That comes to a total of $507.38. If we were to pretend we live in a world where there would be no further deductions from that, may I ask how you would choose to split that amongst staff? If Phinarose were still with us, she would still only be paid $50 a month, and even that would be a stretch at current income figures, so I do wish to know where this so-called "profit" is. If I were to keep it all for myself and not pay anyone, based on current conversion rates, that would be £417.50 over a period of 30 days. I pay rent at approximately £450 a month, thus making a clear profit of -£32.50 to spend on mainly food. I bet you're so jealous of that epic profit I'm making...


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#66 2019-07-31 03:48:24

XxAtillaxX
Member
From: Canada
Joined: 2015-11-28
Posts: 4,009

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

Xenonetix wrote:
XxAtillaxX wrote:

I don't know how much you've paid to your staff. I know you haven't paid Phinarose very much. I could only speculate as to why, perhaps because you disliked her the most and weren't receptive to any of her ideas. I would also like to know how much you've paid your staff.

We paid her $50 per month while she was on staff. It was the 2nd most of any staff members at the time. That money is now going to Zoey2070 each month.

As we have made very clear to all staff, all staff positions are voluntary with potential for pay. There was no commitment to pay staff, and most have accepted that it would be more important for money to go into the advertising budget and not into their pockets.

I just find it funny how you don't give any shares to any of your staff and would rather rely on charity. You claim below that it is for EEU server hosting costs, and here you claim it is for the advertising budget. What's with that?

Xenonetix wrote:
XxAtillaxX wrote:

I don't really believe that your Patreon goal of "funded server hosting costs" really amounts to the $400 figure because I know for a fact that Player.IO asks for about $75 a month.

Indeed, this was a comfortable figure designed to pay for both EE and EEU servers, and not only EE servers alone.

Xenonetix wrote:
XxAtillaxX wrote:

Well, that's an absolute lie. NVD did not halt development, he spent a majority of his time offline, however.  I assisted with development alongside Jesse and Showpath, new graphics were made and several updates were pushed.

From September, after an entire summer of me desperately pushing for updates. Please feel free to consult with Jesse and Showpath over this, but Jesse did not want to work on the game if it was just going to be given to Chris anyway, and Showpath helped me to deliver updates I had proposed.

New graphics were made... by me. I believe you only got involved in development during the summer of 2017 after I directly asked you for help in development because Showpath and Jesse had chosen not to help at the time. I made the campaign badges, and reworked some of Toop's graphics (such as Thor and Cowgirl). Jet produced some graphics at my request. No staff made any art, and I believe you delivered some concept art of "critters", but they never ended up in the game. Toop left in earlier 2017, and Koya was nowhere to be found. Cola1 was recruited by me, and he consulted with me on the graphics for the game, but actually very few graphics were made by him before he also disappeared for many months.

You were not the only one pushing for updates. I was as well, and I helped developed them. No, I didn't only get involved in development because of you. I was receptive to it beforehand and offered to do so from the beginning. I introduced artwork and I don't quite understand why you are claiming "new graphics were made by me" when Toop and Cola1 also assisted. I know you had contracted Jet create graphics for the game without the permission of NVD. I still don't know why you chose to use your status as a staff member to do so.

Xenonetix wrote:
XxAtillaxX wrote:

You have had over a year on the other hand and have been proactive with campaigns and yet halting the development of the flash game purely on the promise of "Everybody Edits Universe" which, to date, over a year later, has not had an alpha and is less developed than the Unity project.

We've had over a year, never once stopped halting development on updates until now, and we've been in EEU Alpha for a good many months now, so I don't understand what makes you think it "has not had an Alpha".

You have a relatively bare-bones alpha among Patrons. I understand. I'm referring to whatever term, alpha, beta, gamma or omega you're referring to "Early 2019" with. Wow, campaigns though. I am merely questioning why you feel the need to be hypocritical in your remarks about halting the flash game development when you're literally doing that right now if you disregard campaigns.

Xenonetix wrote:
XxAtillaxX wrote:

You don't know where the ego trip comes from? You literally fired several staff because they dared criticize you.

Xenonetix wrote:
XxAtillaxX wrote:

1. You fired Phinarose for trying to reason with you and tell you to stop stirring up drama in the community forum.

Of course not. I fired Phinarose primarily for being unprofessional in a public EE space, and for consistently demanding what I needed to do. I have no denying that she was an excellent moderator, but I had given her multiple chances over her time as staff, and she continued to assert that she disagreed with the way I was handling running Everybody Edits. Over time, it became clear that she would never come to agree with

Yeah, okay. She was the one being so unprofessional in a "public EE space" - not you. I forgot. Chris, get over yourself. You then proceeded to demand her to apologize if she wished to be given a lesser role for "being unprofessional" which is exactly what you have done many many many times.

Xenonetix wrote:
XxAtillaxX wrote:

2. You fired Gosha for disagreeing with one of your assessments over a bug which he was absolutely correct about.

No, I fired Gosha for making an update without testing, and then deleting the entire Error Log during testing during the live game. It was unacceptable behaviour, and I wrongly trusted him too much, especially considering the amount of hidden code he had added in secret during the "cleaning up" of EE's code.

The update that he pushed had absolutely no role in causing the issues you were yelling at him about. LukeM confirmed as much. He didn't delete the error log in malice, he deleted them to rid of the irrelevant errors.
The "hidden code" that he added in was a broadcast command that could only be used by administrators for debugging. Wow, what a crazy amount of malice that is!

Xenonetix wrote:
XxAtillaxX wrote:

3. You fired Luke for the same reason as above. You later re-hired him after he apologized to you.

I fired Luke because I over-reacted in the situation at the time. He couldn't defend Gosha's decision to delete the entire Error Log, but he was defending him over his decision to test an important update that could literally bring the game offline on the live servers. I had thought that, like Gosha, Luke was suggesting it was acceptable to bring the game down without consulting me first, but it turns out I had misunderstood Luke, and have done many times since. I do not believe Luke ever apologized to me over that, nor have I ever asked him to. I apologized to him for firing him.

No ****, you over-reacted in every situation. Oh no, the game servers were down for approximately five minutes. Yeah, that's a good excuse to fire a developer who hadn't done anything wrong up until that point. The only thing that he did wrong, as others including LukeM did, was criticize you.

Xenonetix wrote:
XxAtillaxX wrote:

4. You demanded Phinarose to apologize to you before you'd consider making her a "lower-ranking" moderator.

I don't recall ever demanding anyone to apologize to me. Most people who do apologize by request are rarely sincere in their apologies anyway, so what would be the point in me asking for an apology?

Oh yeah, telling someone that you refuse to give them their job back unless they apologize is totally not demanding an apology. Oh, it doesn't matter because perhaps their apology would be insincere so therefore it's okay to demand it after firing them for honestly unjustifiable reasons!

Xenonetix wrote:
XxAtillaxX wrote:

You have profited from it, just because you conceive of some losses from it like being suicidal doesn't mean you've never financially profited from it.

At no point did I mention being suicidal as being any form of loss. As you're well aware, I'm far too logical and pedantic to accept that I would conceive of losses that are not financial.

I have paid to create ZendroForce Ltd., reserve and pay for domains, and continually pay for servers. If we were to even ignore all of that, and hypothetically presume I were receiving $500 a month (even though I'm receiving far lower than that) through EE, that would be approximately $125 a week rounded up. Minimum wage in the US (which is lower than minimum wage in the UK) is $7.25 an hour, which would be a little over 17 hours work a week. Considering I put in far closer to 30-40 hours a week in to Everybody Edits, and have done since becoming owner, that means I'm "profiting" at lower than minimum wage, so why are you complaining at my attempts to make some form of living and want the game to be more successful than it is now? It's ludicrous.

If I abandoned EE and worked a full-time job, I would be making more money and profit in my life, so yes, I have literally monetarily made financial losses by sticking to working on EE instead of getting full-time employment elsewhere. I accept that it was my responsibility and gamble to make that decision, but that doesn't change the fact I'm really definitely not "profiting" from Everybody Edits, and even if I were, that wouldn't be a bad thing.

I know you aren't getting rich off of it. I never claimed that, I said that you are financially profiting from it because the net sum you receive is positive. You don't just get to claim that you had losses for suffering. If you make $100 and stub your toe, that doesn't mean you financially profited $75 because the pain you consider to be worth $25.

Xenonetix wrote:
XxAtillaxX wrote:

You wonder why people criticize you when you fail to, or refuse to be transparent with what drew you to such conclusions.

No I don't. I wonder why you, and very specifically you, criticize it, because you, of all non-staff, are the most likely person to know exactly how these compromises occurred, and probably better than me exactly how much of a part Player.IO played in it. You are one of the people who has previously admitted to using flaws in Player.IO's security to hack the game, and mostly could not have been helped by non PIO staff.

I'm not the only one calling out your **** on this matter. Many others have as well. I do know more than you in regards to their security because I did do a security audit for Yahoo. I have used flaws in the connection permissions granted to the "public" connection in the past to create database objects in certain tables. That isn't a flaw in Player.IO, that's a flaw in the administrators in granting a connection type more permissions than is necessary.

Xenonetix wrote:
XxAtillaxX wrote:

I don't understand why you say that you personally work on EEU when literally Josh and to a lesser extent Luke do all the development work.

What makes you think development is the only requirement? You've really done Kentiya and Koya a disservice there by making it sound like their contributions mean nothing.

I have indeed worked on EEU, creating the Design Documents, calculating EEU's planned economy, including hundreds of account compensations, creating many spreadsheets for all items, accounts, account requirements, world calculations, world options, projections, and EE transitions, just to name a few. A huge amount of work goes into creating an online multiplayer game that isn't only to do with development.

I never claimed development is the only requirement, there's literally no statement of me saying that in that quote. I would say Koya and Kentiya do an exponential amount more than you do. You do everything that literally anyone else could do. Not everyone could make quality artwork, not everyone could write quality code. Anyone can create a spreadsheet, however.

Xenonetix wrote:
XxAtillaxX wrote:

They still used Player.IO with EE Unity. I suppose you haven't the slightest clue of what you're talking about.

They did indeed, and they could well have moved away from PIO by now. We will never know, and it's relatively pointless for us to speculate, but it doesn't change the fact that I still believed in Nou enough to think he would be the only other owner to have been able to keep EE alive until now..

Yes, it is pure speculation so I don't know why you stated it as a fact that they would've not used Player.IO if EE Unity were to be developed more, when they did use Player.IO.


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#67 2019-07-31 08:02:24

Xenonetix
EE Owner
From: Working on EEU
Joined: 2015-03-07
Posts: 856
Website

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

XxAtillaxX wrote:

I just find it funny how you don't give any shares to any of your staff and would rather rely on charity.

Well, firstly, none of them have asked for shares in ZendroForce Ltd. I don't see why I would give out shares of such a fledgling company right now, and I think until October this year, I don't believe I can even legally trade shares in this company. I could promise them shares in future, and not pay them directly now, but that seems far worse than just paying them regularly? If any of the staff which to discuss share options, they're free to do so, but this is literally the first time you've brought up shares, and for some reason "find it funny I don't give any shares" when that's never ever been discussed or even considered. You make it sound as if I have at some point refused to do so?

XxAtillaxX wrote:

You claim below that it is for EEU server hosting costs, and here you claim it is for the advertising budget. What's with that?

I claim, as I have always claimed, that the money goes to various costs, including, as it has stated on the Patreon the entire time the Patreon has been up:

  • Advertising

  • Domains

  • EE-Servers

  • Reboot-Servers

  • Patreon-Fees

  • Staff/Equipment

  • Taxes

It has also been stated the entire time on Patreon also:

Patreon wrote:

By reaching $500/month, we can assure that Everybody Edits Universe can live on with regular updates! These funds cover unlimited data monthly server costs, along with any other necessary regular monthly payments.

I really don't understand why you keep on trying to pick me up on what I say about where the money's going when I've never once changed the facts.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

I know you had contracted Jet create graphics for the game without the permission of NVD. I still don't know why you chose to use your status as a staff member to do so.

You know that? How? Especially as I did speak to NVD about it, and Cola1. You're not part of every conversation in the community, so I don't see how you could possibly "know" such things.

Also, while we're at it, if you believe what you've said here, why was it therefore acceptable for Gosha and Phinarose to choose to use their statuses as staff members to make executive decisions without the permission of the owner?

XxAtillaxX wrote:

I'm referring to whatever term, alpha, beta, gamma or omega you're referring to "Early 2019" with.

That's Closed Beta.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

I am merely questioning why you feel the need to be hypocritical in your remarks about halting the flash game development when you're literally doing that right now.

It's not hypocritical. I literally said "until now", so yes, what we are literally doing right now is halting the Flash Game Development, and I have made no effort to try to hide that fact. I even announced it in the last update post.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

You don't know where the ego trip comes from? You literally fired several staff because they dared criticize you.

This being your opinion. I know, and will always know, that I literally fired staff for legitimate reasons, and had nothing to do with criticizing me. If I were to fire staff for criticizing me, pretty sure I'd have close to 0 staff. I welcome constructive criticism, and many staff have retained their staff positions, regardless of disagreeing with and criticizing me on several occasions. We discuss things rationally and come to compromises.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

The only thing that he did wrong...

Why isn't deleting the entire Error Log wrong? Especially during a time when we were literally testing the game and it was going down? Surely the last thing one should do is delete the only evidence of why the game is crashing?

It's also very odd that Gosha very rarely spoke up to staff with his concerns. He has regularly said on these forums that he knew that we could never deliver on the time-frames we were projecting, and he often went to non-staff to tell them this while he was still staff. He said I didn't know what I was doing outside of staff to the community a lot while he was staff himself, and yet never discussed his concerns with staff at all. I consult the staff to find out the necessary information to attempt to give accurate projections, and instead of giving us any indication of realistic projections, Gosha decided, from September through to December of 2018 at the very least, to just work on everything by himself, often without consulting me or other developers. He occasionally discussed things with LukeM, and LukeM was the one to bring them up in the staff chats, or discuss them with me directly.

I would have had no problem at all with Gosha disagreeing with my methods and my projections if he just communicated with me more, but instead, he preferred to discuss things with the community, and literally, as staff, contradict the official staff position on these matters. The problem was primarily that the official staff position on these matters literally wouldn't have been the official staff position if Gosha had told us more often what he knew, what he expected, and what he was doing.

I can only announce things based on the information I have been given, so for Gosha to contradict me publicly every step of the way was incredibly unprofessional. I spoke to him many times over many months about this, and he never made any effort to change his ways to show any level of professionalism as staff. He was given multiple warnings before the point he was finally fired, and the deletion of the Error Log was just the last straw after many months of ongoing issues.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

You then proceeded to demand her to apologize

XxAtillaxX wrote:

Oh yeah, telling someone that you refuse to give them their job back unless they apologize is totally not demanding an apology.

I mean, you'd have to post a screenshot of me asking for an apology that can be verified, because this is something you have continued to assert that I do even though I don't recall ever doing so. I wouldn't hire someone back purely because they "apologise" anyway. That's very rarely enough to be rehired in any position.

If I were to have demanded an apology, then I would accept your proposals that I would only make such a demand to "stroke my ego", as there would be very few other reasons to demand an apology. I don't care in the slightest whether I receive an apology from Phinarose, and naturally, it would be way too late for that to happen anyway. Pretty confident she has no interest in returning to staff, so I don't really understand why you keep bringing it up.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

I know you aren't getting rich off of it. I never claimed that, I said that you are financially profiting from it because the net sum you receive is positive.

Ok, and that's a bad thing? Is it wrong for me to profit from the labour I do? Isn't that what billions of people around the world do?

XxAtillaxX wrote:

I do know more than you in regards to their security because I did do a security audit for Yahoo.

Yahoo hired Player.IO?

XxAtillaxX wrote:

I never claimed development is the only requirement, there's literally no statement of me saying that in that quote. I would say Koya and Kentiya do an exponential amount more than you do. You do everything that literally anyone else could do. Not everyone could make quality artwork, not everyone could write quality code. Anyone can create a spreadsheet, however.

Since when does that make it not "work"? You said "I don't understand why you say that you personally work on EEU". Just because "anyone could do the work I do on EEU" doesn't mean I don't personally work on EEU. If I could do all the work by myself, I wouldn't require additional staff to do the work that I struggle to do myself, so your point appears moot.

XxAtillaxX wrote:

Yes, it is pure speculation so I don't know why you stated it as a fact that they would've not used Player.IO.

I didn't.

Xenonetix wrote:

If Nou had stayed owner, I believe EE Unity would be out by now, and the game would have been moved away from PIO.

I stated I believe that EE Unity would be out by now, and I believe that the game would have been moved away from PIO.


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#68 2019-07-31 08:42:08, last edited by Gosha (2019-07-31 08:53:28)

Gosha
Member
From: Russia
Joined: 2015-03-15
Posts: 5,919

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

Xenonetix wrote:

No, I fired Gosha for making an update without testing, and then deleting the entire Error Log during testing during the live game. It was unacceptable behaviour, and I wrongly trusted him too much, especially considering the amount of hidden code he had added in secret during the "cleaning up" of EE's code.

Let's get some lore over here.
1) Silent server update. It's a server side update (usually bugfixes) that doesn't require to update game version. You can silently replace old code with new one and all fresh created worlds will run that. Have done that countless of times, because it's convenient, no need to stop all existing rooms.
2) Error log. PlayerIO error log is extremely unhelpful. It provides the basic information about errors. Mainly their titles and descriptions. It also has terrible sorting system, that's why it becomes cluttered with spam fast. That's why when i only see regular errors (like player X sent to much "m" messages, useless) i delete the Error log. Old errors aren't helpful, but they mix with new potentially helpful errors. This is not a big deal, i had been doing that almost every month.

So. I pushed the update to the dev server to test if everything is working. Everything worked as usual and there was no reason to expect a crash from it.
That's why i pushed my update to the main server, but Playerio servers crashed.
I quickly disabled new update and enabled old code so EE would work.
The Error log just stated that "The server is down, Timeout reached", no actual helpful information that could be used to trace the reason for such error.

I discussed this situation in the EE staff discord. Then i tested my code again on dev server, and it worked again.
From all this information we can make some assumptions:
1) Either that was a Playerio one-time fault and if we put back the update everything will work just fine.
2) Or There is a very weird problem with my code that only occurs on main server
Either way, we needed to enable the update code for some seconds to collect logs just to confirm these assumptions.

That's why i cleared up Error log. To listen for fresh errors without any spam.

Let's summarize. I cleared up the error log to test out what causing new update to crash and work from there to fix it.

Remember what happened later, xenonetix?

warning: language

Who is being unprofessional here, xenonetix?
You removed my powers to view the error log. So i couldn't possibly fix the issue because i can't see what's the problem.
Luke was on board with me because he is a developer too and understands that there is no other way to figure out what the problem is about other than enabling the update code on main server.

A good manager would listen to his developers and trust them on fixing the issue. You acted like a child, disabled my development powers and gave an ultimatum that if the update breaks ee, both me and luke gets fired.

P.S.
You are talking that your ego isn't a problem at all. What about this line?

CONTENT WARNING

sounds like a child who were given powers and anyone disagreeing with them would be punished.

EDIT: i posted this before xenonetix's reply, so i didn't have a chance to reply to that post, but
Xenonetix, the amount of  biased **** you are firing at me while being completely ignorant about your retard behavior towards me (like shown above) is ridiculous.

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#69 2019-07-31 09:43:05

Zumza
Member
From: root
Joined: 2015-02-17
Posts: 4,511

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

Xenonetix wrote:
Zumza wrote:

As LukeM mentioned, there are around 20 supporters who use PayPal to send you money instead of using Patreon, in exchange of the Patreon benefits.

Where did he say that? 1 supporter uses PayPal to send money instead of using Patreon. I don't see how Luke would have calculated "20" unless he's basing it on the number of people in the Patreon Discord Server, which is 47 accounts, 3 of which are bots, and 14 of which are staff. At time of writing, there are 30 Patreon supporters shown on the Patreon site, although there are 31 in total. 1 has chosen not to join the Patreon server, so the numbers add up.

LukeM revealed the number of persons within the Patreon server. Due to poor phrasing, I let it perceived as LukeM said there are 20 persons that use PayPal, which is inncorect.
LukeM said there are around 50 persons within the Patreon server, and that they are some people who send you money in other manners probably such as PayPal.
I wrongfully assumed that the number of those people is around the difference between the number of people in the server and the number of official patrons.
My bad.


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#70 2019-07-31 10:24:40

Xenonetix
EE Owner
From: Working on EEU
Joined: 2015-03-07
Posts: 856
Website

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

Gosha wrote:

Old errors aren't helpful, but they mix with new potentially helpful errors. This is not a big deal, i had been doing that almost every month.

And I had repeatedly stated how worried I was that the error log had been cleared regularly while you were staff. I asked the staff outright when it happened, worried the game had been breached, and it had repeatedly been put down to a glitch in PIO deleting them. Not once did you reveal that you were responsible, even when I asked all the devs directly in the development chat. It was a big deal when inexplicable things were occurring, yes. You regularly made changes and updates completely in secret without discussing it with any other staff, let alone myself.

Gosha wrote:

Who is being unprofessional here, xenonetix?

In the private staff chat that you technically just breached the Non-Disclosure Agreement by revealing publicly? There's a massive difference between professionalism in public and professionalism in private. I obviously don't go around swearing in public areas because that would be unprofessional.

I initially reasonably asked you to explain yourself, and instead of doing so, you claimed I have no idea what I'm talking about and couldn't understand what you're saying because I'm not a developer. This was immensely insulting and disrespectful, not to mention untrue.

Gosha wrote:

You acted like a child.

Gosha wrote:

A good manager would listen to his developers and trust them on fixing the issue.

Nothing in those screenshots indicates acting childishly. As a responsible owner of the game, who felt his game was being attacked, only to find out one of his internal developers was responsible and refused to explain why, I disabled the development powers of the individual at highest suspicion and least co-operation.

Everything stated in those screenshots happened exactly as stated. Once ByteArray came online, he did offer a "different fix", which worked, was tested properly before going live, and then we made it live. It was asserted to me that the "only" way to handle it was to upload the exact same code a second time, which had previously broken the game, and then the Error Logs were deleted AFTER the crash, so we couldn't even tell who was responsible. Gosha can claim PIO was responsible all he likes, which is amazingly rich considering how much Atilla insists PIO isn't responsible for the majority of the issues we have with the game, but if you want to show that PIO is responsible, you don't then delete all evidence that PIO may have been responsible, which is exactly what Gosha did.

Exactly as stated, the same code was uploaded, the game broke again, and both developers were fired. The fact that Gosha didn't even discuss any of it with the Team Leader ByteArray, who Gosha definitely can't claim wouldn't know what he's talking about, and didn't want to even wait for ByteArray to come on, especially when ByteArray was meant to be the one primarily doing the merges and the updates, and not Gosha or LukeM, all just indicates many further reasons why I was right to fire Gosha.

Gosha wrote:

You are talking that your ego isn't a problem at all. What about this line?

So, you're saying that I'm egotistical because I claimed I know what I'm talking about? Have you seen the immense amount of effort and care I put into every single word I portray? I know what I'm talking about, always, and the fact you stated outright that I did not was immensely offensive. If you didn't treat me as if I'm an idiot for months on end, then none of this would have happened.

I feel also it has to be pointed out how much more egotistical you must have been to me statistically if this is your reasoning, because that means by saying "I know better than you", as you did so many times, is purely a show of ego, and little else.

Gosha wrote:

...while being completely ignorant about your retard behavior towards me (like shown above) is ridiculous.

Just a further example of why I was right to fire you. I said it at the time and I'll say it now. There are very few bosses in the world that would ever tolerate such offensive, derogatory, and insulting language as you put to me for many months. Many would have immediately fired you for the targeted insults on the spot, and I gave you multiple chances instead of firing you instinctively.

While we're at it, going to admit yet that you exported the QuickConnect on 5th January? None of Luke, Josh, or I did, and you were the only other one who could have done so. If so, I would love to know why you did it. If not, that means the backend was already compromised prior to any of the firings I made, and in order to investigate how that could have been the case, some error logs would have been mighty handy.


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#71 2019-07-31 13:36:29

Charlie59876EE
Member
Joined: 2016-06-18
Posts: 133

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

Gosha wrote:

You are talking that your ego isn't a problem at all. What about this line?

sounds like a child who were given powers and anyone disagreeing with them would be punished.

Can someone link to the undeleted images?


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#72 2019-07-31 14:30:15

Weirdoverse
Member
From: A Really Really Really
Joined: 2015-02-20
Posts: 1,036
Website

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

this topic is more like Xenonetix VS ex-staff


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#73 2019-07-31 14:56:17, last edited by LIATRI42 (2019-07-31 14:56:41)

LIATRI42
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Joined: 2019-07-20
Posts: 41

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

I still respect Chris Lamb and thank him for what he has done for us. Atilla is right in many points and things, and I also agree with what he says. They are both right and there is no winner. But I think a battle between the two sides should be stopped and we should find a common opinion. It will be the most reasonable way out.

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#74 2019-08-01 02:05:55, last edited by LukeM (2019-08-01 02:11:20)

LukeM
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Joined: 2016-06-03
Posts: 2,911
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Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

I guess I'll give an overview of what happened between me, Gosha and Xeno, as although we're all pretty biased, I guess I'm probably the person whose biases cancel out the most.

Gosha generally had good intentions, but often had an 'act now, think later' mentality when it came to EE updates. I'm not sure exactly what happened in this case, but Gosha was known to push code without ever having tested it, which is how we got into the situation of needing the update in the first place, so it's entirely possible that he might not have tested his fix.

The PlayerIO error log sorting is actually pretty nice (even if sometimes the error log itself isn't), not sure why Atilla and Gosha are making it sound like you have to clear it to be able to tell what errors are caused by what... You can filter the errors by server version, so you should never need to clear the log to get rid of irrelevant errors, and even if for some reason you can't do this, it's in chronological order, so if worst comes to worst you can just read from top to bottom until you get past the point you care about.

In this case, I'm pretty sure the majority of the errors being thrown were 'General Error's, which usually signify something going wrong on PlayerIO's part. However the problem was that they could have been indirectly caused by something else, but we had no way to tell whether this was the case as Gosha cleared the error log after he reverted to the previous server version as he assumed that there wasn't anything of use for some reason, so we had no way of knowing whether there was an underlying problem or whether it was just PlayerIO being PlayerIO.

This was the point at which the conversation in our development discord channel started, with me trying to help work out why the update would have failed and not being able to because Gosha had just deleted all the errors (after reverting to the old server version, so this wasn't even to filter out the irrelevant errors, there were just no errors at all). This was made worse by the fact that Gosha wasn't handling the situation very well, so in the end it ended up with him and Xeno swearing at each other etc, as he's shown above. At this point Gosha really wasn't helping the situation so several times I encouraged him to take a break and let me handle it.

The course of action we both came to was to (after making sure Gosha had tested the update properly on a dev server) recompile and reupload the update, which understandably sounds a lot like a 'act now, think later' solution, but, at least in my case it was only after deciding that pretty much every other preferable course of action was no longer possible as Gosha had deleted the error logs. If there was an actual problem then we'd need more information to know how to fix it, and both the way for us to tell whether there was an actual problem and the way for us to get that information should there have been one were just deleted. It was a very bad solution, and Xenonetix was understandably not happy with it (neither was I, but I couldn't think of another option). I was trying to explain the reasoning behind it and why there wasn't much else we could do, but as Gosha and Xeno were having an all out argument at this point I wasn't able to do this (generally I'm not very good at explaining this sort of thing, especially when the conversation was happening as fast as it was).

This is the point where Xeno said the decision was up to us, but if we ended up being wrong then he'd fire us both. Of course I wasn't happy to take that risk, so at this point I lost my temper slightly. Shortly after Gosha was fired, after swearing at Xeno pretty much continuously for quite a while.

The argument continued for a bit before Byte came online, who at this point pretty much ended up taking my original role of trying to calm down the situation and explain the problem we were in and what we could do, while I had partly taken Gosha's role of fairly angrily arguing that we should be reuploading the server code, although not to quite as much of an extreme. In the end Byte tried uploading the code to a fake version number on the real EE servers so it hopefully wouldn't impact real players too much, which admittedly I hadn't thought of, but didn't end up giving us any more information than we already had, it still acted fine just like the dev servers. I continued arguing that we should just reupload the code to the live servers, and after a while I guess the argument was heated enough for Xeno to decide that I should be fired too.

Eventually after things had cooled down, and after testing the few other things he could think of, Byte did reupload the server code, and it did end up working (I guess Xeno must have remembered incorrectly in his last reply, I've gone back through the discord logs and this does seem to be what happened)

The next day, after we'd all cooled down, and after what seems like a discussion between Byte, Kirby, and Xeno, and after some discussions between me, Byte, and Xeno, Xenonetix decided that he was wrong to fire me, as it seems like most of it was down to misunderstandings, partly due to me getting caught up in the argument and explaining things badly, and partly because Xeno was in a pretty bad mood after what happened with Gosha.

It's possible I might have missed some things, but I've tried to be as unbiased as possible and fact-check with the discord logs, so I hope this is a fairly accurate description of what happened and that it shines a more complete light on why everything that happened happened. Of course I don't agree with Xeno firing me, but I do understand why he did so, and it was at least partly my fault for explaining things badly and getting caught up in the frenzy.

(Also quick note: I can confirm that Xeno doesn't fire people when they disagree with him, I've had several disagreements with him since, some significantly longer than this one (although nowhere near as heated), as any other member of staff can confirm, and I haven't been fired again //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/smile)

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#75 2019-08-01 06:02:53

kaj93
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From: Ask Google! They probably know
Joined: 2015-08-23
Posts: 37

Re: Imagine if Benjaminsen had EE ownership again

Xenonetix wrote:

Yahoo hired Player.IO?

No they didn't. Yahoo BOUGHT Player.IO's parent company PlayerScale. https://web.archive.org/web/20110925012 … scale.com/ Player.IO was later sold to The Games Platform Company ApS (Can't find much about that company.) The Wikipedia article about PlayerScale (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayerScale) even mentions EE and both breaches.

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