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#26 2018-11-27 00:33:31

Xenonetix
EE Owner (Formerly Mega Lamb)
From: Working on EEU
Joined: 2015-03-07
Posts: 849
Website

Re: Elementary!

Helvi wrote:
peace wrote:

uhm who tought an 1 life only camapgin was fun for a MEDIUM rated world? (water tier 2)

peace wrote:

dude medium isnt that hard to do and can be done by almost everyone medium-hard isnt hard either it just requires a bit more skill i does NOT exclude much of the comunnity

Oh .. really?

Hi guys - We've now updated the starting oxygen time from 15 seconds to 30 seconds. We hope this helps!


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#27 2018-11-27 07:02:02

Crybaby
Formerly minimania
From: Wilted
Joined: 2015-02-22
Posts: 4,380

Re: Elementary!

I think there's something to be said in the fact that every current campaign curator has already passed a huge skill gap that the large majority of EE players haven't, yet.


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#28 2018-11-27 08:10:28

peace
Member
From: admin land
Joined: 2015-08-10
Posts: 6,367

Re: Elementary!

Xenonetix wrote:
Helvi wrote:
peace wrote:

uhm who tought an 1 life only camapgin was fun for a MEDIUM rated world? (water tier 2)

peace wrote:

dude medium isnt that hard to do and can be done by almost everyone medium-hard isnt hard either it just requires a bit more skill i does NOT exclude much of the comunnity

Oh .. really?

Hi guys - We've now updated the starting oxygen time from 15 seconds to 30 seconds. We hope this helps!

no as the 1st 3 coins are basoically free increas elife from 1 to 2


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#29 2018-11-27 17:03:05, last edited by Helvi (2018-11-27 17:18:56)

Helvi
Member
Joined: 2015-04-06
Posts: 1,128

Re: Elementary!

minimania wrote:

I think there's something to be said in the fact that every current campaign curator has already passed a huge skill gap that the large majority of EE players haven't, yet.

You pretty much summed up everything we said several months. I salute you and hope the responsable personnel re-evaluate everything.


Also, remove the 1-life-only map from the campaign. Its a tedious grind.


Hi.

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#30 2018-11-27 17:30:43

MWstudios
Member
From: World 4-2
Joined: 2018-04-06
Posts: 1,331

Re: Elementary!

Since everyone complains about that 1-life map being hard, here's the trick how you do it:
First upgrade oxygen tank, then speed, then shortcut and then speed again
Or in a different order, but oxygen tank must be first


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#31 2018-11-27 18:06:16

KirbyKareem
Member
From: America
Joined: 2018-03-31
Posts: 376

Re: Elementary!

MWstudios wrote:

Since everyone complains about that 1-life map being hard, here's the trick how you do it:
First upgrade oxygen tank, then speed, then shortcut and then speed again
Or in a different order, but oxygen tank must be first

Uh no, the shortcut is a complete waste of coins
The real order is:

Oxygen, Speed, Oxygen, Speed

You can switch the middle speed and Oxygen around too.


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#32 2018-11-27 20:17:53

Helvi
Member
Joined: 2015-04-06
Posts: 1,128

Re: Elementary!

So, Xeno nerfed ipwners water level twice. Especially at the end with the very tight timed race against the green keyblock - it was just nuts.

The last water level also lacks a checkpoint, yet he refuses to add a checkpoint because "a well known, non-skilled user also beat this". And still I see people having many many troubles with this map.
Serious, who is evaluating the maps? On which base? I would like to ask the campaign team to make their homework.
For the entire year 2018 we got this weird, hard nut content "on community demand", yet I never requested something like TNT or BS. And certainly not a wonky portal based map from the water tier.


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#33 2018-11-27 20:20:07

peace
Member
From: admin land
Joined: 2015-08-10
Posts: 6,367

Re: Elementary!

Helvi wrote:

So, Xeno nerfed ipwners water level twice. Especially at the end with the very tight timed race against the green keyblock - it was just nuts.

The last water level also lacks a checkpoint, yet he refuses to add a checkpoint because "a well known, non-skilled user also beat this". And still I see people having many many troubles with this map.
Serious, who is evaluating the maps? On which base? I would like to ask the campaign team to make their homework.
For the entire year 2018 we got this weird, hard nut content "on community demand", yet I never requested something like TNT or BS. And certainly not a wonky portal based map from the water tier.

ask kriby


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#34 2018-11-27 21:15:50

MWstudios
Member
From: World 4-2
Joined: 2018-04-06
Posts: 1,331

Re: Elementary!

Helvi wrote:

So, Xeno nerfed ipwners water level twice. Especially at the end with the very tight timed race against the green keyblock - it was just nuts.

The last water level also lacks a checkpoint, yet he refuses to add a checkpoint because "a well known, non-skilled user also beat this". And still I see people having many many troubles with this map.
Serious, who is evaluating the maps? On which base? I would like to ask the campaign team to make their homework.
For the entire year 2018 we got this weird, hard nut content "on community demand", yet I never requested something like TNT or BS. And certainly not a wonky portal based map from the water tier.

There's two types of levels (if we don't count extreme levels):
Easy but long and hard but short
And this one is especially the second type


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#35 2018-11-28 00:34:57

mutantdevle
Member
From: Hell
Joined: 2015-03-31
Posts: 3,006
Website

Re: Elementary!

Helvi wrote:

The last water level also lacks a checkpoint, yet he refuses to add a checkpoint because "a well known, non-skilled user also beat this". And still I see people having many many troubles with this map.

I'm not sure who you mean by 'he refuses' but that's not the reason there isn't a checkpoint there.

The reason there is no checkpoint there is simply because I didn't place one. I didn't want one there because it made the level too easy when I had one there when the level was initially created over a year ago. I personally consider the level to be medium rated. Any half decent player who can beat any other medium world could probably beat this is less than 100 deaths. The world is rated medium-hard. I accept the criticism that the lack of a checkpoint means you have to replay a small part that you know how to do over and over just to get to the bit you're stuck on. However, in my opinion, this repetition gives the level some more girth that it would really lack otherwise. As for the wonky portals, that's just EEs physics. It aligns you to the centre of the block and that really isn't hard to predict, especially considering that adjusting your movement based on predictable patterns is the focus of the level.

I haven't played ipwners level, so I can't really judge whether or not it's difficulty rating is valid. But from my experience of the rest of the recently added campaign, I think the difficulty ratings are fair assessments of the levels. What you seem to have a problem with is the fact that the levels are that difficulty in the first place. You seem to favour levels in the easy-medium bracket. I agree that we need more of those kinds of levels, in my opinion, at least 50% of the campaign worlds should be rated 'easy-medium' and below with the other 50% being for medium and above. But when campaigns are added with greater difficulty than you are capable of beating, you shouldn't still expect to gain the rewards. If a world is too hard for you or you just don't enjoy a level then you shouldn't expect that the worlds should be changed to fit your needs. If you spent more time suggesting levels for easy-medium tier campaigns than you did complaining about how a new campaign doesn't fit your individual needs as a player then maybe you would actually have more campaigns for you to enjoy without stress. You're right that we need more campaigns for the part of the community that are far more casual than most others, but the way you are approaching that issue isn't really helping.


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#36 2018-11-28 03:01:30

azurepudding
Member
Joined: 2016-11-18
Posts: 726

Re: Elementary!

I think mutantdevle's world could use an additional checkpoint.  Getting through the first part of the second half isn't that challenging, it only adds frustration when you die near the end of the final part.  Adding a checkpoint wouldn't really decrease difficulty, it would reduce frustration.  Typically when you fail a mini, you restart on said mini, but this sends you back to the previous easier mini because lack of checkpoint.

For the one life diving level, the one life didn't bother me that much, honestly.  What DID upset me was how you're doomed to lose if you don't max out speed.  There is at least one coin near the beginning in the deep water where you need high speed to access.  I knew with low speed I couldn't reach it, but normal speed seemed enough- it wasn't.  So I had to force a reset and max out speed instead to win.

...Archery Range

I've seen a lot of people rage over some of these tiers (won't deny I got mad a few times too), but so far (I'm at space tier 1 now), it feels like most of the rage is due to more frustrating design than difficulty.  For example, Into Magma Panic was a decent map for the most part, until at the end where Archery Range invades.  Swooping blind slider minis aren't difficult, they just take like a hundred+ deaths to figure out the solution, as it is impossible to go through and get it right on your first try.  You have to die and learn bit by bit, over and over.  This doesn't make an enjoyable experience for most players, myself included.  It feels unfair, and a cheap way to boost up the death count for unknown reasons.  At least the first slider wasn't too bad as it was short, but the second one you need precise inputs for like half a minute before the ride is finally over.  But then compare to Archery Range, where the ENTIRE level is this. 

The green key thing in ipwner's level, just literally why.  Glad to see it was changed now at least.

That said, most of the campaign set has been great.  Really, I hate to sound so negative above, but the majority has been a great experience, it's just these few instances are unfortunately the times most remembered, as you spend most of your play time stuck at these spots.

That said x2, I agree with Minimania, the campaign team seems entirely full of those who have the skill to beat hard and extreme maps.  It would be nice to have a few who lean more towards the skill range of the average player.


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#37 2018-11-28 03:24:23, last edited by Joeyc (2018-11-28 03:25:36)

Joeyc
Guest

Re: Elementary!

the only reason I don't think it deserves a cp is cause it's tier 5. Last tiers are usually meant to be hard :/

AAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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#38 2018-11-28 05:54:18, last edited by Slabdrill (2018-11-28 06:00:45)

Slabdrill
Formerly 12345678908642
From: canada
Joined: 2015-08-15
Posts: 3,295
Website

Re: Elementary!

only played water, so here's my thoughts:
t1 (i forget the name) was actually the most frustrating out of all of the worlds. There's too much unnecessary backtracking; you literally have to do a mini twice, and it's very easy to get lost. Also don't support invis portal blues.
DEEPER has a 1 life gimmick but the world is also really easy, so it makes sense for it to be rated medium
get wet is better than t1 because it has the anti-fallback portal. And the coin gate, actually; though imo it's a little unnecessary.
asurch's world is one of my favorite worlds and asurch is my favorite level creator, so i'm not saying anything about this one because bias
fish gods was... fun to make lol. other than the annoying story at the start i don't really see why it'd complained about; i had two deaths near the end, but those were completely my fault. the trip it takes to make your way back to the end increases your need to be careful instead of reckless as i find i usually am if i just hit a checkpoint.


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#39 2018-11-28 08:28:34

peace
Member
From: admin land
Joined: 2015-08-10
Posts: 6,367

Re: Elementary!

in my opinion easy-med med and med-hard are fun ahalanging but not too grindy atleast if they are rated properly


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#40 2018-11-28 09:46:27, last edited by Luka504 (2018-11-28 09:49:39)

Luka504
Member
From: Serbia,probs never heard of it
Joined: 2015-02-19
Posts: 2,583

Re: Elementary!

I think issue with hard campaigns isn't necessarily the fact that they're hard, it's just that they lack a very critical thing that a good difficult game must have: Fairness.
Fairness is what turns a map from a frustration bomb into a fun and rewarding experience. A lot of these "hard" maps in these campaigns tend to throw you in a bush of thorns and expect you to untangle yourself in the span of 10 seconds. The worlds tend to either have an absurd difficulty curve (Fish Gods), pixel-perfect jumps or movements (Escape the Lava), tests of endurance with a small amount of checkpoints (Into Magma Panic) or cheap and unpredictable deaths (Archery Range).

I don't have an issue with hard worlds, I have an issue with cheap ones.


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#41 2018-11-28 10:23:17

NorwegianboyEE
Member
From: Norway
Joined: 2015-03-16
Posts: 2,045

Re: Elementary!

Aw they nerfed the green key race in get wet? Lame...

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#42 2018-11-28 14:27:06

KirbyKareem
Member
From: America
Joined: 2018-03-31
Posts: 376

Re: Elementary!

mutantdevle wrote:
Helvi wrote:

The last water level also lacks a checkpoint, yet he refuses to add a checkpoint because "a well known, non-skilled user also beat this". And still I see people having many many troubles with this map.

I'm not sure who you mean by 'he refuses' but that's not the reason there isn't a checkpoint there.

The reason there is no checkpoint there is simply because I didn't place one. I didn't want one there because it made the level too easy when I had one there when the level was initially created over a year ago. I personally consider the level to be medium rated. Any half decent player who can beat any other medium world could probably beat this is less than 100 deaths. The world is rated medium-hard. I accept the criticism that the lack of a checkpoint means you have to replay a small part that you know how to do over and over just to get to the bit you're stuck on. However, in my opinion, this repetition gives the level some more girth that it would really lack otherwise. As for the wonky portals, that's just EEs physics. It aligns you to the centre of the block and that really isn't hard to predict, especially considering that adjusting your movement based on predictable patterns is the focus of the level.

I haven't played ipwners level, so I can't really judge whether or not it's difficulty rating is valid. But from my experience of the rest of the recently added campaign, I think the difficulty ratings are fair assessments of the levels. What you seem to have a problem with is the fact that the levels are that difficulty in the first place. You seem to favour levels in the easy-medium bracket. I agree that we need more of those kinds of levels, in my opinion, at least 50% of the campaign worlds should be rated 'easy-medium' and below with the other 50% being for medium and above. But when campaigns are added with greater difficulty than you are capable of beating, you shouldn't still expect to gain the rewards. If a world is too hard for you or you just don't enjoy a level then you shouldn't expect that the worlds should be changed to fit your needs. If you spent more time suggesting levels for easy-medium tier campaigns than you did complaining about how a new campaign doesn't fit your individual needs as a player then maybe you would actually have more campaigns for you to enjoy without stress. You're right that we need more campaigns for the part of the community that are far more casual than most others, but the way you are approaching that issue isn't really helping.

Am I the well-known, non-skilled user? also nerf moon base please


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#43 2018-11-28 16:48:07

Slabdrill
Formerly 12345678908642
From: canada
Joined: 2015-08-15
Posts: 3,295
Website

Re: Elementary!

There’s a lot of well known unskilled players.


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#44 2018-11-29 02:26:10

CaRmAgE
Member
Joined: 2018-08-17
Posts: 71

Re: Elementary!

Some of these campaign maps yet again have mismatched difficulty. For example, tiers 2 and 3 of Fire are both marked as Medium-Hard, yet the former was super easy, while the latter gets extreme by the end (and the map overall was harder). I'm confused why anyone would rate the two as the same.

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#45 2018-11-29 07:43:56

peace
Member
From: admin land
Joined: 2015-08-10
Posts: 6,367

Re: Elementary!

its Kirby master1 ravatroill and that new campaing curator guy


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#46 2018-11-29 14:02:53

KirbyKareem
Member
From: America
Joined: 2018-03-31
Posts: 376

Re: Elementary!

peace wrote:

its Kirby master1 ravatroill and that new campaing curator guy

...Tiralmo?


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#47 2018-11-29 15:43:11

peace
Member
From: admin land
Joined: 2015-08-10
Posts: 6,367

Re: Elementary!

yeah him


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#48 2018-11-29 23:57:16

azurepudding
Member
Joined: 2016-11-18
Posts: 726

Re: Elementary!

Space campaign tier 1 took me like 5 hours to beat, dang that was tough.

Space campaign tier 2 took me like 30 minutes, with almost every mini having an exploit, though even done the intended way was easy for the most part.  There were only like 2 hard minis, one with an "easy mode" button that takes away access to hologram at the end, but it actually makes the mini HARDER.

Tier 3 was harder than 2, but easier than 1 still.

I'm on tier 4 now, which also seems easier than tier 1 except for the final mini I'm stuck on.  Four T jumps in a row on single block platforms, needing to reverse direction half way in, why??

Anyway right now it's obviously ordered 1 2 3 4, but it should be more like 2 3 4 1 or 2 3 1 4.  If it weren't for the final mini I'd say 2 4 3 1 even.


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#49 2018-11-30 06:08:43

Slabdrill
Formerly 12345678908642
From: canada
Joined: 2015-08-15
Posts: 3,295
Website

Re: Elementary!

tier 1 is easy because all the campaign curators have played it at least 20 times


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#50 2018-11-30 07:42:49

peace
Member
From: admin land
Joined: 2015-08-10
Posts: 6,367

Re: Elementary!

Slabdrill wrote:

tier 1 is easy because all the campaign curators have played it at least 20 times

so? becuase they did its easy? what if they all took 3 hours per attempt: so thats 60 hours


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