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#26 2018-10-21 04:49:53

XxAtillaxX
Member
From: Canada
Joined: 2015-11-28
Posts: 3,818

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

>tfw you're half gay and apparently saying gay is still HoMoPhobIc


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#27 2018-10-21 08:37:42

Memomemo
Member
Joined: 2017-10-26
Posts: 289

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Saying "gay" was literally just a joke, and that was all it ever was.
When Zumza told us to go to a different channel as "this isn't about programming", we made another joke stating that Russian is indeed a programming language, then I went and did this.
unknown.png
This was all as a joke, I didn't intend for it to be offensive or anything like that. ALso "твоя мать гей" literally google translates to "your mother is gay".
If Zumza was to actually think about what we were JOKING ABOUT then maybe this whole thing wouldn't have happened.

Zumza is a bad mod. (He's a pretty good bonk.io player tho)


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#28 2018-10-21 08:39:43

MWstudios
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Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Zumza wrote:

In case of Gosha, TaskManager, and Tundrum, the story goes like this: they start talking in Russian in the programming channel

What is so bad at talking Russian?


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#29 2018-10-21 09:52:10

Helvi
Member
Joined: 2015-04-06
Posts: 1,103

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Censorship is ok in some forms. Like extreme and very harsh insults.
However, in most cases overly zealous discord mods just prevent a free flow of discussion and negate the actual reason for having a group chat - hence they are doing a bad job at what they do.
Btw. Is it ok when I ask zumza or anyone else if he / she is not hetero? Does it make any difference within the sense of rhetoric?


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#30 2018-10-21 10:45:41

Gosha
Dev Team
From: Russia
Joined: 2015-03-15
Posts: 5,462

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

MWstudios wrote:
Zumza wrote:

In case of Gosha, TaskManager, and Tundrum, the story goes like this: they start talking in Russian in the programming channel

What is so bad at talking Russian?

just like i said

We were talking about russian language, not in russian language.

It's not like me and maxi were casually talking in russian, the discussion was about russian language and everybody was involved in it

Last edited by Gosha (2018-10-21 10:46:05)

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#31 2018-10-21 11:23:39

Zumza
Member
From: root
Joined: 2015-02-17
Posts: 4,281

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Minam, I cannot disagree with the fact that the EE Discord Moderators could be more consistent in their actions.

The EE Discord rules aren't made the way they are to be subjective, but for the propose to be short and be sure everyone reads them.

I would also like to make a comparison between the EE rules on their core format and the EE discord rules on their core format:

EE Rules wrote:

Be nice to others and respect eachother.
Do your best to keep a nice atmosphere in the game.
Keep the chat safe for younger players.
Do not spam or harass others.

Discord Rules wrote:

Be nice to others.
No deception or fake news.
Do not intentionally harass/agitate/insult people or groups.
Never advocate self-harm.
Don't be annoying. No reaction/ping spam.
Keep discussion kid-friendly, but swearing is allowed.

They pretty much look the same for me. If you have suggestion of making more objective rules, your proposal could work not only for the EE discord but also for EE.




minam wrote:

I consider muting Gosha (temporarily for a day) as one of the dumbest decisions made. Later, you "redressed" the ban to 30 minutes, which is 48 times smaller than the first ban.

I had no real intention of letting Gosha with a 1 day mute, it was again a sign of warning to the other participants in the chat.

minam wrote:

The discord server is based on what Gosha does, yet he is muted?

Personally I do not consider the EE Discord nor the EE Forums are just about the game, they're more about the community that formed through this game. I believe both the EE Discord and the EE Forums will continue to exist even in the possibility of EE death.

Thus every user, staff or not, are treated equality to the rules of EE Discord.




minam wrote:

Yeah it might be fair and all, but maybe its just a sign that something is clearly not right.

As you said, if the mute is fair... That might not be a sign for EE Discord but for EE.

If supposedly, a user posts multiple pornographic material they will be banned no matter if they're staff or not.




Gosha wrote:

just like i said
We were talking about russian language, not in russian language.
It's not like me and maxi were casually talking in russian, the discussion was about russian language and everybody was involved in it

The conversation you had in Russian was indeed a constructive one, I cannot deny it. Here are some fragments of it:

CONTENT WARNING

But nonetheless, you weren't muted for talking in Russian but for ignoring my request to return to the topic of the channel you were in, #programming, as I already said in my first post on this topic:

Zumza wrote:

In case of Gosha, TaskManager, and Tundrum, the story goes like this: they start talking in Russian in the programming channel, and they continue their behaviour even after I asked them to stop

The moderator word is final, if a moderator asks you to stop doing something then you have to stop.

Minam also talked in Russian but unlike you he was not been muted in the course of that event because he stoped after I asked you to.

Last edited by Zumza (2018-10-21 11:31:14)


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#32 2018-10-21 12:37:15

minam
Member
Joined: 2016-02-10
Posts: 453

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Zumza wrote:

They pretty much look the same for me. If you have suggestion of making more objective rules, your proposal could work not only for the EE discord but also for EE.

Moderation within EE seems more controlled, while the discord looks chaotic, confusing, and another negative connotation word that starts with "c". Making the rules objective/specific would help the

Zumza wrote:

I had no real intention of letting Gosha with a 1 day mute, it was again a sign of warning to the other participants in the chat.

Because we all know that appeal to fear is what all the cool kids do. According to your psychology classes that you apparently take, does this work? Is using a propaganda technique really the way to go in the first place?

Zumza wrote:

As you said, if the mute is fair... That might not be a sign for EE Discord but for EE.

If supposedly, a user posts multiple pornographic material they will be banned no matter if they're staff or not.

My point was that if that many people have been muted, something has clearly gone wrong. From my short experience, the owner of the chooses the best to join the team.

Personally I do not consider the EE Discord nor the EE Forums are just about the game, they're more about the community that formed through this game. I believe both the EE Discord and the EE Forums will continue to exist even in the possibility of EE death.

Thus every user, staff or not, are treated equality to the rules of EE Discord.

Zumza wrote:

Minam also talked in Russian but unlike you he was not been muted in the course of that event because he stoped after I asked you to.

No I wanted to, but when I was pasting my Russian from Google Translate, Gosha was already gone. I thought it was quite the bummer because I wanted to join the party.


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#33 2018-10-21 13:42:33

Zumza
Member
From: root
Joined: 2015-02-17
Posts: 4,281

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Did they broke the rules? Definitely. Was muting the best thing to do? Debatable. I said from the start that if someone has a better solutions than mutes, when people are asked to stop, numerous times, and they don't comply, I gladly wait them.

EE Discord is a very hard platform to manage compared to EE and the EE Forums.

Conversations on EE have no permanent effect: when a world is closed all chat history cannot longer be accessed by the public, whereas anything ever discussed on EE Discord is permanent.

Conversations on EE Forums are also permanent, but having topics and a category system makes discussions much more easily to manage. Plus there are less posts than messages in discord. You also can't have real-time conversations on the forum thus people are enforced subconsciously to put more time in what they write and have a complete response from the start.

On EE Forums and EE, "punishments" can be applied after a couple of hours without making much difference. On EE Discord most have to be applied on spot to prevent propagation and escalation.

minam wrote:

My point was that if that many people have been muted, something has clearly gone wrong.

This is a perfect example where a situation escalated. I have no idea what could I had done more than I did. I told them to stop... Is this a rational reaction after you seen 2 people getting muted? https://i.imgur.com/Hvr1N7D.png

Perhaps, as I said, if it would had been possible to tell them to stop right in the first moments they started doing it, 0 or fewer mutes would had been necessary.

minam wrote:

From my short experience, the owner of the [game] chooses the best to join the team.

There were people more skilled and willing to help, which never been invited to be part of the EE staff. There was never a public call, a true interview or evaluation for staff members, nepotism being the keyword. But this is entirely a different conversation.

Last edited by Zumza (2018-10-21 13:53:21)


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#34 2018-10-21 14:02:56

minam
Member
Joined: 2016-02-10
Posts: 453

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Zumza wrote:

Was muting the best thing to do? Debatable.

That's what I'm debating.

Zumza wrote:

EE Discord is a very hard platform to manage compared to EE and the EE Forums.

I know.

Zumza wrote:

On EE Forums and EE, "punishments" can be applied after a couple of hours without making much difference. On EE Discord most have to be applied on spot to prevent propagation and escalation

Except that's only the case if a mod is online and active. But they aren't...Four messages could get you muted when a mod is there, but nobody really cares when the mods aren't there or are inactive.

Zumza wrote:

This is a perfect situation where a situation escalated. I have no idea what could I had done more than I did. I told them to stop... Is this a rational reaction after you seen 2 people getting muted? https://i.imgur.com/Hvr1N7D.png

Perhaps, as I said, if it would had been possible to tell them to stop right in the first moments they started doing it, 0 or fewer mutes would had been necessary.

No it's not. Sometimes you need to use tool that are inside your head such as humor to solve problems, especially on the internet. This is opposed to "seriously you have to get back on topic unless you want to be muted again" and "

This is hella long, it took 21 minutes for him to type this

"

My point still stands. The moderation on the Discord server is too unreliable atm.


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#35 2018-10-21 14:06:55

Helvi
Member
Joined: 2015-04-06
Posts: 1,103

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Zumza, just retire from your mod postion. As a result of your mere presence and random moderation no one is actually keen on discussing or argueing something.
Furthermore you just issue random "mute threats" whenever you feel like. Even the smallest mistake leads to actions from you.

You know what this is? This is called autocracy.
Step down for good.


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#36 2018-10-21 14:16:28

Pipec
Member
From: Mailboxٴٴٴٴٴٴٴٴٴٴٴٴٴٴٴٴٴٴٴٴٴٴٴ
Joined: 2017-04-15
Posts: 682

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Hi,

Zumza I'm sorry but gotta woot all the posts above against you.
For all the crappy & useless mutes you've done on me. You've proven yourself as a bad moderator many times. I had to leave server for while, my comeback wasn't even planned.

#StepDownForGood
#Demod


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#37 2018-10-21 14:34:32

ninjasupeatsninja
Member
From: USA
Joined: 2015-04-05
Posts: 1,968
Website

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

to be fair, zumza issued out verbal warnings before going off to mute the group of people talking about russian in #programming (offtopic channel, imo should've been talking in #general) and then revoked the length of the mute time after the fact.

if you want to spam, do it in #bot-commands. #bot-commands is pretty much rule free because everyone has it muted
before you know it, your chat will be covered up with bot commands.

do all your stupid retarded stuff in #bot-commands, nobody cares

on the side note, how about letting the community pick moderators since they're dissatisfied with the current moderation? might be a bad idea, but we could try it

Last edited by ninjasupeatsninja (2018-10-21 14:36:53)

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#38 2018-10-21 14:43:20

minam
Member
Joined: 2016-02-10
Posts: 453

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

ninjasupeatsninja wrote:

if you want to spam, do it in #bot-commands. #bot-commands is pretty much rule free because everyone has it muted
before you know it, your chat will be covered up with bot commands.

You can also pretty much get away with spamming when all the mods are inactive.

Personally, I want a change for the better, not a change of mods. I don't care who the mods are, as long as they mod consistently.


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#39 2018-10-21 14:46:49

Daneeko
Member
From: EE Universe
Joined: 2015-02-20
Posts: 1,878

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

thats nothing compared to the **** that happened in unity developer hub with the owner banning anyone who even lightly disagreed with him, even mods and admins


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#40 2018-10-21 14:51:15

Zumza
Member
From: root
Joined: 2015-02-17
Posts: 4,281

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Well I am glad at least Minam understands this is not an easy task. And I don't deny at all there is room for improvement in Discord moderation.

I also don't deny I've done small mistakes time to time, but I heavily deny the situation this topic was built on, was one of them.

From my perspective I was quite indulgent with the times and mute cases I handled. Especially Pipec's comment that "For all the crappy & useless mutes you've done on me. You've proven yourself as a bad moderator many times" comes to me as a surprise as in all my mod activity Pipec was only muted twice by me.

All in all, I agree there's room for improvement, I want to make clear I was looking forward to offer a better moderation for a long time, and this is where I currently am. If you believe I adapt too slowly, and if the EE Discord would generally benefit from my step down as a moderator I'll hold to my promise.

I just want to be sure you understand the possible consequences of your choice:

  • Someone better than me can come

  • Someone worse than me can come

  • There will be no one to replace me, it may be possible that the number of rule-breakers to grow


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#41 2018-10-21 15:01:19

minam
Member
Joined: 2016-02-10
Posts: 453

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Zumza wrote:

Well I am glad at least Minam understands this is not an easy task. And I don't deny at all there is room for improvement in Discord moderation.

I also don't deny I've done small mistakes time to time, but I heavily deny the situation this topic was built on, was one of them.

From my perspective I was quite indulgent with the times and mute cases I handled. Especially Pipec's comment that "For all the crappy & useless mutes you've done on me. You've proven yourself as a bad moderator many times" comes to me as a surprise as in all my mod activity Pipec was only muted twice by me.

All in all, I agree there's room for improvement, I want to make clear I was looking forward to offer a better moderation for a long time, and this is where I currently am. If you believe I adapt too slowly, and if the EE Discord would generally benefit from my step down as a moderator I'll hold to my promise.

I just want to be sure you understand the possible consequences of your choice:

  • Someone better than me can come

  • Someone worse than me can come

  • There will be no one to replace me, it may be possible that the number of rule-breakers to grow

I'm not satisfied with the modding but stepping down atm may cause more problems.
Inactivity of mods wont be helped by another mod leaving.
But please, we seriously need more mods.
Actually they need to do much more than that.

They need to:
have more unity between mods so they can mod almost as one entity. All the other mods should agree that the mute was just unless it's a rare case. (aka "get your **** together")
be more active (dyno is the only active bot a lot of the time, and we all know how good dyno is)
make sure there is at least one active mod at once (so **** doesn't go haywire)
know how to handle situations without escalating the situation (case-by-case)

Last edited by minam (2018-10-21 15:10:27)


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#42 2018-10-21 15:20:56

Helvi
Member
Joined: 2015-04-06
Posts: 1,103

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Zumza wrote:

All in all, I agree there's room for improvement, I want to make clear I was looking forward to offer a better moderation for a long time, and this is where I currently am. If you believe I adapt too slowly, and if the EE Discord would generally benefit from my step down as a moderator I'll hold to my promise.

I just want to be sure you understand the possible consequences of your choice:

  • Someone better than me can come

  • Someone worse than me can come

  • There will be no one to replace me, it may be possible that the number of rule-breakers to grow

You are asking for help which I am willing to provide based on 7 years experience as a forum mod for a MMO with around ..several thousands of users.
As a mod you should engage in discussions or explain what is going on instead of speaking out threats and just mute people for something they cannot or will not understand at this point.


"Feel free to contact me for any questions you might have"
"Hey guys, make sure it stays appropiate //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/smile "

Both sound alot better than just

"Post in general or I mute you"
"This is Everbody Edits, not Debate. Wanna get muted again?"

In all cases, work on de-escalating a situation as everything else makes it worse.


But you act like good ole Gaddafi

ypCEyhI.jpg

Why not just say "maybe you find some help in general". That would have been much better //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/wink and does not make you look like an idiot for everyone.

Last edited by Helvi (2018-10-21 15:21:45)


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#43 2018-10-21 15:45:06

Zumza
Member
From: root
Joined: 2015-02-17
Posts: 4,281

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

That image is part of the most wooted meme in EE Discord:

helvi_restored.png


It might not been that obvious but I actually intended giving a humorous vibe in the request.

Also no-one was muted in that context.



Helvi wrote:

"Post in general or I mute you"
"This is Everbody Edits, not Debate. Wanna get muted again?"

I don't recall using any of this two nor something similar to them in term of rudeness.


Helvi wrote:

As a mod you should engage in discussions or explain what is going on instead of speaking out threats and just mute people for something they cannot or will not understand at this point.

I believe this is why I am replying in this topic.


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#44 2018-10-22 03:30:38

XxAtillaxX
Member
From: Canada
Joined: 2015-11-28
Posts: 3,818

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Helvi wrote:

Zumza, just retire from your mod postion.

Helvi wrote:

Step down for good.

I don't think it's that big of a deal to be honest.

I think it'd be incredibly ironic if he were to be demoted for anything like this, given that Zoey has made a metric ****-ton of mute threats for insignificant things, including muting people for saying 'gay' ironically, even if the person who made it is gay/bisexual.

I think the best course of action would be for Zumza to concede attempting to rationalize his perspective, since it won't be given a fraction of the credence from any sort of rah-rah justice reform. Conversely, I don't think there's any actual fair resolution in this circumstance, so it'd be best if the topic were to die naturally (unlikely) or be locked as it inevitably will be once the pendulum of debate spins out of control as it often does.


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#45 2018-11-12 09:04:20

minam
Member
Joined: 2016-02-10
Posts: 453

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

yeet
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#46 2018-11-19 21:53:15

some man
Member
From: New England
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 9,071

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

^ Nope, I was wrong there. Zoey's back at it and muting repeat offenders for up to an entire day:
l77

Most people here use "gay" to mean "lame" or the like, and while this is annoying, the answer is not slapping people with a mute for continuing behavior they consider natural. Anyone who's not an extreme prescriptivist can tell whether the word "gay" is being used to actually shame the queer or as a filler word that doesn't actually refer to sexuality. "Lynch the gay" is homophobic. "That **** is hella gay" is probably not.
And from what I've seen, people being muted for this aren't changing their behavior, they usually just regard it as a problem with the person muting them. Even if there are results, it's not because they've learned to stop slinging around the word gay, they've just learned to stop using it only around the people who are muting them. So their behavior isn't actually changing, they're just stopping for the sake of people who are overly sensitive about the word itself. Come on, this is obvious.

Last edited by some man (2018-11-19 21:53:49)


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#47 2018-11-19 22:34:57

TaskManager
Formerly maxi123
From: i really should update this
Joined: 2015-03-01
Posts: 6,812

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

some man wrote:

^ Nope, I was wrong there. Zoey's back at it and muting repeat offenders for up to an entire day:
https://i.frogbox.es/l77

Most people here use "gay" to mean "lame" or the like, and while this is annoying, the answer is not slapping people with a mute for continuing behavior they consider natural. Anyone who's not an extreme prescriptivist can tell whether the word "gay" is being used to actually shame the queer or as a filler word that doesn't actually refer to sexuality. "Lynch the gay" is homophobic. "That **** is hella gay" is probably not.
And from what I've seen, people being muted for this aren't changing their behavior, they usually just regard it as a problem with the person muting them. Even if there are results, it's not because they've learned to stop slinging around the word gay, they've just learned to stop using it only around the people who are muting them. So their behavior isn't actually changing, they're just stopping for the sake of people who are overly sensitive about the word itself. Come on, this is obvious.

hell yeah when every single rule of that discord server is ambiguous and subjective we can mute members for any reason or lack thereof and for whatever duration we please
but doesnt that post put your moderator rank at risk?


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#48 2018-11-19 22:41:48

NorwegianboyEE
Member
From: Norway
Joined: 2015-03-16
Posts: 890

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Not that i even use discord at all these days, but i totally agree.

We should be allowed to say whatever we want just like in the game, censorship is bad.

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#49 2018-11-19 23:10:14

Luka504
Member
From: Serbia,probs never heard of it
Joined: 2015-02-19
Posts: 2,068

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

TaskManager wrote:

hell yeah when every single rule of that discord server is ambiguous and subjective we can mute members for any reason or lack thereof and for whatever duration we please

I mean to be fair, you can't write perfectly objective rules unless you're prepared to make a 10 page document that covers every possible scenario that could occur in a discord server. Not only are a huge majority of people unwilling to write that many rules, most people won't bother reading/remembering them all, which will probably lead to a lot more rule breaking. To make things easier for everyone involved, some vagueness is a necessity.

But don't get me wrong, I definitely don't condone Zoey doing what she's doing. Banning people over the word 'gay' is absolutely ridiculous and needs to be stopped.


How long will it take me to get banned again?
Place your bets right here.

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#50 2018-11-19 23:19:23

TaskManager
Formerly maxi123
From: i really should update this
Joined: 2015-03-01
Posts: 6,812

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Luka504 wrote:

I mean to be fair, you can't write perfectly objective rules unless you're prepared to make a 10 page document that covers every possible scenario that could occur in a discord server. Not only are a huge majority of people unwilling to write that many rules, most people won't bother reading/remembering them all, which will probably lead to a lot more rule breaking. To make things easier for everyone involved, some vagueness is a necessity.

on a spectrum of subjectivity -> objectivity theres a lot of space between a rule saying "dont be annoying" and a 10 page document "The rules of member behavior in Everybody Edits Discord Server"
making something better than "annoying bad https://wiki.everybodyedits.com/images/1/1d/005_annoyed" is not hard


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