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#1 2018-10-20 16:58:33

minam
Member
Joined: 2016-02-10
Posts: 453

(Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

People kept on saying "gay" and...

Zumza wrote:

@ncrecc In Programming Land, for instance, we came to a point where anyone who disagreed with someone else called them gay, it propagated in time.  Therefore I set up Dyno to automatically remove posts with that word. After a while the feature got deactivated and no-one noticed.  Now did the activity of that server got decreased after this enforcement? It slightly did. Which is bad. It was also bad to have people being insulted in the first place.  All in all the word itself was not censored for what it meant, but for how it was used. Muting someone is probably one of the least effective things to do. I started taking a course on education psychology, and it pretty much confirms what I already seen, people either get discouraged to talk or they start rebelling even more. The best thing to do according to this course, is to start bad behaviour as soon as it occurs, and try find something they enjoy and it is also good behaviour rather than punishment. Another thing is that sometimes kids would do such things only to drag attention, we have some well known examples for this as well. Hopefully this course will actually come with practical solutions rather than just reiterating things I already observed. :shrug:

List of people who got banned:

TundrumMax 10 minutes and 30 minutes
Minam 5 minutes
Gosha 1 day (and later "redressed" to 30 minutes)
AverageAlien/TaskManager 30 minutes (and 10 minutes)
Pipec 10 minutes
Enano2070 10 minutes

A while later, Zumza proceeds to unmute AverageAlien/TaskManager, and shorten the mute length of Gotcha/Gosha to 30 minutes from a day. AverageAlien/TaskManager was later muted 10 minutes.
He says, "Redressed their mute period"

I'm not going to jump out and say "mod aboose" yet, nor will I say whether the mutes were justified. I'm just saying that mass mutings are happening.

Here's an image so it wont just look like a text wall:
double-standard.jpg

Last edited by minam (2018-10-20 17:00:34)


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#2 2018-10-20 17:16:50

TaskManager
Formerly maxi123
From: i really should update this
Joined: 2015-03-01
Posts: 6,822

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

well it isnt the official ee discord to begin with
but yeah
the server clearly needs new mods
zoey and zumza been in the position long enough and obviously that did not impact them positively
people that have been here for slightly longer than your average noob remember the amount of mod-drama around zoey
she's been muting people for **** reasons on multiple occasions
kirby is inactive in this server and moderates only when something goes terribly wrong
red (who is he?) is completely irrelevant and comes to discord once a month, how and why tf is he still a mod?
ncrecc is fine i guess?


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#3 2018-10-20 17:19:57

Pipec
Member
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Posts: 687

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Minam, thank you for makin' such a topic.
Completely agree, I even had to leave 'cause of Zumza's toxicness.


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#4 2018-10-20 17:22:25

Different55
Forum Admin
Joined: 2015-02-07
Posts: 15,652

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Moved to Off-Topic, the unofficial Discord is unofficial.

Last edited by Different55 (2018-10-20 17:22:41)


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#5 2018-10-20 18:06:01

EnanoTLL
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From: My Home World
Joined: 2015-02-26
Posts: 51
Website

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

why can i read my name in this post what did i do now


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#6 2018-10-20 18:20:20

Anak
Member
Joined: 2015-02-18
Posts: 2,084

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

we came to a point where anyone who disagreed with someone else called them gay

Unless I'm missing something, sounds like it was deserved.

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#7 2018-10-20 18:26:07

Slabdrill
Formerly 12345678908642
From: canada
Joined: 2015-08-15
Posts: 2,856
Website

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

we wouldnt need an unofficial discord (which has some ee staff as mods) if an official one existed, but since it doesnt...


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#8 2018-10-20 18:32:10

EnanoTLL
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From: My Home World
Joined: 2015-02-26
Posts: 51
Website

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Slabdrill wrote:

we wouldnt need an unofficial discord (which has some ee staff as mods) if an official one existed, but since it doesnt...

I thought the Patreon Discord was official but oh well.


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#9 2018-10-20 18:54:10

N1KF
Wiki Mod
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 9,994

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

This is the problem with censorship and other social agendas. Whether or not people use the word like that doesn't matter. It's about why they use it.

People want to be heard. When you try to silence people, they will speak louder, especially over the internet. When I try to show other people how right I am, they want to be heard too. And I want to be heard over them. The cycle repeats until the system collapses.

The only choice left here is to be quiet and learn more about what really matters. If, for at least for a moment we try, we will have no need to prove who is right and who is wrong.

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#10 2018-10-20 19:12:28

some man
Member
From: New England
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 9,072

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Tossing around the word "gay" so often seems more childish to me than homophobic, and I don't approve of Zoey muting people for up to 2 hours just because of it. Language policing the server usually just makes people feel worse about the moderation - a majority of people here don't seem to be offended by gratuitous usage of the word "gay". Annoyed, at worst. Modeling the community to show expected behavior isn't a matter of repeatedly shushing them for what they've always considered to be regular behavior. I agree with N1KF's post, for the most part, although it's awfully pretentious and doesn't address the point head-on.

Honestly, with Zoey ranking higher than most of the moderators, it seems like I feel more pressured not to express any of this since last time there was a discussion that was even remotely disapproving of a queer hugbox sort of attitude she ended up blaming people for not accepting her.

At the same time I'd like to see people moving on from saying "gay" just to be funny lil ****. It seems like the kind of behavior that's shared by the uber-enlightened "type yag mi backwards xDXDDXxDDXdddXxdXdDDDdDD" folks.

Last edited by some man (2018-10-20 19:30:29)


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#11 2018-10-20 19:29:13

TaskManager
Formerly maxi123
From: i really should update this
Joined: 2015-03-01
Posts: 6,822

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

i kinda wish jet's server was still around
its a shame that it suddenly died

Anak wrote:

we came to a point where anyone who disagreed with someone else called them gay

Unless I'm missing something, sounds like it was deserved.

that is just a single of many cases when people got muted for autistic reasons

i should probably also mention that the rules in the server are subjective as **** and hella retarded, and some mods ban based on their own discretion more often than based on rules


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#12 2018-10-20 19:29:57

Zumza
Member
From: root
Joined: 2015-02-17
Posts: 4,283

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

What can I say? My stance on what is currently happening is already outlined in the quote you posted. I'm criticising myself for resorting to this mutes, and acknowledging the fact that it is best to use them only as a last option. I'll include it in my post to be sure it is actually read.

Zumza wrote:

@ncrecc In Programming Land, for instance, we came to a point where anyone who disagreed with someone else called them gay, it propagated in time.  Therefore I set up Dyno to automatically remove posts with that word. After a while the feature got deactivated and no-one noticed.  Now did the activity of that server got decreased after this enforcement? It slightly did. Which is bad. It was also bad to have people being insulted in the first place.  All in all the word itself was not censored for what it meant, but for how it was used. Muting someone is probably one of the least effective things to do. I started taking a course on education psychology, and it pretty much confirms what I already seen, people either get discouraged to talk or they start rebelling even more. The best thing to do according to this course, is to stop bad behaviour as soon as it occurs, and try find something they enjoy and it is also good behaviour rather than punishment. Another thing is that sometimes kids would do such things only to drag attention, we have some well known examples [in this discord server] for this as well. Hopefully this course will actually come with practical solutions rather than just reiterating things I already observed. :shrug:

Also the premise of this topic is built on omitting facts. Each group was banned in a different context and at a different time.

In case of Gosha, TaskManager, and Tundrum, the story goes like this: they start talking in Russian in the programming channel, and they continue their behaviour even after I asked them to stop, as you can clearly see here: https://i.imgur.com/Hw6lh6R.png, https://i.imgur.com/ei2ixhF.png https://i.imgur.com/OgsKCdr.png https://i.imgur.com/Hvr1N7D.png

For Minam simply spamming: https://i.imgur.com/Bnf4z5x.png

Tundrum was the only person in the list actually using the word gay, but again that was more as a form of spam: https://i.imgur.com/ZoGP11K.png

As far as I know, Red is not longer a moderator and leaved the server entirely because you tend not only to complain about actions but also lack of actions when we are too lenient.

I am voluntarily a discord moderator, I am doing this primarily for the community, and if I fell a majority of this community would like me to relinquish, I am not going to look back. I do not want to be part of a forum drama revolving around me.

I also propose you take a thoughtful exercise of how would you react in my position, after you reread my post and understood it in full. That would be the constructive thing you could do, rather than just complaining and pointing fingers. Thank you.


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#13 2018-10-20 19:30:49

NorwegianboyEE
Banned
From: Norway
Joined: 2015-03-16
Posts: 892

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

N1KF wrote:

This is the problem with censorship and other social agendas. Whether or not people use the word like that doesn't matter. It's about why they use it.

People want to be heard. When you try to silence people, they will speak louder, especially over the internet. When I try to show other people how right I am, they want to be heard too. And I want to be heard over them. The cycle repeats until the system collapses.

The only choice left here is to be quiet and learn more about what really matters. If, for at least for a moment we try, we will have no need to prove who is right and who is wrong.

That's gay.

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#14 2018-10-20 19:40:29

Luka504
Member
From: Serbia,probs never heard of it
Joined: 2015-02-19
Posts: 2,070

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

The thing I mostly dislike about Zoey in a status of power is that she tends to let her emotions and personal beliefs dictate the way she moderates the discord server. Oftentimes the reasons I get muted are for making a very obvious and not in any way offensive joke. My latest mute came because I deleted messages that I wrote as part of a joke. That's all I did. She came in telling us to stop, I wrote "ok" and then deleted it, and got muted. You could argue that I was disobeying staff, but the premise of my mute was that Zoey doesn't like jokes.
She tried justifying muting me by saying I was being annoying (Even though all I did was delete messages).

This isn't the first time Zoey has muted someone for a ridiculous reason, and likely won't be the last. This in turn lead me, and I presume others, to filtering what they say as to not personally offend her. I oftentimes see certain users deleting something they just wrote because the message was "risky", so to avoid a mute they delete it before the mods notice.

Ncrecc is a pretty reasonable mod, Kirby and Red are so inactive I forget they're there half the time, and Zoey seems to be handing out mutes to anyone who dares as much breathe in their presence. I honestly don't know how to feel about Zumza though.

Last edited by Luka504 (2018-10-20 20:20:30)


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#15 2018-10-20 19:51:14

Anak
Member
Joined: 2015-02-18
Posts: 2,084

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

TaskManager wrote:
Anak wrote:

we came to a point where anyone who disagreed with someone else called them gay

Unless I'm missing something, sounds like it was deserved.

that is just a single of many cases when people got muted for autistic reasons

i should probably also mention that the rules in the server are subjective as **** and hella retarded, and some mods ban based on their own discretion more often than based on rules

I would mute you for your language in this post too so lmao good luck w that

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#16 2018-10-20 20:18:58

TaskManager
Formerly maxi123
From: i really should update this
Joined: 2015-03-01
Posts: 6,822

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

wew let the **** start

Anak wrote:
TaskManager wrote:
Anak wrote:

we came to a point where anyone who disagreed with someone else called them gay

Unless I'm missing something, sounds like it was deserved.

that is just a single of many cases when people got muted for autistic reasons

i should probably also mention that the rules in the server are subjective as **** and hella retarded, and some mods ban based on their own discretion more often than based on rules

I would mute you for your language in this post too so lmao good luck w that

ok nothing relevant to say, understandable

Luka504 wrote:

She tried justifying muting me by saying I was being annoying

this is what i meant by "**** rules"
first half of rule #5 is "don't be annoying"
a mod could deem anything you say as annoying and mute you as per rule

Zumza wrote:

In case of Gosha, TaskManager, and Tundrum, the story goes like this: they start talking in Russian in the programming channel, and they continue their behaviour even after I asked them to stop, as you can clearly see here: https://i.imgur.com/Hw6lh6R.png, https://i.imgur.com/ei2ixhF.png https://i.imgur.com/OgsKCdr.png https://i.imgur.com/Hvr1N7D.png

on the last #programming screenshot that you provided we can see that my last message was actual program pseudocode:

large screenshot (brought to you by zumza)

after you mute me i proceed to argue about that in DMs (obviously)

large screenshots

roughly around 18:49 (timezone is UTC+3) i gained access to chat (but i did not find an unmute command sent by zumza in any of the channels which is weird??)
i also saw that my username is still gray (meaning muted) in the chat, so i decided to test my username color by sending a message in #general
my username appeared white, so i thought the username color thing could be exclusive to #programming channel
so i sent a test message (actually two) in #programming as well. zumza didn't like it and i had to explain the situation. ninja interfered and i politely asked him to return to wherever he came from
and i got muted again! for 10 minutes! after auto unmute by timer running out i couldn't find zumza sending a message for muting me so
minam, how did you know it was a 10 minutes mute? (i doubt you actually recorded the time)

screenshots

aaaaaaaaaand heres my dms with zumza after i got muted for the 2nd time

CONTENT WARNING

so ya thats the story


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#17 2018-10-20 21:18:58

Zumza
Member
From: root
Joined: 2015-02-17
Posts: 4,283

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

As I said before in the server, I cannot always answer direct messages as soon as I get them, you have to wait. I am not staying on my computer just for moderating the Discord server. Yes I did reply to Gosha before I replied to you, but that was merely because he contacted me before you did.

The mute rectifications were also made in #bot-commands, they were all public.

And the situation for your second mute goes like this:
1. You got unmuted.
2. I asked everyone to respect the topic of that channel, that is #programming.
3. You started again off-topic-ing.
4. I asked you again to stop, along with ninja.
5. You were at the point of starting an argument in there again with both me and ninja. Or at least that is how I felt it.

You could had done so many things:

  • Ask me directly on DM if you were muted just for #programming

  • Delete your post after you've seen you weren't muted

  • Testing if you're muted with a post that would had been actually on-topic.

I believe the last one would had been the most logical thing to do, but that is just my opinion.

I mean why would you check if you can do something unless you have the intention of doing it? Couldn't you check only when you actually needed it? Considering the situation, after all you were muted for being off-topic in the first place, why would you risk that again, given so many warnings?

You don't have to answer this questions they are purely rhetorical.

I felt you were at the same point as you were before the mute, arguing and finding excuses for you being off-topic. That is why, your mute in the end, was as long as it was set in the beginning, 30 minutes. You've done 20 already, so 10 remained.

Last edited by Zumza (2018-10-20 21:24:12)


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#18 2018-10-20 21:46:51

N1KF
Wiki Mod
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 9,994

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Okay, I'm glad I'm not a moderator anymore.

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#19 2018-10-20 21:59:05

TaskManager
Formerly maxi123
From: i really should update this
Joined: 2015-03-01
Posts: 6,822

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Zumza wrote:

many words

oh well my bad i missed the #bot-commands thing because who reads that anyway
whats so bad about testing my username color in a channel by posting a short random message? why should it also depend on my previous behavior if that was already dealt with?
i tested it, you warned me, i explained politely
then ninja rolls in without having any idea what i was doing and starts minimodding
i obviously did not like that


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#20 2018-10-20 22:35:16

Zumza
Member
From: root
Joined: 2015-02-17
Posts: 4,283

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

TaskManager wrote:

whats so bad about testing my username color in a channel by posting a short random message? why should it also depend on my previous behavior if that was already dealt with?
i tested it, you warned me, i explained politely

Then I politely asked you again to stop, again, and then:

TaskManager wrote:

then ninja rolls in without having any idea what i was doing and starts minimodding
i obviously did not like that

And you start reiterating the whole thing again.


As I said in the previous post:

Zumza wrote:

I felt you were at the same point as you were before the mute, arguing and finding excuses for you being off-topic. That is why, your mute in the end, was as long as it was set in the beginning, 30 minutes. You've done 20 already, so 10 remained.

I am hoping we aren't getting circular here. You kept the anger, you kept the original mute period. What has been done was done. Truly, you may not have intended any of this and it may had been just a series of unfortunate reactions, which is a bit hard to believe.

I think I was more than clear that the topic must be restored and no other messages are to be allowed there, considering I said it 4 times:

Discord wrote:

Zumza: stop this please
Zumza: Now I hope you can get back on topic.
Zumza: seriously you have to get back on topic unless you want to be muted again
Zumza: get something from r/programmerhumor to cheer things up @TaskManager


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#21 2018-10-20 22:52:55

Pingohits
Member
From: aids lizard
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 7,580

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

join bedwar

pros:
- kirby owns it
- i am a mod
- you can say gay with no repercussions

cons:
-


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#22 2018-10-20 23:01:06

TaskManager
Formerly maxi123
From: i really should update this
Joined: 2015-03-01
Posts: 6,822

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Pingohits wrote:

cons:
-almost entirety of the discussion happens in private channels
-only 2 public channels (3 with color request)
-barely any discussion in public channels
-most of the community is not in that server

ftfy


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#23 2018-10-20 23:15:46

Pingohits
Member
From: aids lizard
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 7,580

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

TaskManager wrote:
Pingohits wrote:

cons:
-almost entirety of the discussion happens in private channels
-only 2 public channels (3 with color request)
-barely any discussion in public channels
-most of the community is not in that server

ftfy

this is why you're not in priv chat


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#24 2018-10-20 23:22:55

TaskManager
Formerly maxi123
From: i really should update this
Joined: 2015-03-01
Posts: 6,822

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Pingohits wrote:
TaskManager wrote:
Pingohits wrote:

cons:
-almost entirety of the discussion happens in private channels
-only 2 public channels (3 with color request)
-barely any discussion in public channels
-most of the community is not in that server

ftfy

this is why you're not in priv chat

this is why bedwar more like badwar

Last edited by TaskManager (2018-10-20 23:23:03)


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#25 2018-10-21 03:30:28

minam
Member
Joined: 2016-02-10
Posts: 453

Re: (Metaphorically) Everyone's Getting Muted

Zumza wrote:

Also the premise of this topic is built on omitting facts.

No. The premise of this topic was built on my saltiness.
(and also the fact that you're muting a third of the people that were active at the time)

Zumza wrote:

you tend not only to complain about actions but also lack of actions when we are too lenient.

No. I'm complaining about not being consistent with the actions the discord staff take. Solve this, and I would be completely satisfied.

Zumza wrote:

Each group was banned in a different context and at a different time.

The point is that all the mods interpret the rules in different ways. All I'm asking for are objective rules and consistent modding.

I consider muting Gosha (temporarily for a day) as one of the dumbest decisions made. The discord server is based on what Gosha does, yet he is muted? Yeah it might be fair and all, but maybe its just a sign that something is clearly not right. Later, you "redressed" the ban to 30 minutes, which is 48 times smaller than the first ban.(quick mafs)

I'm not going to say being an ee discord mod is easy, because it isn't, but it's just so important to keep it working, since its the closest thing to an official discord server that anyone can join. If things were working right, this many mutes wouldn't have been needed. Without it, what would unite the EE community outside of the game? If the point of the discord staff is to

I also propose you take a thoughtful exercise of how to "stop bad behavior as soon as it occurs," after you reread my post and understood it in full. That would be the constructive thing you could do, rather than just complaining and pointing fingers. Thank you.
Also don't expect constructive criticism from the internet.

Last edited by minam (2018-10-21 03:31:22)


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