Religion, islam and christianity. [SERIOUS TOPIC]

TheGreenTroll · Before February 2015

FIRST OF ALL: Keep this at a good level. This is a serious thread about a serious topic. No flaming, no harassments, no bad words etc. Use good arguments that is relevant for this topic. Don't go off topic. Keep it clean and serious.

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Okay. So I had a discussion with Watashii and Danni, in game, about religion.

Both claimed that christianity and islam is equally bad. But now I will show them, and all of you whom believes that radical muslims isn't true muslims, wrong.

First I will start with christianity.

Many people that are criticizing christianity uses sources from the old testament. And yes, there are some nasty things in the old testament. But that is not relevant for the discussion about christianity. Since christianity is founded in Jesus believes about love and respect, christians can't stand responsible for what's in the old testament. That's why we are having the new testament.

In the old testament, God was the God of revenge. But if you have studied religion in school, you will know that God changed and became the God of forgiveness (new testament). So, basically, christians lives by the new testament, that's about loving your friends, family, strangers and even enemies. Christians doesn't live by the old testament, that's the jews part of the book.

Furthermore. The bible is not Gods words. The bible, and especially the new testament is based on how humans have interpret Jesus message, and therefore we also can interpret Jesus and the bibles message.

So, christians whom motivates bad actions through christianity, is lying, and they don't know what they are talking about, since christianity doesn't encourage bad actions.

But with islam, it's totally different...

Islams holy book, the Quran, is a direct transcript of Allahs word. That means it can't be interpret, it's Allahs absolute words.

That's what making islam so much worse than christianity, and I will tell you why...

In the Quran, it says that christians and jews should be killed, countries invaded and converted, if the countries population refuses, they shall be killed or tortured until they accept Allah. Husbands is allowed to beat their wifes and also rape them. Men is allowed to have 4 wifes, and they can be under 18 years old. Islams prophet Muhammad married a 9-year old girl, Aisha, in other words, he was a pedophile.

And a true muslim must live by these words. The media has given us the image that it's the terrorists, Al Qaida and Al-Shaabab that's radical, and that they are not true muslims. But that is completely wrong. Those people are following the words from the Quran. They are living by Allahs word. But in fact, it's the religion itself that is radical (if you compare the Qurans message with western values). This might come as a shock for alot of you, but it's true.

And the muslims whom claims that the Qurans message can be interpret is lying. There is an action in islam that's called Taqqiyah, wich means that you are allowed to lie to give islam and/or yourself a good position, and to sneak out from hard situations, were you, as a muslim, have your back against the wall.

So, muslims whom claims that Allahs words can be interpret is LYING, because that's accepted in islam, by the Quran.

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Finally, I just want to tell everyone that I don't have anything against moderate muslims, but those people are actually not living by the Quran. And I condemn bad actions from both muslims and christians, since that shouldn't be a part of this world.

I respect all human beings, I don't care if you are black, white, yellow, muslim, christian or buddhist. You have the right to say anything you want, but you can't do anything you want.

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I will add some passages from the Quran to show you that I'm not making this up.

Also, there might be some flaws and heavy misspellings in this text, but that's because I'm really, really tired. I will come back tomorrow and fix possible flaws and misspellings.

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To mods, don't close this topic, this is educational! Remember, free speech.

Peace

[TL;DR]

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EDIT: Since many people didn't understand that the purpose with this thread was to discuss christianity "versus" islam, I'll say it now. Topic is christianity and islam, compared to each other.

Last edited by TheGreenTroll (Mar 29 2011 10:48:55 am)

Chewy · Before February 2015

I'm offended. /sarcasm

Kaosslasher · Before February 2015

Im not sure if this is what you were getting at: but people teach bull crap about christianity in schools, pure bs.

Alex · Before February 2015

Many people that are criticizing christianity uses sources from the old testament. And yes, there are some nasty things in the old testament. But that is not relevant for the discussion about christianity. Since christianity is founded in Jesus believes about love and respect, christians can't stand responsible for what's in the old testament. That's why we are having the new testament.

Indeed, any Christian who lives by any rules set in the old testament is doing his/her religion wrong

Which is why any Christian arguing against gay marriage(or homosexuality in general) fails at his/her own religion and needs to stop being a moron.

Mel Mel · Before February 2015

I don't have a problem with gay marriage. I just think it's strange. Although, I am 12...

Zoey2070 · Before February 2015

TheGreenTroll wrote:

This is a serious thread about a serious topic. No flaming, no harassments, no bad words etc. Use good arguments that is relevant for this topic. Don't go off topic. Keep it clean and serious.
To mods, don't close this topic, this is educational! Remember, free speech.

Sorta contradicting yourself there.

Plus, religion in itself is pretty bs.

Kaslai · Before February 2015

I smell a troll...
Anyways, "The bible, and especially the new testament is based on how humans have interpret Jesus message, and therefore we also can interpret Jesus and the bibles message." That's wrong, the bible is actually the inerrant word of God, according to Christians.

EDIT: And actually, reading this in a less sleep-deprived state, I can also tell you some more stuff. God (Christianity) has always been the same God, however the peoples over time have changed. He sent Jesus at a time when it was needed most. Now, how Jesus saved the world is dependent on which sect/religion you associate with, however, Jesus saved all people (even people from pre-Jesus times, as time is a struct created for our feeble minds, and it doesn't affect the immortal.)

Last edited by Aslai (Mar 28 2011 9:23:54 pm)

RPGMaster2000 · Before February 2015

I'm too lazy to post opinions of my own so I'll just leave this brilliant QualiaSoup video here...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNDZb0KtJDk[/youtube]

Chimi · Before February 2015

You got most of the Christianity stuff wrong. You shouldn't talk about things like this if you don't know enough about them yourself.

Watashii · Before February 2015

I'll begin my visit in this thread by pasteing this thing I've created another thread about some day ago;

"So I was thinking earlier about how a lot of theists I've met during my life have claimed that you can't live morally without a god. I of course think this is wrong, and decided to compare a "good" atheist with a "good" theist. You can think that the theist pretty much act good for a personal winning; getting to heaven and to avoid hell. They live to please a god whom they fear so they'll get eternal pleasure instead of eternal punishment. It's bad that they base their good act on personal winning, rather than a genuine concern for your fellowman.

So, what is a good human? Is it someone who under threats and force and promises about rewards in the afterlife follows rules written in a book thousands of years ago? Or is it someone who by their own free will tries to be a helpful and good man and is free to evolve over time, completely untied by rules written in a society thousands of years ago with totally values than what we have today?"
(It's 7am, and I have to get ready for school, so no time to reply to anything else in this thread.)

Chimi · Before February 2015

Or you could just give us a link.

Watashii · Before February 2015

TheGreenTroll wrote:

In the old testament, God was the God of revenge. But if you have studied religion in school, you will know that God changed and became the God of forgiveness (new testament).

I'm curious in how this is possible. It seems odd that an allmighty, allknowing and already perfect being such as God can suddenly change. And why did he decide to change?

Alex wrote:

Indeed, any Christian who lives by any rules set in the old testament is doing his/her religion wrong

I've always thought about it like this;
All of the the bible is equally much Gods words. And if you happen to believe in this guy, you should care as much as what he says in the old testament, as in the new one. Who are you to say that *that and that* bible quote is relevant, and *those other ones* are not? How can you know that God does not want you to live by what's being said in the old testament? And how do you know that Gods real words aren't in the qur'an, or in the Tanakh? In other words; what makes your religion more true than any other?

I guess this reasoning fails when I read:

TheGreenTroll wrote:

Furthermore. The bible is not Gods words.

This is quite different from what I've heard from some(read: all) Christians; whom says that the bible is indeed Gods words. I'd like to request a source where it says it's not. o_O

Also; read what the friendly Jesus says in Luke 19:27: "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.".

TheGreenTroll · Before February 2015

Aslai: No, God changed. Old testament God is the God of revenge, the jewish God. New testament God is the God of forgiving, the christian God.

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Chimi: Tell me what is wrong then.

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Watashii: I believe that a good human is a human that is carefull and helps people, and can sacrifice her own luck for someone else whom is in greater need.

I don't know why he changed, I'm not God, and I can't understand God. But although I believe that there is some kind of being that we referr to as God.

The difference between the OT, and the NT, is that the NT is a reformation of judaism. And that reformation became christianity. A christian might believe in the OT, but, a christian doesn't need to live by the OT. If a chrisitan lives by the OT, he is living in jewish manners.

The reason why you have heard that the bible is Gods words might be because christians believes that the way the bible teach to live, is the way God teaches to live. The bible, in difference with the quran, isn't Gods direct transcript of words.

The bible is composed of several books, all written by humans. The quran was given to Muhammad by the angel Jibril, whom got the book from Allah.

Luke 19:27 is a story told by Jesus. First of all, it's a story about a man whom gave money to his servants. The man wanted his servants to make business and earn more money. But one servant, came back with the same amount of money that he was given. And there is a discussion between the man and his servants, and the passage you are quoting, is what the man says to his other servants.

Get a bible and read the whole story, and you will understand. It's "The Parable of the Ten Minas".

Gamer1120 · Before February 2015

I don't believe and I want to keep that. It costs too much time.

Chimi · Before February 2015

Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are all seperate accounts from different people on the same thing. They are the gospels, and they all tell about Jesus' life on earth.

In order to fully make you understand what is wrong with what you've stated, though, you'd have to go to church.

Last edited by Chimi (Mar 29 2011 11:06:17 am)

TheGreenTroll · Before February 2015

Yes, and have I said anything that claims the opposite?

Tell me wich of my claims that is false.

Last edited by TheGreenTroll (Mar 29 2011 11:11:03 am)

Koto · Before February 2015

Well: Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are all really different sides of the same story. My honest opinion is that I don't believe in God. I don't want to get too involve in this topic, however, because this topic has been discussed numerous times (Not here, I'm talking about worldwide) and nothing new seems to come from it. I hope that this topic does not spin out of control, for it's own sake. Because topics on this stuff tend to have a high probability of flaming occurring.

Chimi · Before February 2015

Many people that are criticizing christianity uses sources from the old testament. And yes, there are some nasty things in the old testament. But that is not relevant for the discussion about christianity. Since christianity is founded in Jesus believes about love and respect, christians can't stand responsible for what's in the old testament.Christians did what is in the old testament. Yes, Some of the stuff doesn't happen in today's society, such as making sacrifices because of sins commited. Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins permanently, if we choose to accept him. He was the ultimate sacrifice, and the last sacrifice. Also, in the old testament, specifically in Deuteronomy, alot of laws were given. The Ten Commandments, for example. These are still followed and very important to today's Christians. As Paul says in Galatians 3, "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by ALL things written in the book of the law, to perform them." He's quoting Deuteronomy 27:26, and actually adds the word "all" into the verse to make a point - that if you're going to try to obey some of the law, you better obey ALL of it. That's why we are having the new testament.
In the old testament, God was the God of revenge.Why do you think that? But if you have studied religion in school,School is no substitute for church. One quick chapter on Christianity doesn't give nearly enough information, or actual Christian's view on the Bible. They are from a non-Christian's view. you will know that God changed and became the God of forgiveness (new testament).God has always forgiven everyone. In the Old Testament, he performed miracles. He made the lame walk, the blind see, the deaf hear, and even brought people such as Lazarus back to life. I'd call that forgiveness. So, basically, christians lives by the new testament,Christians live by both. that's about loving your friends, family, strangers and even enemies. Christians doesn't live by the old testament, that's the jews part of the book. Jews are people from Judea, which is two of the twelve tribes of Israel. What makes you think that Jews would pull the Bible apart and only read and believe the Old Testament?
Furthermore. The bible is not Gods words.2 Timothy 3:16. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. The bible, and especially the new testament is based on how humans have interpret Jesus message, and therefore we also can interpret Jesus and the bibles message.
So, christians whom motivates bad actions through christianity, is lying, and they don't know what they are talking about, since christianity doesn't encourage bad actions.

TheGreenTroll · Before February 2015

I don't really get your message in the first red part. But yes, some stuff from the old testament was teached by Jesus. And Paul is not God. Paul is a servant of God, and that qoutation CAN be interpret. There is a huge difference from todays society and Pauls society, and also the meaning in words. And as I've said before, the old testament is learning judaism, not how a christian should live. If the old testament would learn how christians should live, there would be no meaning with the new testament.

Second part: I've studied religion, and especially christianity, all in all like 1 year, with 1½ hours lessons every third day. I've also been going to church.

My teacher, whom is a christian, catholic (kind off secularized), I'm protestant, learned us that the OT God was the God of revenge, because everytime mankind failed him, he punished them, and he learned his servants to punish infidels, as you described with your deuteronomy-quote.

Jews doesn't accept Jesus as Messiah, therefore they don't believe in his teachings (the new testament), hence that is irrelevant for Judaism.

Again, Timothy isn't written by God. It's written by a human. You can interpret that. What does it mean with God-breathed? That it's possible to write because of God? In my bible, it says inspired by God. Does that mean that the scripture is written because that the author was inspired by God? You can interpret it in so many different possible ways, so that quote doesn't mean much.

Watashii · Before February 2015

TheGreenTroll:
I'm glad we have pretty much the same definition of what a good man is. But what I've never understood is why a lot of believers claims that you need a God in order to achieve such goodness. The main point of my post what to share my thoughts about how a "good atheist" is "better" than a "good theists". The atheist can be good for whatever reason, and is not tied to "absolute" rules written thousands of years ago (Jesus teachings). The atheist would most likely have formed his moral code by his own thoughts and views, through experience from life and so on, and not just have copied it from a book. And they're more likely to act good on their own free will, rather than to please a God to avoid hell.
I guess that acting good to avoid hell and get into heaven conflicts with your views, because then you're doing it for yourself and not someone else. And doing it for someone else is what being good is by your definition.
Let me develop why it shouldn't be possible for God to change. The reason why anyone would like to change, can be either because you're unhappy with yourself, and decide to change. Or because you're affected by something that makes you change. Or because you're forced to change.
The first one would be impossible; as an almighty, all knowing, and already perfect being shouldn't be able to be unhappy with himself. And I doubt such a being, that stands over everything in the universe would be affected by anything other than himself, making the second and third part flawed.
I have a another theory about why God changed. The people who the different parts of the bible all lived in different time periods, and is based on their views on their surroundings and how the society where. The evil side of God in the old testament might have been to show the people back then that you don't want to mess with him, or something like that. That he "changed" might simply have been that the people who wrote the new testament decided that they do not want to show such an evil god, and instead made him good. This is sorta like what Aslai said earlier: "God has always been the same God, however the peoples over time have changed".
What you said about the NT being irrelevant to jews is true (and interesting). I've had this confirmed from a jewish guy on a different forum. But I still question Christians not following the OT. I asked earlier about this, and said this:
"Who are you to say that *that and that* bible quote is relevant, and *those other ones* are not?"
So you only follow the NT. Because that's what Christians are supposed to do, according to you. But how do you know that Christianity (according to you) follows the right stuff/ have interpret it the right way? What makes the guys who only follows the OT, or the Qur'an wrong, and how can you tell?
So you've come to the conclusion that Islam is much better (morally) than Christianity. Is it just because of the moral that you'd rather be a Christian? Because you know, something being good/bad does not make it any more true/false. I have kind of got the feeling that the only reason for you to choose Christianity over Islam or Jewism is because "the message is nicer". So my next question is; why can't you be an atheist and live morally?

I'd like to see all these questions answered, if possible.

EDIT: Sorry for potential misspellings, bad grammar and poor sentence structure. Also, this topic have turned out rather nice and interesting so far. I'd like to call out a big AMEN and HALLELUJAH for TheGreenTroll who's taking his time writing (in) this thread.

Last edited by Watashii (Mar 29 2011 2:43:41 pm)

lillsneppe · Before February 2015

Jews are people from Judea, which is two of the twelve tribes of Israel. What makes you think that Jews would pull the Bible apart and only read and believe the Old Testament?

... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah ...

As you can read there, their holy text is the same as the first 5 books of the Old Testament..

Rhythm · Before February 2015

This topic sucks.

We all have our own religions, so let's just keep it that way.

Nothing to prove, nothing to say, so just keep quiet.

God gave us free will, did He not?

So let us be free, and WILL you close this fking topic?

Chimi · Before February 2015

lillsneppe wrote:

Jews are people from Judea, which is two of the twelve tribes of Israel. What makes you think that Jews would pull the Bible apart and only read and believe the Old Testament?
... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah ...
As you can read there, their holy text is the same as the first 5 books of the Old Testament..

@ lilsneppe - Oh. I'm not too familiar with Judiasm.
@TGT - God-breathed means that it is all through Him. It was His Will for the Bible to be written exactly the way it was written.
@Rhythm - Most religious groups teach that members should share their beliefs with others. I don't know if you are religious, but you don't have to look at this topic. Yes, God gave us free will, but he gave us a choice of whether or not to be responsible with our privelege of free will.
This topic, to me, is about teaching others what I know, and learning about other religions from them.

DBear · Before February 2015

This just in: does uber christian upbringing have links to prejudice and hatefulness to other religions?!

News at 11.

TheGreenTroll · Before February 2015

Whatashii: I don't need a God, to be a nice man. I could do whatever I like, and I still need no God for that. Being nice is not the reason why I'm believing in God.

There is certain definitions in our society that decides what's good and what's not good, and it's different in other societies. As you for sure knows, our society got heavy infuences from christianity. We have the same definition for kindness. I believe in God, and you doesn't. That shows that we doesn't necessarily need to have a God to be a good human being. As you have said. And I totally agree with that.

And as you say, an atheist, can be good for whatever reason. But, in wich ways, are the most of the atheists good? And in wich ways are the most of the christians good? As I stated earlier, christian values has heavily influenced our society. And the societys definition of kindness, could be describe, almost, in the same words as how christians believes that you are good. So, basically, what I'm trying to say here, is that it's not, directly, christianity whom have formed my values, but it's the society, and the same with you (I believe). The only difference, is that I believe in the religion that stated that these values are the best values, if you want to be a good human.

Christian values is actually nothing more than common sense.

You get into heaven by believing in Gods message, and trying to live by and follow Gods message. Flawing in life is natural, and God forgives.
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As I said before, I can't explain, and I don't understand why God changed. That's just the way I've been teached, and we can't always understand God. Therefore, I can't give a good answer to your statements, since they are very logic. I'm usually the one whom only believes in logic, but not this time.

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I will try to explain this as detailed as I can.

The new testament, is the book of teaching how to live as a christian. That's from were you get all the teachings and the story of Jesus life. So, the NT is educational in terms of how to live as a christian.

The old testament, is the book of teaching how to live as a jew. And for christians, the OT is irrelevant in terms of how to live as a christian. But the OT is important for christians in some ways. It tells us how the world was before christianity, the origin of mankind, how judaism was spread and how mankind opposed God, etc.

And I can't be 100 % sure if everything in the bible is interpret in the right way, but protestantism is one of the most basic versions of christianity. It's just about what Jesus said, believe in God, love your friend and foe, and forgive those whom have hurted you. And if that's interpret in the right way, who knows, but I believe it's a good philosophy.

Islam or judaism might be true, but I don't believe in that. The reason why I chose to not be a muslim, or a jew (I can't be a jew since I'm not of jewish heritage), is because I find those religions moral values wrong, and I believe in Jesus and that he was the son of God. Christianity is natural for me. I don't believe in values as brutalization, rape, polygamy (these three is islamic values), and racial superiority (judaism). As I said before, I believe in common sense.

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The reason why I can't be an atheist is simple: I believe in God.

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I hope that I've answered all of your questions now, it was kind off heavy...
And I would like to call out a God bless you all, even if you believe that I'm crazy.

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Rhythm: Please be more specific. Why does this topic suck? Does it suck because I opposse bad moral values, that ain't discussed nowadays, because we are afraid to be called islamofobic? Do you believe in rape, brutalization and polygamy? Do you believe that those are good values? Would you accept those values in your country? Would you accept mutilation and execution by stoning?
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Chimi: That's one way to interpret the word theopneustos, that it means that it's Gods will. But you can also interpret it in other ways.

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Danni: That all depends on how the family is.

I've grown up in a laidback family, we just believe in God. My parents haven't forced me to believe in God. Actually, I do nothing more than believe in God, and Jesus love message. That's my philosophy. And I'm rarely going to church anymore.

The reason why I'm oppossing islam, is because of what I've learned in my two latest years in life. I've studied passages from the Quran, written scientific reports about terrorism and how it's linked to the Qurans message. I've tried to broaden my perspective about islam.

And I don't opposse islam just because it opposses christianity. I opposse islam because of it's values, wich I believe are insane. I was christian two years ago, I didn't know much at all about islam, therefore I had no opinion about the religion itself. Now, I know much more, I'm still christian, and I opposse islams values and those whom preaches those values.

I do that as a christian, and I do that as a "normal" person.

I doesn't see is as prejudice or hatefullness, I see it as sanity.

Last edited by TheGreenTroll (Mar 29 2011 4:12:42 pm)

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