Official Everybody Edits Forums

It's in my bookmarks, and it's just in my muscle memory to click on that little face with sunglasses whenever I open a new tab sometimes - especially if I'm just absentmindedly clicking while listening to something.

Finally. A happy ending

The point of 'why bother buying the game if it's not going to be the same and you're not going to retain the community' is a valid one. In hindsight, just making a new game inspired by EE might have been a better financial decision. But I disagree that not making a significant effort to keep the current community hyped would be the worst financial decision ever. Holding the legal rights to the name 'Everybody Edits' connects it strongly to that history and brings name recognition. I'm certain there will be some people who'd check out the new game just because they remember playing the original EE at some point - whether they were social within the community or not. Creating something new would also have meant a period of time without any news. Except in our current circumstances, there WILL be people who check it out once they hear of it again whereas if the title was unrelated to EE the number of people who'd still be interested would be greatly decreased. We also don't want to just make a game inspired by EE, we do want it to be identifiable as an EE sequel. But to clarify my point, we aren't going to make decisions about the game's design just to cater to veterans of the game. So inevitably, there will be some who dislike some of the changes made in the final product.

It is. I'd consider this forum to be the most sensible and constructive place for conversations about EE.

I'd like to clarify that Satanya is not the only person who has worked on EE! whose mental health has been negatively affected. Behind the scenes, we've even have had people come and go. Even if people behind the scenes aren't actively a part of the community, they have still seen comments that people have made. That's a large part of why Satanya stopped leaking graphics as much. Seeing how part of the community behaves can be very demotivating and I do not blame anyone who has taken one look at how toxic we can be and decided they don't want to be a part of the project.

Apparently he was trolling the whole time. When we're at a point where we can't even trust that the positivity is genuine you can understand why people want to spend time away or just not be involved at all.

No. Progress is being made where it can be and despite everything, last I heard, there is still some enthusiasm for the project. Everyone's job is open for them if/when they are able to come back. But you are right that it is best we hire more people.
However,

We have one. Ending the project and moving on is something that has been spoken about. Currently, there is a plan in place but if that plan fails then there's a chance it will mean giving up. So in answer to anyone reasoning why we don't hire more people: naturally we're not going to spend money if we're not 100% certain the project will continue. But if it is successful, then yes, hiring more people is absolutely what we're going to do. If the project does end, then we'll definitely update people on it and I will make sure that everywhere people might look for news about EE, such as on the blog, will contain that information. I'm sure people will have more questions such as what our current plan is, when we will make that decision by, or what happens afterwards, but I am not looking to answer those questions right now. In the meantime, no news is good news.

At this point, I don't think it's necessary to make any update posts or announcements unless we have something tangibly positive to announce. Progress updates, even when positive, just don't feel like they're tangible enough when we know it's just going to get the toxic people talking again. It just isn't worth it unless the rest of the community that we do appreciate actually gets something tangible out of it.

Community manager is one of my roles on the team and I am more than happy to take on more of it. Previously, my contributions to that role has mostly been behind the scenes. Satanya really enjoys the idea of interacting with the community. Sharing small bits of information, teasing people with graphics and making update posts are all really fun things to do. But those experiences have been ruined for her by the need for some people to always be negative in unconstructive ways. Feedback has always been appreciated but the vast majority of 'criticism' has been malicious. So you can understand why she would want to step away from that. My only issue is that my job does keep me very busy. Could I spend more of my free time interacting with and planning things for the EE community? Yes. I definitely could. But, while the toxicity has never affected my mental health or made me lose faith in the project, I would be lying if I said that I had much enthusiasm or felt like I had much incentive to invest my time into doing that. Part of what keeps me mentally healthy is that I avoid engaging in meaningless negativity and part of me feels that I'd be forced to engage with it if I become more active again.

And then further to that, as I've mentioned earlier, I know that if I was more active then the toxicity won't exclusively be about me: today I have seen people trash-talking a member of the EE! team who isn't even involved in this thread, just because they were talking about this topic and felt like mocking someone I guess? I fully expected that to happen the moment I made my first post here. The only thing that surprises me is that it wasn't directed at Satanya for once. But idk if that makes it better or worse. I'm just grateful that that member of staff is unlikely to ever see those comments. The more active the EE! team is, the more we remind those sorts of people that EE! exists and therefore the more often they make those sorts of comments. I don't even think they're trying to be toxic. People have frustrations and that's their way of venting that. But my message to those people is that the EE! team sees more than you realise. I see almost everything and ignore it; I very rarely pass it on. But you are making those comments in public spaces. When you're talking about people, it often makes its way back to them eventually. Even if it's weeks later. It can often be worse when it's weeks later, because if there was plenty more people being positive, then by that time the positivity has died down and all that person is left with is the nasty thing you've said about them. So if you are the kind of person who feels the need to say nasty things to make yourself feel better, then all I ask is that you do it in your own private places, such as DMs with your friends. And please stop making it personal. Comments expressing disappointment that you don't believe the game will ever be released are fine. But when you start personally attacking and mocking individuals as a way of coping with that belief, that's when it becomes toxic - and that isn't healthy for you either.

All that being said, as we head into the Christmas Holidays I will have considerably more free time until the new year. So I would be interested to know, besides updates about the game, what would you want to see from us/me that you think will help keep you engaged whilst we wait? Because I am very much open to ideas. And if it does feel like people are genuinely interested in content that isn't just news, then that would certainly motivate me to get more involved. If you use Twitter, then the official Everybody Edits page should be a nice source of smiles and nose exhales from time to time: https://twitter.com/EverybodyEdits, but besides that and the people who are active in the discord server, there isn't really much going on right now.

When Satanya became director of the game and asked me to be both the head moderator and a community manager for EE! I was effectively given 2 questions:

1: How will we keep the community engaged while they wait for the game's release?
2: How can we reduce toxicity within the community?

Our answer to the 2nd question was to ensure that the discord server was strictly moderated and to have these same stricter values when designing the EE! moderation system. I was never actively involved with the discord server, but I believe that the staff there have done a very good job of keeping toxicity out, with a few hiccups along the way. Even if a significant number of the old community look down on that server as somewhere too cringey and full of noobs to be taken seriously. Meanwhile, the concept and documentation for the EE! moderation system has been finished (pending tweaks) for a while now and I think it will do a good job of being harsh on those who intentionally cause trouble while offering chances for those who are less malicious but still rulebreaking to make positive changes. 

For the first question, we had many discussions in the GGRiD discord server where various members of the team suggested different ideas. Our initial approach was to try and have some kind of community engagement every single month. Whether that be a simple update post or something the community could actually contribute towards. We had staff updates, opportunities to provide feedback, staff interviews and the logo competition. We had lots more planned too - more competitions were discussed, staff interviews were initially going to be a regular segment, we wanted to share in-progress graphics in a more structured and frequent way. I've personally been sitting on a document containing applications to help beta read the moderation document for half a year.

That approach was exhausting because the creativity and time necessary to keep that up regularly was not doable at such an early stage in the project. But more importantly, it seemed that everything we did was just a beacon for toxicity. Whilst there was plenty of positivity that was appreciated, the amount of unconstructive negativity was not insignificant. And over the months that took its toll. It affected the mental health of many staff behind the scenes, in a few cases to a significant extent. And it didn't seem to matter if we could keep toxicity out of certain places because those sorts of people would always find a place to laugh about it together. Some of the things I've read that people have said have been absolutely vile. Those kinds of comments always found their way back to the team in one way or another. I'm generally of the mind that we should focus on the positives and ignore the negatives when they're not contributing anything useful - but that's easy for me to say when I'm not the one whose work is being hyperbolically scrutinised or am not the one being personally attacked.

Another idea to combat toxicity that was suggested in those initial discussions was to just starve the toxicity with a lack of anything to be toxic about. We didn't want to do this because that would involve sharing less and less which of course would also starve the people we would like to keep around of anything to get excited about. The counterargument to that was that we didn't need to retain the current community because we could just grow a new one once the game is released. Tbh, it was probably me who originally said that but I don't fully remember. But ultimately, we all knew that wasn't the way to go because, naturally, we'd want all our friends from EE to stay with us on our journey. However, it seemed that the less we shared with the community the happier we were. I remember dreading every time we were about to share something because I knew that it meant I'd need to spend a few hours each day following it trying to reassure the mental health of staff members and the concerns of the community - and at times it could be difficult to tell the difference between genuine community concerns and people just trying to be toxic. If I had to do that as consistently as was originally planned then I'd have quit this project long ago. And I know that Satanya feels the same way.

Overall, it became clearer and clearer to us that just not posting updates was healthier for us. We have now fully committed to the strategy of not even trying to retain the current community and to instead just grow a new one when EE! is released. It has even reached the point where I have been encouraging Satanya to take a break from the community and not share any news about the game for a while. I am currently of the belief that we shouldn't post any news at all until the game is ready for marketing. Whether Satanya does decide to share anything though is down to her; she likes to share details, show off graphics and tease plans for the future. It just becomes draining when people latch onto tiny details and criticise everything about it without offering anything constructive. The community just isn't big enough to drown out the people like that or balance it out with positivity. If everyone was as genuinely enthusiastic as N1KF is about the small stuff then we wouldn't have this problem. But it seems that for too many people, if the news isn't something big then they'll have something negative to say about it. And seeing that over and over again just isn't healthy.

I feel your pain. I want people to stick around too. We have already lost so many good people already who haven't stuck around through EE's turbulent times. To lose any more would be a huge shame. I've heard lots of stories of fun people I never got to meet because I didn't become socially active in EE until its later years. But ultimately, we have reached a point where it's no longer healthy for us to try and put the time, creativity and emotions into trying to keep those people. We've come to the conclusion that it's not our responsibility to try to keep those people - despite how much it feels like it should be and how much we'd ideally want it to be. And just coming to that conclusion gives me the clarity that trying to do things because we miss our old friends and wish they'd come back doesn't sound too healthy either. Right now, the harsh truth is that we do just want people to forget about EE! for a while. And if you don't want to do that, then all we ask is that you be patient, don't be toxic, and accept that we aren't trying to keep you entertained so you shouldn't expect that from us anymore.

But when EE! is eventually released, our hope is that people remember again and our old friends do come back - even if it takes them a few years. But if not, then EE! will be the perfect place for making new friends and new memories. Of course, it will be sad that not all of our old friends would join us. But I still like to think that everyone who has ever enjoyed EE is out there somewhere making new friends of their own.

I'm mostly playing real life.

But when I'm not playing real life, I'm probably programming/testing characters for a Minecraft mod.

That’s what made it worse! I couldn’t even wholeheartedly make the argument that you were scum wanting to get rid of me as soon as possible because it was sooo obvious that you were new to the game. Literally the only thing that nearly kept me alive was the flagbearer and sentinel claims because there was literally no logical argument we could make against it 😢

Also, if I were to host a game there’d definitely be very little if any flavour. Not that I could live up to Mini’s efforts anyway

Reservation is fully expected. We are actively aware of the reputation that was gained for EE development and we have worked very hard to both show we are not like that and also actually not make the same mistakes. As others have pointed out, our lack of announcements of plans and not showing things off just to build false hype is part of that process.

But the way that people express themselves is what treads the line between toxic and respectful. The way that Norwee has expressed their reservations in this thread is 100% respectful. On the other hand, by Zumza's own admission they've not actually asked any serious questions. So if they are not trying to genuinely understand the situation, it makes me wonder what their motivation is. Because right now it feels to me like it's just to throw sass, spread negativity, and make accusations based on assumptions. I don't think that Zumza has been actively toxic yet, but I'd not describe their conduct as respectful. That's why I have felt the need to address their comments because behaving disrespectfully can easily lead to toxicity.

In a similar way, there has been a contrast in the way that people have given feedback on some of the graphics we shared last year. Sometimes people would express a dislike for something and suggest improvements and we have made some changes to the things we've shown off based on those comments. But on the other hand, there were some users who were negative about absolutely everything we'd show. Without fail, every time, they would have something negative to say. I've even seen them completely ridiculing some of the stuff we'd shown in other EE discord servers. They'd never have something productive to say, just that what we had made was bad and sometimes those comments would even cross the line to make comments about the artist who had made them. The latter approach was completely toxic. Those sorts of players are largely no longer active in the community, either because they got bored and moved on, gotten banned for something they did later, or because they've stopped being toxic.

The exclamation mark right now is simply an easy way of signalling which version of the game people are talking about. When EE! becomes the dominant form of EE, the exclamation mark will likely no longer be necessary. The exclamation mark has actually always featured in EE's globe logo.

Our efforts to reduce toxicity in the community is exactly why Kiraninja's topic is so nice to see. As they have mentioned, Kiraninja had a reputation for being incredibly negative about previous versions of the game. Lots of people had their reservations but Kiraninja was one of the first to express them and they'd express them very vocally. The previous administration definitely generated toxicity - after all, if the person in charge is not respectful to others then why should there be any expectation that the community itself should be respectful? The endless drama either exhausted you to the point of leaving or you'd stick around long enough to join in with the toxicity. So this thread is really nice to see as reassurance that we are successfully repairing the damage done to the community and creating a more positive culture, as well as being able to see that community members can recover from that state of exhaustion/toxicity.

I assure you that it is not directed at you specifically. There has been a lot of toxicity in the EE! discord over the past 2 years, which is what Satanya is alluding to. I'd like to think we've done a very good job of eliminating that toxicity because the discord server has since become a nicer place due to people either leaving, getting themselves banned, or changing their ways. But the way those toxic people would speak is very similar to the way you have expressed yourself in this thread - automatically assuming the worst and throwing around accusations based on those assumptions. Given the past administration, it is understandable that people will assume the worst. But that does not give them a free pass on being a jerk. If your questions are not genuine, and you have no real desire to understand the situation, then I do worry that you are headed down that path of being toxic.

Just because the monetisation is a low priority does not mean we don't have a plan for it. We also have very clear plans for both the development of the game and building a player base.

We do not like to share our plans often because they are very subjective to change and conditional on things going perfectly. All we'd be achieving otherwise is spreading misinformation about the final product because there is no way that everyone would be able to keep up with every bit of news.

Retaining the player base across the development time would have been a monumental task that would never have been successful. We'll hype people up when the game is near release and no sooner. For now, all we ask from the community is to be patient and respectful. Keeping people engaged with the community is not something we consider necessary at this time because we have full faith in the final product to speak for itself and draw players back in once it's ready. In the meantime, sticking around in the community is everyone's personal choice. But if the people that choose to stick around cannot be patient and respectful, then to be blunt, we don't want them sticking around.

In terms of development news, we are not simply waiting for the war to end to continue development. Progress is currently still being made but definitely at a slower rate than before the war started. Besides addressing hugely significant things such as the war, which not only severely limited development for a while but has also had a significantly irreversible emotional impact on much of our team, we do not plan to make posts every time development changes speed.

I've never said that you picked me because you either thought/or knew I was a flagbearer. This is 100% a coincidence that's turned out in your favour.

Your constant vote switching isn't what I find sus about you, it's the fact that you don't seem to care about the possibility that this could end the game for you. Not once have you ever mentioned any fear over that possibility to the point where it kinda feels like that doesn't matter to you.

I'm gonna repeat myself here but this is yet another reminder that this entire situation is immediately resolved as soon as any of myself, era, onjit or althea dies. Anyone who thinks that a flagbearer claim is worth risking is inherently anti-town.

You're right, in the hypothetical where I am a mafia flagbearer, I'd 100% not put myself in the voting pool tomorrow. But that literally changes nothing. You'd just lynch me day 4 instead and althea day 5 - if someone hasn't night killed us already.

This whole idea of "we need to do this lynch now or by the time we lynch him it will be too late" is completely ludicrous.