Newbie discrimination

N1KF · 2015-04-20 05:18:07

I was reading this topic, which is about increasing the popularity of Everybody Edits. This would include players of both "noob" and "pro." Noobs (which I hope is not a too offensive term), despite being the majority, are shunned off by more experienced players, who believe they know better (while they are probably right, are not completely right in their understanding through social and moral means). This is one of the two main reasons (the other being for pure Schadenfreude) for trolling (the assumption that this definition of "troll" based on the in-game act of vandalising a level), which is likely not helpful due to the immediate assumption that noobs know why they are trolled. Again, this is ignoring the understanding of a noob, and assuming everybody has played and knows everything about the community. As I have stated before, trolling a noob is like slapping a baby for drooling—it just does not work.

More experienced players seem ignorant of noobs—they are often left ignored, and when noticed and interacted with, they are treated as talentless with little-to-no meaning to the community. Their levels are usually treated as cluttering up the lobby and blocking the way for the red carpet of the better levels. When I get to a level that would be commonly imagined by more experienced players as "nooby", I mostly see a lack of pros staying in the level to give advice (and most that do come leave after a few short minutes if not seconds).

To become united would be a great accomplishment. I see big separation, as crews tend to either be filled with noobs or pros, with a lack of mix. Noobs tend to lack understanding of how the community works around them. If you see a noob, I would appreciate you to treat them like real life kid that has much to learn. Give them good advice, and hope they improve. You might even want to try helping them, or joining some of their crews.

I feel as if I am an awkward area between "noob" and "pro"—pro enough to understand how the community works and interacts, while nooby enough to not release levels because of fear of bad reactions (probably just an overreaction from two of my previous unwell-received levels). While I am probably an old enough player to be treated with at least a bit more respect (as from what I have seen how people act to me), I would like to see better from this community.

Spaceprobe, cools, Blindz0r, Nickolai, ILoveBaconYUM, rgl32, Dazz, Pyromaniac

Fradeshan · 2015-04-20 05:38:09

it's not just discrimination as the noobs thinking they are just as good as everyone else, and not trying to improve or even ask for advice

N1KF wrote:

nooby enough to not release levels because of fear of bad reactions

is also an issue with many

N1KF

N1KF · 2015-04-20 05:47:32

Fradeshan wrote:

it's not just discrimination as the noobs thinking they are just as good as everyone else

While it may just be because I ironically do not interact with (other) noobs much (mainly because they know about me less and I do not ask them often to be on my friend list), citation is needed. This is more of what you call a "scrub", and I have not really seen many noobs go around exclaiming they are a better artist than BEE or a better minigame maker than KingOfTheOzone.

and not trying to improve or even ask for advice

I have not seen this issue much (perhaps in a level or two with owners not even appreciating criticism. Noobs tend to be less concerned about making their levels "pro" than to just make what they believe is a fun level. Hopefully they will respond well to critisism or help.

BEE · 2015-04-20 05:52:09

I am wondering where you are getting your opinions from.

They are often left ignored, and when noticed and interacted with, they are treated as talentless with little-to-no meaning to the community. Their levels are usually treated as cluttering up the lobby and blocking the way for the red carpet of the better levels.

What "pros" don't say hello when greeted or talk to them when they are talking to a pro? And I've never heard of anyone talking about levels cluttering up the lobby. While I am not what I would consider a pro, I have never heard bad things about the newer players new players are vital to EE! Honestly, I think that EE needs to make more things available to the newer players to help entice them to stay. Personally, I love going into the hotel levels and chatting with the people in there.

I guess my question is. who specifically is discriminating? Because from the pros I know, none are, and then it becomes stereotyping of the supposed pros

N1KF

Fradeshan · 2015-04-20 05:58:28

N1KF wrote:

This is more of what you call a "scrub"

...

N1KF wrote:

This is more of what you call a "scrub", and I have not really seen many noobs go around exclaiming they are a better artist than BEE or a better minigame maker than KingOfTheOzone.

i've seen many believe that they have "contributed tons" to ee and that they will become guards/mods

N1KF wrote:

I have not seen this issue much (perhaps in a level or two with owners not even appreciating criticism. Noobs tend to be less concerned about making their levels "pro" than to just make what they believe is a fun level. Hopefully they will respond well to critisism or help.

they must be actively seeking criticism, not just responding to it, if they truly want to improve

N1KF

Vilius · 2015-04-20 06:40:16

EE is never going to get more users. The community is too mean.

N1KF

N1KF · 2015-04-20 07:02:03

BEE wrote:

I am wondering where you are getting your opinions from.
They are often left ignored, and when noticed and interacted with, they are treated as talentless with little-to-no meaning to the community. Their levels are usually treated as cluttering up the lobby and blocking the way for the red carpet of the better levels.
What "pros" don't say hello when greeted or talk to them when they are talking to a pro? And I've never heard of anyone talking about levels cluttering up the lobby.

Search for some topics about guestbombing, because I have seen several posts stating that more professional levels should get more attention than nooby levels. While I agree that worlds with effort taken into them generally deserve attention and respect, proper treatment could be given to the noobs, too.

While I am not what I would consider a pro, I have never heard bad things about the newer players new players are vital to EE!

Perhaps some of the things in the original post were exaggerated, I still stand by my point. While there is no actual war (or even aggressive conflict), the existence of trolling noob levels to discourage them from making any more levels (or just to improve, though this seems ineffective, as most noobs would believe the troll's reasoning to be Schadenfreude). I believe the line between a noob and pro starts to blur once a noob starts to realize want the community wants and how to improve.

Honestly, I think that EE needs to make more things available to the newer players to help entice them to stay.

I very much agree with this. The game and its community is not that noob-friendly, and a new player might be confused as to quite a few things in the game. The game itself is underground (which I explained on the topic about Everybody Edits having a Wikipedia page)

Personally, I love going into the hotel levels and chatting with the people in there.

I am glad you do so. While you may not consider yourself a pro, I would certainly consider you one, as you have been playing for a while and are regarded as one of the most famous and talented artists. You do not really symbolize the entire pro side, though it would be nice if you did—you seem to be rather relaxed about the noobs. I am certainly not trying to get the point across that the pro side is the "bad" side here, nor that there is anybody to blame, perhaps besides the entire community itself.

I guess my question is. who specifically is discriminating? Because from the pros I know, none are, and then it becomes stereotyping of the supposed pros

I am not discriminating against pros (or at least am not attempting to). I am for more balance between the two sides, and having them separated by a tall brick wall is something I wish to prevent. Both sides (the "pro" side, which tends to ignore the "noob" side, and the "noob" side, which needs to learn) have their own problems, and these problems being spread awareness of would help a bit.

Fradeshan wrote:

i've seen many believe that they have "contributed tons" to ee and that they will become guards/mods

I personally have not, much. Noobs, however, can usually see the quality difference in an EX Crew map and a stair level—just not usually the specific things that make it better in quality. I am not trying to put all the blame on pros, but rather, to come up with ideas how the community can unite. I thought something appropriate to talk about. I believe that noobs are also not doing too well on their side—they need to realize their potential about what they can do to the game. If 90% of noobs turned "pro," the lobby would be more filled with great worlds, and players would be more active due to this.

they must be actively seeking criticism, not just responding to it, if they truly want to improve

You bring up a very good point, and got me thinking a bit. But, you should also consider real world education. Why do you think schools exist? People are taught things from a variety of subjects, to give an open choice about what to do in the future. Giving criticism to them is not bad (unless they are ignoring it or reacting aggressively, which is not the case in your statement), so go give it to them—they might remember what you say when making a level even if they are not "actively seeking" such advice. If the noob wants to improve even better, then great, you just inspired that level to become a better level maker.

Vilius wrote:

EE is never going to get more users. The community is too mean.

Call me an optimistic little kid, but I think this is a bad representation of what you believe we all are together. The fact that you say the game will never gain more users proves this even further—the game could get more players not only because of a united community, but for many other reasons, such as a big update, or it getting popular (regardless if the community's interaction itself stays the same). You saying its is mean may look like it for a while, but I have seen plenty of nice users and those making an attempt to improve the game's state. If you want to clarify, I would be glad, as your post seems mostly to be a pessimistic viewpoint of a community filled with those both nice and mean.

-

I do not really have time to reread it again and rethink things, so my post not make complete sense. Just respond to this post for now and I will talk more next time I can visit.

2015-04-20 07:16:07

Noobs are usually players who are new to the game.

You might even want to try helping them

This depends upon the type of noob we are dealing with.

Some noobs are always below 5 years of age. They do not know how to do anything in the game. They don't move or chat. We cannot do anything about those players.

Another type of noobs know how to move, how to chat and read chat from the chat history, but they are below ten years of age. They always think that they are the most supreme people on the planet and all the others are low level. These noobs always change smileys and will leave after one week or so of gameplay. Again, we can't do anything about these type of noobs.

Another type of noobs know most of the things and are above 10 years of age but they are thought to be low level by the experienced players because they have very less blocks. We can do something about these people because they will be mature and can understand and will listen to players who wish them well.

or joining some of their crews

No self-respecting player will do that. Never.

More experienced players seem ignorant of noobs

Experienced players like myself know that feeding information to a noob is useless. A noob never wants to learn things and be bossed around.

If you see a noob, I would appreciate you to treat them like real life kid that has much to learn

"Real life kids who have much to learn" never want to learn. When you were a kid, you never wanted to be taught anything. These "real life kids who have much to learn" also are like you when you were young. As I told earlier, from a kid who is a noob on Everybody Edits' point of view, usually the kid is the king and all the others are servants.

Noobs tend to lack understanding of how the community works around them.

Yes. This is the problem. The noobs think the community as filled with people of the same age. This causes various problems. If a person your same age "advises" you... Yeah, that is how a noob feels. Noobs have no intention to accept the advice given to them. The advice just goes in through one ear and out through the other.

What can we do about this?

The best thing we can do is not do anything about it. We should leave them to figure out how to do things alone. Experimenting many times with the blocks and levels will lead them to think that Everybody Edits is their own, and thus, will start communicating with the players and understand everything on EE.

It is a slow process. We can improve this process by not locking up the noobs when they enter your level. You should allow them to experiment with their own blocks. The "pros" who are there currently know how to play because there was no free chat on Everybody Edits at that time. No chat = no discrimination between noobs. Also, if the mods are reading this, here's a request: Please do not remove the chat again. Please.

Explanation of No chat = no discrimination

There are many things which require chat. Some of them are:
1. Hanging out
2. Knowing each other well
3. Learning

When you are hanging out, you will certainly want to talk to others. Talking to others allows you to understand the other person's personality. After that, you will slowly adapt to his or her personality. This change will happen a lot and this will finally lead to a discrimination between personalities. You will learn about the discrimination by others telling you. This is probably what lead to the discrimination between the "noob" personality and the "pro" personality.

Also, sorry for looong posts.

N1KF

tentacleTherapist · 2015-04-20 08:56:53

I don't know what people are considering to be "pros" but from what I have noticed the "pros" themselves don't do a lot of discriminating themselves. What I have found from observation is that a lot of the hate comes from people with middling popularity in the community trying to gain popularity with the "pros" by trying to distinguish themselves from the "noobs" thinking the "pros" are like that and will accept them if they act like that. I hate using those two words so I am going to continue putting them in quotations.

Nou, ILoveBaconYUM, rgl32, skullz17, Miasmic, N1KF

Vilius · 2015-04-20 09:00:30

The community is really mean. This is like the 5th time I'm getting banned from a world for "having a stupid username".

N1KF

2015-04-20 10:19:46

Vilius wrote:

The community is really mean. This is like the 5th time I'm getting banned from a world for "having a stupid username".

How is SNIVYHEART a "Stupid name"? You were a really big shot on Wind's rpg!

N1KF

BEE · 2015-04-20 12:16:49

N1KF wrote:

BEE wrote:
I am wondering where you are getting your opinions from.
They are often left ignored, and when noticed and interacted with, they are treated as talentless with little-to-no meaning to the community. Their levels are usually treated as cluttering up the lobby and blocking the way for the red carpet of the better levels.
What "pros" don't say hello when greeted or talk to them when they are talking to a pro? And I've never heard of anyone talking about levels cluttering up the lobby.
Search for some topics about guestbombing, because I have seen several posts stating that more professional levels should get more attention than nooby levels. While I agree that worlds with effort taken into them generally deserve attention and respect, proper treatment could be given to the noobs, too.

Well, I just reread the entirety of the thread about userbombing: http://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewto … =27062&p=3 and it seems as though the people I would consider "pros" were defending the "noobs" more than the other way around.

I guess my question is: Who do you consider Pro? Because I am inclined to believe this is more likely the truth:

tentacleTherapist wrote:

What I have found from observation is that a lot of the hate comes from people with middling popularity in the community trying to gain popularity with the "pros" by trying to distinguish themselves from the "noobs" thinking the "pros" are like that and will accept them if they act like that.

N1KF

Nou · 2015-04-20 12:33:29

tentacleTherapist wrote:

I don't know what people are considering to be "pros" but from what I have noticed the "pros" themselves don't do a lot of discriminating themselves. What I have found from observation is that a lot of the hate comes from people with middling popularity in the community trying to gain popularity with the "pros" by trying to distinguish themselves from the "noobs" thinking the "pros" are like that and will accept them if they act like that. I hate using those two words so I am going to continue putting them in quotations.

This sums it up perfectly. I was thinking about how to phrase this, because I never understood where the distinction between "pro" and "noob" came from. I've never seen a actual experienced/"popular" player call himself "pro" either.

I guess it's not very far off from the social mechanics of real life bullying; people have the need to put down their peers in order to make themselves look better. These mechanics are likely to occur among children (aka most of EE's population), combining this with anonimity this can result in friction between new players and the "middling popularity" in EE.

A good way of denoobifying © new players could be to make sure they become active part of the community right away; direct them to the forums, get their names out, and have them read some basic guides on level creation.

Spaceprobe, N1KF

Pyromaniac · 2015-04-20 12:38:17

Oh boy. I completely agree with you N1KF.

I think Saintcool is right. But I also think that we should stop putting certain people on a pedestal. Historically, that never ends well. If there wasn't such a clearly defined social hierarchy, the middling class wouldn't feel the need to fight their way to the top.

I softly disagree with Bee that the pros are kind to the noobs. Sometimes they are, dont get me wrong. But dont mistake a condescending or pretentious attitude for kindness. I think thats the problem. You can talk down to someone and not be technically rude, but anyone with an ounce of intelligence will find this irritating. I speak from experience. Its infuriating.

Now before anyone answers me with #NOTALLPROS, let me just say that I'm not saying that everyone on this game is a terrible person, or that I am a holy warrior for justice. I just think that it is important to realize some flaws, so the movers and shakers of this game can make a difference.

Nou, ILoveBaconYUM, rgl32, Dazz, N1KF

Dazz · 2015-04-20 12:56:43

I was thinking...if I were to make a list with all the arrogant users with their nose high up in the air I had the ''chance'' to meet on EE during these five years, I could start WW3.

N1KF

Hexagon · 2015-04-20 12:57:36

I think it's important to make a distinction between noobs and newbie's. Noobs are new users who do not have the desire or willingness to learn, while newbie's are also new players, yet have a desire to get better and to learn the game. You can't teach noobs, but you can teach newbie's.

N1KF, ILoveBaconYUM

Aoitenshi · 2015-04-20 13:10:44

I tried to be nice to everyone and especially to noobs, one noob turned into a stuckup **** thinking he's better than everyone else just because I praised him.

Never tried to be kind anymore since then.

ILoveBaconYUM, N1KF

Yandax · 2015-04-20 15:42:47

This is impossible!!Someone with good opinions on th'forums!!I can't believe it!!And I totally agree with you.Edit:I try to be nice with noobs,They're usually very friendly if you offer advice and treat them as equals,not as inferiors.Edit2 I also makes me happy when a newbie asks for advice or listens to it.I also like it when they take constructive criticism.

N1KF

N1KF · 2015-04-20 18:03:12

tentacleTherapist wrote:

I don't know what people are considering to be "pros" but from what I have noticed the "pros" themselves don't do a lot of discriminating themselves. What I have found from observation is that a lot of the hate comes from people with middling popularity in the community trying to gain popularity with the "pros" by trying to distinguish themselves from the "noobs" thinking the "pros" are like that and will accept them if they act like that.

Good point. I consider myself in the "middle ground" (as stated in my original post), yet climbing up a pedestal by pushing others into a pit is something I want to avoid.

I hate using those two words so I am going to continue putting them in quotations.

Me too, which is why I often put them in scare quotes. These words, when applied to a person, can quite easily be used to judge their rank or specify their significance in the community.

Vilius wrote:

The community is really mean. This is like the 5th time I'm getting banned from a world for "having a stupid username".

My username is NUMBERKIRBYFAN1O, and I agree that mine sounds more "stupid" than SNIVYHEART.

BEE wrote:

I guess my question is: Who do you consider Pro? Because I am inclined to believe [this] is more likely the truth[.]

By "pro," I am trying to sum up the community's opinion on what a "pro" is (which is why I use scare quotes around it). They are typically players who have had experience, know about the community, and know how to make good levels. Nou makes a good point about this that these two categories are confusing—I may have elements of all three things, but I have yet to consider myself a "pro" that everybody will remember me as.

Nou wrote:

A good way of denoobifying © new players could be to make sure they become active part of the community right away; direct them to the forums, get their names out, and have them read some basic guides on level creation.

I was considering making some sort of crew that would encourage players of all experience levels to join, while avoiding putting the pros on a pedestal and the noobs in a pit. It could be called the United Community (U.C.), or something like that.

Aoitenshi wrote:

I tried to be nice to everyone and especially to noobs, one noob turned into a stuckup [donkey]hole thinking he's better than everyone else just because I praised him.
Never tried to be kind anymore since then.

I think that is a pretty bad way of stereotyping an entire side of the community. Refusing to attempt to at least be nice simply because one acted like a donkeyhole is regarding the entire group of "noobs" as being like that one person.

Pyromaniac · 2015-04-20 18:44:03

Aoi wrote:

I tried to be nice to everyone and especially to noobs, one noob turned into a stuckup [donkey]hole thinking he's better than everyone else just because I praised him.
Never tried to be kind anymore since then.
N1KF wrote:
I think that is a pretty bad way of stereotyping an entire side of the community. Refusing to attempt to at least be nice simply because one acted like a donkeyhole is regarding the entire group of "noobs" as being like that one person.

Yeah, hate to say it, but thats a pretty poor attitude. You can't let one bad experience turn you off from being a decent person....

Sondheim said it best guys..."Be careful what you say, children will listen." If you set the bar of acting high and mighty, the 'middle class' will follow suit.

*This just goes to show you that anything can turn into an into the woods reference if you try hard enough*

N1KF

Norwee · 2015-04-20 21:16:17

The most nooby topic ever, just proves how noobiness has no limits.
This is what happens when the EE peasants try to act all high and mighty. Shove them back into the mud!
EE pros FTW!!!

N1KF

FDOOU · 2015-04-20 21:18:12

N1KF, you are a noob, and here's why:

Noobs care, pros don't.

N1KF

2015-04-20 22:28:40

It's a flash game, take it easy!

N1KF

N1KF · 2015-04-20 22:33:29

0176 wrote:

It's a flash game, take it easy!

I am debating the problems and issues with the community. If I want to get more knowledge about the community, I will need to discuss this with plenty of people. I am not trying to attack anybody, but rather point out some of my observations and see how other people feel.

BEE · 2015-04-20 23:04:21

Pyromaniac wrote:

I softly disagree with Bee that the pros are kind to the noobs. Sometimes they are, dont get me wrong. But dont mistake a condescending or pretentious attitude for kindness. I think thats the problem. You can talk down to someone and not be technically rude, but anyone with an ounce of intelligence will find this irritating. I speak from experience. Its infuriating.

Yes true, but those type of people are in all groups, "pro", "mid", and "noob". I've been talked down to by a "noob" before, as well as a "mid" and a "pro".

What you should be saying is "People should be nice to other people" not "pros should be nice to noobs".

Besides, you're all 'nub's in my mind <3

N1KF, Different55

Official Everybody Edits Forums

#1 2015-04-20 05:18:07