TI:None. HF's campaign against trolls.

ECC · Before February 2015

Drama is fun, specially when you don't care for anything other then watching it. Its like NASCAR: your waiting for someone to crash and burn.

on trolling: Its fun in moderation. Don't live for it, but don't just full stop say its bad. When I first joined the forums, I was a moron, didn't see anything in it. But now after some time, I see the whole reasoning and agree with it: if you want a change, don't sit back, Get off your rear and take the wheel, helm, whatever you want to call it and do it yourself. This thread as a whole is the old misunderstanding with one side seeing nothing but evil(How most people think of Hitler for example), another being the middleman(well, woman if I am correct about who failgirl is) seeing it as good-bad(Hitler was a normal man who just had a bad idea and power to make it happen. Did you know he was a talented artist?). The third side in this is the ones who see nothing but the good(Scientifically speaking, Genocide is the best/most effective way to remove a 'bad gene'.)

plus, destruction is fun. ASPLOSIONEDSZ!

As a note: No I don't like Hitler, I just like using him as a reference point because its something most of us can connect to.

Calicara · Before February 2015

I just don't understand how you can determine ones morality based off your actions in a childrens game. Personally, I just get really frustrated a lot because the EE that was once filled with wonderful levels is now full the brim with easy pre-made junk, and coin collecting levels.

And I mean yea, there are occasionally 1 or 2 good levels, but compared to the bad levels they are a rarity. I suppose such is with life though eh? More people follow the crowd, but there are always a few who find their own way.

Last edited by Calicara (May 11 2013 8:33:45 am)

GKAbyss · Before February 2015

It does not matter if someone has fun trolling, or of they do it for good. The main point is that it hurts people directly.

Last edited by GKAbyss (May 11 2013 9:24:11 am)

Master1 · Before February 2015

GKAbyss wrote:

It does not matter if someone has fun trolling, or of they do it for good. The main point is that it hurts people directly.

I've trolled a lot of levels in the past, but I still have to agree with this. This is exactly why I no longer do it.

theHFnetwork · Before February 2015

Master1 wrote:

GKAbyss wrote:
It does not matter if someone has fun trolling, or of they do it for good. The main point is that it hurts people directly.
I've trolled a lot of levels in the past, but I still have to agree with this. This is exactly why I no longer do it.

That's the spirit!

Pyromaniac · Before February 2015

I don't know I'd you've heard, but there's this amazing new command called /removeedit, /kick, and /load level.

Woah

Mind blown
But honestly if you're getting hurt because someone trolls your level in a children's game....dear lord have mercy on your soul

And if you are stupid enough to give the code to the trolls in the first place, you deserve to be trilled. Whenever I give edit to ANYONE, I always save first just in case,

Last edited by Pyromaniac (May 11 2013 12:28:23 pm)

capasha · Before February 2015

Please close this thread.

GKAbyss · Before February 2015

Pyromaniac wrote:

I don't know I'd you've heard, but there's this amazing new command called /removeedit, /kick, and /load level.
Woah
Mind blown
But honestly if you're getting hurt because someone trolls your level in a children's game....dear lord have mercy on your soul
And if you are stupid enough to give the code to the trolls in the first place, you deserve to be trilled. Whenever I give edit to ANYONE, I always save first just in case,

I think that the victims should not be punished or forced to take extra measures when they do nothing wrong.
The people who should be punished are the trolls.

Panic · Before February 2015

GKAbyss wrote:

Pyromaniac wrote:
I don't know I'd you've heard, but there's this amazing new command called /removeedit, /kick, and /load level.
Woah
Mind blown
But honestly if you're getting hurt because someone trolls your level in a children's game....dear lord have mercy on your soul
And if you are stupid enough to give the code to the trolls in the first place, you deserve to be trilled. Whenever I give edit to ANYONE, I always save first just in case,
I think that the victims should not be punished or forced to take extra measures when they do nothing wrong.
The people who should be punished are the trolls.

By giving edit rights to other people, map owners are empowering others to do whatever they want. There is nothing legally or physically binding that prevents trolls from "trolling". Trolling is simply a form of productively building. People "playing" might not think so, however. The difference is that the troll has obtained edit rights (Through whatever means) and can do whatever, where the random player can not. As stated MANY times, "trolling" edits can very easily be reversed by various commands from YEARS ago.
If you're so intent on having "trolls" punished, how exactly would you want them to be punished?

Also, yeah, just lock this thread now. I think I got dumber just posting here...

tak4n · Before February 2015

It's getting annoying to see how many +reps HF is getting. I understand if you +rep him once as your opinion, but constantly +repping day after day is just unfair for the people who have their opinions against what he said.

No one proved anything. The people on this thread are too stubborn to see any other reason but their own. I looked at all the reasons. I understand HF's ideas and everyone else's ideas. As I said previously this is the only reason I haven't -repped him yet. However to the people that simply say trolling should be banned or trolls should get punished, it annoys me that they literally don't understand the trolls. It seems that most of the people troll for fun. I troll from frustration with the level so that I would take out all that frustration out on the level to show them how much I suffered when playing the level. However all the opinions have a reasoning behind them which others refuse to see.

What I am probably going to do is -rep or +rep HF depending on the amount of DIFFERENT people that -repped or +repped him to try to give him his actual rep, the one that he deserves, not the spam or double ones.

GKAbyss · Before February 2015

Much of the people who -repped -repped him multiple times, and some were even spam -rep

I consider it bullying, especially when he gets -repped 20 time for a single thing

I disagree with many people, especially everyone -repping him, but I don't go and -rep every single one of them.

I think that if you =>disagree with someone's opinion<= you should check to see if they got -repped for it before you -rep them. I see that many -reps as overly harsh. It also does not help your cause at all, many of the reps were insults, which does not do anything to solve problems.

@ panic
people are allowed/given guns, that does not mean they can do anything they want with those guns
laws were made to keep people from hurting others, which trolling does.
The fact that there are no rules to keep people from doing something to hurt others means that there should be rules made to do so.

I would like to point out that trolling is not just the physical damage(the physical damage is of course important to, It wastes the time of everyone in that level, makes people leave the level, etc. If the owner is not at the level it will completely ruin all work of getting people to play it) but the psychological damage. If someone's life only revolves around trying to fit in with this game community, and people come to their level everyday to attack or make fun of and generally try to ruin it or call that person a noob, it has a very bad impact on self esteem.
I think there should be a report system implemented where you can make a camera follow a player, film them, and send it in as a report, so that you can prove they are trolling. Punishment should also require several different reports. Initial punishment should be temporary bans or a restriction of the speed they may draw in others' levels. Maybe they can be restricted to open world speed drawing. But it is also important to reward those who do not troll, by possibly giving them additional energy(not max energy)
@tak4n
the fact that trolls have fun has absolutely no influence on whether or not to allow it, it still hurts people.

Some people like to take illegal drugs, or maybe drinking alcohol underage could be considered fun, but that does not mean everyone is allowed to do that. Taking these drugs hurt both the user and many people around them.

I have more serious examples if you would like to hear them.

theHFnetwork wrote:

Master1 wrote:
GKAbyss wrote:
It does not matter if someone has fun trolling, or of they do it for good. The main point is that it hurts people directly.
I've trolled a lot of levels in the past, but I still have to agree with this. This is exactly why I no longer do it.
That's the spirit!

I think this is an important reason of why you should not punish people who trolled before the rules are created on trolling.

Last edited by GKAbyss (May 11 2013 4:42:30 pm)

Panic · Before February 2015

@GK Gun control laws have nothing to do with EE. You keep trying to bring real world examples to support your claims. Guns can be used to seriously harm or kill people, that's why there are gun control laws. Trolling in EE does artificial/virtual harm, no physical damage. I have no clue how you thought that it causes physical harm.There are clearly things wrong with killing people (in terms of the "survival of the species" from evolution, even though we already have a crap ton of people). What's wrong with power that can be easily taken away, or pixels that can easily be erased? Show me ONE person who has been absolutely psychologically scarred for life from trolling in EE. Having problems? MUCH easier to find one scarred from something related to guns.

You claim that it affects kids' self-esteem. This is the internet, there are insults everywhere. If you lose self-esteem by being called a noob, the internet is not the place for you.

If you really wish to use real world examples to help your argument, here's an example from me: The (Catholic) Pope is elected by 200 or so Cardinals, who are appointed by the Pope... Who gave the Pope the right to do almost anything?

@tak4n I agree, this thread isn't going anywhere. Mostly because people (me included) are posting arguments with more holes than a screen door. I do try to see the other side's point of view, but can't do it without adequate support.

GKAbyss · Before February 2015

@ panic it is not nearly as damaging as guns, but the fact still remains that it hurts people directly. My point was that things that directly hurt others should not be allowed. I think that people should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as it does not interfere in other people doing whatever they want, which trolling does. I see trolling and killing people as the same, just to different degrees. The concept of harming others is still the same.

The fact that this is the internet is not an excuse to allow bullying. Just because some people want to make fun of others does not mean anyone hurt by that should not be allowed on the internet, the people doing the damage should be the ones punished. You are letting people get away with hurting others.

I do not understand the point of the Pope example, so I am unable to answer correctly. I am assuming the answer is the 200 Cardinals. I suppose you would mean that the previous Pope gave the new Pope the power to do almost anything.

Last edited by GKAbyss (May 11 2013 5:25:14 pm)

Koto · Before February 2015

I see nothing wrong with occasionally trolling, like if your in the mood. I wouldn't even say I do it every other month (with friends, its different). It's the people that go out and troll every day, that you should be worried about, but I'm not going to say that their right to do it should get taken away. As I've said before, it can be used in a good way, but I will admit that it can also be used badly.

GKAbyss · Before February 2015

What I would like to do is create a level made to be trolled.
I make it like a normal level, but hide secret paths to a code room, with difficult minis. Then the people who get code will be able to troll it.

If it is made fully to be trolled there should not be much of a problem

Koto · Before February 2015

Do it on an alt, the people who troll everyday don't want to troll something is meant to be trolled.

tak4n · Before February 2015

I agree with both GKA and Panic. Yes the internet can hurt you and trolling can be painful. However, GKA it really **** me off when you relate this to anything to do with real life. The drugs hurt people, the government banned the drugs. The weapons hurt people, the government banned the guns. The internet hurts the people... you want the internet banned as well? At this point I take Panic's side. Since the internet hurts you as much as drugs and weapons do, you shouldn't be on the internet. However everyone can state their opinions not just one person. So you can't say only one person can -rep him and one person can +rep him. His true rep atm is -4 as I calculated. So stop spam repping his to 0. His rep deserves to be -4 unless another different person +reps or -reps him or if he gets +repped or -repped for a different reason.

GKAbyss · Before February 2015

I think the fun of trolling would be to find a way to troll a world, and maybe the actual trolling
Whatever account I use, If I make it fun and difficult to get or find a way to get the code, then it should work.

If people must troll levels not intended to be trolled then trolling should not be allowed in any levels.
I think it is too much trouble to make it on an alt acc and then somehow to make people troll that level instead of other levels without telling them that it is supposed to be trolled.

@Tak4n it is not the actual internet hurting people it is the people on the internet.
In the case of guns, it is not guns that are banned, it is the killing of people with guns.

Overall my views:

don't punish victims, punish the people who do the damage

In case of internet insults, don't give an excuse that it is the internet and that the people hurt should not be allowed to go on the internet, which is becoming extremely prevalent in today's society, you should instead keep the people insulting from insulting and hurting people.

I think everyone should be allowed to do what they want as long as it does not keep others from doing what they want/steals from them

steals life, steals time, hurts psychologically/physically

trolling for fun is having fun at the expense of psychological damage, expense of time, work, right to have fun. People cannot enjoy the game as much or maybe at all, if people are always trolling their levels to have fun.

The government has a bit of a problem with this with drugs and guns because it is supposed to save lives/protect us, and keep freedoms. However the fact that punishing people who kill with guns gives lives back, they attempt to prevent people from having unecessary guns, or to prevent people who are more likely to do harm from having guns.

Drugs are similar in that they negatively affect the person taking them, and many people around them. I guess the government bans drugs to prevent those people from being hurt or the people they know from being hurt.

Honestly I do not think that people should ever take any sort of drugs unless they are necessary to save your life, but this conflicts with my view of letting people do whatever they want as long as it does not hurt others

Last edited by GKAbyss (May 11 2013 6:00:13 pm)

Panic · Before February 2015

I am not using the internet as an excuse to harm others. I'm saying that harm is going to happen whether you like it or not. I do not like it either, but there isn't much we can do about it.

If you see the re-arrangement of pixels as similar to straight up homicide, then I'm not sure how to get anything through. One difference is that one is reversible, and the other isn't. I want to know what kind of harm can be caused by trolling.
I forget why I posted the thing about the Pope, as I'm simultaneously doing a project and I'm not sure hwy I'm posting on this forum anyway. Something to do with a small body giving power to a small body to affect a large body.

GKAbyss · Before February 2015

I accept that it is very unlikely to remove all abuse from the internet. However, just because the internet has abuse does not mean that people hurt by it should not go on the internet. If anyone is going to be punished, it should be the people who abuse. I am saying that the fact that the internet has abuse is no excuse to punish the victims(saying that the people hurt by it should not go on the internet)

With the comparison between pixels and killing, I do not see the difference in how much damage they do as important. The fact is that they both hurt people, which is all I care about.

Examples of how it can hurt people:
Someone's world gets trolled and suffers self esteem damage because the act of trolling can be, or be seen as an attack on someone, saying that they are "noob" or that they "suck" or that their level is or does.
When someone trolls:
There is going to be the most recent amount of work done that is gone, possibly more if people do not save, which should not be required every five minutes.
The owner has to find the person who trolls, in many cases it may be impossible.
If this happens everyone will lose the code and the person will have to give it out again.
Everyone who was drawing at the time loses the most recent work they did.
Anyone playing the level has to start all over again when the level is loadleveled
Many people will leave if the level is trolled or if they start over.
This will cause the owner to lose important players they spent possibly hours gaining.

The person who trolls takes all that time and effort away in a matter of seconds.

Last edited by GKAbyss (May 11 2013 6:29:43 pm)

Panic · Before February 2015

GKAbyss wrote:

I accept that it is very unlikely to remove all abuse from the internet. However, just because the internet has abuse does not mean that people hurt by it should not go on the internet. If anyone is going to be punished, it should be the people who abuse. I am saying that the fact that the internet has abuse is no excuse to punish the victims(saying that the people hurt by it should not go on the internet)
With the comparison between pixels and killing, I do not see the difference in how much damage they do as important. The fact is that they both hurt people, which is all I care about.
Examples of how it can hurt people:
-Snip-
When someone trolls:
-Snip-

My point is that since you will not be able to remove abuse from the internet, those who go on it should simply deal with it. It's not going to go away, and it won't always be the same person. Punishing all who do any sort of abuse online would take forever.

As for not seeing the difference between murder and pixels, you could probably exaggerate it into an insult towards a minor clothing choice and mass genocide. Through your logic, they're about the same, since they both hurt people.

For examples on hoe trolling hurts, people should just suck it up and deal with it. Do people not know how to get on with things anymore?

When someone is able to troll, it's probably because they were given the code. You can't honestly expect EVERYBODY that you give editing rights to to do everything you say, can you? There are no real legal bounds in regards to editing in this game. When someone puts the code at the end of a level, it is there as a reward. Regardless of the owner's intentions for putting the code, it means that whoever reaches that point is allowed to do whatever.

GKAbyss · Before February 2015

I do not think it would take forever. If most people on the internet have the view that abuse should stop, and actually take the actions to stop it, there would be significant decreases in the amount of abuse, I believe.

In the complete picture, I do not think trolling and killing are the same, but what matters to me when determining whether something is allowed is whether it hurts someone, which I am doing now. If I am doing that, they are all the same to me, yes.

"For examples on hoe[sic] trolling hurts, people should just suck it up and deal with it. Do people not know how to get on with things anymore?"

You are just punishing the people who are already having to deal with it. Rather than doing that I strongly believe you should be asking the trolls to stop trolling, and ask why not everyone cares about others' feelings yet.

We should not be telling people to suffer through and ignore abuse, we should be telling the people giving the abuse to stop. If everyone did that and made an effort to prevent abuse or punish people abusing others, I really think it would make a big difference.

Last edited by GKAbyss (May 11 2013 8:11:02 pm)

Pyromaniac · Before February 2015

I think the solution is simple. If you don't want your world trolled....DONT GIVE OUT EDIT.

You are always in complete control of trolling. You lose that control once you start giving out edit to people like me offering to give you the bunny smiley..

And I fail to understand how trolling is "harming" anybody.

This is a freaking children's game.

I still maintain the wonders of /load level. It's not an extra measure. You know how long it took me to type that? Not even half a second.

This is a problem as old as EE, trolling vs not. It's not going to be solved, ever. So let's all be happy and love and all that <3

Edit: for the record, while I do occasionally troll worlds, I'm not necessarily advocating or disowning trolling. I see both of the points, I just don't think it matters that much. It certainly doesn't deserve all of the publicity this thread has been getting

Last edited by Pyromaniac (May 11 2013 9:09:18 pm)

ThuggishPrune · Before February 2015

oh god my sides. My sides. Make it stop please. Oh my god I can't breath from this laughter

Panic · Before February 2015

"Punishment" usually involves measures beyond what has already happened. There are no extra measures taken on people who have been trolled, unless you mean the actual trolling itself. In that case, the actions that caused the "punishment" would be giving out the editing rights. Therefore, people who have had their maps trolled are not being punished. They are being taught to not randomly give out editing rights. It's their fault if they continue to do it.

Good luck trying to get people to stop "abuse" on the internet. It's been around for so long, people are just used to it. The vast majority are probably too lazy to do much about it anyway, and just ignore it. You seem to be making trolling a bigger deal than it is. The only harm being done by trolling is easily reversible. There is no physical(bodily) or mental damage.

Problems with abuse in general have been around for thousands of years. They involve, but are not limited to, religion, sexual orientation, race, and gender. They are slowly being solved, but they will never be completely gone. Nothing ever is. Trolling is the same.

There was a question I asked about 5 pages back that I still haven't received an answer to. I wonder if you can give me an (unbiased) answer.
What are the moral problems with trolling?

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