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#1 2018-12-11 22:46:24

shoppa
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Joined: 2016-11-07
Posts: 21

Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

When there are space levels that are extreme?

Shouldn't it be tagged as Medium-Extreme then?

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#2 2018-12-11 22:59:15

mikelolsuperman
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Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

The medium-hard tag is the average difficulty, there are some medium-hard campaigns that have the first 2 campaigns on medium and then 1 on hard so it's in between with difficulty.


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#3 2018-12-11 22:59:49, last edited by LukeM (2018-12-11 23:00:31)

LukeM
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Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

A big misunderstanding about the difficulty labels is that they describe the range of difficulties in the campaign (e.g. Medium-Hard means that there are both Medium and Hard parts of the worlds). This is not correct however, its saying that on average the world / campaign is somewhere between Medium and Hard. I guess think of Medium-Hard as "Medium and a half" XD

This doesn't make much of a difference with most campaigns though, its only really shown in a few special cases, for example when theres a campaign like Elemental which ranges from Easy-Medium to Extreme. The labelling is just saying that most of the worlds in the campaign are around the Medium-Hard difficulty.

Ninja'd again XD
Seems to be happening abnormally often recently

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#4 2018-12-12 00:06:01, last edited by azurepudding (2018-12-12 04:37:51)

azurepudding
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Joined: 2016-11-18
Posts: 726

Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

It's kinda misleading, yeah.  It should get a special tag of Medium-Hard-Extreme, or maybe just Medium-Extreme.  Tho if I had to pick between Medium-Hard and Hard-MediumEXTREME, the latter makes more sense I think.


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#5 2018-12-12 00:06:49

den3107
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From: Netherlands
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Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

Might I object to this system?

This average is "misleading" in a sense.
I mean yeah, it might be medium-hard on average, but people who know they can handle hard might get super discouraged or might even feel betrayed once they actually meet that extreme level, which they have no way of passing.
Taking it a bit too literal, while the average might be medium-hard, you're going to need more skill than that to actually be able to complete the ENTIRE thing. In this case due to the extreme maps.

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#6 2018-12-12 00:56:24, last edited by LukeM (2018-12-12 00:57:25)

LukeM
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From: England
Joined: 2016-06-03
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Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

den3107 wrote:

Might I object to this system?

This average is "misleading" in a sense.
I mean yeah, it might be medium-hard on average, but people who know they can handle hard might get super discouraged or might even feel betrayed once they actually meet that extreme level, which they have no way of passing.
Taking it a bit too literal, while the average might be medium-hard, you're going to need more skill than that to actually be able to complete the ENTIRE thing. In this case due to the extreme maps.

I guess there are two ways of thinking about it:

1. All the enjoyment comes from finishing the campaign
- This is what would be the case if you were only playing the campaign for the final reward
- The campaign itself is really boring, but when you get to the end you get a "wow I finished it" moment making it all worth it
- In this case the "difficulty is the hardest component you need to beat" method would make sense, as you can't get to the end without beating the whole thing

2. The enjoyment is spread throughout the whole campaign
- This is what would be the case if you play campaigns because you enjoy playing EE worlds
- You have fun throughout the whole campaign, enjoying each level you play
- In this case the "difficulty is the average of the components" method would make sense, as it doesn't matter if you complete the campaign, you've had fun nonetheless

Picking 1 when 2 is correct also has bad consequences, for example I don't expect to actually finish the campaign, but if it were labelled Hard-Extreme / Extreme then I would have never even clicked on it, and would have never had the fun I've had playing it.

(Personally I'm strongly in favour of system 2)

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#7 2018-12-12 04:37:28

azurepudding
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Posts: 726

Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

azurepudding wrote:

It's kinda misleading, yeah.  It should get a special tag of Medium-Hard-Extreme, or maybe just Medium-Extreme.  Tho if I had to pick between Medium-Hard and Hard-MediumEXTREME, the latter makes more sense I think.

O NO i messed up.

But yeh you can kind of compare the entirety of the elemental campaign pack as a game, and when you're told a game is medium difficulty but the final level is absolutely brutally difficult, you feel kind of lied to.  And usually when you play a game, you intend to finish it, yeah?  Especially when there's something as cool as the galaxy aura dangling over you as a huge reason to even play through and finish it all.


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#8 2018-12-12 07:59:01

mikelolsuperman
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Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

LukeM wrote:

Ninja'd again XD

How come your posts sometimes include the same info as the post above but you post it <60 seconds after the other post? Kinda strange


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#9 2018-12-12 14:10:58

MWstudios
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Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

mikelolsuperman wrote:
LukeM wrote:

Ninja'd again XD

How come your posts sometimes include the same info as the post above but you post it <60 seconds after the other post? Kinda strange

You can avoid that if you notice other posts written on the bottom of the page after clicking Preview
but who uses Preview today


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#10 2018-12-12 14:52:12

peace
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Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

MWstudios wrote:
mikelolsuperman wrote:
LukeM wrote:

Ninja'd again XD

How come your posts sometimes include the same info as the post above but you post it <60 seconds after the other post? Kinda strange

You can avoid that if you notice other posts written on the bottom of the page after clicking Preview
but who uses Preview today

i someitme so thcekc if BBC code is used corectly


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#11 2018-12-12 15:27:33

LukeM
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From: England
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Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

MWstudios wrote:
mikelolsuperman wrote:
LukeM wrote:

Ninja'd again XD

How come your posts sometimes include the same info as the post above but you post it <60 seconds after the other post? Kinda strange

You can avoid that if you notice other posts written on the bottom of the page after clicking Preview
but who uses Preview today

I always use preview, but the new post was posted in the 30 seconds it took me to read the preview XD

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#12 2018-12-13 00:04:12

den3107
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From: Netherlands
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Posts: 1,025

Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

LukeM wrote:

- In this case the "difficulty is the hardest component you need to beat" method would make sense, as you can't get to the end without beating the whole thing

You misunderstood me a bit there.
I didn't mean to make the whole campaign be marked as difficult as it's most difficult map, I was supporting the idea of actually having it be a range (so if there're medium and extreme levels, it'd be medium-extreme, instead of medium-hard).

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#13 2018-12-13 02:34:49, last edited by Slabdrill (2018-12-13 02:36:45)

Slabdrill
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Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

i'd actually increase the difficulty to hard; there's just enough "hard" rated worlds in the campaigns (i believe it's around 8 of them, plus 2 with a difficulty above that) that it deserves that difficulty hike

though regardless of if that goes through... unknown.png


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#14 2018-12-13 13:20:10, last edited by LukeM (2018-12-13 13:22:56)

LukeM
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Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

I'd say medium to hard is a good representation of the sorts of worlds in the campaign

Also, Kirby mentioned to me that they were also considering space a 'hidden' extra campaign, as such it wasn't included in the overall difficulty (making it 6 medium, 7 medium-hard, and 5 hard), in which case it really should be medium-hard whatever system of rating it you use.

E-M - 3 - xxx
 M  - 6 - xxxxxx
M-H - 7 - xxxxxxx
 H  - 8 - xxxxx...
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#15 2018-12-13 20:41:30

Slabdrill
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Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

LukeM wrote:

Also, Kirby mentioned to me that they were also considering space a 'hidden' extra campaign, as such it wasn't included in the overall difficulty (making it 6 medium, 7 medium-hard, and 5 hard), in which case it really should be medium-hard whatever system of rating it you use.

ok but unknown.png

...which makes hard clearly the better difficulty


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#16 2018-12-13 20:46:44

LukeM
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From: England
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Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

Slabdrill wrote:
LukeM wrote:

ok but https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ … nknown.png

...which makes hard clearly the better difficulty

If you're using the 'no enjoyment until you finish the campaign' argument then maybe, but if you take it to be an average difficulty then, whether you include space or not, its medium-hard

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#17 2018-12-13 23:43:29, last edited by azurepudding (2018-12-13 23:45:42)

azurepudding
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Joined: 2016-11-18
Posts: 726

Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

LukeM wrote:
Slabdrill wrote:
LukeM wrote:

ok but https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ … nknown.png

...which makes hard clearly the better difficulty

If you're using the 'no enjoyment until you finish the campaign' argument then maybe, but if you take it to be an average difficulty then, whether you include space or not, its medium-hard

I think he was making the "It says there are 5 campaigns" argument tho..

Also while there's fun in both the journey and the destination, the journey stops being so fun once you hit a brick wall.  Then it becomes all about the destination.  Said brick wall is the extreme section of this campaign pack, which wasn't listed in its difficulty setting, even though it's counted as 5 total as Slabdrill pointed out.  As of now, the Elemental campaign is the only Hard campaign that I have yet to beat, despite having beaten some Extreme worlds already.  I've beaten all other Hard ones, and some Extremes, but not this "Hard" one, because it's actually Extreme.

Medium-Extreme should do it I think.


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#18 2018-12-14 07:44:13

peace
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From: admin land
Joined: 2015-08-10
Posts: 9,226

Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

i would make an eclusive tag easy-extreme and with a lil descrioption syaing difficutly vary's between...


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thanks hg for making this much better and ty for my avatar aswell

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#19 2018-12-14 19:38:02

skullz17
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Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 6,697

Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

So what's the issue with using a range? Just call it easy-extreme and you know what it takes to beat the campaign entirely, and you can assume that medium-hard is the average difficulty. Usually you can even check if this is the case by checking the difficulty of the individual worlds, but in this case the hub system makes this difficult, which is one of the reasons I don't really like the hub.


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#20 2018-12-14 22:07:47, last edited by drunkbnu (2018-12-15 02:19:58)

drunkbnu
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Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

various.png

EDIT: It doesn't look bad.

elemental.png

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#21 2018-12-14 22:14:44

mikelolsuperman
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From: North Korea
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Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

What's the bright blue one?


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#22 2018-12-15 02:21:50

drunkbnu
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Joined: 2017-08-16
Posts: 2,306

Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

mikelolsuperman wrote:

What's the bright blue one?

It's a placeholder color, added with the only purpose of filling all characters and preventing color repetition.

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#23 2018-12-15 02:22:50

mikelolsuperman
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From: North Korea
Joined: 2016-06-26
Posts: 1,683
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Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

HG wrote:
mikelolsuperman wrote:

What's the bright blue one?

It's a placeholder color, added with the only purpose of filling all characters and preventing color repetition.

Ah ok.


Blue is my favourite color
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Signature made by Nebula

I also like lasagna, but not when it's blue

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#24 2018-12-15 05:12:08

Slabdrill
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From: canada
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Posts: 3,402
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Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

LukeM wrote:
Slabdrill wrote:
LukeM wrote:

ok but https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ … nknown.png

...which makes hard clearly the better difficulty

If you're using the 'no enjoyment until you finish the campaign' argument then maybe, but if you take it to be an average difficulty then, whether you include space or not, its medium-hard

Generally, from what I can tell, campaign difficulties in EE tend toward the harder end of the difficulties in the campaign. That might be wrong, but that's usually what it feels like.


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#25 2018-12-15 06:14:05

Xenonetix
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Re: Why does the lobby say elemental is medium-hard?

The Elemental Campaign is primarily the 4 core Elemental Campaigns of Fire, Water, Wind, and Earth. All 4 of those campaigns are either "Medium" or "Medium-Hard", and that's what the difficulty represents.

The Space Campaign is an extra campaign unlocked for completing the Elemental Campaign Set of 4 Campaigns, and is, as such, separate from the other 4, but we can't consider the Elemental Campaign complete, because it breaks the system for reaching Space in the Campaign Hub.

Hope this clears some stuff up.


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