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#1 2018-05-21 18:46:11

HeyNK
Member
Joined: 2017-04-07
Posts: 1,318

The tutorial series

Holy crap these tutorials are awful.

Overdecorated as hell and needlessly complicated.

Tutorial 4 was difficult even as an explerienced player to know where to go.

I'll edit and update this post with specific stuff when i feel like it.

Original tutorials were great becuse they were so simple and not messy.

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#2 2018-05-21 18:51:39

Gosha
Member
From: Russia
Joined: 2015-03-15
Posts: 6,202

Re: The tutorial series

The Everybody edits

Holy crap this everybody edits is awful.

Overdecorated as hell and needlessly complicated.

Lobby is difficult even as an explerienced player to know where to click.

I'll edit and update this post with specific stuff when i feel like it.

Original Everybody edits was great becuse it was so simple and not messy.

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#3 2018-05-21 18:59:49

Jersa
Banned
Joined: 2015-02-24
Posts: 81

Re: The tutorial series

HeyNK wrote:

Holy crap these tutorials are awful.

Overdecorated as hell and needlessly complicated.

Tutorial 4 was difficult even as an explerienced player to know where to go.

I'll edit and update this post with specific stuff when i feel like it.

Original tutorials were great becuse they were so simple and not messy.

I honestly think that complex tutorials that make the players more prepared to the physics of Everybody Edits, is better than having a really simple tutorial that doesn't show anything of the actual physics of Everybody Edits. Also, i don't really think these tutorials will make the players get "stuck" for 30 minutes or more...

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#4 2018-05-21 19:12:54

Pingohits
Banned
From: aids lizard
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 7,591

Re: The tutorial series

Jersa wrote:

I honestly think that complex tutorials that make the players more prepared to the physics of Everybody Edits, is better than having a really simple tutorial that doesn't show anything of the actual physics of Everybody Edits. Also, i don't really think these tutorials will make the players get "stuck" for 30 minutes or more...

fuhdoo references the aesthetics of said tutorials

it is immediately noticeable that the builder made a focus on minimap art rather that in-game. i am not disparaging the artistic capabilities of the builder, but for a tutorial meant to welcome newbie players, the map should be easy on the eyes and straightforward

the trees in the beginning of tutorial 2, for example, include grass blocks for minimap shading. a new player would not be able to make sense of this judgement, since they are, more or less, oblivious of minimap art


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#5 2018-05-21 19:24:17

LukeM
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From: England
Joined: 2016-06-03
Posts: 3,009
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Re: The tutorial series

Sure, EE is complicated, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a good way to explain it all in an easily followable way...

IMO you're just trying to explain and demonstrate too much in a single world, its just too much to take in in such a short period of time, maybe splitting it up would be best.

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#6 2018-05-21 19:39:30, last edited by HeyNK (2018-05-21 19:56:31)

HeyNK
Member
Joined: 2017-04-07
Posts: 1,318

Re: The tutorial series

no like the aesthetiics! look at the BG. Im a new player, 10 years old, i have NO IDEA what the hell is going on. 15 years old. still dont get it. 20 years old. maybe starting to get it. even with a degree its still hard to look at.
the swamp water and key doors are fine. its just that it looks SO BAD on the eyes that its impossible to play espescially as a noob. dont upwoot gosha for totally misinterpreting and wootfishing my post.

and the portals are fine too. but tutorial 4? are you seeing this? It looks SO BAD!!!! introduce the packages incrementally, the way they were designed, make the cute little ninja towers from the ninja pack and the cute little cowboys houses from the cowboy pack then the people will be like "ohh yeah cute a cowboy pack, i bet i can combinde that with the ninja pack in my own world to make something cool" instead of "HEY IDIOT, THIS IS PRO FKKKING ART, THIS IS WHAT YOU SHOULD BE MAKING" and then its like //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/sad(( wtf i feel so offended i cant understand why the level looks like dihhreah, i have never seen these switches and black blocks and fire and 20 different BG blocks on the screen at once in thier intended environment so how am i supposed to know wtf is going on


btw someone once said "" when I want to show my friends EE, I have them play jump jump jump." he's right, its a better tutorial then these messes. Why???
Because:
- it just works
- it gets the player used to the physics and basic mechanics
- variety of different situations to experience gravity, platforming, dots, etc.
- fun, cute, kind of hot.
- simple unintrusive backgrounds, creative uses of blocks to inspire young minds
- 100% focus on gameplay not smoking marrijuana cigarettes on the minimap
- no confusing minimap - solid block conflict like in the trees of the """official tutorials"""
- somehow manages to do a better job of teaching the player how to play then the official tutorials

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#7 2018-05-21 19:52:46

HeyNK
Member
Joined: 2017-04-07
Posts: 1,318

Re: The tutorial series

TUTORIAL PER TUTORIAL REVIEW THAT DESERVES ITS OWN POST AS IT IS DIFFERENT TO THE SUBJECT OF THE PREVIOUS POST THAT WAS A REPLY TO THE THREAD:
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Tutorial 1: its ok. the cave part with the torches and barrels is a bit overdecorated but overall 7/10.
Tutorial 2: wtf is going on 0/10

Hidden text

Tutiroail 3: pretty bad but not the worst. 6/10 apply yourself, could be a lot less sloppy with all the weird color zones. just take it easy, relax, and breathe.
Here are the major hiccups in quality:

Hidden text

Tutorial 4: literally a disaster, so bad, cannot be considered a tutorial. so much damn noise I can't even hear myself think. Levels shouldn't be this FKKKKK LOUD. will screenshot later if i feel like it.

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#8 2018-05-21 19:54:35

Gosha
Member
From: Russia
Joined: 2015-03-15
Posts: 6,202

Re: The tutorial series

HeyNK wrote:

Original tutorials were great becuse they were so simple and not messy.

by "Original" you mean chris world where they teach you how to move, jump, edit and collect coins?

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#9 2018-05-21 19:57:07

HeyNK
Member
Joined: 2017-04-07
Posts: 1,318

Re: The tutorial series

yes i do im not sure if you can still enter them. read my edit about jump jump jump for elaboration.

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#10 2018-05-21 21:25:26, last edited by RavaTroll (2018-05-21 21:43:24)

RavaTroll
Member
From: France
Joined: 2015-02-16
Posts: 820

Re: The tutorial series

Well tutorial 2 is awful but that's not a big secret to everybody. It's my least favorite of them all.
I wanted to remake them with a much simpler style with much less focus on minimap and more on ingame art - like tutorial 4 which is imo much better but may indeed seem a little overdecorated.

So the idea behind the complexity is that is was supposed to show off "advanced art" to new players so they can understand that EE is not only about ingame art - and probably show that it's difficult to move around in art-complex levels.
That's why the beginning of tutorial 2 has the art-style of tutorial 1 turning into something more advanced, to show some kind of evolution of what ee has come to.
But I agree it is quite bad and I've been wanting to redo it for some time now - maybe a year or so.
Tutorial 3 was all about that as well. As EE has minimap art, the idea was to showcase lots of different style in one level.
And I agree with invisible portals in tutorial 3 - bad game design.

If I could redo the entire tutorials today, though, I would just keep the simple tutorial 1 style all along, and maybe town down a bit on the decos for tutorial 4.

So since we're talking about tutorials right now, let me ask you this question, as it is why the tutorials have these issues : Should tutorials showcase what you can do art-wise in EE or should they focus on gameplay and simple design only ?

I'd like to read your review of tutorial 4 too.

EDIT :

HeyNK wrote:

Introduce the packages incrementally, the way they were designed, make the cute little ninja towers from the ninja pack and the cute little cowboys houses from the cowboy pack then the people will be like "ohh yeah cute a cowboy pack, i bet i can combinde that with the ninja pack in my own world to make something cool" instead of "HEY IDIOT, THIS IS PRO FKKKING ART, THIS IS WHAT YOU SHOULD BE MAKING" and then its like //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/sad(( wtf i feel so offended i cant understand why the level looks like dihhreah, i have never seen these switches and black blocks and fire and 20 different BG blocks on the screen at once in thier intended environment so how am i supposed to know wtf is going on

This is probably the best suggestion here and I think that's what I'll do if I ever redo the tutorials.

My idea of tutorials, if they were to be redone, would be this way :
- 650x50 ultra wide worlds : Gotta keep every single new idea introduced separate from one another to not give the new player too many informations.
- Simple game art that focuses on showing off each pack one by one, with a good use of BGs and blocks. Some decos but not too much.
- Maybe go for another tutorial to spread things out even more.
- Not much should be told : Let the player experiment and discover things by himself - use just a few hints.
- Never ever make anything confusing - like tutorial 2 right now
- Minimap art is the last thing that should be considered in tutorials

No promises on anything, just some thinking about it for now.


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#11 2018-05-21 21:48:27, last edited by LukeM (2018-05-21 21:49:40)

LukeM
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From: England
Joined: 2016-06-03
Posts: 3,009
Website

Re: The tutorial series

I would vote for them to focus on gameplay, as imo thats what actually needs tutorials, the rest can be learnt from experience. (not that art is bad, just don't compromise on understandability to make the art look better - especially minimap art)

And I would definately suggest that you go a bit slower than the most recent one, or at least explain the effects a bit more (it doesn't even mention that the jumping is an effect, just says 'sometimes you can't jump' //forums.everybodyedits.com/img/smilies/tongue), although I guess this might not be your fault, as you do have to jump around a lot to cover what wasn't covered in / has been added since the previous tutorials.

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#12 2018-05-21 23:20:15

mutantdevle
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From: Hell
Joined: 2015-03-31
Posts: 3,847
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Re: The tutorial series

Pingohits wrote:

a new player would not be able to make sense of this judgement, since they are, more or less, oblivious of minimap art

I'm an experienced player and I noticed neither the in-game art nor the minimap art :3


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#13 2018-05-21 23:56:41, last edited by TaskManager (2018-05-21 23:56:55)

TaskManager
Formerly maxi123
From: i really should update this
Joined: 2015-03-01
Posts: 9,457

Re: The tutorial series

RavaTroll wrote:

So since we're talking about tutorials right now, let me ask you this question, as it is why the tutorials have these issues : Should tutorials showcase what you can do art-wise in EE or should they focus on gameplay and simple design only ?

the tutorials should focus almost entirely on game play. minimap art and advanced overly decorated ingame art is like an end-game thing that only experienced players see and make
when the campaigns were first added i really liked it how the beauty of minimap art escalated with campaign difficulty (excluding tutorials), with easy and medium worlds using pretty simple style (adventure league, tunnel rats) and the FFS campaign worlds being truly works of art on the minimap, kinda displayed how the quality of worlds progressed in all dimensions

i believe sensei1's world building/art style would be really good for EE tutorials since it uses a lot of platforms for terrain etc. making the world area easy to travel around and EE is much of a platformer game and this style is really simplistic in terms of colour/blocks palette, theres a few solid blocks and a few background blocks and thats all.

this is not to offend your art style rava, i like it as well, but it is more understandable/admirable for players that have more or less established themselves in the game, newbies simply wont understand


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#14 2018-05-22 00:07:23

RavaTroll
Member
From: France
Joined: 2015-02-16
Posts: 820

Re: The tutorial series

I don't remember when I said that, but I think it was in another thread about tutorials as well : I do believe that tutorials should look more like Sensei1's art for the new players to enjoy.
Tutorial 4 was an attempt to take that style and make it a bit more "dense" but I can see it did not work as much as I expected it to.

I'll look into remaking the tutorials ! Still no promises, but it's something I'd like to do as I said before - i've been thinking about this for a long time now.
In the mean time can you guys continue to throw you ideas and feedback in here ? The more there is the better !


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#15 2018-05-22 00:25:49

Norwee
Formerly NorwegianboyEE
From: Norway
Joined: 2015-03-16
Posts: 3,772

Re: The tutorial series

Wow so i’m not the only one that had this on my mind the entire time i was playing these "revised tutorials"? They always felt like this hilarious parody of how bloated and bad EE has become, with tutorials that don’t focus on jumping and simple gravity interaction but rather these advanced "eedd" speedminis that utilize advanced fancy super duper pro "minis" with shaded minimap art that look super confusing ingame... presented at the point in which the user probably doesn’t even know you can turn on an minimap. xD
Why not just say: "Hey kid, turn on that minimap and set your eyes on FIRE with this god damned holy BEAUTY that you’ll never learn to make. Remember to subscribe to EX crew kids! WOOO our levels are the best!"


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#16 2018-05-22 00:42:07

HeyNK
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Joined: 2017-04-07
Posts: 1,318

Re: The tutorial series

Great minds think alike, my anime friend.

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#17 2018-05-22 02:12:44, last edited by Norwee (2018-05-22 07:12:05)

Norwee
Formerly NorwegianboyEE
From: Norway
Joined: 2015-03-16
Posts: 3,772

Re: The tutorial series

HeyNK wrote:

Great minds think alike, my anime friend.

I don’t watch anime, i've evolved beyond that. I only play erotic visual novels. Keep your facts straight.

Taskmanager wrote:

i really liked it how the beauty of minimap art escalated with campaign difficulty (excluding tutorials), with easy and medium worlds using pretty simple style (adventure league, tunnel rats) and the FFS campaign worlds being truly works of art on the minimap, kinda displayed how the quality of worlds progressed in all dimensions

Anyway, moving on to what Taskmanager said. He mentions that EE campaigns has like this natural progression of what EE has become, so basically: (simple parkour, simple art which then evolves into FFS campaign levels which are considered "masterpieces" by the community.) Well in my honest opinion i think those fancy minimap levels built around art are CRAP. Does not feel good to play, overly complex annoying sets of manouvers and it’s difficult to even find the path you need to manouver due to confusing mishmashs of colours. I remember not being able to understand why people like Polis, whom i used to be good friends with and i knew had an specific level making style, suddenly changed his style drastically and created awful levels like Persian Peril, forsaking any quality gameplay just for approval by the minimap lovers i guess.
So my point is that rather than convincing new susceptible players that this is the "natural progression of EE", and what one must do to be good. I think the EE devs should focus on what actually made EE popular in the first place. Can you guess what that is? It’s not fancy EX crew derived levels, it’s CREATIVITY! To create whatever the hell you want. So please dear EE devs, think about how you can nudge new player's creative talents in their own desired direction rather than convincing them to join the arrowmini-minimap club of cool "esteemed" players.

Ravatroll wrote:

So the idea behind the complexity is that is was supposed to show off "advanced art" to new players so they can understand that EE is not only about ingame art

Ravatroll mentions the tutorial levels became this way due to wanting to showcase that EE is not just about ingame art. Something which i think is quite unnecessary seeing as there has been a minimap art epidemic going on for an long while now in my eyes, it’s starting to weaken a little. But tutorial 4 is quite an good example of all the bad aspects of this policy being revived yet again. As my good friend Nlmdejonge would say: "I’m afraid the campaign developers are attempting to nudge the campaign worlds in an distinctly arrowpath-like direction"
We need, as an community, to be less restrictive towards the creative freedoms of newbies if we wish to make EE great again.

Relevant: https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … p?id=31330


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