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#1 2017-10-08 10:30:26

Xfrogman43
Member
From: need to find a new home
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 4,174

Adding worlds to campaigns

Krosis wrote:

and btw, please contact the owners of the world before making the world in a campaign will you?

https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … pid=679718

Really, you didn't ask him for permission? I thought that was a rule...


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#2 2017-10-08 10:37:30

mutantdevle
Moderation Team
From: Hell
Joined: 2015-03-31
Posts: 3,793
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Re: Adding worlds to campaigns

I believe Luka also did not really want his world in the relativity campaign to be added to such campaign as it was not one of his better worlds and that there was still work to be done on it. (Not exactly what he said but that's the main idea IIRC).


They shouldn't be adding worlds that they don't have permission to add. Consent is important. Otherwise, you are basically just stealing people's worlds.


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#3 2017-10-08 12:25:14

Luka504
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From: Serbia,probs never heard of it
Joined: 2015-02-19
Posts: 2,932

Re: Adding worlds to campaigns

That's my que to step in.
To be perfectly fair, before V6 was made Megalamb came up to me one day and asked "Hey ur worlds are kewl might be a campaign" and I replied that he is allowed to make any of my worlds a campaign if he sees them worthy. I didn't have an issue with my worlds at the time so any he picked would've been fine.

However that changed during the creation of v6. When I first stated making that world, I really liked it and thought it was gonna be a great world. Megalamb checked up on the progress and was really invested in the world being finished, even telling me it could be a campaign if it was finished. However this is when I started to realise that v6 isn't really a good campaign choice because it is a bland and buggy world. I liked the world I made I just didn't want it to be a campaign.

So I went over to Megalamb and told him not to make it a campaign, and he replied "Yeah but v6 is already part of the campaign, I can't take it out, I can only release the campaign" which to me felt like a stab in the gut. I don't want to blame Megalamb for him doing this, I did tell him that he can use any of my worlds if he wanted to, however I expected him to at the very least ask me if I am absolutely sure that I want a world to be a campaign. I thought that Megalamb understood that v6 being a campaign made me upset and would ask for my consent next time.

Then Megalamb told me that the Snake world was part of the Halloween 2017 campaign.
He dun did it again.
Luckily I really like that world so I had no issue with it being a campaign, but still...


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#4 2017-10-08 19:42:36

Zoey2070
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From: Shakuras
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 5,483

Re: Adding worlds to campaigns

ee owns all your worlds so they really don't NEED your permission


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#5 2017-10-08 19:45:00

mutantdevle
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From: Hell
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Re: Adding worlds to campaigns

Zoey2070 wrote:

ee owns all your worlds so they really don't NEED your permission

I disagree.

They make you abide by an agreement if your world is added as a campaign. You can't just force people into an agreement.


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#6 2017-10-08 19:47:41

hummerz5
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From: wait I'm not a secret mod huh
Joined: 2015-08-10
Posts: 5,846

Re: Adding worlds to campaigns

Devlin wrote:
Zoey2070 wrote:

ee owns all your worlds so they really don't NEED your permission

I disagree.

They make you abide by an agreement if your world is added as a campaign. You can't just force people into an agreement.

I feel like the underlying implicit agreement is that if you **** off your userbase enough they'll leave. Otherwise EE's private so it's "whatever I say goes" fairness notwithstanding.

though you might already be assuming that anyhow

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#7 2017-10-08 20:39:47, last edited by Xfrogman43 (2017-10-08 20:41:15)

Xfrogman43
Member
From: need to find a new home
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 4,174

Re: Adding worlds to campaigns

Nou wrote:

Campaign world user agreement.

Hi!
Congratulations! Your level has been selected to be part of a campaign. However, to make a world part of a campaign, some changes in rights have to be made. Of course, we will only make it part of a campaign if you allow us to do so, because it has some consequences for you and your world:

https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … p?id=30891
Just gonna put this here


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#8 2017-10-09 01:19:34

Master1
Member
From: Crait
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 4,452

Re: Adding worlds to campaigns

Xfrogman43 wrote:
Nou wrote:

Campaign world user agreement.

Hi!
Congratulations! Your level has been selected to be part of a campaign. However, to make a world part of a campaign, some changes in rights have to be made. Of course, we will only make it part of a campaign if you allow us to do so, because it has some consequences for you and your world:

https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … p?id=30891
Just gonna put this here

I forgot nou still owned the game, hm


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#9 2017-10-09 02:19:18

N1KF
Wiki Mod
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 10,456
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Re: Adding worlds to campaigns

Devlin wrote:
Zoey2070 wrote:

ee owns all your worlds so they really don't NEED your permission

I disagree.

They make you abide by an agreement if your world is added as a campaign. You can't just force people into an agreement.

By playing the game, you're in an agreement that Everybody Edits owns the worlds. There is no agreement anywhere that your worlds can't be forced into a campaign, aside from Nou's statement, but that's not part of the official policy and can probably be disregarded for many reasons.

Note that I'm going by what Zoey says and I don't know how virtual ownership works so don't take this as legal advice. Not that any reasonable person would.


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#10 2017-10-09 06:31:52, last edited by proficuous (2017-10-09 06:32:11)

proficuous
Formerly terence
Joined: 2017-04-16
Posts: 97

Re: Adding worlds to campaigns

I feel like the community is small enough that they should maybe ask for some user input to take into consideration about the order/inclusivity of campaigns. The bare minimum should be asking level-owners, as it has been in the past.

They definitely do not have anything beyond a moral obligation to do so, but I mean if the mods don't want to make the game any worse then some creator input is pretty much the bare minimum.

Luka's world as the final tier of relativity is a great example. The entire campaign seems rushed, but either way I really, really did not enjoy Luka's level. I have yet to bring myself to play it all the way through, and I usually really enjoy his levels. Bias may be getting in the way but I feel like that's a pretty shared sentiment. I didn't realize Luka felt the same way.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that there is now more to do within the game. Regardless, I can't help but feel the relativity/halloween 2017 campaign(s) remind me of the mess I'd put together when I realize a deadline is coming up for a big project and I've done the bare minimum to accomplish it.

Basically, more user (especially creator) input please. Maybe a method to look retroactively at campaigns? Getting people to come to a consensus is difficult for anything, especially the listing and order of 4-5 levels, but I feel like a majority can be reached on whether certain levels are "worthy" of being in campaigns, or should be retroactively taken out.

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#11 2017-10-09 06:58:31, last edited by N1KF (2017-10-09 06:59:33)

N1KF
Wiki Mod
Joined: 2015-02-15
Posts: 10,456
Website

Re: Adding worlds to campaigns

terence wrote:

Basically, more user (especially creator) input please. Maybe a method to look retroactively at campaigns? Getting people to come to a consensus is difficult for anything, especially the listing and order of 4-5 levels, but I feel like a majority can be reached on whether certain levels are "worthy" of being in campaigns, or should be retroactively taken out.

How about taking advantage of beta for this? Beta users could see and play the levels in the campaign before they're permanently part of it. Of course, this wouldn't be an excuse for the mods to put whatever they want in a campaign and see what sticks, but it could prevent more mistakes in the future.

Getting a world permanently campaign-locked is a pretty big deal and shouldn't be clumsily done.


I am researching smileys and the world they inhabit. If you think you've found a clue, let me know.

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#12 2017-10-09 10:24:11, last edited by Xenonetix (2017-10-09 10:27:42)

Xenonetix
Past Owner
From: Working on EEU
Joined: 2015-03-07
Posts: 893
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Re: Adding worlds to campaigns

Hoo boy, here we go.

Xfrogman43 wrote:
Krosis wrote:

and btw, please contact the owners of the world before making the world in a campaign will you?

https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt … pid=679718

Really, you didn't ask him for permission? I thought that was a rule...

So, somewhat annoyingly, I was planning to ask permission for this level (more recently), but two points of note:

Firstly, and I have no idea who it was who did it, but there was already campaign data associated with this specific level from before I joined the team, so I was under the impression that permission had been sought-after. It occurs to me in hindsight that the reason it had the data was due to the fact the data was added, and permission was never found, so it was never used. Apologies for that.

Secondly, I was rushed to get this campaign out, which I was NOT happy about. I planned to get this out closer to Hallowe'en, but, apparently, (and I have no idea who was making these complaints,) some members of the community were complaining that the Hallowe'en Campaign wasn't out at the start of October. I don't see why it should be, as Hallowe'en takes place at the end of October, and my original planned release date was Sunday 22nd October. The badge is not as polished as I would have liked it to be either, and during the next two weeks, I wanted to talk to all of the level owners about their levels, and making them part of the campaign.

Devlin wrote:

They shouldn't be adding worlds that they don't have permission to add. Consent is important. Otherwise, you are basically just stealing people's worlds.

Yes and no. I agree that consent is important. I do not agree that we are just stealing other people's worlds.

Luka504 wrote:

That's my que to step in.
To be perfectly fair, before V6 was made Megalamb came up to me one day and asked "Hey ur worlds are kewl might be a campaign" and I replied that he is allowed to make any of my worlds a campaign if he sees them worthy. I didn't have an issue with my worlds at the time so any he picked would've been fine.

However that changed during the creation of v6. When I first stated making that world, I really liked it and thought it was gonna be a great world. Megalamb checked up on the progress and was really invested in the world being finished, even telling me it could be a campaign if it was finished. However this is when I started to realise that v6 isn't really a good campaign choice because it is a bland and buggy world. I liked the world I made I just didn't want it to be a campaign.

So I went over to Megalamb and told him not to make it a campaign, and he replied "Yeah but v6 is already part of the campaign, I can't take it out, I can only release the campaign" which to me felt like a stab in the gut. I don't want to blame Megalamb for him doing this, I did tell him that he can use any of my worlds if he wanted to, however I expected him to at the very least ask me if I am absolutely sure that I want a world to be a campaign. I thought that Megalamb understood that v6 being a campaign made me upset and would ask for my consent next time.

Then Megalamb told me that the Snake world was part of the Halloween 2017 campaign.
He dun did it again.
Luckily I really like that world so I had no issue with it being a campaign, but still...

Well, I did think we were on the same page about VVVVVV becoming a Campaign World, so I apologize for misunderstanding our communications. Nevertheless, I still think it's a fantastic world, and in its rightful place in a campaign. When you spoke to me about this, the level had indeed already been added to the campaign, and the campaign was already in the game and being tested. If the level had not already been added, I would have not added it in the first place, had I known you didn't want it to be added.

As for Snakes, we specifically had a conversation about it being campaigned, as that was the first level I had played of yours that I really loved so much and knew I wanted it to be campaigned. I believe this was the level in which you did tell me I could make any of your worlds campaigned if I see them worthy, so, as far as I'm concerned, I do consider this consent. You are allowed to change your mind though, and I'm sorry I didn't approach you again.

hummerz5 wrote:
Devlin wrote:
Zoey2070 wrote:

ee owns all your worlds so they really don't NEED your permission

I disagree.

They make you abide by an agreement if your world is added as a campaign. You can't just force people into an agreement.

I feel like the underlying implicit agreement is that if you **** off your userbase enough they'll leave. Otherwise EE's private so it's "whatever I say goes" fairness notwithstanding.

though you might already be assuming that anyhow

By a technicality, Zoey is correct. Nevertheless, I do feel it a moral requirement to ask permission. I know for a fact that the majority of levels included in past campaigns (long before I joined the team) never had permission sought-after, and many of them never had their worlds replaced, as agreed in the agreement, so, sadly, the whole Campaign Agreement is out-dated, and it's unfair for us to ask you to agree to it if we don't hold up our end of the deal. As a result of this, I would appreciate if a forum moderator could close and unstick the Campaign User Agreement thread, and I will write a new one at some point soon.

All of the Journey campaign world owners (except for myself) were issued with replacement worlds. I will be making sure all of the Gravity and Hallowe'en 2017 world owners receive free replacement worlds as well.

N1KF wrote:

By playing the game, you're in an agreement that Everybody Edits owns the worlds. There is no agreement anywhere that your worlds can't be forced into a campaign, aside from Nou's statement, but that's not part of the official policy and can probably be disregarded for many reasons.

Note that I'm going by what Zoey says and I don't know how virtual ownership works so don't take this as legal advice. Not that any reasonable person would.

Sadly, this is true. I'll do what I can to make a more reasonable agreement.

terence wrote:

I feel like the community is small enough that they should maybe ask for some user input to take into consideration about the order/inclusivity of campaigns. The bare minimum should be asking level-owners, as it has been in the past.

It hasn't always been this way in the past unfortunately. I do try to get community feedback for many of these campaigns, but at the same time, other staff members have complained at me for revealing too much about upcoming campaigns and updates.

terence wrote:

They definitely do not have anything beyond a moral obligation to do so, but I mean if the mods don't want to make the game any worse then some creator input is pretty much the bare minimum.

I gave myself the rule that I refused to adjust the gameplay of any levels in campaigns without the level creator present. I worked with CommanderKitten and SmittyW to adjust their worlds for the Journey campaign. I have added signs in some instances without permission, but mainly for clarification purposes when lack of knowing where to go has been known to be a problem.

terence wrote:

Luka's world as the final tier of relativity is a great example. The entire campaign seems rushed, but either way I really, really did not enjoy Luka's level. I have yet to bring myself to play it all the way through, and I usually really enjoy his levels. Bias may be getting in the way but I feel like that's a pretty shared sentiment. I didn't realize Luka felt the same way.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that there is now more to do within the game. Regardless, I can't help but feel the relativity/halloween 2017 campaign(s) remind me of the mess I'd put together when I realize a deadline is coming up for a big project and I've done the bare minimum to accomplish it.

The Relativity campaign wasn't as rushed as it "seems", which is somewhat annoying to me. I put a lot of time and effort into these campaigns, regardless of appearances. That said, as mentioned earlier, I was not planning on releasing Hallowe'en 2017 for another couple of weeks, so that one was more rushed, but not by my choice.

terence wrote:

Basically, more user (especially creator) input please. Maybe a method to look retroactively at campaigns? Getting people to come to a consensus is difficult for anything, especially the listing and order of 4-5 levels, but I feel like a majority can be reached on whether certain levels are "worthy" of being in campaigns, or should be retroactively taken out.

More easily said than done, certainly, especially in the case of the permanent campaigns, but I can see what I can do. As for the ordering of levels, I do seek the feedback of the staff, and a few community members, instead of just making the order decision myself.

N1KF wrote:

How about taking advantage of beta for this? Beta users could see and play the levels in the campaign before they're permanently part of it. Of course, this wouldn't be an excuse for the mods to put whatever they want in a campaign and see what sticks, but it could prevent more mistakes in the future.

Part of the problem with this is the nature of how the rewards work. If we made a campaign, and then people received the rewards in Beta, and then we deleted a level in the campaign, then some Beta members would receive extra rewards. Alternatively, we'd release the campaigns in Beta with 0 rewards, but then people wouldn't have much motivation to test it. I'm relatively sure a lot of people would also complain that they have to play through the levels twice, because rewards cannot be awarded retroactively - You only receive rewards on completion of the level.

N1KF wrote:

Getting a world permanently campaign-locked is a pretty big deal and shouldn't be clumsily done.

Agreed, although thankfully, in the temporary campaigns, worlds can be reverted, so if Krosis really would not like Purple Depths campaigned, I can make sure it's replaced after the duration of this campaign is complete, and Krosis will have full control over his level again. Permanent campaigns are harder to fix, and if Luka wants VVVVVV removed, we can have a discussion about it, and the ramifications of it happening.


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