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Norwee

Formerly NorwegianboyEE

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Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

NOMINATION MAFIA

Setup explanation:

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Nomination Mafia (MS Wiki).

1. 3 mafia goons, 8 vanilla townies.
2. On odd-numbered days (D1, D3, D5, etc) the day proceeds as normal.
3. On even-numbered days (D2, D4, D6, etc) the lynch is locked among 3 players, nominated previously by the mafia.
4. The mafia will be given 24 hours to pick their targets after every odd-numbered day. Mafia may skip night with unanimous agreement from the scumteam.
5. The nominated players will be announced by the mod at the start of every even-numbered day.
6. Town must lynch every day; as such, the first ones to break a voting tie post-deadline decides the lynch if the town did not achieve an lynch prior. If nobody has been voted at the end of the day, the first person to get voted flips.
7. Mafia have daytalk.
8. Each day phase last 72 hours, nights last 24 hours and are only for when the mafia team has to make an nomination decision. Otherwise the game proceeds directly to the next day.

Role PM's:

Vanilla town

You rolled town

Your faction wins once all of the mafia has been eliminated.

The game is here: [link]

Mafia goon

You rolled scum. Your partners are [Partner A] and [Partner B].

Your PT is here: [link]

Your faction wins once the alive mafia players gain parity with town players.

The game is here: [link]

Rules:

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1: Don’t be toxic. Argue politely.
2: Don’t gamethrow or actively work against your win condition.
3: I will be using orange colour for my modtext. Don’t use it to impersonate me.
4: After a long period of inactivity you will be prodded, if you don’t respond in 24 hours you will be replaced.
5: You may ask for replacement by pm’ing me.
6: Voting rules: Please use (h) tag to highlight your vote so it will be impossible for me to miss it. Example of a valid vote:

!Vote Player

Valid unvote:

!Unvote

7: Votes inside of a spoiler, invisible, or encrypted. Will NOT be counted.
8: Phases - Days are 3 days (72 hours) long. Nights are 1 day (24 hours) long on odd days, to allow the mafia to nominate three lynch candidates on even days. I will skip night with unanimous consent from scum.
9: If the deadline has been reached and there is either a voting tie or no votes has been placed, the first person that breaks the tie decides the outcome. If it takes too long, I will randomly flip one of the available slots.

Alive players:

1: ZeldaXD
2: Kira
3: Onjit ShadowsEdge
4: ILikeTofuuJoe
5: Slabdrill
6: Taskmanager

Dead players:
KirbyKareem. Lynched Day 1. Vanilla townie.
(Processor) Peace. Lynched Day 2. Vanilla townie.
mutantdevle. Lynched Day 3. Vanilla townie.
eleizibeth. Lynched Day 4. Vanilla townie.
Crybaby NoNK. Lynched Day 5. Vanilla townie.

Day 2 nomination:

▼Hidden text

ShadowsEdge, Mutantdevle, Peace

Day 4 nomination:

▼Hidden text

ShadowsEdge, eleizibeth, Taskmanager

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★              ☆        ★        ☆         ★
   ☆    ★                     ★

mutantdevle

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

Do I actually get to post on this day?

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mutantdevle

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Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

Okay, so I kinda expected myself and peace to be in the first pool. And for that reason, I think this pool is 100% town. That said, if anyone in the pool is mafia then it’s shadowsedge and, to be honest, it’s going to take quite a lot to convince me to lynch peace instead.

I know I’m town. Perhaps for me today will be about convincing y’all that’s true. After all, it’s perfectly reasonable to point to me as a player who would put myself in the pool. By from the perspective of believing me to be town, the reason mafia would put someone like me (a hard to lynch player) into the pool would be to narrow the lynch down to the other 2 players in the pool.

Scum peace is never placed into the pool - especially not this early. For that alone peace is a lock town read for me. He is the lynch bait. I have no doubt that when the mafia designed this pool their full intention was to have peace lynched. After all, why wouldn’t we lynch peace? I’ll tell you why we shouldn’t: the mafia want us to.

So then there’s shadowsedge. Another strong and valuable player that we’d ideally want to keep around - further evidence the mafia wants us to lynch peace.

With peace lynched the mafia would then be free seed doubt into shadow and I (assuming both town) later in the game to have us reconsidered for lynching. That’s not something they’d be able to do with peace considering how obviously townie he’d be. Alternatively, in the unlikely case that shadowsedge is mafia they could potentially use this pool to try and gain town credit.

So in short, from my perspective shadowsedge is the only person in the pool who has a chance of being mafia, albeit a chance I consider small. Currently, I think the only thing that would change my mind is if it becomes obvious that peace is actually scum and this is the mafia trying to get rid of him before he does too much damage to them.

!vote Shadowsedge

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mutantdevle

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From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

since onjit allegedly opted out because hes not mafia anymore

I had forgotten about this and it already makes me reconsider my stance. With both shadowsedge and peace looking so obviously townie I’m starting to think that perhaps the intention of this pool was to have me lynched.

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mutantdevle

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From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

**** it

!vote peace

I have no reason to think that Onjit would try to trick us (he’s capable of tricks, but I think he’d want to stay in the game) so Shadowsedge is also a lock town read for me. This pool is blatantly all town so I guess that means we default to lynching the least useful.

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mutantdevle

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From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

Posts: 3,848

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

Crybaby, what's with your needless aggressive and nitpicky post?

TaskManager, I'm not going to respond directly to you because I think all the issues you have with my approach to this day will be answered in my response to Crybaby:

Okay, so I kinda expected myself and peace to be in the first pool.

Explain why

I expected peace to be in the lynch pool because it's the meme-y thing to do. It's basically a free misslynch for the mafia.
I expected myself to be in the lynch pool because, again, it's a meme-y thing to do. Furthermore, putting a player who is unlikely to be lynched in the lynch pool focusses the lynch onto the other 2 players.

I expected us both to be in the lynch pool because, yet again, that's the meme thing to do. This forum is inherently meme-y. Wouldn't it be funny if the player people consider to be the strongest is in the same pool as the player who is considered to be the weakest?

And for that reason, I think this pool is 100% town.

You came to this conclusion way too quickly. You and peace being in the pool does not mean the pool is 100% town, especially considering this "evidence" you proport to have has nothing to do with the third player. In addition, there is no way in hell any of the three of you can be auto-trusted.

As I clearly stated, I had been thinking on the idea that myself and peace would be in the starting pool before the day even started. Why then is it so hard to believe that I'd come to this conclusion as quickly as I did? In fact, why do you even think it's so hard to come to instant conclusions, is that something you don't consider possible?

My logic behind believing that peace and I would be in the pool together relies on the basis that the mafia are memeing. Aka they're not taking the pool too seriously. Hence, that naturally extends to the third candidate making it more likely that the third candidate is also town.

That said, if anyone in the pool is mafia then it’s shadowsedge

Why?

peace only even ends up in the lynch pool when he is town. As mafia, peace would be incredibly obvious. He'd be lynched very quickly if put into the pool. Then, forcing town to lynch peace on a day where we have full control of the lynch is obviously better for the mafia than wasting him in a pool lynch. For this reason, peace simply being in the pool made me conclude he was town. If you have any reason to believe scum would put scum!peace in the lynch pool then I'd love to hear it.

Obviously, I then know myself to be town. Hence, based on my conclusion above there only player that ever has a chance of being mafia was the third person (especially considering my previous logic as to why the third person is likely to be town is not absolute).

and, to be honest, it’s going to take quite a lot to convince me to lynch peace instead.

Oh, really? Is that so?

**** it

!vote peace
I have no reason to think that Onjit would try to trick us (he’s capable of tricks, but I think he’d want to stay in the game) so Shadowsedge is also a lock town read for me. This pool is blatantly all town so I guess that means we default to lynching the least useful.

Well, that was a **** lie.

Was it? Please point out where I lied. I made a statement, my statement turned out to be wrong. That's not lying, that's simply being wrong. The fact that you're trying to frame this as a lie is incredibly manipulative. Furthermore, you were given full context as to why my mind changed. I didn't recall Onjit's post when making my previous conclusion. When I realised this information, it affected my conclusion. What part of that do you have difficulty with? 

I know I’m town.

Really? Because we don't.

Okay, what's your point? This is a fact that I'm very aware of and has no impact on anything I have said.

Perhaps for me today will be about convincing y’all that’s true.

You've gots a lots of 'splainin' to do Mr. Mutant.

As do you.

After all, it’s perfectly reasonable to point to me as a player who would put myself in the pool.

I'll come back to this later on in my post because I have something to say about this.

By from the perspective of believing me to be town, the reason mafia would put someone like me (a hard to lynch player) into the pool would be to narrow the lynch down to the other 2 players in the pool.

You aren't so hard to lynch anymore, Mutant. If you make yourself out to be the scummiest player in a game like this, where a lynch is required every single day, then it's very likely that you can die, so don't be so reckless.

Do you disagree that I'm a player that's generally considered harder to lynch? What do you think would be the reason that mafia would put me in the pool assuming I am town? I find it hard to believe that you'd come to a conclusion that doesn't match mine.

Scum peace is never placed into the pool - especially not this early.

Explain.

- Peace is likely to be lynched in any pool regardless of his alignment.
- Peace is very obvious when he is mafia.
- Putting peace in the scum pool as mafia almost guarantees his lynch.
- Even if the mafia wanted to get rid of scum!peace, they'd prefer that he be lynched when we can choose anyone rather than just handing him over when they get to choose who the lynch candidates are.
- Any half-decent mafia would realise this.

For that alone peace is a lock town read for me. He is the lynch bait.

One could consider you the lynch bait because

it’s perfectly reasonable to point to me as a player who would put myself in the pool.

and the same goes for ShadowsEdge.

You clearly do not understand what lynch bait means. peace is lynch bait because people naturally want to lynch him, all the mafia then have to do is put him forward. The reason you just gave for why myself and shadow are supposedly 'lynch bait' is actually wifom. All it means is that you can't rule us out as being mafia based on pool composition alone.

I have no doubt that when the mafia designed this pool their full intention was to have peace lynched.

This is another thing that I want to come back to later on in this post.

After all, why wouldn’t we lynch peace? I’ll tell you why we shouldn’t: the mafia want us to.

Why we should: Peace is historically the weakest player of the three.
Why we really shouldn't: Will explain later in the post

Yes, which is why I later changed my mind. But at the time I thought peace was townier than shadow could ever be. Y'all seriously underestimate how valuable it is that peace can become psuedo-confirmed town. Contributing to the game is obviously helpful but means nothing if your reads are wrong. On the other hand, when there's 1 less player we have to worry about trying to town read it makes finding and lynching mafia significantly and statistically easier.

So then there’s shadowsedge. Another strong and valuable player that we’d ideally want to keep around - further evidence the mafia wants us to lynch peace.

Another thing to come back to.

With peace lynched the mafia would then be free seed doubt into shadow and I (assuming both town) later in the game to have us reconsidered for lynching. That’s not something they’d be able to do with peace considering how obviously townie he’d be. Alternatively, in the unlikely case that shadowsedge is mafia they could potentially use this pool to try and gain town credit.

So in short, from my perspective shadowsedge is the only person in the pool who has a chance of being mafia, albeit a chance I consider small. Currently, I think the only thing that would change my mind is if it becomes obvious that peace is actually scum and this is the mafia trying to get rid of him before he does too much damage to them.

Yeah champ? The chance of you and ShadowsEdge being Mafia is small? What made you come to such a conclusion, especially considering ShadowsEdge hasn't even posted yet before you posted?

I think not.

Pool composition. My conclusion on the pool composition being meme-y makes me believe it is unlikely that there is any mafia in the pool. You're more than welcome to disagree with the logic. It is, after all, a theory backed by no solid evidence. The shading of me you have surrounding your disagreement is completely unnecessary.

I had forgotten about this and it already makes me reconsider my stance. With both shadowsedge and peace looking so obviously townie I’m starting to think that perhaps the intention of this pool was to have me lynched.

What someone rolled before this life should have nothing to do with what people have rolled now. Don't pin this on something we can't even prove.

What someone rolled before this life matters when they declare it in this game and claim it's changed in a way that looks honest. Again, you're welcome to disagree with my conclusion. However, do you think ShadowsEdge is mafia? Because if you have no reason to believe that he is then you also have no reason to disagree with my conclusion even if you think my logic is flawed.

Onjit very well could have decided to leave because he was no longer town.

Okay. Do you believe this? If so, why? If not, then why do you feel the need to bring up something you don't even agree with in order to try and discredit my read?

Let me be 100% clear with y'all on something. The prime strategy for the Mafia to take would be to always place Town members on the chopping block on even days, because it guarantees that they have less of a chance of dying.

Incorrect. This is by no means a prime strategy. Doing this risks exposing the mafia members. Deciding what ratio of town to scum to put into the pool operates as a risk/reward system. There's no set way to do it, no set amount of scum to put in the pool that's optimal. Sure, always putting only town in the pool would be the prime strategy if the town were brain dead, but that simply isn't the case. Later on in this post you act like it's the intelligent thing to do that only experienced players would think of to put 1 or 2 scum in the pool but that simply isn't the case. Any half-decent scum would know that they should be nominating themselves.

Knowing this, it's very likely that all three players on the chopping block are town,

If you believe this, why do you criticise me for coming to this conclusion? Especially when you're clearly of the mindset that I'd think 3 town in the scum pool is the optimal way for the scum to play. This isn't actually what I think, but the fact that you believed it was calls into question why you didn't then think that this could be my reason for thinking that all the people in the pool are town.

Mutant started out today immediately playing the bus game.

By making it explicitly clear that I think everyone in the pool is town but that I still have to vote for one of them?

He has made very few arguments for why he thinks any one of the particular candidates are townie.

Just to re-emphasise, why would you not assume this?:

Mutant are very experienced Mafia players. They would know the optimal strategy to take in this game as a Mafia member.

The prime strategy for the Mafia to take would be to always place Town members on the chopping block on even days

it isn't fair to just write off ShadowsEdge as town solely because of this.

It isn't fair on who? Why am I not allowed to form a read based on something that very clearly implicates Shadow as town, do you expect me to just ignore it?

Mutant, while I would certainly like to believe that you aren't Mafia,

This isn't the impression I get from the way you've analysed my posts.

Also, could you explain to me why this:

I believe 1T2S pool is very unlikely

Is a reasonable thing to say without an explanation where you don't feel the need to ask for one, but this:

in the unlikely case that shadowsedge is mafia

Is unacceptable without elaboration and requires an explanation as to why it's unlikely.

In both instances, we are simply giving theories about what we personally believe is or isn't likely yet only one of them bothers you. 

Y'see, what you've just done is you've gone through my posts and over-criticised every aspect of them you could find. You did this intentionally and with a greater level of aggression than what you usually display in mafia and I want to know why. What was the motivation behind your post? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think you've formed any reads based on your close analysis of my post which begs the question, what was the point? You hint towards thinking that both I and Shadow could be scum but you don't commit to it. Instead, your analysis of my post aims to discredit almost everything I had to say and shade me along the way. In the process, you establish principles that you then don't stick to. You then lay out several possibilities as to what could be the case but you don't really give your opinion on which you think it is (if your criticisms of me are anything to go by then it would appear that you don't think people should be making any conclusions on these theories at all).

Basically, what I'm trying to ask is: why should I, or anyone else for that matter, not scum read you for this post by you when your aim was seemingly not to form your own reads but rather discredit mine?

I can't believe I just spent an hour and a half responding to you when I could have been in bed by now.

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mutantdevle

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

for day 3 i woudl look back into the poeple who voted kirbykareem esp kira hammering so quickly a newbie who doesnt have expeirence in defending themselves

I don't really think there's anything useful we could get from the kirbykareem wagon. The difference between town policy lynching and opportunistic scum is almost indistinguishable and I don't think anybody here would be capable of making conclusions on it that would yield better than just randomly guessing.

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mutantdevle

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

You are 1 of 3 people on the chopping block today. I do not trust you and expect that none of the rest of the town does either. That being said, since you are one of the most competent players here, alongside being on the chopping block, I'm going to be reading every single word you say and dissecting it. I'm not going to let you get away with writing long **** posts and expecting them to make you look townie anymore, not like you've done in some previous games.

People haven't been automatically town reading me for long posts for quite a while now.

My issue remains that your excessive dissection of my posts does not seem like it is in good faith. If you were drawing conclusions then I'd understand your purpose behind it but at best you are dissecting for simply the sake of dissecting.

I expected peace to be in the lynch pool because it's the meme-y thing to do. It's basically a free misslynch for the mafia.
I expected myself to be in the lynch pool because, again, it's a meme-y thing to do. Furthermore, putting a player who is unlikely to be lynched in the lynch pool focusses the lynch onto the other 2 players.

I expected us both to be in the lynch pool because, yet again, that's the meme thing to do. This forum is inherently meme-y. Wouldn't it be funny if the player people consider to be the strongest is in the same pool as the player who is considered to be the weakest?

When you put it like this, it's like you didn't even think about the selections. Assuming you, Shadow, and Peace are town, then the Mafia would sect you three deliberately. There is a very clear difference between the way you all play. The natural thing to do is to lynch Peace because he is the least valuable player (as again, you and Shadow both already pointed out). This is obvious. This is something everyone in the room is thinking. It's too obvious. The point of something like this is to make people second-guess themselves, and to lynch either you or Shadow instead, clearly more valuable players. This is all assuming that all three of you are town, which as I've said before, is possible, but is not the only possibility.

When I describe the selection as meme-y, I don't mean that it wasn't deliberate. They obviously made the choice intentionally and with their win condition in mind. Perhaps instead of using an adjective to describe why I considered it a strong possibility that peace and I would be in the lynch pool is as simple as I just think they would. I consider it a typical thing that people on these forums would do. I can't point to anything specific that would prove this but this thought is based on my experience both with this forum and specifically with mafia on this forum. It's intuition. And clearly my intuition is quite good because it turns out I was right.

As I clearly stated, I had been thinking on the idea that myself and peace would be in the starting pool before the day even started. Why then is it so hard to believe that I'd come to this conclusion as quickly as I did?

So, what you're saying is, because you thought the Mafia would meme around and decide to specifically pick you and Peace and put you two as the only candidates for today, that that instantly clears you and Peace of all charges of being Mafia for today? Absolutely not. You're smarter than that, Mutant.

Peace? Yes. Me? No. I've not said for a single second that this clears me as town; you're putting words in my mouth at this point.

In fact, why do you even think it's so hard to come to instant conclusions, is that something you don't consider possible?

I never said that it was hard to come to instant conclusions. It's especially likely for newer players to come to instant conclusions based off of singular pieces of evidence. You are not a new or inexperienced player at all, nor do you have any evidence to suggest that they were even meming around when selecting you and Peace to begin with.

Why does experience affect how quickly you can come to conclusions? Surely all it affects is how accurate your conclusions may be. To be honest, I'd argue that someone is likely to come to conclusions quicker with more experience.

My logic behind believing that peace and I would be in the pool together relies on the basis that the mafia are memeing. Aka they're not taking the pool too seriously. Hence, that naturally extends to the third candidate making it more likely that the third candidate is also town.

So I guess what I said earlier is true.

There is no evidence to suggest that the Mafia are making around, and I've already described some tangible benefits for the Mafia that could explain exactly why they chose who they did. Not only did I do this in this post, but also my earlier superpost.

And as I have made clear also in both posts, my belief is based on my theory. You need to shut down any conclusions in concerning.

peace only even ends up in the lynch pool when he is town. As mafia, peace would be incredibly obvious. He'd be lynched very quickly if put into the pool. Then, forcing town to lynch peace on a day where we have full control of the lynch is obviously better for the mafia than wasting him in a pool lynch. For this reason, peace simply being in the pool made me conclude he was town. If you have any reason to believe scum would put scum!peace in the lynch pool then I'd love to hear it.

I will describe to you again why I think Peace is not 100% in the clear: His teammates. Peace's teammates are guaranteed already well aware the kind of player Peace is (considering Kareem is confirmed not to be scum, anyway), and may possibly have convinced Peace to take up this plan, figuring that the town might second-guess themselves and choose to lynch you or Shadow.

Even if Peace was a townie, this does not clear you or Shadow. Do not tie yourself to him. You and him are two entirely separate players.

Again, my point is that I think it's highly unlikely that peace would ever be put into the pool if he was mafia. So because I think that would be unlikely, I think he is town. Why are you so insistent that I shouldn't be making those kinds of conclusions? You don't need to be 100% sure of something to make a conclusion.

And I've never said that peace being town makes me or shadow also town. What I'm saying is that based on the pool composition (everyone in the pool) I think it's likely that the pool is 100% town. If I was not in the pool, and it was just peace with 2 other random people, I'd definitely not be saying the pool is all town. Though, I'd probably still say that peace himself was town.

Was it? Please point out where I lied.

The part where you said it was going to take a lot of convincing for you to vote for peace. Turns out, it really did not take a lot of convincing.

This was my full quote:

Was it? Please point out where I lied. I made a statement, my statement turned out to be wrong. That's not lying, that's simply being wrong.

You've just clipped out the part where I explain the difference between a lie and a mistake to continue pushing your narrative that I lied. Shame on you.

The fact that you're trying to frame this as a lie is incredibly manipulative. Furthermore, you were given full context as to why my mind changed. I didn't recall Onjit's post when making my previous conclusion. When I realised this information, it affected my conclusion. What part of that do you have difficulty with? 

It would be, it it weren't actually a lie. You didn't even need anybody else to tell you anything, you just convinced yourself like 1 post later.

Are you serious?

since onjit allegedly opted out because hes not mafia anymore

I had forgotten about this and it already makes me reconsider my stance. With both shadowsedge and peace looking so obviously townie I’m starting to think that perhaps the intention of this pool was to have me lynched.

I very clearly reconsidered based on what TaskManager said.

Okay, what's your point? This is a fact that I'm very aware of and has no impact on anything I have said.

To point out that we don't have the same viewpoint as you, so if you want us to believe you, then you better explain why you come to the conclusions you do, rather than just saying the conclusions you have without any explanation. For example, you claimed that you and Peace were cleared. Why? Because you believe the Mafia to be making a meme, and don't take the nominations seriously (an explanation you had to give after the fact.) Of course, there is no evidence to even back up your claim, but that's besides the point.

I have already thoroughly explained why peace is cleared. At no point have I ever claimed that I myself am cleared. In fact, I explicitly pointed out that my arguments rely on me being town and that today for me could be about me convincing people I am town. The only explanation that is necessary for my theories is the trust that I am town because my opinions are just what I think. If you are looking for hard evidence to back up anything then that is exactly why you have not come to any conclusions and nor would you ever. You have to make assumptions in order to make conclusions, that's a basic principle of mafia.

As do you.

I can explain my conclusions with evidence. Where is yours?

Nothing you have said has contained any evidence. All you've done laid out possibilities and poked holes in what I have to say. Also, what conclusions are you talking about? You've not made any conclusions!

Do you disagree that I'm a player that's generally considered harder to lynch? What do you think would be the reason that mafia would put me in the pool assuming I am town? I find it hard to believe that you'd come to a conclusion that doesn't match mine.

1. Yes. You are not invincible to being lynched, Mutant.

That's not the point! I am harder to lynch than most players both because of my status and because of my ability to put up a fight. It's obviously not impossible to lynch me but that is not relevant. Pretty much everyone knows that and it is guaranteed to be in the mind of the mafia when targetting me for anything. Even you describe me as a strong player. Part of being a strong player is that you're harder to lynch.

2. I've already explained why. I've given multiple reasons why they would put town you with the others. People are going to be inclined to vote for Peace if you don't take alignment into account. Considering alignment possibilities, people can second-guess their decision to vote for Peace and instead opt to vote for either you or Shadow, instead. This is not something I say is happening right now, nor am I saying that it's 100% the truth, but it certainly is a strategy that could work if followed up with some kind of exposition. Another reason that I haven't yet given is that they could possibly be testing the waters. That is to say, they could be trying to gauge the town's reaction. Perhaps they want to see if people really will second-guess themselves, or possibly see how and what they can get away with for the next nomination stage.

So basically it could be WIFOM? You think the mafia would put me with peace banking on the idea that people would lynch me instead of him out of WIFOM? Sure, that is something that is possible, but do you really think that's likely? Do you really think that's the way that mafia would try to get me lynched?

3. Think about it from a perspective that isn't a town member's, then. Imagine you were a Mafia member. How would making the decision to put an alternative to town!you, Shadow, and Peace benefit the Mafia, given different alignments for each person? It is in this way that I think, and how I've come to the conclusions that I have. Consider, objectively, the pros and cons of the decision. Do not just assume that there are none, just because the decision confuses you.

I'm not sure what you're asking me here.

- Peace is likely to be lynched in any pool regardless of his alignment.
- Peace is very obvious when he is mafia.
- Putting peace in the scum pool as mafia almost guarantees his lynch.
- Even if the mafia wanted to get rid of scum!peace, they'd prefer that he be lynched when we can choose anyone rather than just handing him over when they get to choose who the lynch candidates are.
- Any half-decent mafia would realise this.

Point 1: Everyone knows how likely Peace is to get thrown under the bus, regardless of his alignment. We've already pretty much satisfied anyone's desire to policy lynch by policy lynching Kareem on day 1. The decision to put Peace as a nominee on night 2 alongside you and Shadow was deliberate. They could have chose me, or anyone else who was more experienced for that matter, but instead they selected Peace, and you seem to think that this was just something they did for ****'s and giggles?

I hope my explanation of intuition better serves this point.

Point 2: All Peace has done today is claim that I was suspicious for fighting for a Kareem lynch, and say Ele is suspicious for wooting all of my posts. After I reassured him that the only motivation was to policy lynch him, and after he (presumably) read my super post, he immediately believed(?) everything that I said and instantaneously voted to lynch you, without giving any of my posts another second thought. Sounds like he's hopping beliefs to me.

I don't see how what peace has done today has any relevance to my point. My point is that peace looks obviously scum when he is scum. Unless you're trying to argue that you're scum reading peace based on his behaviour today? Because even if peace does become obviously scum by the end of today that doesn't disprove my logic that disproves my conclusion. It would perfectly highlight why mafia putting mafia!peace in the pool would be a stupid thing to do and would make me reconsider my stance on Shadow. I'd still be justified in town reading peace and I am perfectly happy to be wrong here.

Point 3 and 4: Given, and I'm not saying that Peace is 100% a member of the Mafia. But don't 100% assume that Peace is 100% town, either. This is (likely) what the Mafia want you to think.

Why am I not allowed to conclude that peace is town? Why is that something that bothers you? I'm not 100% assuming anything about peace I've just settled on the conclusion that he is town.

Also, do you have any evidence as to why you think the mafia are likely to want me to think peace is town?

Y'all seriously underestimate how valuable it is that peace can become psuedo-confirmed town.

Yeah, that would be valuable, if people don't end up lynching Peace today. Even if it is valuable, we can't just say Peace is town just because it is. Peace being town would be a useful explanation to why certain decisions are being made the way they are, but that certainly doesn't mean he 100% is town.

I'm not saying that peace would be town just because being obviously town is useful. He first of all would have to actually be obviously town. This argument that you're critiquing was about why I originally believed Shadow should be lynched instead of peace. I concluded they were both town under separate logic and then conclude that peace was more valuable to keep alive because of his ability to become psuedo-confirmed.

Contributing to the game is obviously helpful but means nothing if your reads are wrong.

Yet another reason the Mafia should theoretically want to leave Peace out of the first nominations, and yet they haven't.

Which is evidence that he is town.

On the other hand, when there's 1 less player we have to worry about trying to town read it makes finding and lynching mafia significantly and statistically easier.

This would be way easier to do if Peace were confirmed townie, but, again, none of you are confirmed town, so, yeah.

Yes, but typically there becomes a point in the game where peace is irrefutably town if he isn't lynched before then.

What someone rolled before this life matters when they declare it in this game and claim it's changed in a way that looks honest. Again, you're welcome to disagree with my conclusion. However, do you think ShadowsEdge is mafia? Because if you have no reason to believe that he is then you also have no reason to disagree with my conclusion even if you think my logic is flawed.

I don't know whether he is or not, but I do not want people to give him the benefit of the doubt just because of something Onjit said, and I don't want you to do that either. I want you all to think for yourselves. Let Shadow build up his own rapport.

Well tough, I'm not going to ignore it just because you want me to. If you really want us to think for ourselves then why have you spent several long posts telling me I'm not allowed to think the things I do?

Okay. Do you believe this? If so, why? If not, then why do you feel the need to bring up something you don't even agree with in order to try and discredit my read?

I do believe this, actually. Personally, I wouldn't put it past Onjit to lie about it if he turned Mafia. Asking for a replacement is a strategy that was already tried, that one game I was SK. It worked for Slabdrill because I did not suspect him, even though it didn't matter in the end.

Just to clarify, you are saying that Shadow is mafia? I can't tell if you just saying "I do believe this" is you saying you think it is theoretically possible (which is not what I was asking about since that's irrelevant).

Incorrect. This is by no means a prime strategy. Doing this risks exposing the mafia members.

Unless the Mafia members... draw no special attention to themselves? You think they'd go around waving big signs saying "hey look, we aren't a part of the pool, so vote for us!

But really, think about it. Every even numbered day, the Mafia vote for three candidates. Assuming all candidates are town, this means that the Mafia will be guaranteed 3 kills every day, whereas on odd-numbered days, there is no guarantee that we'll hit a Mafia member at all. In fact, the nominees from the round prior are still up to question, too. The mere act of nominating someone puts then under a spotlight and forces the town to look at that person. If someone survives, then that person is still going to be looked at even when they aren't a nominee anymore. Even if Peace is lynched today, this does not clear you or Shadow at all.

If we mislynch today, then it is likely because all three nominees were town. If we mislynch tomorrow, then we've just given the Mafia an extra kill. Lynches on odd-numbered days are really important, because they are likely the only days where we can lynch a Mafia member. Assuming the Mafia only nominates town members, and replaces lynched nominees with new town members every even-numbered day, this means that the Mafia are getting a free kill every other day, while also not giving the town much information at all.

Deciding what ratio of town to scum to put into the pool operates as a risk/reward system. There's no set way to do it, no set amount of scum to put in the pool that's optimal. Sure, always putting only town in the pool would be the prime strategy if the town were brain dead, but that simply isn't the case. Later on in this post you act like it's the intelligent thing to do that only experienced players would think of to put 1 or 2 scum in the pool but that simply isn't the case. Any half-decent scum would know that they should be nominating themselves.

The optimal amount of scum to nominate is 0, because there is 0% chance scum will flip. Simple as that.

This is an incredibly narrow-minded way of looking at it. Do you not understand that the more town the scum put in the pool inherently increases the chance that the scum players would be scum read by the other players? Put it this way, in a normal game of mafia, do you think it would be optimal for the scum team to never bus or vote for each other or paint each other in a negative way? Of course not! Theoretically, this would give them the best chance of winning because it reduces the number of players willing to vote for them or encouraging votes on them. But it just doesn't work out that way as the scum members would become suspected together. Bussing is part of the game as it makes other scum members look townie. The optimal strategy for any scum team (in almost any game) would be to get one of their scum team so town read that the town never lynches them. There are 2 ways of achieving this that I think would be far more effective strategies than simply putting all town in the pool every night. First of all, they could get a scum member town read by putting 2 (or even 3) mafia in the same pool and have that player town read off the back of the other scum player's lynch. Secondly, they could put one of their scum members in the pool every single time in order to make them look townie. However, since the scum's ability to survive in a lynch pool highly depends on how town read they are compared to other members in the pool there isn't actually any set optimal formula on how many scum to put in the pool - instead, it is entirely circumstantial. So I'm sorry, but you are just fundamentally wrong.   

If you believe this, why do you criticise me for coming to this conclusion? Especially when you're clearly of the mindset that I'd think 3 town in the scum pool is the optimal way for the scum to play. This isn't actually what I think, but the fact that you believed it was calls into question why you didn't then think that this could be my reason for thinking that all the people in the pool are town.

Mutant, I'm actually disappointed in you for not coming to this conclusion. I am of the mindset that 3 town in the nominees is the optimal way for scum to play. This ensures that no scum are going to die that night. In two days from now, it will be easy for them to place you and Shadow in the pool again, this time picking a different townie member in replacement for Peace (assuming he gets lynched tonight.)

And here you have totally ignored my point.

If you think the optimal strategy is to put 3 town in the pool. And you think I would be fully aware of this. Why did you question the fact that I considered all 3 players in the pool to be town? You did not know at the time that this wasn't my reason for thinking this. Yet you criticised me with seemingly full confidence that I had no reason to be town reading the entire pool. If you genuinely believe all this, and it's not just stuff you made up on the spot in order to criticise my post, why is it that this wasn't something that crossed your mind as to my potential reasoning?

By making it explicitly clear that I think everyone in the pool is town but that I still have to vote for one of them?

Fair, but your reasons for clearing them are certainly not sound. They have no evidence behind them.

If you honestly expect sound evidence behind every conclusion then you are playing the wrong game.

It isn't fair on who? Why am I not allowed to form a read based on something that very clearly implicates Shadow as town, do you expect me to just ignore it?

I do not expect you to ignore it, but I certainly hope you don't plan on basing your entire read on Shadow on something he didn't even post. Giving him the benefit of the doubt opens him up to being town-cleared, something that should not even be possible in this game. This is unfair for Mafia assuming town!Shadow and unfair for the town assuming scum!Shadow, because nobody is supposed to be cleared.

Again, Onjit's post is not the entire basis for my town read on shadow. But it is the basis on which I think it's better to lynch peace than shadow.

You say he'd be town-cleared from it as though you believe that Onjit's post makes him confirmed town but that you just don't want to listen to it. Being confident enough in my town read to consider them lock-town is by no means a 'clear'.

Also, could you explain to me why this:

TaskManager wrote:
I believe 1T2S pool is very unlikely

Is a reasonable thing to say without an explanation where you don't feel the need to ask for one, but this:

mutantdevle wrote:
in the unlikely case that shadowsedge is mafia

Is unacceptable without elaboration and requires an explanation as to why it's unlikely.

In both instances, we are simply giving theories about what we personally believe is or isn't likely yet only one of them bothers you. 

TaskManager's theory isn't based off of a hunch. The Mafia giving the town a 66% chance to lynch one of their own is not optimal, no matter how you flavor it.

You are assuming that 3 town in the pool every day is the optimal. You have no evidence for it. So, therefore, saying that it's unlikely that there'd be 2 scum in the pool is also assuming it's not possible. There is no evidence in any of this it's purely theory and speculation. (Note: this is not something that I'm criticising Task for).

Y'see, what you've just done is you've gone through my posts and over-criticised every aspect of them you could find

Yep, because you're on the chopping block, and I don't trust a single person on the chopping block, so if I hope to make the right decision and influence others to making the right decision, I damn better. I would do the same to Shadow and Peace too if they had actually given me something to work with.

You probably should have used this reasoning for the previous instead of trying to say that your theory is somehow evidence when mine is not.

But your analysis is pointless! You're not achieving anything. You're offering nothing new yourself. All you've done is repeated your mantra that you want people to think for themselves whilst simultaneously telling me what to think and implying that no one should listen to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think you've formed any reads based on your close analysis of my post

I haven't, yet.

So what is the point?

What was the motivation behind your post?

what was the point?

To give people my own thoughts, and to try to steer them into the direction of thinking for thenselves.

Your thoughts offer nothing new. If you have to tell people to think for themselves then they're obviously not thinking for themselves. What you've done is laid out the different possibilities, told people they shouldn't agree with me, and then offered no alternatively viewpoint.

You hint towards thinking that both I and Shadow could be scum but you don't commit to it.

Yeah, I hint at the possibility with what's given, but I'm not confident enough to pin Mafia on either one of you, given the chances that none of you are, so why would I?

What was the point of mentioning it? Also, given that you agree that the chances everyone is in the pool is town, why are you criticising me for coming to same conclusion and why aren't you willing to commit to reading us as town?

Instead, your analysis of my post aims to discredit almost everything I had to say and shade me along the way.

Okay, if you haven't noticed, you're one of the three being nominated for a lynch right now, so what you say kind of really matters. I have no qualms with investigating your logic to ensure the right decision is made and I hope none of the rest of the town has a problem with that either.

Why is me being in the pool a reason to discredit everything I have to say? Is your point that since I'm in the pool nothing I say is worthy of any trust and that you should just ignore my opinions? Investigate my logic, sure. **** all over it, claim it's baseless, accuse me of lying, and shade me every chance you get? That's not simple investigating. You clearly have other motives.

In the process, you establish principles that you then don't stick to.

What are those principles? That the most likely scenario is that all three of you are town? I certainly have not given up that possibility at any point. If not, then I'd like to hear your explanation on this.

When I say "don't stick to" I guess I kinda mean 'contradict'. The fact that you think the most likely case is that all 3 of us are town, but then won't commit to any reads and criticise me for coming to same the same conclusion with different logic would suggest that your principle doesn't apply when it comes to criticism. Similarly, you're criticising me for not having any evidence behind my theories when your theory that the optimal scum strategy is to put 3 town in the lynch pool is not backed by evidence either.

You then lay out several possibilities as to what could be the case but you don't really give your opinion on which you think it is (if your criticisms of me are anything to go by then it would appear that you don't think people should be making any conclusions on these theories at all).

The theories are just that: theories. I want people to think for themselves with what I have given. I don't want to tell people how to think and what decisions to make. I want them to make their own conclusions, and possibly catch and fix any problems with my own. And, your thinking that I am targeting you is right, but not for the right reason. You are simply the only person here with any motivations to speak of. Neither Shadow nor peace have come up with anything worth this kind of analysis, in my opinion. It is not because I think you are Mafia. If you disagree, and think that there is something in their posts that can be taken apart, then feel free.

The fact that you are shutting down my own theories every chance you get would suggest that you don't want people to think for themselves because clearly you don't want them to agree with me. Laying out the different possibilities is pointless, do you really think people are incapable of thinking about them for themselves. It honestly just strikes me as if you are trying to look like you are contributing without actually doing so.

Basically, what I'm trying to ask is: why should I, or anyone else for that matter, not scum read you for this post by you when your aim was seemingly not to form your own reads but rather discredit mine?

1. If I was a scum, I would not be trying nearly as hard to solve this game.

Sure, let me just take your word for it.

2. I am behaving much differently than I ever have in any games previous to this, as you suggest. I have been town in a few games. I was always killed within the first few days. The last game I was town, I was killed for doing nothing but **** on night 1, something I've never done before at all. The time before that, I was only trying to not draw so much attention to myself, and even said that I was okay with dying if it gave the town more information. That did not work out. So, I'm trying out this new thing. I hope you consider it as constructive as I do.

If you are genuinely town here, then no, I do not consider this constructive because it ultimately achieves nothing. But I'm not going to take your word for it that this is simply a new playstyle until you've used it in multiple games.

3. If I was scum, then why am I offering what I think the most optimal scum strategies for this gametype so publicly? I certainly would not share my strategies and thoughts this extensively considering how little anything I have posted on this night helps the Mafia in any way.
4. Because my posts intend to get people thinking, to get people talking, and hopefully to allow us to get more reads on other players, too.

You'd do both of these things as scum to look like town. Scum don't just look like scum.

I was hoping that your answer to this question would be an explanation as to the town motivation behind you criticising and pulling apart my posts in the way that you are. But so far you've not provided an adequate explanation as to the purpose of your posting.

(I guess this is a TLDR)

Crybaby, if you are town here, then I feel that perhaps you have not understood as to how I've got to the conclusions that I have. So let me spell it out for you:
- I considered it a possibility during the night that peace and I would be in the pool together, or at the very least, one of us would be (favouring peace). I believed this based on my own intuition.
- Upon learning I was correct, I figured that the 3rd person would also likely be town as I found it unlikely that the mafia would put one of their own in a pool with peace and I. (again, intuition).
- I believed that peace should be the one to keep alive because him becoming obvious town from his posting was more valuable to me than shadow's contributions as I did not believe that my conclusion of the 3rd person being town was completely foolproof.
- The only thing that I thought would make me reconsider my stance was if it became obvious that peace was mafia and that my intuition was actually ultimately wrong. I believe peace should be read on an "assume he's town until it's clear he's not" basis especially in light of him being in the pool.
- I then noticed TaskManager's post where he mentions Onjit's claim. This, combined with my opinion on the pool being all town, gave me enough confidence in my town read on shadow to consider it just as unlikely to be wrong as my read on peace.
- Hence, with Shadow and peace both looking as equally townie as each other, the obvious action to take is to instead lynch peace as he no longer has that advantage over shadow that I considered him to have originally.

Now here's why I scum read you Crybaby:
- You have stated that you also think that the pool is likely to be all town.
- This means that you agree with my conclusion but not with my reasoning.
- You then attack and try to disprove my reasoning.
- As town, you'd have no reason to do this. So what if my logic is flawed? It results in the same reads as you.
- Why would you try to debate me on my reads if you agree with my reads?
- All of your comments towards my theories seem to be made with the intention of either trying to get me to reconsider my reads / have anyone reading the argument think I'm scum for the way I've formed my reads.
- Why would you want me to reconsider my reads if you agree with them?
- Why would you want people to think I'm scum if you think I'm town?
- If you didn't agree with my reads, and instead thought that Shadow or peace were mafia, then I'd understand you trying to deconstruct my opinion to this level. But at the moment, based on what you've said of your own opinions, you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
- You've seemingly picked up a mantra that you want people to think for themselves so you provide them with theories that you don't believe in (things they can easily think about themselves without you needing to point them out).
- It's like you don't want people to come to the same conclusion that you did.
- This LAMIST approach of "I'm not influencing people's opinions!" just looks like attempts to look busy and contribute to the game without really adding anything.
- Everything you've done just feels like a setup to put enough doubt into Shadow and I that after today's lynch it would be reasonable to still consider us for lynches later on.

Note that although you have not explicitly stated you town read me, peace or Shadow, your belief that the pool being all town is the optimal way to play for scum and hence what the mafia have most likely done would suggest that you do. And you have not explicitly said that any of us are scum either.

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mutantdevle

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

▼Hidden text

How do you know that you are correct, or how did you learn that you are? This is a legitimate question, not an attack. Because if there is some sort of pool of evidence that you're drawing from, then I would love to study it. Unless that was just a figure of speech, in which case, I will ignore the first sentence.

You say that intuition led you to believe the Mafia would not put one of their own as a nominee with you and Peace. This is another conclusion I find oddly specific. Given that it's based off of intuition, I don't think that conclusion is foolproof- you don't either.

I was referring to being correct about both I and peace being in the lynch pool. I don't think that mafia would put themselves in a pool with myself and peace because I don't think that the mindset of putting us in a pool together also leads to putting one of your own in the pool.

I'm going to ignore that I don't agree with the evidence that otherwise townclears Shadow for a bit. There still isn't any super solid evidence that confirms you as town, aside from the likeliest scenario in my opinion that the nominees today are all town. Again, my disagreement on Onjit's intentions aside, you're the greatest unknown in this scenario. Besides intuitions, there has been nothing to grasp to gain a solid read on you until our discussion picked up.

Assuming you're issue with trying to read me based on my theories is that you can't reliably tell if my intuition is genuine or just made up. Instead, think about what motivation I'd have as either alignment for the explanations that I've given. As mafia why would I make this stuff up?

You ever come across a weird instance in a math test where you use the incorrect formula to solve a problem, but by chance, you get the right answer anyway? This is why I attacked and tried to disprove your reasoning.

I don't think the maths analogy is relevant considering in school showing the workings out is a vital part of getting marks/grades and in professional application proving it the correct way is part of getting it accepted. In mafia that simply does not matter; only whether or not the conclusion is mafia getting lynched is the important bit (not to mention that maths is a process of right as wrong whereas mafia is about subjectivity). And none of this really justifies you approaching my opinions the way you did. What I'd expect from someone who is town who disagrees with my logic but agrees with my conclusion is a simple statement expressing disagreement and, optionally, a desire to understand my thought process. Though that seems to be the way you are approaching it now, your original approach was to dismantle every aspect of my words that you could and shade me for it.   

I think that it is flawed, and even though we come to the same conclusions today, that does not mean we will come to the same conclusions in the future.

Nothing about your original post would suggest this was your motivation. You were clearly not trying to empathise with me and make sure our logic was consistent with each other; you were blatantly trying to discredit me.

Mutant, you're a strong player, wouldn't you say? You have a lot of outstanding experience in this game. Your words are a lot more easier to trust, because they come from someone who has experience in the game. Perhaps, even, people might try to emulate your playstyle to better themselves at the game. I don't want people to mindlessly just take your logic and reasoning at face value and believe it as if they are rules or something like that. I provided my own alternative viewpoint. It is not up to me to decide if people believe it or not. Some already seem to, some seem to disbelieve it. It's more like I'm checking you.

You must think pretty lowly of everyone here's intelligence to think that they'd be taking everything I have to say at face value. It's not necessary for you to tell everyone that they should be reading into everything I have to say rather than just accepting it since that's the whole point of the game and nobody here is new. Furthermore, there's a difference between simply checking my logic and **** all over it like you did. It's like the difference between pointing out a computer is broken vs taking it apart to show everyone all the broken pieces (and stamping on them in the process).

I am trying to debate you on your logic.

Why? What is your motivation behind that and why is that motivation townie?

I am trying to get you to reconsider the process you used to acquire your reads. Your leans today just so happen to be the same as mine, so why would I tell others to scum read you for them when they're the same? I'm trying to debate with your logic.

Please tell me how this list of quotes is you trying to get me to reconsider the process I used to acquire my reads:

▼Aggressive Quotes

Oh, really? Is that so?

Well, that was a **** lie.

Really? Because we don't.

You've gots a lots of 'splainin' to do Mr. Mutant.

You aren't so hard to lynch anymore, Mutant. If you make yourself out to be the scummiest player in a game like this, where a lynch is required every single day, then it's very likely that you can die, so don't be so reckless.

Explain.

Yeah champ?

I think not.

Mutant started out today immediately playing the bus game.

they have weakly argued

it's like you didn't even think about the selections.

Absolutely not. You're smarter than that, Mutant.

Do not tie yourself to him. You and him are two entirely separate players.

I can explain my conclusions with evidence. Where is yours?

Most of what you said to me was either emotively-aggressive, passive-aggressive or, at times, condescending. What part of that is you trying to help me better my logic? You also label my logic as scummy and use adjectives like 'weak' to describe it. Stop pretending that you're somehow being neutral as to 'not tell people what to think' because you are certainly implying what they should be thinking about my opinions.

That does sound reasonable. Living today does not clear you of all charges. We have had instances in past Mafia games where someone who was high-profile before a deciding lynch lived to see the next day, and then something happened that took the town's attention away from that person, and then the high-profile that person had attained was suddenly forgotten. It's happened with TaskManager and (ironically) Shadow within memory. I said on day 1 that just being nominated does not town clear you. If it wasn't fairly obvious, living an even-numbered night doesn't town clear you either. So, I have no problem with this point you made at all.

My point is that it feels like you're actively wanting people to think we could be mafia rather than just saying it shouldn't be ruled out.

I think Onjit's story is a burning pile of ash.

What makes you say this? Why would you think Onjit would lie and also replace out of a game just so that the scum team would win without him?

Finally, I'm also interested in why your approach towards me has changed from aggressive shading to being more diplomatic?

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mutantdevle

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

I can't I just spent 20 minutes on catching Peace's errors.

So why did you?

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mutantdevle

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

TaskManager what is it about my opening posts this game that you suspect is scum motivated?

Also, I'd like to point out that Kira's iso is trash and I'd probably lynch him before Crybaby if he doesn't post anything substantial.

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mutantdevle

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

Again, it's how you rushed the voting at the start of a day

I'm trying to establish what exactly about that you find scummy though?

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mutantdevle

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

Alright I'm done with today's exam which means I should be able to contribute.

So why aren't you?

Are you waiting for us to give you something to comment on? Because if you currently have nothing to say then that's kinda worrying.

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mutantdevle

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

I don't like how you started bussing/pushing a wagon on both of them without even waiting for either of them to say anything

I didn't push either wagon. I simply placed my vote whilst stating my logic. A 50/50 decision was very easy for me to make.

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mutantdevle

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

I don't like how you started bussing/pushing a wagon on both of them without even waiting for either of them to say anything

I didn't push either wagon. I simply placed my vote whilst stating my logic. A 50/50 decision was very easy for me to make.

Uhh
If placing a vote doesn't count as pushing the wagon, then I don't know what does

Pushing a wagon is when you're actively trying to get people to join you on the wagon. At no point did I ever try to encourage others to join me on either shadow or peace. If people voted peace because of the things that I was saying then that's not me pushing the wagon that'd be them jumping on because they agree with me. I took a far more passive approach.

I also still don't understand what you perceive the scum motivation to be behind deciding who I wanted to lynch quite quickly. Is there something you find inherently scummy about coming to quick decisions? If your issue is with that I didn't wait for them to post before voting then the important thing to note is that my reads on each of them had nothing to do with their posts.

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mutantdevle

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

!vote Kira

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mutantdevle

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

Shadow for the record your reasons for finding me scummy are embarrassingly stupid.

Is anyone else willing to vote Kira? Because if not then I guess I'm forced to join NoNK on Zelda in order to survive.

> Mutant hasn't been trying to solve the game.

Not true.

The only clear suspicion he's had against anyone is against Crybaby/NoNK.

Not true.

Mutant isn't acting on his suspicion of Crybaby/NoNK and instead offered a counterlynch against someone who he only has a hunch against.

Kinda true.

Mutant has a connection to Crybaby/NoNK with the BS argument on D2, and since I find Crybaby/NoNK suspicious, by the connection in their regard, I therefore find Mutant suspicious.

I find it completely hilarious that you think I'd use this method to create distance between myself and a scum partner rather than something much more efficient that I wouldn't have to waste hours of my life on.

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mutantdevle

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

To be honest Shadow I find your comments towards me somewhat insulting. I agree with you that Crybaby's actions achieved nothing. I was constantly mentioning that to him throughout our argument; you've even paraphrased me in criticising him for it - and it was part of the reason why I found his actions so scummy. But to suggest that I got nothing out of it was just ludicrous.

You clearly hold my scum ability in too high of a regard if you think that I'd spend so much of my time actively questioning Crybaby like I have done. Here's a fun fact for you, at no point did I ever properly conclude Crybaby was scum (though I wanted him to think that I had). Despite the amount of scummy **** he said he had a lot of townie stuff in their too. Because of that, I wanted to continue questioning him until I was sure that he was scum. Meanwhile, I wanted to place my vote somewhere useful. Voting Crybaby before I've reached a conclusion just for the sake of appearances is not useful. Because my scum read of Kira isn't based on his words but rather his lack of content, voting is the only thing I can do to prompt said content. As of yet he hasn't done anything townie so I have no reason to remove my vote from him.

Also, if you haven't noticed, Crybaby and I weren't finished when he replaced out. Our debate was cut short and the replacement entirely **** up trying to resolve my read because NoNK can't answer for Crybaby. So the choice I'm then faced with is then to either make my conclusion with questions still in my head that I'll never have answered or essentially restart my read and give NoNK a chance. For now I'm ignoring my opinion of Crybaby in order to form a new read on NoNK, but that's not to say I won't use Crybaby's actions to form a final read on the slot later on.

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mutantdevle

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From: Hell

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

!vote Zelda

I want to make it clear that yes, this vote is primarily motivated by my will to survive. I don't currently have a read on Zelda either way. There's about 10 hours left in the day and I plan to go to bed soon. By the time I wake up the day will likely be over.

If I'm mislynched twice in a row on the same setup for reasons I consider fundamentally stupid then I'm actually going to be so **** ****.

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mutantdevle

Moderation Team

From: Hell

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

Pedit:

I was writing my post before Task's so my intention was to tie the votes not put it in favour of Zelda dying. That said, I'm not unvoting.

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mutantdevle

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From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

I town read Shadow, Task and Tofuu.

I strongly scum read Kira.

Zelda and Slabdrill are firm null reads.

If either NoNK or eleizibeth flips scum the other is town. By default I consider them both null.

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mutantdevle

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From: Hell

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

Mutant what do you think about Kira and the Kira wagon?

If the day required a full majority to go through then I'd still be voting Kira. He is my strongest scum read especially considering after my vote on him he continued to do nothing before opportunistically vote for me.

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mutantdevle

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From: Hell

Joined: 2015-03-31

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

actually the question still stands

also vote count pls noobroy <3

I voted Zelda simply because I don't want to die. Like I say, if the ruleset was majority and not popularity I'd still be voting Kira. But I can't vote Kira if I'm lynched.

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mutantdevle

Moderation Team

From: Hell

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

Dear god shadow you sound like Crybaby

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mutantdevle

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Re: Mafia 35 game thread [MAFIA WINS] (GAME OVER)

then you should surely be able to provide instances where you have been trying to solve the game, right?

I sure do:

▼Hidden text

Do you disagree that I'm a player that's generally considered harder to lynch? What do you think would be the reason that mafia would put me in the pool assuming I am town?

Why then is it so hard to believe that I'd come to this conclusion as quickly as I did? In fact, why do you even think it's so hard to come to instant conclusions, is that something you don't consider possible?

Was it? Please point out where I lied.

Okay, what's your point?

However, do you think ShadowsEdge is mafia?

Okay. Do you believe this? If so, why? If not, then why do you feel the need to bring up something you don't even agree with in order to try and discredit my read?

If you believe this, why do you criticise me for coming to this conclusion? Especially when you're clearly of the mindset that I'd think 3 town in the scum pool is the optimal way for the scum to play. This isn't actually what I think, but the fact that you believed it was calls into question why you didn't then think that this could be my reason for thinking that all the people in the pool are town.

It isn't fair on who? Why am I not allowed to form a read based on something that very clearly implicates Shadow as town, do you expect me to just ignore it?

What was the motivation behind your post? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think you've formed any reads based on your close analysis of my post which begs the question, what was the point?

Basically, what I'm trying to ask is: why should I, or anyone else for that matter, not scum read you for this post by you when your aim was seemingly not to form your own reads but rather discredit mine?

Why does experience affect how quickly you can come to conclusions? Surely all it affects is how accurate your conclusions may be.

Why are you so insistent that I shouldn't be making those kinds of conclusions?

You've just clipped out the part where I explain the difference between a lie and a mistake to continue pushing your narrative that I lied. Shame on you.

So basically it could be WIFOM? You think the mafia would put me with peace banking on the idea that people would lynch me instead of him out of WIFOM? Sure, that is something that is possible, but do you really think that's likely? Do you really think that's the way that mafia would try to get me lynched?

I don't see how what peace has done today has any relevance to my point. My point is that peace looks obviously scum when he is scum. Unless you're trying to argue that you're scum reading peace based on his behaviour today?

Why am I not allowed to conclude that peace is town? Why is that something that bothers you? I'm not 100% assuming anything about peace I've just settled on the conclusion that he is town.

Also, do you have any evidence as to why you think the mafia are likely to want me to think peace is town?

If you really want us to think for ourselves then why have you spent several long posts telling me I'm not allowed to think the things I do?

If you think the optimal strategy is to put 3 town in the pool. And you think I would be fully aware of this. Why did you question the fact that I considered all 3 players in the pool to be town? You did not know at the time that this wasn't my reason for thinking this. Yet you criticised me with seemingly full confidence that I had no reason to be town reading the entire pool. If you genuinely believe all this, and it's not just stuff you made up on the spot in order to criticise my post, why is it that this wasn't something that crossed your mind as to my potential reasoning?

So what is the point?

What was the point of mentioning it? Also, given that you agree that the chances everyone is in the pool is town, why are you criticising me for coming to same conclusion and why aren't you willing to commit to reading us as town?

Why is me being in the pool a reason to discredit everything I have to say? Is your point that since I'm in the pool nothing I say is worthy of any trust and that you should just ignore my opinions? Investigate my logic, sure. **** all over it, claim it's baseless, accuse me of lying, and shade me every chance you get? That's not simple investigating. You clearly have other motives.

I was hoping that your answer to this question would be an explanation as to the town motivation behind you criticising and pulling apart my posts in the way that you are. But so far you've not provided an adequate explanation as to the purpose of your posting.

▼Hidden text

How do you know that you are correct, or how did you learn that you are? This is a legitimate question, not an attack. Because if there is some sort of pool of evidence that you're drawing from, then I would love to study it. Unless that was just a figure of speech, in which case, I will ignore the first sentence.

You say that intuition led you to believe the Mafia would not put one of their own as a nominee with you and Peace. This is another conclusion I find oddly specific. Given that it's based off of intuition, I don't think that conclusion is foolproof- you don't either.

I was referring to being correct about both I and peace being in the lynch pool. I don't think that mafia would put themselves in a pool with myself and peace because I don't think that the mindset of putting us in a pool together also leads to putting one of your own in the pool.

I'm going to ignore that I don't agree with the evidence that otherwise townclears Shadow for a bit. There still isn't any super solid evidence that confirms you as town, aside from the likeliest scenario in my opinion that the nominees today are all town. Again, my disagreement on Onjit's intentions aside, you're the greatest unknown in this scenario. Besides intuitions, there has been nothing to grasp to gain a solid read on you until our discussion picked up.

Assuming you're issue with trying to read me based on my theories is that you can't reliably tell if my intuition is genuine or just made up. Instead, think about what motivation I'd have as either alignment for the explanations that I've given. As mafia why would I make this stuff up?

You ever come across a weird instance in a math test where you use the incorrect formula to solve a problem, but by chance, you get the right answer anyway? This is why I attacked and tried to disprove your reasoning.

I don't think the maths analogy is relevant considering in school showing the workings out is a vital part of getting marks/grades and in professional application proving it the correct way is part of getting it accepted. In mafia that simply does not matter; only whether or not the conclusion is mafia getting lynched is the important bit (not to mention that maths is a process of right as wrong whereas mafia is about subjectivity). And none of this really justifies you approaching my opinions the way you did. What I'd expect from someone who is town who disagrees with my logic but agrees with my conclusion is a simple statement expressing disagreement and, optionally, a desire to understand my thought process. Though that seems to be the way you are approaching it now, your original approach was to dismantle every aspect of my words that you could and shade me for it.   

I think that it is flawed, and even though we come to the same conclusions today, that does not mean we will come to the same conclusions in the future.

Nothing about your original post would suggest this was your motivation. You were clearly not trying to empathise with me and make sure our logic was consistent with each other; you were blatantly trying to discredit me.

Mutant, you're a strong player, wouldn't you say? You have a lot of outstanding experience in this game. Your words are a lot more easier to trust, because they come from someone who has experience in the game. Perhaps, even, people might try to emulate your playstyle to better themselves at the game. I don't want people to mindlessly just take your logic and reasoning at face value and believe it as if they are rules or something like that. I provided my own alternative viewpoint. It is not up to me to decide if people believe it or not. Some already seem to, some seem to disbelieve it. It's more like I'm checking you.

You must think pretty lowly of everyone here's intelligence to think that they'd be taking everything I have to say at face value. It's not necessary for you to tell everyone that they should be reading into everything I have to say rather than just accepting it since that's the whole point of the game and nobody here is new. Furthermore, there's a difference between simply checking my logic and **** all over it like you did. It's like the difference between pointing out a computer is broken vs taking it apart to show everyone all the broken pieces (and stamping on them in the process).

I am trying to debate you on your logic.

Why? What is your motivation behind that and why is that motivation townie?

I am trying to get you to reconsider the process you used to acquire your reads. Your leans today just so happen to be the same as mine, so why would I tell others to scum read you for them when they're the same? I'm trying to debate with your logic.

Please tell me how this list of quotes is you trying to get me to reconsider the process I used to acquire my reads:

▼Aggressive Quotes

Oh, really? Is that so?

Well, that was a **** lie.

Really? Because we don't.

You've gots a lots of 'splainin' to do Mr. Mutant.

You aren't so hard to lynch anymore, Mutant. If you make yourself out to be the scummiest player in a game like this, where a lynch is required every single day, then it's very likely that you can die, so don't be so reckless.

Explain.

Yeah champ?

I think not.

Mutant started out today immediately playing the bus game.

they have weakly argued

it's like you didn't even think about the selections.

Absolutely not. You're smarter than that, Mutant.

Do not tie yourself to him. You and him are two entirely separate players.

I can explain my conclusions with evidence. Where is yours?

Most of what you said to me was either emotively-aggressive, passive-aggressive or, at times, condescending. What part of that is you trying to help me better my logic? You also label my logic as scummy and use adjectives like 'weak' to describe it. Stop pretending that you're somehow being neutral as to 'not tell people what to think' because you are certainly implying what they should be thinking about my opinions.

That does sound reasonable. Living today does not clear you of all charges. We have had instances in past Mafia games where someone who was high-profile before a deciding lynch lived to see the next day, and then something happened that took the town's attention away from that person, and then the high-profile that person had attained was suddenly forgotten. It's happened with TaskManager and (ironically) Shadow within memory. I said on day 1 that just being nominated does not town clear you. If it wasn't fairly obvious, living an even-numbered night doesn't town clear you either. So, I have no problem with this point you made at all.

My point is that it feels like you're actively wanting people to think we could be mafia rather than just saying it shouldn't be ruled out.

I think Onjit's story is a burning pile of ash.

What makes you say this? Why would you think Onjit would lie and also replace out of a game just so that the scum team would win without him?

Finally, I'm also interested in why your approach towards me has changed from aggressive shading to being more diplomatic?

Why? What is your motivation behind that and why is that motivation townie?

What makes you say this? Why would you think Onjit would lie and also replace out of a game just so that the scum team would win without him?

Finally, I'm also interested in why your approach towards me has changed from aggressive shading to being more diplomatic?

I can't I just spent 20 minutes on catching Peace's errors.

So why did you?

TaskManager what is it about my opening posts this game that you suspect is scum motivated?

Also, I'd like to point out that Kira's iso is trash and I'd probably lynch him before Crybaby if he doesn't post anything substantial.

Again, it's how you rushed the voting at the start of a day

I'm trying to establish what exactly about that you find scummy though?

Alright I'm done with today's exam which means I should be able to contribute.

So why aren't you?

Are you waiting for us to give you something to comment on? Because if you currently have nothing to say then that's kinda worrying.

Is there something you find inherently scummy about coming to quick decisions?

There you go. This is a list showing the various times that I have said things with the intention of being able to read into the response. I got this list by doing a CTRL+F search of my iso. There's also some other non-question based stuff in there that I randomly picked out through specific memory of it/skim reading. Feel free to pick out any of these quotes to ask me what different responses I was predicting and how they would have affected my read.

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