Mafia 31 [Mafia Win]

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-21 20:03:34

TaskManager wrote:

ShadowsEdge wrote:
there was suspicion on me, which is something more than just a Policy lynch
suspicion?
what for?
from what i understood it was based entirely on previous games and was unreasonable as hell

It was unreasonable, yes, but I didn't want to just leave it as is. Especially so early on in the game. Had I just kept talking, ignoring the points that came to me, as I tried doing, I would have been continued to be suspected.

Anatoly wrote:

you realise the more you talk the more you are at suspect?

I have nothing to hide. If I just go silent, then that's just proving them right. I'm open about everything I've done this game thus far, so if I'm gonna be suspected further for saying what I want to say, then so be it.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-21 20:37:46

NorwegianboyEE wrote:

ShadowsEdge wrote:
You've made it clear you have no intentions of unvoting. You said within the first 19 posts of the game that you already had your mind set about me, and that was before anything truly started to go into a snowball effect. So do you really expect me to believe that you would have changed your mind?
Good god man, you keep projecting these images of people based on what you think they would do. Is it so hard for you to believe that i was simply testing you? I already said this many posts back, i want to know if you are truly on our side or not. But your recent posts hasn't helped you counteract my suspicions. Ironically, your constant attempts at painting me as a person that would "never take my vote back" is actually having that exact effect and making me want to lynch you more than ever.
It's not like i can say much constructive to your counterarguments when you create your own simplified straw men and attack their flaws like they represent the real thing.

Do you expect me to believe that you would change your mind on you stance of me when your 5th post in the game was saying that you I should be lynched? You had reasons, I can't counteract those reasons. And yes, I turn it back to you because I suspect you. And it's not specifically because of your stance on suspecting me, but it's because you went so quickly into suspecting me. Your first post was a lynch against me (Even if it was a joke, it was still there), 4th post was trying to put me as mafia, 5th post was saying that I would be a good lynch candidate. And by your 9th post, you had made it clear that you were going to keep your vote on me. Not even within 10 posts you had made a definite decision on me, based on claims with no structure, and brushed over points I made. I've brought up points others have made of me, I've brought up my own points about me, and they've been dismissed each time, because you already have an image of me.

You aren't willing to see an alternative, so I took a different route, I started a case against you. Whether that case will hold it's grounds or not is unknown. But the idea that you're so quick to focus on me is what I find to be suspicious.

Luka504 wrote:

Dude, there were many different ways you could have handled the situation that didn't involve staying silent.

Hindsight is 20/20. But at the time, as I've said before, I didn't think of any other way to go about it. So I went about it the way I thought would work for me, which was to ignore the situation. And as I did so, more suspicions came about me (from you and Norwegian), in which it became a situation I couldn't just ignore anymore. So I went about it, again, the way I thought would work for me. I couldn't defend against a case that provided no tangible evidence against me. So yes, in hindsight, I could have handled it better, but just because I "could have" or "should have" doesn't mean I did. I went about things the way I thought I should have. And so providing alternatives for how I "could have handled the situation" doesn't really provide any insight on anything.

Luka504 wrote:

For example, if you had just said that my 'I know I am not mafia' arguments were petty and meant nothing, and stuck with that, you'd probably not only have not been suspected, but you could have probably spun it in a way that made me look scummy.

Why would I purposefully try to make you look scummy? You pointed out an accusation and there's more to it than just saying that because I was Mafia last game, I could definitely be mafia this game.

Luka504 wrote:

But you were flustered and blurted out a lot of suspcious ****, and the more you talk, the worse your situation gets.

I never got nervous about the situation, I just provided an alternative, one that no one is willing to look towards, and tried defending myself.

At this point, my suspicions on me are the least of my worries. I'm more focused on trying to find plausible candidates for mafia. I'm aware me talking makes my situation worse. But why should things being made worse for me be a cause for me to just stop talking altogether? I keep talking despite it making me more suspicious because I have no reason to stop talking. I am town, so if you want to suspect me and lynch me, then so be it. Me just not talking altogether isn't an option, because I'll be putting my input in whether it makes me more suspicious or not.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-21 21:02:14

NorwegianboyEE wrote:

ShadowsEdge wrote:
You aren't willing to see an alternative, so I took a different route, I started a case against you. Whether that case will hold it's grounds or not is unknown. But the idea that you're so quick to focus on me is what I find to be suspicious.
What is your "case" exactly?
My impression so far has been more like a: "You vote me, therefore you are scum!" argument.

You still ignore my points. I've said before that I suspect you because you're quick to claim me as scum. You could have chosen anyone, yet you chose me specifically, disregarding the opinions of others, and focusing heavily on me. You disregard every point I make, and focus on the idea of me being Mafia. But for what? Especially on Day 1 you would know not to go so quickly into pushing a lynch on someone. And on the point of something you've made, I've mentioned how you're playing this game differently to last game. You're much more aggressive, whereas last game you put suspicion unto Luka for being aggressive, this game, you're openly being aggressive and taking charge on someone you don't even have definite proof of being Mafia. You went straight into a lynch against me, contrary to last game, where, again, you waited to gather more information before making a stance. Whereas in this game, you quickly jumped onto the idea that I must be mafia because my posts have a slightly scummy attribute to them. I've admitted to having such traits to my post, but what am I supposed to do to fix it? I've been marked from last game, because I'll always be a suspect because of how I played last game. So I went about things the way I thought I should. I find you suspicious because you don't look at an alternative, you hold strictly onto the idea that I have to be mafia, and disregard any opinion of a possibility that I could be town. You did mention it at one point, I'll say that, but mentioning the alternative isn't the same as exploring the alternative, You mention it once, and call it quits there. Thereafter you stick to the idea you've been holding onto the entire day.

So yes, I have suspicions on you. While they aren't any definite scum tells, I'll admit, at least I'm admitting the idea that there's a possibility you could be town. I don't hold strictly onto the idea that you're Mafia, I proposed the idea, but I'm not heavily enforcing it. So take with it what you will.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-21 21:55:01

NorwegianboyEE wrote:

I chose you because i know from past experience that you could be a potential major threat to the town as a scum player. One could always go the same old route of policy voting Peace or Anatoly, but if they are scum i don't think they would be a danger to the towncore, you however could be. That's why my initial plan was to quickly sort you into a townread by putting you under pressure with the RVS vote and getting the game started with some discussion other than "Hey, come! Let's lynch the annoying!" like Anatoly would put it.

That's not what I'm talking about. I admit the fact that I'm a player that could be a threat. But so could Mutant, so could Task, so could Jawapa. All people who were able to easily pass the radar of the townspeople before. Yet you specifically chose me for a reason. Why you chose me specifically over any of those three is still a mystery. But that's what that was asking about, not why you weren't pushing for a Policy lynch. I could care less about policy lynches because they provide absolutely nothing.

NorwegianboyEE wrote:

Behaving differently from the last game isn't necessarily a surefire scumtell, and if it is. Then that makes the player in question a bad player since they can be easily read in seconds based on their meta playing style.

You do realize how this contradicts your claims against me right? Your initial claims, and claims that Mutant have made as well is that I'm playing this game differently than last game, and are therefore trying to make people think that I'm playing differently to think I'm town.

NorwegianboyEE wrote:

What exactly am i doing wrong here, when you yourself admit that a portion of your posts seem scummy, yet that somehow makes me suspicious because i pick up on it and pressure you based on it?

The point isn't that you're taking things I say that are scummy and using it against me. I've stated before I think my posts are scummy, and I didn't bash Luka in for it because their posts are solely on that fact. The reason my suspicions are on you is solely because you refused to see alternatives.

NorwegianboyEE wrote:

I hate to repeat this to you again, but you've said yourself that your posts "have a slightly scummy attribute to them." I'm not sure if you're trying to dig your own grave or what. But almost nothing about your behavior in this entire game has seemed logical.

The point is that yes, I made a mistake and now I'm in a situation of my own demise. I admit that. But what I'm saying is that there's alternatives. Just like with Bimps, who everyone believed to be Mafia, because of his scum traits, turned out to be Town. There was no possible way to find out that they were Town, because he himself acted scummy, and as Mafia, I pushed that trait. And knowing you, someone who has already claimed to being better at Mafia than town, and pushing for a lynch against me, disregarding alternatives, it seems like you're trying to pin me as scum, while leaving out the idea of me being Town. So no, I don't have proof of me being town. I've tried helping, and I've tried to have a stance of being town, but each time I do, the fact that I said scummy things, unintentionally mind you, brought me into a position where I can no longer be read as town because of the things I've said. And I'm not blaming that part on you, that part is my own fault. The part that relates directly to you is pushing the idea of me being scum while disregarding alternatives.

NorwegianboyEE wrote:

This might be the only point you've made that makes me feel better about your slot. I don't think scum under pressure would avoid an opportunity to paint the accuser as maybe being town rather than claiming the attack on them is 100% scum motivated. I still wouldn't leave it behind me for you to be capable of playing this way as scum. But from the moment i'm writing this, i'll take a moment to reconsider your slot and take a look at the bigger picture.

While I appreciate you starting to look for a possible alternative, I'm not going to disregard my suspicions. I still have suspicions against you that are the only grounds of suspicion that I hold. And the fact that you only start looking for an alternative after me mentioning the fact that you don't look for an alternative adds to that.

I don't want to start a lynch against you. I do feel your posts make you suspicious, but nothing that defines you wholly as scum, which is why I'm not placing it. In any case, it's better to wait for a PR to investigate you to make sure.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-21 22:39:09

mutantdevle wrote:

ShadowsEdge wrote:
Hindsight is 20/20. But at the time, as I've said before, I didn't think of any other way to go about it.
ShadowsEdge wrote:
I explained before that the reason I specifically reacted that way is because there was no viable way I could have defended myself.
You've made numerous other comments like this that imply you believe you couldn't have done anything differently. So have you changed your mind on that?
You honestly confuse me. In the previous game you were phenomenal, yet now you can't even stick to the same story. I have different reasons to suspect you than that of Luka and Norwegian and in trying to defend yourself against each of our's points you keep contradicting yourself.

Like I said before. At the time, I believed there was nothing I could do. Hindsight is always 20/20. I could have handled it differently, as people have pointed out ways I could have handled it. But the point isn't about how I "could have handled it." The way I handled it was the way I thought was the right way, and I'll stick to that. But the reason I have changed my opinion is because yes, people have provided ways that I could have handled it. I still stick to the story that at the time, I saw no other option, because that's how it appeared to me when I was initially handling it.

You put me on a pedestal. As if last game was some pinnacle to gameplay for how I played it. It was good, but that doesn't mean it's a standard for how my playstyle is. My playstyle will fluctuate, and I have stuck to a singular story, which I have prompted over time. The only "contradicting" element that you provide is the idea that I changed my stance on how I handled the situation. Which I did change because there was options presented for how I could have handled it. But just because I was presented with these options after the matter doesn't change the fact that initally I didn't think of said option. As of now, I do see them and how I could have handled them. But as I've said multiple times, I handled things the way I did because it's the way I saw best fit to handle it.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-21 22:51:16

eleizibeth wrote:

mutantdevle wrote:
In the previous game you were phenomenal, yet now you can't even stick to the same story.
i think we gotta keep in mind that shadow was mafia last game, so he was probably thinking about his posts a lot more
however, when he was confronted by whoever about getting really upset (this game), it seemed like he had to think of a reason to back up why he was getting upset. once he thought of "oh, i'm getting upset because it's likely i'll be lynched even with one vote, because of the universe thing," it was almost like he realized that this was a good excuse, and so he keeps repeating it hoping that we see it as a valid explanation for getting upset. i do think it's a good reason by itself, but i'm starting to doubt it because of how much he is rambling about it, and how ramb-ly he's getting in general

I didn't get upset, I just pointed out the fact that Norwegian and Luka didn't give way to any sort of stance to see me as Town. They were certain I was Mafia, from within the time frame people started saying I was getting "paranoid." My opinion that I would be lynched had nothing to do with the universe, it was the fact that plurality lynch takes place, and I was sure that there would be no other point in question for any other claims. I was wrong in assuming there would be no Policy lynches, which is my mistake. And even in that case, the case against me is building up, so in reality, I still hold to that expectation. Just because I saw it as a "Good Excuse" doesn't mean that I pushed the idea for me being "upset." I restate the fact because I've been asked multiple times as to why I've been acting "paranoid" or now "upset." I'm getting "Ramble-y" because I have no other way to push my point. I've tried saying my points and getting people to listen to reason, but it's been met with backlash and more reasonings for why that pins me as Mafia. So yeah, I'm being more Rambley than I was last game, but it's not just for the heck of it.

mutantdevle wrote:

Heading into the evening and overnight there's going to be a lot of confusion primarily because of the sheer amount of power roles. The mafia teams have gained a tiny bit of juicy information prompting the question, do they make the safe obvious kill or try for something more risky? Well, we know how playing the safe game worked out for the mafia team last game... oh wait no we don't 'the mafia are making safe plays' was a lie created by the real mafia team. I wonder what lies the current mafias are concocting. I guess only time will tell.

The Mafia can kill anyone and it provides them no harm. There is no Doctor, there is no Veteran, there is no Lookout, and there is no Tracker. They can realistically choose whoever they like, and the only drawback they will be faced with is the matter that if the person they attempt to kill is from a different universe, their kill will fail. But other than that, there's no drawback to choosing whoever they'd like to kill whenever they want. So there's not really a "safe kill" or a "risky kill" because the only sense of risk is the Universe aspect.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-21 23:01:17

mutantdevle wrote:

Shadow what are your reads?

Norwegian is suspicious. Norwegian chose me specifically while deterring from you, Taskmanager, Jawapa, Crybaby, etc. All people who have been known to play well, and be a strong enemy of the town, if they happen to be Mafia.

I don't have strong suspicions against anyone else though. Luka could be seen as suspicious, but in the case that Norwegian is Mafia, I think it's more likely that Norwegian is trying to frame Luka. Alternatively if Norwegian is Town (Which I'm not completely against the idea of observing), then it's more likely that Luka is Mafia, and hiding behind Norwegian's strong claims in order to put less suspicion onto them.

Again, more forward, if Norwegian is Mafia, I'd consider you, or Task mostly as their teammate. Norwegian's main claim to choosing me specifically as their target could apply to both of you, as well as Crybaby or Jawapa. But Jawapa and Crybaby have been relatively inactive, so i cant say much about them. However, Norwegian has been more passive towards you and Task, which could be to not draw suspicion to either of you (On the case that Norwegian is Mafia). Although, not definite, only a possibility.

As for this:

mutantdevle wrote:

eleizibeth wrote:
i think we gotta keep in mind that shadow was mafia last game, so he was probably thinking about his posts a lot more
As mafia he'd need to think of a convincing lie to tell. As town, all he has to do is tell the truth. Yet somehow he's seemingly better at lying than telling the truth?? That just doesn't make sense to me.

I have been telling the truth. The only reason it seems like Im "better at lying than telling the truth," is because I've tried defending myself, which came off as more scummy, and then eventually led to me just being read as scum. I've said before that it's something of my own demise, but it's seemingly impossible to change the opinion of me, because the stance is already drastically set in one direction that all the posts I make only add to that description of "scum" that I've been pinned with.

The only difference with this game than last game is that my lies were more convincing because I panned them out, and was able to make grounds for my claims. This game, going fully onto the truth, I'm not panning out a story for which I'm to follow, I'm simply restating the events as I experienced them.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-21 23:07:01

mutantdevle wrote:

ShadowsEdge wrote:
The Mafia can kill anyone and it provides them no harm. There is no Doctor, there is no Veteran, there is no Lookout, and there is no Tracker. They can realistically choose whoever they like, and the only drawback they will be faced with is the matter that if the person they attempt to kill is from a different universe, their kill will fail. But other than that, there's no drawback to choosing whoever they'd like to kill whenever they want. So there's not really a "safe kill" or a "risky kill" because the only sense of risk is the Universe aspect.
Their kill failing IS harm. Hence the safe kills are the ones that they can be more confident on succeeding. Anatoly revealing he's Omega coupled with the approximately 50% chance that we learn the universal alignment of someone by way of them not being lynched means the mafia goes into the night either both having a small bit of information or 1 having a tiny bit of information whilst the other has a medium. That's enough for 1 or both factions to have a safe option.

They can choose anyone they'd like, and yes, they'd have the chance to miskill. But in that sense, it doesn't reveal any of them as Mafia. That's why I said it provided no harm. They'd want to choose someone in their universe, of course, but them choosing to kill a specific person doesn't hurt them in a negative way, it's more in a neutral way, since no kill was done, but none of them are revealed. The second part of that statement I do agree with, but it's not the point I was making.

Also for this:

mutantdevle wrote:

Also, your reads list is missing a lot of names.

ShadowsEdge wrote:

I don't have strong suspicions against anyone else though.

I don't strongly suspect anyone else.Everyone else seems neutral to me. There was stuff brought up about Peace, but I don't know Peace all that well, so to me it just seemed pretty neutral in general, and most of the other people I've seen posts from also just gave a neutral feeling. So I just put it as not having strong suspicions.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-21 23:09:58

mutantdevle wrote:

Could it not be possible that he simply made a random choice from among the strongest players?

It's possible, but highly unlikely. He's focused specifically on me, and while he's stated his reasons for focusing me, has yet to follow through on that claim to any other person other than me.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-22 06:36:54

TaskManager wrote:

ShadowsEdge wrote:
Norwegian chose me specifically while deterring from you, Taskmanager, Jawapa, Crybaby, etc.
i dont agree with lynching someone because they played well as a mafia in the previous game
however, if we pick by that criteria, you would be indeed the most eligible choice since you pretty much went under the radar in french revo game

I suppose that's true. But it still doesn't justify Norwegian solely focusing on me. They could have gone to other options, but stuck firmly onto me for the entirety of the day.

2B55B5G TNG wrote:

To be honest, Shadow, blame yourself for getting in this situation.

ShadowsEdge wrote:

So no, I don't have proof of me being town. I've tried helping, and I've tried to have a stance of being town, but each time I do, the fact that I said scummy things, unintentionally mind you, brought me into a position where I can no longer be read as town because of the things I've said. And I'm not blaming that part on you, that part is my own fault.

2B55B5G TNG wrote:

If you weren’t so set on that you will be lynched, maybe you would’ve got out of this situation. When Norboy placed his vote on you, it’s still very early in the game, and I think at that time he wasn’t even set about his vote. So your thought about you are 100% getting lynched is very weird.

ShadowsEdge wrote:

Like I said before. At the time, I believed there was nothing I could do. Hindsight is always 20/20. I could have handled it differently, as people have pointed out ways I could have handled it. But the point isn't about how I "could have handled it." The way I handled it was the way I thought was the right way, and I'll stick to that. But the reason I have changed my opinion is because yes, people have provided ways that I could have handled it. I still stick to the story that at the time, I saw no other option, because that's how it appeared to me when I was initially handling it.

2B55B5G TNG wrote:

One thing I want to mention is that both Norboy and Shadow’s playstyle are very different from the previous game. I can understand Norboy being aggressive, based on his experience on the previous game. But Shadow, I don’t understand it, when Zelda voted for you in the previous game, you weren’t even panicking about it. Now Norboy votes for you, then you have that ‘oh I’m gonna be lynched’ attitude. I don’t understand this sudden change.

mutantdevle wrote:

You honestly confuse me. In the previous game you were phenomenal, yet now you can't even stick to the same story. I have different reasons to suspect you than that of Luka and Norwegian and in trying to defend yourself against each of our's points you keep contradicting yourself.

I'm not sure if you just didn't read the thread or something, but all of the points you've made in that post have been talked about and discussed already.

I've said before that my reaction to Norwegian's vote wasn't me "panicking" or anything. I did exaggerate, because it's how I saw it at the time. I chose to take a different approach this game. Whereas last game, I had no reason to need to defend myself, this game I chose to do so, because defending myself would be the only way I would survive because of the circumstances of last game. Yet, after I did defend myself I'm labeled as "panicking" or "nervous" or some other stupid excuse like that.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-22 17:40:27

NorwegianboyEE wrote:

So now Shadow’s main point is that i am only focusing on him. Look at the activity chart, who’s been posting the most here? Anatoly, Shadow, and me. Anatoly i think he’s town, because only dumb town would reveal their own universe for no reason. Everyone else hasn’t posted as much. Except for Luka and Mutantdevle. Mutant seems more eager to solve the game in this than the "oh i’m so busy, just don’t care about solving this." Attitude from the last game, so he’s a townlean. Luka idk, maybe he’s scum coasting along my opinions, but i think he could also be sharing my aggressive style and wants to solve the game. Barring any flips, i’m not sure i want to scumread him yet. Everyone else will have to start talkin for me to form a stronger read on them. Mutant’s post also made me consider that perhaps the mafia is just watching from the sidelines and not bothering with this whole drama. That might be my biggest concern and reason to reconsider my read on Shadow.

I don't really understand the purpose of this post. In the beginning it sounds like you're trying to make a contradictory statement to my post saying that you're focusing me. But then as you go through it, you switch to statements on others, and then state why you think you're going to reconsider my stance? I feel like there's some point in this post I'm missing, but it's just confusing.

2B55B5G TNG wrote:

Shadow might be just bad at defending. I’m not leaning Shadow towards either town or mafia because of that.
Shadow, imo, is still a valuable player for us to keep.
I want to ask Norboy about his vote. Why did you lynch Shadow at first? Is it only because he fooled us all in the previous game?

I agree with others on this point. In literally the post above that, you were explaining reasons why lynching me would be good. Then on the next post you do a complete 360 and justify why lynching me is a bad idea.

Also you further tried to push the point that I'm not a good lynch after others joined in on it:

2B55B5G TNG wrote:

Okay, even if there’s no info we can gain, is it worth lynching Shadow? Shadow is a strong player and he can help us a lot (if he’s town). Lynching him in D1 is just not a very good move imo.
I currently don’t really have a candidate to suggest.

As for that, you turned to talk about why I'm not a good candidate for lynch after I was:

Backed up by Kira
Backed up by Task
Started to be reconsidered by Norwegian

I feel like at this point, you're just trying to follow the majority instead of create your own opinion.

Kira wrote:

A few hours left and town is going in every directions. As I said in my previous post, there is nothing we can gain from lynching Anatoly/peace/Shadows and right now Andy is a safe lynch.
Follow us.

As much as I appreciate backup, I'd also like to know a reason why. You brought Andy up out of nowhere, and are now pushing for a lynch against him, while not providing evidence, but asking for others to find that evidence for themselves.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-22 18:57:42

Anatoly wrote:

I’ll roleclaim in 30 minutes if nothing will change.
You’re all just losing a Lynch.

Why are you still on the idea that people are lynching you? From what I've seen, it seems like the vote has been turned over to AndyMakeer, but you still feel the need to focus on the fact that it's on you? Also, I highly suggest that you don't roleclaim. Because with the mafia, likely already knowing your universe, knowing your role would most likely just be giving the Mafia more incentive to target you.

As for the whole thing about the AndyMakeer lynch, I didn't see much I could commentate on, since most of the things that were talked about were already discussed, and points I thought to brought up were already pointed out.

I still don't know the exact reason for why the vote is switching to AndyMakeer. I know Mutant tried explaining it, but it all seems like the same reasoning for why people were suggesting lynching me (Using the lynch to determine other people's alignment). At the moment, I'm pretty sure AndyMakeer is the top voted one, so unless more reasoning comes up for why Andy is a good lynch for today (Either from Mutant or Kira), then I'll vote. But for now I'll just put my input in where needed.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-24 04:30:18

Aight, this is pretty inactive as of right now.

I'm starting to suspect Kira and Mutant. I'll explain some reasonings, but it should be fairly obvious why I'm suspecting them.

Kira completely switched the vote, and encouraged others to vote for AndyMakeer while providing no concrete reasoning for why we should do so. Only giving us questions to think about to find the answer for ourselves. Thinking about the outcome of it, it seems like a BS excuse to get someone else to justify their reasoning for changing the vote to someone else. I want to hear from Kira about why they chose to change the vote, and possibly from Mutant, about why he chose to support them.

As for Mutant, he seemed confident in his vote against AndyMakeer. Why he was so confident, I dont understand (Especially since Andymakeer hadn't talked that much). But he went so far as to take suspicion if Andy were to flip town:

mutantdevle wrote:

As a surface level, Andy flipping scum would be evidence that peace is town (or at the very least, not the same mafia team). The same can also be said about Kira given the random vote and now especially with Andy's recent post. On the other hand, Andy's town flip could be a crucial factor in any cases that later develops against Kira. And for myself also if you'd like.

The same reasoning for Mutant's lynch and Kira's lynch on AndyMakeer (From what they've consively stated), is that lynching AndyMakeer would reveal information about specific people. But again, as I've menetioned before, the same reasoning was being used to push my lynch after it escalated to a certain point. They both had intentions they never revealed, which is why I find it weird.

In any case, I just wanted to point out some stuff to put ideas on the table. At the moment, I'm going to wait for Kira and Mutant to respond before making any decisions.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-25 05:08:39

Crybaby wrote:

Mysterious how he disappears as soon as the heat around him is gone

I was gone because I have band practice. I mentioned that last game too. Every tuesday I have band practice after school so I don't get home 'til around this time. But I understand where the sentiment is coming from.

As well as for input. I still am suspicious of Norwegian, Luka, Mutant, and Kira (Similarly to 2B55), but I've explained reasons for why I suspect them before. Albeit, all of them I only see as a slight suspicion. Luka in general is pretty neutral for me, though. In general, he seems very town, because he does seem like he's been trying to solve the game, as Norwegian had said before. But one thing I noticed is that Luka is also taking a drastically different approach to this game. He's told me before that he's naturally aggressive while playing Mafia, hence why last game, he was very aggressive in lynching Slab. Although, just a slight suspicion on that end. I see this mainly because instead of Luka taking charge on the lynch against me, they let Norwegian take charge, and only sort of backed up on the lynch. Could be wrong though.

2B55 seems off, in the same way that others have mentioned. And it's not because of 2B55's change from this game to another game. It's that in this game specifically he's kind of just hopping on other's ideas. What I've noticed is that he seems to mainly take the sentiments that others are sharing at the time (E.g. Lynch on Me, retraction of lynch on me, change of heart to Kira and mutant). And kind of in itself, it's not that bad of a thing, 2B55 doesn't really explain his reasonings. He provides an explanation, sure, but it's usually explanations that other's have previously provided. This could just be, of course, due to a lack of reading the thread, but I wouldn't lose the suspicion, nonetheless.

As for Kira's assessment. Kira has been sort of sporadic through lynching. I'm pretty sure it's a tactic to put pressure on the people, but they've lynched two separate people today. But as for their claim, due to a lack of a counterclaim, I'm more inclined to believe in Kira's claim.

Although, I wanna bring up this:

Kira wrote:

Suspicious people to me are:
Crybaby
Kirby
Eleizibeth
ZeldaXD
Can we get a list from everyone and see if anything matches?

Their suspicious reads are of people who have been inactive. All of the people they put as suspicious are inactive people. I don't think anyone has pointed that out. So I want to know from Kira, why did you specifically put inactive people, rather than any active players (That gave slight-scum reads or anything). I could be wrong, and Kira just has no strong reads on any active players, but with the input from various people who have been active, I find it hard to believe that Kira's suspicions are still all on people who are inactive.

On a separate, related note:

ZeldaXD wrote:

There are 2 vanilla townies per universe, and one of them we're certain was Andymaker, and now Kira has roleclaimed it. There have no been counterclaims to it (there are no more Vanilla Alpha vanilla townies), so I have no reason to doubt about Kira's claim unless there's any counterclaims to it, and if you're reading this and you're the real remaining Town Vanilla Alpha, I think you should claim because then we'll know Kira is bluffing (wait for people to answer to my post though, I may be overlooking reasons for why the real remaining town vanilla alpha, if it's not Kira, should not claim). I think many of you have overlooked this, and I'm suspicious of Kirby for that reason.

Personally I think asking for the real Alpha Townie (If applicable) to claim is a bad move. If the Alpha Townie claims, it gives the mafia another guaranteed target. Sure, it will reveal Kira as mafia (If there is a CC), but I think it's a bad idea in general. Besides, we'll find out eventually if Kira is Mafia, likely the Mafia will target Kira in order to guarantee a kill (If no other guarantee is available).

Knowing that, however, be wary of the mafia possibly trying to frame Kira, because if they are town, and the mafia being given multiple targets for whom to kill tonight, they could choose not to kill Kira in order to frame them. But assuming there's no Alpha claims, eventually it will come down to Kira (If they aren't mafia).

mrjawapa wrote:

Would be happy to most more. Hard to interject when like 4 people are constantly going back and forth. Conversation shifts a lot by the time I have a chance to respond.
!vote ele
This is based on meta. I have a feeling hes a power role of some sort, and is being quiet to avoid being killed.

I don't understand how any of this make sense. Jawapa thinks they're a PR, and they choose to lynch them for what? I would understand if they think that Ele is Mafia, and decided to lynch Ele, but they said specifically that it's because they believe that they're a PR trying to avoid being killed. Later he says he votes Ele specifically because of RNG, so I'm kind of just confused on Jawapa's points.

Anyway, I think that's really all I have to say. Again, sorry for being inactive, had practice today, and my phone died while I was at school so I couldn't post anything.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-25 05:16:57

Oh wait I realized that I skipped over Kira's explanation of their reads:

Kira wrote:

Alright so, let's go over the current players:
NorwegianboyEE: Town lean
2B55B5G TNG: Has the same playstyle as when he was Mafia, I would watch out for him.
TaskManager: Town lean
mutantdevle: Town, followed my lynch. If Mutant was mafia he'd most likely play it more passively and NOT follow my lynch knowing that AndyMakeer was town (If he was scum he'd know that AndyMakeer is town, therefore he wouldn't make himself look suspicious).
Luka504: Town lean
mrjawapa: Playing pretty aggressively this time. Drifter vibes?
ZeldaXD: No comment, Inactive.
Crybaby: I was getting bad vibes from Crybaby but his recent posts makes me believe that he is town.
Kirby: Inactive, followed the Andy vote with "I'd rather not have a tie excuse".
peace: Is obvious when he is Mafia, I believe Peace is town.
ShadowsEdge: Had a rough start, Scum lean, but I will give him the benefit of the doubt
eleizibeth: Did post her opinions on the situation but did not convince me. Scum lean

Although, it's weird that Crybaby was put as suspicious in the original post before this, and then changed to a town lean because of "recent posts," but with no posts by Crybaby between that post and this post. As well as changing their suspicions over to 2B55 as well as myself, neither of which showed up on their original suspicion list (Neither of us talked during the inbetween, so I'm unsure if they went back and reanalyzed, or just changed their suspicions for some odd reason). No explanation for Norwegian and Luka as well. Anyway, I'm gonna change my question for Kira (Because I forgot about this post for some reason when I was making the post before this), can you explain what made you change your mind on Crybaby, specifically? As well as what changed between the original post and this post that changed your suspicion reads over to 2B55 and I? Furthermore, it would be helpful if you could explain a reason for why you see Norwegian and Luka as a town read, other than just saying "Town read."

Minimania, mutantdevle

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-25 15:17:37

Aight I'm up now.

I appreciate 2B55 posting one of his reads, and going into explanations for it. But I'm not going to drop the suspicion.

NorwegianboyEE wrote:

I don’t see what people say about 2B55B5G TNG to hold much fruit, he seems relatively townie to me. He could be posting a bit more on Day 2 maybe, but not much else to criticize him for. I say we do the right thing and lynch Shadow. I have a feeling Andee was a counter-wagon possibly instigated by one of his scum teammates to ease the heat off of him. As a whole, Mutant’s and Kira’s hard push for Andee at the end of D1 just rubs me the wrong way when looking back on it. If Shadow is scum it would explain a lot.

You're going too rashly into this. Albeit, they are good reasonings, so I can't definitively say a reason for why you shouldn't.

If I am to be lynched, my suspicions would be on Norwegian. I know full well what I am going to flip if I am lynched. So if I am to be lynched, Norwegian is my top suspicion, because he not only brought up the lynch on Day 1, but he continued to bring it up, even after multiple times of saying that they were "reconsidering their stance" on me. They brought up the lynch out of nowhere on Day 1, and yet again, brought up the lynch out of nowhere on Day 2. I could be wrong, but if the lynch follows through, my suspicions would be more on Norwegian rather than Mutant and Kira.

Anyway, I have to head out to school soon. I can't provide justifiable reasonings for why I shouldn't be lynched, so if you're confident in your stance on me, Norwegian, then continue on if you please. But I know what I will flip, and I urge others to take what I say to heart if I am to be lynched today.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-25 16:36:54

Theres also the possibilitie that one of them could be a PR claiming Townie in order to not draw suspicion to themselves by the Mafia.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-25 16:45:11

peace wrote:

onjit are dead players allowed to vote?

What makes you think dead people can vote?

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-25 16:55:12

peace wrote:

Kira wrote:
peace wrote:
ShadowsEdge wrote:
Theres also the possibilitie that one of them could be a PR claiming Townie in order to not draw suspicion to themselves by the Mafia.
hmmm
why would kira do that with no votes on her i find things vague here and wellh ow to say this.. i knwo my role card yeah kira coudl say the same but a counterclaim is somethign to tak ein acoutn even or the aplha thign being confirmed already and that frrom kira isnt alos kira was the first to lynch andy and mutant was following mutant COULD be his buddy
onjit are dead players allowed to vote?
I really think town is going in a very wrong direction and you're not making things easier Peace, worse, you're confusing everyone with your late counterclaim/falseclaim.
-----------------
Town, I think we should focus on players that are actually suspicious, killing another townie will not help our case. Let's team up to find the scums please.
I'm tempted to go for a ZeldaXD lynch to make him talk.
!vote ZeldaXD
kira theres a coutnercliam on you and you just let this go aside? to drvie attention away form you eing suspictiolous as hell now your universe isnt confirmed yet min is my role isnt but my cliam is more corrrect then yours caus emy cliam ahs 50% of th einformation that is ATLEAST right yours has 0% yeha i may be sus nwo too cbtu atleast i have a reason to countercliam you becuas emy universe is already revealed heck maby i wouldv eeven countercliamed if you claiamed to be universe cop and i was the real universe cop just because my universe is revealed so i think i got a mafia memebr now and i want you dead because of lying and fqalseclaiming alos if poeple do lycnh me and see i was right aout my counterlciam ur dead

I dont even understand what peace is saying here. It sounds like he's saying that he would have CCd if Kira claimed Universe Cop too? I dont understand any of what peace is saying, but how hes going about explaining it is weird.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-25 17:37:53

I really dont understand why Kira chose to claim VT, they could have easily been perceived as the Drifter, assuming thay are the Drifter, but they went the length to make themselves seem like they were VT (acting like they didnt know the roles were in the OP), and then tried to get Peace to claim Drifter. In all, it really doesnt make sense in totality. I get the reasoning, but when you consider all the lengths that Kira went through for this specific idea, it seems excessive.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-26 02:29:32

Aight so I have some time to make a post. So here we go.

My stance on Kira is still pretty fluid. The CC against him has put him in a very tough spot, and most of his reasonings for why he chose to go about everything seem like weak reasonings. At first, I had the impression that he claimed Drifter. And no one talked about it so I backread to see if he did claim, and it turns out he didn't. He only said:

Kira wrote:

-All I'm going to say is that I am town, I might or might not be from Alpha universe, I might or might not be a PR, I might or might not be the Drifter, however I am not Mafia and your focus shouldn't be on me right now.

Firstly, he starts this out by saying that he is town, but then later says he "might or might not be the Drifter." That specifically is where I think I got the idea of him being the Drifter. My thought process at the time was that if Kira is the Drifter, whom has no aliegiance with the Town, only to survive until the end of the game, they would have no reason to protect Peace. Especially on the fact that they admitted that they went blindly into assuming that Peace was VT. Albeit, they were right, and their claim to knowing that Peace was VT is weak. They would have a guess of knowing that Peace was VT, but instead, the way that Kira presented the idea, Kira was certain about Peace being VT at the time.

I'd also like to point out this post:

Kira wrote:

Universe/Faction cop will not vote for me after finding out my true role. That's all I'm going to say

Kira, if they aren't the Drifter, and aren't lying about their universe claim, would only be applicable to two roles: Mason and Mafia. I deter from Universe and Faction Cop because Faction Cop in Alpha is dead, and he is asking a Universe cop to investigate him to find out his "true role," in whatever sense that means.

Jawapa's claims do have some value to them. I did propose the idea of either Kira or Peace being a PR before, but it doesn't seem like Kira is using that to say they're a Faction Cop. Their statement is for a Universe/Faction Cop to investigate them, which will then reveal their "true role," as I stated in the message before this. It's possible they could be doing this to make it seem like they aren't the Faction Cop, but they used that statement as a matter of fact, someone seeming like asking for a Faction Cop to investigate them to figure out their role. Hence, why I don't believe in the claim that Kira could be Omega Faction Cop. I'm willing to accept the idea, if more evidence shows to prove that, but at this point in time, it doesn't make sense for them to be the Faction Cop.

On top of what I had said before, if they were to investigate Kirby, and claim them as Mafia, why would they go about it in such a subtle way? If they were the Faction Cop, they could say with definite proof that Kirby is Mafia, thus allowing the Town to lynch them. But instead their only claim is one phrase in one specific post that said "And you're mafia."

And the point being that they didn't want to be killed could have simply been avoided. Instead of claiming as Faction Cop, they could have pushed for a lynch against Kirby, but they instead pushed for lynches against inactive people, rather than the person they "knew" to be Mafia. Their actions don't line up with the information presented, which is why I don't believe that Kira is the Faction Cop.

Personally, I'm more inclined to believe that Kira is the Drifter. They say with such certainty that if a Faction Cop or Universe Cop investigates them, they would know his "true role." It's possible he could be Mafia as well, and trying to deter us into believing he is the Drifter, or town by claiming such. But a Faction Cop investigating the Drifter would yield a neutral result, thus revealing them easily as the Drifter. Universe Cop is more of a stretch, but I suppose it could be seen if they were seen switching between universes by the Universe Cop. Although, that would require two investigations, which is why it's more of a stretch.

It's also very possible that they're Mafia. As I said before, it could be a tactic to trick us into believing a certain thing. I would definitely not put it past Kira, as they were able to get people to believe they were Alpha VT when they claimed VT, and acted like they didn't know that the role cards were in the OP.

Anyway, that's all the input I have for now. I'm not inclined to believe that Kira is the other Faction Cop, since their actions simply dont line up with that idea. It's possible they could be another type of PR, but the only PR I can reasonably imagine them being is the Mason. Which is why I'm more inclined to believe they're the Drifter, rather than a town.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-26 03:49:01

mrjawapa wrote:

As I mentioned earlier: it's very likely he claimed alpha to throw the mafia off. If he claims he's in universe alpha, the alpha mafia will try to kill him, and it will fail.
It doesn't make sense for the drifter to make this big of a scene, and go through all these troubles. Trying to kill the drifter is a wasted effort by both mafias. It's not a kill worth pursuing.

That's true, but that was going with the assumption that Kira isn't lying about their claim to their universe. We have no knowledge of knowing if Kira was truly lying about their stance.

mrjawapa wrote:

That doesn't mean he isn't a faction cop. That's exactly something a PR would say.

How would a Faction Cop investigating him reveal his true role? If he was truly the Faction Cop, he would have no need to ask the Faction Cop to investigate him. If the Universe Cop were to investigate him, how would that reveal his true role, if he were Faction Cop? It would reveal that he's not Alpha, but in that sense he would be suspected of being Omega Mafia, rather than Alpha mafia.

He said that with such certainty that if he were investigated by a Faction or Universe Cop, his "true role" would be revealed. In what sense does that point you to continuing to believe he is the Faction Cop?

mrjawapa wrote:

He wouldn't, because that's suicide.

Of course, but the idea is that his actions don't line up with your assumption that he is the Faction Cop. His actions specifically in Day 2 don't seem like he knows definitively that Kirby is Mafia. He wouldn't have had to reveal as the Faction Cop either, he could have simply tried to draw suspicion onto Kirby, by accusing them for inactivity, accusing them for something they found suspicious and building the suspicion against them. But Kira only said "And you're Mafia" and that was the end of it. They never pushed for a lynch against Kirby, despite claiming them to be Mafia. It makes it seem as though Kira said that specifically as a joke, or a way to discredit the claim Kirby was making.

mrjawapa wrote:

Because they can collect more information before getting killed. Coming to the table with multiple names is far better than mentioning one mafia, and immediately dying.
If the town followed through with lynching him, they would skim his posts for breadcrumbs. Finding the post "And you're mafia" would have been a super helpful post.
Come on, you've played this enough. You know that.

I went over that idea in the paragraph directly following the one you just refuted. You make it seem as though you aren't really reading my post, and are instead finding the parts of it that incriminate me, that way you can turn it against me.

mrjawapa wrote:

No he didn't?
People rejected his role claim immediately. He's racked up several votes from people that didn't believe it. I have no idea what kind of **** you're trying to pedal in this post.

I'll just leave this part to these quotes:

Luka504 wrote:

Though, claiming your universe does convince me that you are being honest here.

TaskManager wrote:

its
not
like
rolecards
are
in
the
op

^ Using this post specifically to indicate the next posts.

NorwegianboyEE wrote:

That’s some douchey meta-play you’re doing there Kira. Besides, we can read all of the role pm text in Onjit’s first post, so citing role text doesn’t prove anything.

Luka504 wrote:

I can't tell if what you've just done is evidence that he's a townie or proof that he should taste the rope.

TaskManager wrote:

Kirby what do you think about Kira's accidental or maybe deliberate townclear?

They were suspicious of the vote, but they had no reason to believe that Kira wasn't VT, because Kira made it believeable that they didn't realize the cards are in the OP. He didn't immediately "votes from people that didn't believe it," in fact, the wagon on Kira only started shortly after Peace CC'd him. The only person who I recalled that lynched Kira after his claim, and before Peace's CC was Kirby. So it's you who's twisting the ideas.

mrjawapa wrote:

Yes... he pushed for an inactive on D1. The first day. Before anyone has had the chance to use their nightly abilities. So he wouldn't have known kirby was mafia at that time.

They've voted for both Ele and 2B55.. today, while providing no explanation during either post. The only reason I gathered was that before lynching Ele, they claimed that the inactives needed to speak more, which is why I assume they started lynching inactives. And again, this is talking about today. You claim that he knows Kirby is mafia, but, yet again, in THIS current day, he chooses to lynch inactive people rather than the person who he supposedly knows to be mafia.

mrjawapa wrote:

They absolutely do. More so than being the drifter.

I explained my reasons for why in my original post, so I shouldn't need to go over this point again.

mrjawapa wrote:

Your post has convinced me that you are kirby's mafia partner. You know this game well enough to make some of your responses inexcusable. A few of them are very flawed, and look like you're grasping for straws.

The same thing can be said about you. You decided to change the lynch from Kira, out of the blue, onto Kirby. You see how this directly contrasts what you're saying right? Furthermore, I never said anything about your lynch on Kirby. I have no clue about Kirby's alignment. I simply showed my reasonings for why I believed that Kira wasn't the Faction Cop, and you turn it into a reason for me defending Kirby.

mrjawapa wrote:

You are obviously trying to discredit the idea to protect Kirby.

In no way was I trying to "discredit the idea." I stated multiple times throughout the post that it's possible that Kira could be the Omega Faction Cop, I said that I was saying my reasons for why I personally believe that Kira isn't the Faction Cop. And from that, you, again, turned it into a way to discredit me, ignoring points that I've made, and continue to take on the idea that because my ideas are different than yours, then I must be the Mafia trying to get you to believe something different.

Along that, your counterpoints to my claims have little substance, they're simple phrases, not really explaining a whole lot of why you counter my belief. You say I'm "Clutching at straws" as a way to disprove my ideas, when I've provided my reasonings for believing it all.

I'm starting to get more suspicion on Jawapa, however, I don't want to change the lynch to another person, since knowing Kira's flip could also be used to determine more of a stance on Jawapa.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-26 15:59:03

Everything about this whole situation seems flawed. Jawapa also had accusations on me for disagreeing with believing that Kira is the Faction Cop.

In general, his claim to believing that Kira is the Faction Cop has a lot of holes in it, as I pointed out in my post. But instead of acknowledging the holes in his idea, he ignored the flaws, and turned it around as me trying to prevent Kirby from being suspected.

I don't really have a lot of time to go into all of the stuff for it right now, but Jawapa is giving me a bad feeling because of how he's going about trying to convince people that Kira the Faction Cop.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-27 00:55:00

Alright people I'm home now.

Firstly, I'm really sorry Luka, you seem to really have a bad streak with these kinds of things ;-;. I know this is late, but I hope it gets better for you, if it hasn't already.

Secondly, this:

Kirby wrote:

ok ill be more clear
i am drifter
i chose alpha today because i knew mafia would target anatoly or peace since they were confirmed alpha
i doubt enough people will be online in the next 2 hours to change majority, so i guess i'll say i'm pretty convinced kira and jawapa are mafia buddies, and i get the impression that mutant might be mafia from a different universe and may have suspected that i was drifter.
yeeeep

I personally think that both Kira and Kirby should be lynched today, if Kirby is to be lynched.

My reasoning is that if Kirby really is the Drifter, and came on Alpha today, then if Kira is lynched alongside them, if they're Omega (Which I'm also heavily doubting for reasons I'll state in a bit), then they'll be lynched and we'll be able to get the information off that, assuming whatever role they flip.

If Kira is NOT lynched alongside Kirby, that would mean Kira is Alpha, and therefore is more likely to be Mafia, as their actions don't line up with them being a PR other than the Mason.

The reason I personally believe that Kira isn't Omega, or more specifically, the Omega Faction cop, I've stated before. Although, they didn't line up with the idea that Kirby was Mafia until Jawapa made a long post calling out Kirby as Mafia, and Kira as the Faction Cop.

In itself, it's also very weird. Jawapa says specifically that the reason Kira didn't openly push for a lynch on Kirby, given that they are the Faction Cop, was that they didn't want to be killed by the Mafia. But in the same day that message was made, Jawapa makes a whole load of points explaining why Kira is the Faction Cop. If Jawapa knew Kira was the Faction Cop, and that they were trying not to be revealed as the faction cop, why would Jawapa make a post advocating for them as the Faction Cop, instead of making a post advocating for Kirby as Mafia.

Jawapa has even pointed out multiple times that Kira was hiding to not be revealed as the FC, and therefore not be a target for the Mafia. But in what Jawapa is doing, he has, in turn, made Kira a direct target if they are the FC.

Even if Kira is truly the FC, I wouldn't consider Jawapa confirmed as town. The way he went about claiming Kira as the FC had multiple plot holes which he simply glossed over. And as I pointed them out, and others as well, he provided stupid reasonings for why our claims are false. Instead of saying why it's not a plot hole, he simply starts attacking us for mentioning the plot holes. First with me, starting by claiming me as Mafia, and then with Luka, of which the replies felt something more like "That's wrong, your arguments are weak," instead of providing information of why the arguments are weak, and why his claims are wrong.

Just because Jawapa advocated for Kira as a town doesn't mean that Jawapa is coherently Town. I advocated for people as Town in The French Revolution even when I was Mafia. So just because Jawapa considers Kira as town, and is advocating for it, I wouldn't just drop all suspicion against him.

I don't want to tie the votes. So if the votes start leaning heavily in one direction, I'll vote for whomever I deem more suspicious. But at the moment, lynching either Kirby or Kira would just put the votes closer to a tie.

ShadowsEdge · 2019-09-27 00:56:58

Oops I forgot to say the reason for why I don't believe Kira is Omega. Kira has claimed to being both Alpha and Omega, at different stages of the game. They weren't forced to claim to anything, yet they claimed Alpha. And later, they claimed to being Omega, which was only after Jawapa claimed them as being Omega.

I could very well be wrong, as I'm not counting out the possibility, but that's mainly my biggest reason for not believing that Kira is Omega.

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Re: Mafia 31 [Mafia Win]

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