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RPGMaster2000

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Re: Obsession with the mini map

Forgive me if I am out of line, but if the Easter Contest is partially judged on map art, then the Easter Contest is contributing to the problem.

Naturally, it will help out in giving us a first impression. However, the biggest factor we're going to consider is of course the gameplay.

I can see where you're coming from though, and I do agree that focusing on the minimap has the potential to make the actual level look less desirable to play. I'll be sure to add a memo to make this a point to consider when judging the levels. It's not gonna be a super huge factor, but a factor nonetheless.

tokebot

Guest

Re: Obsession with the mini map

i agree in parts

the problem is:

all the new blocks don't represent a basic colour in both playscreen and minimap like the original 16colour palette.
i'd love to use the dark green of green keys but on the playscreen the are extremely bright so i don't
on the other hand, different people like different stuff. If somebody wants to make a nice picture on the minimap who am i to judge what's right or wrong. if they have fun pixeling that's great, i don't have to do it myself

jakery

Guest

Re: Obsession with the mini map

on the other hand, different people like different stuff. If somebody wants to make a nice picture on the minimap who am i to judge what's right or wrong. if they have fun pixeling that's great, i don't have to do it myself

Very good point, and I should mention that I'm not trying to dictate world design or inspire or an "Anti-Art Movement;" I'm just asking map makers to stop and think about what they want their worlds to become. I want to call attention to the downsides of map art that players might not have considered. I want to make sure that this community continues to evolve.

Last edited by jakery (Apr 13 2011 9:24:55 am)

BEE

Member

Joined: 2015-03-14

Posts: 1,679

Re: Obsession with the mini map

(Except for Bee, for making his art tutorial. )

[....]

Side note:

Forgive me if I am out of line, but if the Easter Contest is partially judged on map art, then the Easter Contest is contributing to the problem.

*her

And its only contributing to the problem if it is seen as a problem. I have yet to be convinced that it is a problem, let alone unaesthetically pleasing.

I honestly think smiley art is worse.

Last edited by BEE (Apr 13 2011 10:35:44 am)

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jakery

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Re: Obsession with the mini map

(Except for Bee, for making his art tutorial. )

*her

Fix'd.

RavaTroll

Member

From: France

Joined: 2015-02-16

Posts: 820

Re: Obsession with the mini map

So you don't like my levels, I guess.

But I agree, it'd be nice if chris can add blocks that looks like crowns/keys on the minimap, this would help a lot making levels good looking while you look at them in game.

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Trolls be in da place, mon !

Luck

Guest

Re: Obsession with the mini map

Looking at RavaTroll's signature, I want to play those levels. They give off a really good first impression and look amazing. I think the art and the levels should be balanced and it's not an 'obsession'. Would you prefer something that looks like random blocks on the minimap but insanely good challenges in your signature advertising a map or something that looks really nice and makes someone say 'Wow, that art is amazing, I think I'll go play it'?
It's all a matter of opinion, I suppose.

Shift

Guest

Re: Obsession with the mini map

Smiley art makes any level look really bad. So let's focus on the adventure levels. I have yet to see one adventure level with a good minimap look bad up close. They're either really good all around, okay all around, or terrible all around.

I seriously don't see how it's even possible to have a nice looking minimap and a bad looking level.

supadorf24

Member

Joined: 2015-02-26

Posts: 2,675

Re: Obsession with the mini map

I'm against levels that are purely art with no challenges. It's not fun for the player. When I go a level consisting of art and art only, I open up the minimap and leave shortly after. I think what some people don't realize, is that your level shouldn't go around your art, it should go within your art. Or at least that's my perspective.

Last edited by Supadorf24 (Apr 13 2011 3:01:12 pm)

Sansander97

Guest

Re: Obsession with the mini map

I'm against levels that are purely art with no challenges. It's not fun for the player. When I go a level consisting of art and art only, I open up the minimap and leave shortly after. I think what some people don't realize, is that your level shouldn't go around your art, it should go [i]within[i/] your art. Or at least that's my perspective.

I agree. If someone manages to geniusly combine Minimap art with highly thought out gameplay, that would be revolutionary. Some rooms use key doors to create the Minimap background while using the same color blocks.

BEE

Member

Joined: 2015-03-14

Posts: 1,679

Re: Obsession with the mini map

I'm against levels that are purely art with no challenges. It's not fun for the player. When I go a level consisting of art and art only, I open up the minimap and leave shortly after. I think what some people don't realize, is that your level shouldn't go around your art, it should go [i]within[i/] your art. Or at least that's my perspective.

I agree. If someone manages to geniusly combine Minimap art with highly thought out gameplay, that would be revolutionary. Some rooms use key doors to create the Minimap background while using the same color blocks.

You're AGAINST their existence? thats a bit harsh haha.

I prefer a combination, but can only make art myself.

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jakery

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Re: Obsession with the mini map

So you don't like my levels, I guess.

But I agree, it'd be nice if chris can add blocks that looks like crowns/keys on the minimap, this would help a lot making levels good looking while you look at them in game.

The images in your sig are gorgeous, and you should be very proud of them.
Now, is the actual level going to reflect the things I see in the mini map? Am I going to feel like my smiley is in a forest, or surrounded by a bunch of abstract shapes?

The answer: I don't know; I'll have to wait until I get home and try them out.

Someone on page 1 asked if I'd heard of French Impressionism. The answer is yes, I'm familiar with it, and this contributes to my point: The pictures look coherent from far away, but up close, they're random brush-strokes/blocks. The difference between French Impressionism and Everybody Edits is that EE players spend much more time looking at a level close up than from far away. That's why I put real world visuals over mini map art.

RavaTroll, I agree that it would help if certain map pixel colors could be represented by blocks that weren't keys and crowns.

BEE

Member

Joined: 2015-03-14

Posts: 1,679

Re: Obsession with the mini map

"The difference between French Impressionism and Everybody Edits is that EE players spend much more time looking at a level close up than from far away."

And if you are an artist you will be looking more at the paintings up close. Like I said, it depends on who your audience is.

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supadorf24

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Joined: 2015-02-26

Posts: 2,675

Re: Obsession with the mini map

You're AGAINST their existence? thats a bit harsh haha.

I prefer a combination, but can only make art myself.

I'm not against their existence; I just think they're boring. There should be something to do in a level. Also, I'd like to clarify something. When I say "within" art, I don't mean actually going inside of the art, I just mean you should be able to interact with the art (e.g. walk the plank, climb a tree, etc.).

jakery

Guest

Re: Obsession with the mini map

Last night I played RavaTroll's Secret HQ. I can tell you put enormous time and effort into the world, and it shows.

From the very start, I knew you thought out your world very carefully; Dropping from a helicopter into water was brilliant. You managed to make the forest feel like a forest both on the mini map and in the play screen, although those cursed key blocks started making big appearances. The arrows used to make the forest challenging also subtracted from the look.

At times, I still had to look at the mini map to understand what I was looking at on the main screen. Suddenly, when the forest ended and I couldn't get into the base because of the arrow wall, I didn't understand what the blocks in front of me were. Looking at the map I saw it was a giant tank, and the arrows were projectiles coming right at me.

At this point I turned into a little kid playing war, thinking, "Retreat!!" and had fun double-timing it back through the forest to the beach, and then to the deeper underwater passage.

You managed to create that kind of immersive atmosphere, which is rare.

There's no getting around the fact that sometimes the key/crown blocks just plain wreck the experience. When I came up in the submarine room, there was a giant field of crowns behind me. I pulled up the map and saw what your art was supposed to be: a stack of crates in the background. It looks perfect on the mini map. Extremely ugly on the play map.

Still, I'm confident in saying that you're one of the best at walking the line between map art and play art. What I'm taking away from playing RavaTroll's Secret HQ is stronger belief in something you already said:

But I agree, it'd be nice if chris can add blocks that looks like crowns/keys on the minimap, this would help a lot making levels good looking while you look at them in game.

You're forced to use keys/crowns because better blocks don't exist to accomplish your vision. Again, I hope that the developers provide us all with more blocks, sooner rather than later.

Last edited by jakery (Apr 14 2011 8:17:42 am)

tokebot

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Re: Obsession with the mini map

neat review, do me next

DK Levels

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Re: Obsession with the mini map

The prettier you try to make your art for the mini map, the uglier it looks on the play screen. Think about all the keys and crowns that litter your world just because they smooth out the edges of your map art. Think about all the large, seemingly random blobs and slopes that the players see just because they make a pretty picture when seen from far away.

An indirect side effect of the map art is arrows. The arrows don't show up on the mini map. However, if you try to make your art a playable part of the world, you usually need lots of arrows to allow the player to make progress. Large fields of arrows are ugly and abrasive, and they stand out like a sore thumb.

I'm desperately trying to stay away from map art, and instead focus on making the actual world look good. I almost never allow anyone to help build my maps anymore because most other players just want to draw art for the mini map.

I get that this is your opinion but I would have to disagree.
Especially with 'The prettier you try to make your art for the mini map, the uglier it looks on the play screen."
I see what you mean but this isn't necessarily true, it would depend on a challenge, and the actual art that its there.
Arrows and dots aren't really ugly, they are yellow so the player can see them and know where they are when , blocks and smileys are arround, basically so they stand out
The problem with EE is, you can't really make art seem like your in that place on the play screen, so you would have to go round it or something...

As rpg it basically helps to get a first impression, this works quite a lot because levels with good art tend to be extremely playable and fun, so In my opinion I think art for levels is good, the whole purpose of a minimap was to see where your going, where you are, etc Then it became about making art.
Playscreen art really does not matter to me, if it did I wouldn't be playing EE because all it would be blocks and stuff everywhere...
Basically I think art is really good to have in a level, because 1. It does give a good impression and indication of weather you want to play that level, in my case, block minigames bore me so much. Even if there is a good fun challenge in them they still bore me, its nothing special to draw a box.
2.It makes the level more versatile and playable, say your drawing a cave, and you have all these spikes, its so much better to do a minigame there because it has a really interesting shape to it.
I think art is partly what makes each level different, it doesn't matter weather its good or bad art wise, as long as its there for me, that is good, because for me art feels like your in an adventure, so you go on a different one each time, some are harder some are easier, where as blocks... Here i am. Jumping in some squares... fun.

RavaTroll

Member

From: France

Joined: 2015-02-16

Posts: 820

Re: Obsession with the mini map

Last night I played RavaTroll's Secret HQ. I can tell you put enormous time and effort into the world, and it shows.

From the very start, I knew you thought out your world very carefully; Dropping from a helicopter into water was brilliant. You managed to make the forest feel like a forest both on the mini map and in the play screen, although those cursed key blocks started making big appearances. The arrows used to make the forest challenging also subtracted from the look.

At times, I still had to look at the mini map to understand what I was looking at on the main screen. Suddenly, when the forest ended and I couldn't get into the base because of the arrow wall, I didn't understand what the blocks in front of me were. Looking at the map I saw it was a giant tank, and the arrows were projectiles coming right at me.

At this point I turned into a little kid playing war, thinking, "Retreat!!" and had fun double-timing it back through the forest to the beach, and then to the deeper underwater passage.

You managed to create that kind of immersive atmosphere, which is rare.

There's no getting around the fact that sometimes the key/crown blocks just plain wreck the experience. When I came up in the submarine room, there was a giant field of crowns behind me. I pulled up the map and saw what your art was supposed to be: a stack of crates in the background. It looks perfect on the mini map. Extremely ugly on the play map.

Still, I'm confident in saying that you're one of the best at walking the line between map art and play art. What I'm taking away from playing RavaTroll's Secret HQ is stronger belief in something you already said:

But I agree, it'd be nice if chris can add blocks that looks like crowns/keys on the minimap, this would help a lot making levels good looking while you look at them in game.

You're forced to use keys/crowns because better blocks don't exist to accomplish your vision. Again, I hope that the developers provide us all with more blocks, sooner rather than later.

Thanks for this awesome review !
I'm glad you felt exatly how you were supposed to felt.
Anyway, the submarine room was more a test than a place for minis. I tried to draw something "behind" the submarine. This was really funny, but the play map is indeed really weird and ugly.

It was an hard level to draw and design, and I still like the result, but I hope I'll have some stuff to improve it ( especially the play map, as you said ) and add minis more related to the minimap.

For example, I'd like to have people enter the "Villa" on top of the mountain, but they just can't.

I also have this problem while making a level with EX Crew. It's very difficult to have a nice looking level without adding crowns and keys everywhere. ( It even has become a private joke : I just "add crowns everywhere". )
Our last - and secret for now - level was quite challenging, but I think we managed to use other blocks than crowns. It really is difficult.

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Trolls be in da place, mon !

Shift

Guest

Re: Obsession with the mini map

Everything about this topic is just a matter of opinion, so please don't try to dictate what people can think, Jakery.

jakery

Guest

Re: Obsession with the mini map

I think the last straw that compelled me to post this topic was seeing a series of worlds that were filled head-to-toe with one gigantic 198x198 art image, and parts of it were "carved out" and players were expected to play inside the image. I don't know how that's supposed to be fun. Plus, now that we have programs that automatically convert an image to an EE world, it's not even impressive.

DK Levels, you have excellent points, and I think we can all agree that a map-art based level is much more original and inviting than a grid of stale minigames. Those and staircase levels have long worn out their welcome.

Everything about this topic is just a matter of opinion, so please don't try to dictate what people can think, Jakery.

Relax; We're just talking.

...I should mention that I'm not trying to dictate world design or inspire or an "Anti-Art Movement"...

Last edited by jakery (Apr 15 2011 9:15:29 am)

Gamer1120

Member

Joined: 2015-12-29

Posts: 2,659

Re: Obsession with the mini map

It's ravatroll's fault "dramatic silence"

No just kiddin, I'm often guilty of this myself.

MIHB

Guest

Re: Obsession with the mini map

So you don't like my levels, I guess.

But I agree, it'd be nice if chris can add blocks that looks like crowns/keys on the minimap, this would help a lot making levels good looking while you look at them in game.

The images in your sig are gorgeous, and you should be very proud of them.
Now, is the actual level going to reflect the things I see in the mini map? Am I going to feel like my smiley is in a forest, or surrounded by a bunch of abstract shapes?

The answer: I don't know; I'll have to wait until I get home and try them out.

You should play the EX Crew levels.   We tend to be fairly obsessive about appearance, and we don't like crowns n crap everywhere.   *Peers at Ravatroll suspiciously*

BEE

Member

Joined: 2015-03-14

Posts: 1,679

Re: Obsession with the mini map

It's ravatroll's fault "dramatic silence"

*agreed*

*blames ravatroll*

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gemmygem

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Re: Obsession with the mini map

jakery, I wasnt really paying attention to the question, but that sig is rly funny!

Pawlowic

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Re: Obsession with the mini map

I agree jakery,black block challenges ruin the level!